http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/200441/hamilton

Feeling teased (what? no real RECIPES?????), I googled BIM and finally found a link to the actual booklet/recipes:

http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A3=ind0307&L=sanet-mg&P=599129&E=2&B=------%3D_NextPart_000_2be4_2499_6525&N=Indigenous+Microorganisms+Boolet.doc&T=application%2Fmsword

Not only that, I ended up with VISUALS when I went to this site:

http://www.janong.com/ENGLISH/04.htm

My favorite visual on this last site was the picture of the guy sticking the rod down into the dirt...5' or so...the description of how using the different concoctions for the microorganisms, plus earthworms for tillage, makes the soil "inflate like a balloon" and you can "slide your hand in like it is cake".

I'm swooning at the thought.

The other exciting thing was reading in the first two articles about ferementing different types of plants for specific bionutrients to enhance flowering, fruiting and growth.

Perhaps there IS a use for KUDZU after all...

Upon further research...(I'm not a microbiologist but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night... ;-) I've found another interesting site on bokashi composting with BIM and newspaper, none of the bran and expensive EMs and with pictures of how the Lactobacillus is supposed to look at different stages (be sure and read all the comments...). Since I'm such a visual person, this really helped A LOT.

http://bokashicomposting.com/

Best of all, though, in the comments in the above post was an easy way to get the LB from yogurt, which is to strain it like you're making lebnah or yocheese and saving the whey! HOLY MOTHER NATURE!!!! Since I've just learned to make yogurt, I'm jumping up and down at this!

And then I located THIS site for this mix of stuff. GEEZE, get me to the beach...SOON! On the link below, scroll down to the information that is in the FERMENTED FOODS section, just after the two references to kimchi.

http://www.mail-archive.com/bdnow@envirolink.org/msg06378.html

May all our cauliflower look like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/atobelen/2264081287/in/set-72157605169533482/

He's an EM user....

Well, we just put up our first batch of BIM yesterday and I must admit the aroma of some of those brews have tested our organic commitment over here. I have to tell you some of the smells emitted still have my eyeballs rolling in two different directions. Making this stuff is not for the faint of heart or weak of stomach to say the least.

Some of the brews were not that bad; Pear BIM can be tolerated, but Cabbage BIM is to be avoided at all costs, I don’t care if it makes vegetables grow into the Stratosphere. Potato BIM is "iffy" smell wise, but real ugly to look at, and the Rice BIM is not that bad save the milk odor. I still have to make some kind of Melon BIM, as well as Tomato BIM. Lets just say I can’t wait for those as well as Squash BIM. I too made a bucket of Kudzu BIM, but that was just made today so no smell report yet.

I did drench the potatoes I planted last week or so with the Potato BIM, they broke ground the next day. As soon as the moon is right (it’s a southern thing) I will start getting the beds ready and give them all a good spray before I plant next month (after Good Friday, again another southern thing). I too have made two bins of compost and sprayed them with Lactose BIM; the smoke is coming out both of those rascals as they cook right now.

The only real issue is where to store all the jugs. They will NOT be living in the shed or the barn, and I know that for a fact! I am beginning to feel like "Snuffy Smith", looking for the revenuers to come busting out the woods at any moment. The crazy thing is that I am having a ball doing all this; I may get a "gold seal" on my wacko certificate before all is said and done with this one…

Blutranes

(It seems like making a bew of potato eating bacteria would be less then helpful when sprayed on the potatoes?)

You've really gone the extra mile with concocting BIMS for each kind of plant! Since I've not planted potatoes, having them break ground the next day is unusual?

Please tell us more of what you did...did you ferment potato sprouts? pieces of potato? Did you use molasses or raw sugar? How long did you soak your potatoes before planting?

The translation of that long piece on the BIMS and the mixtures leaves something to be desired so I seemed to get the idea that mixing molasses with some of these things would provide food/cut smells...or maybe I got that confused with the lactic acid BIMs. Between reading that and the translation of the Ovsinsky piece, all I can say is "whew..."

Have you tried any winter sowing? Just wondering if that is a way to get around the moon phasing Good Friday "southern thang." I've only been reading that forum in the last few weeks. Intriguing.

Annubis, I know what you mean... It seems the BIM piece is talking about something (in some places) that is a combo lactic acid/BIM from fermentation mix.

I know I won't be trying cabbage.

I'm curious to know more about what you did for potatoes too.

I haven't yet, but will be making some rice wash to culture LB and then using the cooked rice to catch some BIM from a field nearby. I'm going to innoculate my raised beds, cp's and lawn w/ these.

No, I just cut the spuds and planted them. They took so long to break ground I thought they had rot in the ground. I poured Potato BIM on the rows and out they came. I planted potatoes because the moon was right at the time, plus potatoes can handle a frost if it comes late (and it does every year, thus the Good Friday rule). The only thing I am going to do different this year is use BIM at critical growing phases during the season.

The translation of that long piece on the BIMS and the mixtures leaves something to be desired

I am going to keep this as simple as possible for those who are having a problem with all the rhetoric that all the links provide. I first had to realize that the people who use this technique don’t have access to big box stores or feed mills, thus they are using what they have at hand (we happen to call it organic gardening). If we do the same making BIM is as easy as making compost (ok, bad example but you get the idea).

I took some seed potatoes left from last year, cut them in quarters, and then placed them in a 5-gallon bucket. I added enough water to the bucket to cover the potatoes about an inch over the stack and covered them with a loose fitting lid. I let them sit until I saw mold growing on the top (a little over a week due to cool temperatures). I then added a half-gallon of water, two cups of feed molasses, stirred the mix, and then replaced the lid. One week later I took the resulting brew, strained it through cheesecloth into gallon jugs and stored them. The hardest part is waiting and smelling the end product. To use the brew I took two (2) tablespoons of the brew and added it to one (1) gallon of water and then watered the potato rows. I followed the same procedure when making the pear, cabbage, and kudzu brew. Like I said, the smell will separate the wheat from the chafe.

To make the lactose BIM, instead of adding water once the mold has formed is to add milk. The curd will come to the top, strain that out of the brew and store. I also plan on making fish, banana, seaweed, grits, and okra BIM. Also, I have used "cane syrup" instead of molasses in two of the brews; only because a neighbor gave me a gallon of the syrup he found in his crib (made in 1966 by his dad; it was as fresh as the day it was bottled).

Anubis asked:

It seems like making a brew of potato eating bacteria would be less then helpful when sprayed on the potatoes?

You are right; skimming over material can cause lack of understanding. Over here, organic food doesn’t "rot", it dehydrates. Plants are no more in danger of being eaten than they are when being placed in compost-amended soil to grow. The link below has a section called "Plant Specific Microorganism"; it may help to look at that section closer for a better understanding IMO.

Foliar feeding of plants with BIM should not be a hard process IMO. I do my best to keep it simple, use what I have on hand, and then let nature do what it does. The rest as they say, is in the hands of the revenuers…

Blutranes

Thanks for the simplified explanation. I've still got my eleagnus stuff sitting on my counter...covered with lots of mold. I will do the adding of the water/molasses/straining of it today and then let sit some more. My goal is trying to extract the "quick grow" BIMS that might be used generically.

Penny

Putting it in terms of compost makes perfect sense I just hadn't made that connection.

Is there an optimum time to collect the LA bacteria from the air? Here in the north the temps might not be warm enough even in high summer. Since we eat brown rice probably twice a week I won't have a problem getting rice wash water so will try it and maybe keep it in the garage.

Another thought - is this what happens when one makes alfalfa tea? When stirred the LA bacteria in the air might go into the alfalfa water. Would adding molasses to this improve it?

Thanks for posting that link Blutranes, I've read it before but am beginning to "get" it more each time.

Where it mentions using a mix of plants I wondered if one could just use the regular kitchen veggie scraps and ferment them?

Would making a BIM extract from chopped garlic help garlic to grow faster than using one made from rice wash?

So many questions and I'm not really expecting answers but I think there may be some experiments with "stinky water" going on here at the ranch this year!

"My goal is trying to extract the "quick grow" BIMS that might be used generically.

If that is the case there are certain plants you may want to use to make BIM:

*Alfalfa
*Bamboo
*Squash
*Melon
*Okra
*Kudzu
*Cucumber
*Grass (for those wanting a thick, green, lush lawn)

The generics that cause the fast growth of a plant can be "captured" in the BIM solution and then transferred to the plant one wishes to benefit from those organisms that possess enhanced growth naturally.

Anubis said:

"Putting it in terms of compost makes perfect sense I just hadn't made that connection.

I couldn’t have said it better myself Anubis, it has to make sense before I put it into action. A lot of what we share around here has to connect; once it does a lot of information makes all the sense in the world IMO. Dogma and common sense should go hand in hand, but a lot of times it doesn’t. This is the reason I do my best to leave dogma out of the conversation; dogma only clouds ones message and can cut off the open-minded state so important when sharing information.

Luckygal said:

"So many questions and I'm not really expecting answers but…

We are here to provide answers are we not? I am thinking LB BIM should always be in the air, the problem is temperature to promote fermentation. As long as the temp is right, we can make BIM from anything organic we desire.

As it relates to alfalfa tea, I am sure you are on the right track. The only thing missing is the "sugar" source (I know the smell factor is present and accounted for). Adding sugar and time to the process should give one the benefit one is looking for. And too, your idea about fermenting kitchen scraps makes sense to me; adding them to a compost pile generates microbes into action, why not a BIM "cocktail"? My feeling is that the only limit to this technology is the willingness of the gardener to put a good idea into action. As long as we respect the law of "the powerful little" we should be on safe ground IMO.

"Would making a BIM extract from chopped garlic help garlic to grow faster than using one made from rice wash?

IMO, yes. Any plant should be able to be used for making BIM; of course there may be some exceptions, but I am not finding any that come to mind right now. Even some of the "weeds" we curse on a regular basis could be used to extract BIM; all of a sudden just about everything organic has a different value, does it not?

The frugal lifestyle of people in one part of the world can be a "boom-time" for those of us who enjoy access to an abundant supply of gardening materials. BIM and other gardening techniques have been around a long time. IMO, we should have enough sense to make use of them in a responsible and productive way. Making better the process of growing healthy, nutritionally rich food is an honorable goal IMO; we deserve that and even more…

Blutranes

You can drain plain live culture yogurt to get the whey for your LB! See below..

You end up with LB AND some tasty yocheese!

From the original article with the "recipes", it seems that garlic is used (in conjunction with ginger) as an anti-fungal/antibiotic for plants and animals but is made a bit differently:

"Ginger-Garlic Extract
The original recipe of the natural farmers of Korea use not only the ginger and garlic materials, but also Chinese herbs like Angelica acutiloba, Glycurrhiza uralensis and Cinnamomum loureirii. These Chinese herbs have one basic common denominator, they are good for digestion. We have used simply equal amount of ginger and garlic, less these Chinese herbs. This is our natural antibiotics we use for plants and animals. Remember the high level of sulfur on garlic? It is a good fungicide. The ginger-garlic extract is quite different from the plant extracts we have discussed. We soak the chopped up ginger and garlic in beer or wine overnight or 12 hours. Then we add 1/3 crude sugar and let it ferment for a couple of days like 5-7 days. They we add alcohol which stabilizes and arrests fermentation. The alcohol should be at least 40% proof. The active ingredients of the ginger and garlic is extracted in finale with the use of alcohol similar to herbal tincture we are familiar with in homeopathy. Remember that ginger and garlic are highly medicinal and highly nutritious. We have used them as natural antibiotics and in preventive medicine. We have used this concoction on chicks and chickens and have made them healthy throughout. Of course, we also use them when we see animal weakening and when they are sick. We have used them on fungal problems of plants. We have used them for rheumatism. The uses are enormous both for plants and animals."

That's not to say you couldn't mix it with other things for different kinds of BIM.

From the description above it seems they:
1. Chop garlic and ginger.
2. Cover with wine or beer for 12 hours/overnight.
3. Add 1/3 volume of crude sugar. (I wonder if one could sub an equal amount of molasses at this step, similar to the other directions in the original article?)
4. Let sit for 5-7 days.
5. Add 40proof or more alcohol to stop fermentation.

If following regular tincture making, the alcohol would cover the "mix", be stored in a dark place (quart jar in a paper bag could work, or in a cabinet), would be shaken every day for about two more weeks, drained and then stored in dark glass colored bottles or in a dark place.

So, my next "wondering" would be, after adding the 40proof alcohol, would one NEED to let the mix sit as long as two weeks?

Then, only drops of if would be needed to add to water or other BIM mixes. (Again, basing this on regular tincture making and use.)

And please forgive if my listing steps seems redundant after posting the actual recipe. It was to help me make sense of it.

" I wonder if one could sub an equal amount of molasses at this step, similar to the other directions in the original article?

I am sure any crude sugar source (not processed) could be used; my understanding is that white processed sugar is a "no-no". I have been on the lookout for any crude sugar source I can find (frugal is a good thing?).

The Ginger-Garlic extract is one of the BIM products I am really excited about. the ability to control some of the insects that come off the fields we lease, along with the nutritional value of ginger-garlic extracts is something we can do around here. If they are effective on "Glasshoppers" the heat will be on!

Another use of BIM I am going to try is soaking biochar (charcoal) in different BIM, LB to be sure. Also, checking some of the nutritional values found in different fruits/vegetables only expands the shopping list of possible extracts (see link below). This may be the icing on the cake some speak of around here…

Blutranes

I am forced to agree with you a bit. I do tend to make simple things too complex. My grandmother would say "She likes to 'make work'." My husband would be nodding in agreement if he was reading over my shoulder right now.

I'll let Bluetranes speak for himself... ;-)

What I don't understand is that if LA is used to diminish odors why does this type of BIM smell so bad? Wonder what would happen if I added a quart of live culture yogurt and some molasses to 5 gallons of alfalfa tea - would it change the odor?

Another curiosity - if one were to ferment a weed such as dandelions would that cause them to grow to outstanding sizes. Gonna make my weeding even more arduous if I do that altho they might taste better.

Blutranes, that's a good idea to soak the charcoal in the BIM. Another experiment to do.

Idaho Gardener, that's what I'm going to do as I'm not too concerned about any one particular crop this year. I just want to increase the fertility of my soil for everything. I'm planning to try different things, after all I've made stinky water and alfalfa tea before so this is just a continuation of my "hobby"! LOL

If you take some LB BIM and mix it into cabbage BIM the cabbage BIM will no longer stink to high heaven. Also, if you take some LB BIM and soak charcoal/biochar in it the charcoal/biochar will become much softer in my recent experience. Finally, if you mix LB BIM with Bug Juice according to the mixture rates, and then water your young potato plants, said potato plants will show their appreciation by growing larger IMO.

Needless to say, we like BIM over here very much…

Blutranes

Ok, here's the plan. We go to wherever they're handing out the 1,000,000.00 + "stimulus,bailout,tarp,WHATEVER" (for the hog farm study) dollars, tell them we've got JUST THE THING for removing HOG FARM ODORS, capture LB from the air, milk a few cows, make LB, spray the hog farm, pocket the profits (should be mighty) and then all go vacation where the terra preta is.

Anyone? Anyone?

Was it the undiluted LB or the diluted (2-4 T: 1 gal water)?

Interesting article in our paper today...such an interest in food growing that one of our local co-ops has sold 7,000 lbs of seed potatoes this year compared with 3-4K lbs last year.

This was after the ridiculous paper yesterday that was "sharing" the joys of having a closet so wonderful that the young matron had "the perfect place" for her Hermes purses (cost 6,500-1,100 EACH) RIGHT NEXT to an article that talked about seed swapping...opening sentence:

A flower garden may seem like a frivolous expense in these tough economic times....."

Sorry, just needed to vent...

I used 1/8 cup of LB BIM pure to one gallon of cabbage BIM, shook it up a little and took a whiff; instant satisfaction to my nose. For the plants I used ¼ cup to 5-gallons of water, pouring 1-pint per plant. I will foliar spray the plants next week.

Your plan may not get a "simulative" response to your idea, but I am sure it would work. You got a "plan B"…

Blutranes

When you're making Bug Juice and letting it sit out for the week, is it tightly covered? loosely covered, covered with cloth? uncovered?

Thanks,
Penny

My goal from all this is to create "Zymogenic-Synthetic" soil. Once this is achieved the need for organic matter additions will be even less than I am using now. Those just learning about this soil may enjoy knowing that, if desired, can be accomplished in a season or two depending on where one is organically as it relates to ones soil. Just something you may want to look into...

Blutranes

BTW, you are very welcome as well

I've been reading on the subject as want to learn as much as possible and found the site I've posted below which says in several places "If it has a sour and rotten smell, it is failure." Now, I had gotten the idea that this stuff was pretty odorous as alfalfa tea is known to be. Can anyone clarify?

"I had gotten the idea that this stuff was pretty odorous as alfalfa tea is known to be."

I was under the same assumption when this all started Luckygal, but something didn’t make sense. The cabbage was the only brew that smelled bad, why did the others smell so sweet? Could it be the outside temperature when I made the brews, it was pretty chilly when I made the cabbage? But the pear and rice didn’t smell bad, what was missing? It occurred to me when I read your question; it had to be the sugar. I didn’t add any sugar to the cabbage before I made the batch; pear was already sweet, the rice had sugar once the milk was added.

I have alfalfa, kelp, potato, rice, and kudzu brewing now; all of them have sugar added (except the rice). So I went outside to put the nose to them to see how they smelled; they all have a sweet smell including the alfalfa. There is mold growing on top of all the brews, so I know they are fermenting like they should. Also I have read the each should have a film over the top of each batch, and each has that including all the brews I had made before (including the cabbage). The only thing left to do is make another batch of cabbage with added sugar to see if this is true. In the Bug Juice rotten fruit is used, it has always smelled sweet and alcoholic; to me this is normal. It would appear all these brews are the same thing (save yeast in Bug Juice, but BIM/EM makes its own yeast), just created in a different manner and with different ingredients. But in the end, they all provide the same function on the plants; it is great fertilizer and soil builder.

Another thing that needs clarification is the use of containers. In the earlier threads Penny shared (BIM) they say to use glass as a vessel, in the EM they are saying to use plastic because the vessels will explode if not allowed to let gas escape. I have been using glass, thus I also checked to see if any pressure had built up in the bottles; IT HAS! Again, the white mold film is also on the top of each bottle (as described) so I know they are storing correctly. If glass bottles are used I would suggest not using tops that will not allow gas to escape for obvious safety reasons.

Finally, I have used the brews on one of my peach trees, as well as the tree of one of my friends, and a plum tree of another friend. They all have blooms on them that are outperforming all other trees in the area. The blooms are larger, of a deeper color, and are attracting bees in each case. This is some great stuff IMO. None of us has used any other fertilizer on the trees, just the brews. Once all the beds are cleaned I plan on spraying each of them before planting, then using the brews weekly as suggested from my readings.

Luckygal, there is still the charcoal/biochar issue as well. I have read some EM users are adding charcoal as well as sea salt to their brews. There are many differences in the BIM-vs-EM technique (BIM appears to be more renegade in my view), so there is that issue to sift through. If we stick together we should get to the bottom of all this and end up with something to behold…

Blutranes

Did you aerate the LB after the initial fermentation? Seperate the milk solids from the clear liquid that is LB and then aerate that to increase the amount? I've wondered about doing that, it sounds like maybe you have already.

RJ

Can I really make the EM5 using LB as the EM1? This sounds like what Bluetranes is doing. Am I correct BT? I have LB ready to add milk, and would like to get some EM5 started right away if it'll work.

from living soil

''Rice bran, corn bran, wheatbran, maize flour, rice husk, bean husk, rice straw, oil cake cotton seed cake, pressmud, bagasse,chopped weeds, sawdust. coconut fiber and husks. crop residues such as empty fruit bunches in oil palm, fish meal. bone meal. dung of any animals, kitchen garbage, sea weed. crab shells and similar material.

However, rice bran is recommended as an important ingredient of Bokashi, as it contains excellent nutrients for microorganisms. It is desirable to combine organic matter which have low and high C/N ratios. Generally the use of at least three types of organic matter is recommended in order to increase microbial diversity.''

"Did you aerate the LB after the initial fermentation?

No RJ, I left the LB in a fermentation state as instructed from the web pages on BIM. I understand that we want to blend/mix both the fermented BIM with aerobic microbes found in the soil/compost. Together they work together to produce a more fertile soil. Once the milk is added to the rice I let it set until the milk solids separated and then screened off the solids to get the resulting liquid. This liquid can then be blended with a raw sugar source to help in storage, or you can refrigerate the liquid to keep it from spoiling. I use molasses due to the fact that I don’t have a refrigerator in my work area yet.

The goal in using BIM/EM is for them to remain fermented; they have a specific function in the soil, just as aerobic bacteria have a specific function in the soil. What has been discovered it that together (aerobic/fermented) bacteria/fungi enhance the soil fertility and health for a extended period of time; so much so that additions are not required unless the soil is exposed to drought or flood. Of course this is contrary to what we have been practicing and thus the lack of (mass) input from the community…

Blutranes

"I use molasses due to the fact that I don’t have a refrigerator in my work area yet."

What amount did you use? In the original BIM piece, I read it as 1/3 amount of LB (or other plant "mash") if using a raw sugar source or equal amount in volume of LB(fruit mash) if using molasses. I measured my LB (from yogurt whey) and used equal molasses. Just wanting to know if we're on same page. I have read it a gazillion times and still can't settle on what is correct, or what I think is correct. Perhaps this is due to another direction that reads (paraphrased).."Wait a couple of days, like 5-7 days".. Hmmm, 2? 5? 6? 7?

On Bug Juice...have mashed my apples (didn't have overly ripe so used what I had) and am making the yeast/warm water/sugar/flour mix. Waiting for it to stop "foaming" as stated in directions. In your experience, how long has this taken (foam stopping)? I know the second part of the yeast process takes two hours before mixing it in with the other stuff.

RJ, I'm thinking EM1 has more than just LB. When I read that I got the notion that it had yeasts, fungi, and other things. I think this is why I was wondering if using kefir (like the first batch which supposedly isn't so good sometimes) would be like a super boost since it has LOTS more LB strains, along with some yeasts.

As always, many thanks...
Penny

What amount did you use?

I used ¼ cup of molasses in ½ gallon water. The LB was in 2 (two) gallons of water in a bucket. You are going to have to trust your feelings on this one Penny; as with most things organic, looking for exact measurements are going to be frustrating (note your example).

In your experience, how long has this taken (foam stopping)?

About an hour depending on how hot the water was and hot warm the room was. Again, they are not going to react like things in a "cook book", we are going to defer to "it depends". You will know when it is done; the foam will start to clear on the top of the bowl.

RJ, I'm thinking EM1 has more than just LB.

It does, but LB is the main ingredient; the good doctor is being very vague on exactly what EM1 really is. This is why I said BIM is renegade, that man holds nothing back (although he is not very specific). The good news is that if one reads between the lines it is easy to figure out what is in EM1 (or pretty close to what is). Using the link below start at:

"CLASSIFICATION OF SOILS BASED ON THEIR MICROBIOLOGICAL PROPERTIES"

Read to the end of the conclusion, one should be able to put it all together from there. Also, the link Luckygal provided has a bunch of clues in it as well.

Like I said, we are going to have to put the pieces of this "puppy" together or get busy buying some EM1. I am with the renegade (Carandang); it ain’t all that hard to see what he (Dr. Higa) is up too…

Blutranes

Is more really better?

No, the idea is not to use "more"; the idea is to mix. Bug Juice is ACT; once the ingredients are blended, one is to add compost (for you worm castings) and make your brew. The Bug Juice will multiply the microorganisms in the compost at a fantastic rate. Once added to the soil the juice will continue to feed the soil food web within the soil. The fermented BIM will feed/react to a different food source within the soil and feed the plant. What they have found is that combined (ACT/BIM) the reaction and fertility of the soil will be such that the plant will be in an environment of maximum fertility. All soil borne diseases will be outperformed for nutrients, the results being a healthy soil.

The above is what EM1 really is, a mixture of fermented and aerobic microorganisms (and food stock) that will feed the plant and coexist within the soil. Fermented nutrients, nutrients fixed from the air (nitrogen), and nutrients from compost are consumed and fed to the plant. Add to that the dynamics of compost/humus added to the soil when you amend the soil results into soil that needs less amending as long as the organisms are not destroyed. Biochar offers long-term moisture and nutrient holding characteristics. This is why "Terra Preta" is such a dynamic soil; the native people discovered how to amend soil with both fermented as well as aerobic microbes, and a way to hold nutrients without the soil washing away during the rainy season.

All this sounds like a lot of work; however, so did learning how to mix "browns and greens" with the right amount of moisture to make "hot" compost. Some still haven’t figured out how to do that yet…

Blutranes

" My real question is would I want to add LB to my tea or use it as a separate soil drench. I'm just wondering how the ACT reacts to the addition of the LB."

Oh, sorry Rj, I misunderstood what you were saying. I have been doing both, depending on which I feel like dealing with. My logic says there is air in the soil; if LB can survive in the soil it should survive in a bucket of ACT. From the last link I provided:

" The processes of putrefaction, fermentation, and synthesis proceed simultaneously according to the appropriate types and numbers of microorganisms that are present in the soil."

So all this is going on at the same time; in reality this is exactly what we are looking for. And too, when I am using a "bionutrients" I am not adding ACT to the mix, however there are going to be ACT microbes active in the soil. This is what "Zymogenic and Synthetic soil is; soil that can handle both types of microorganisms.

Your logic in wanting to not have to make two different brews for the soil is correct IMO…

Blutranes

LB are used in making silage. It conserves the hay for a long time and increase nutritious quality of the grass. My opinion is that it is lacto acid that prevents grass from spoiling in anaerobic conditions when it is covered with something. The same result can be obtained using vinegar. Harmful organisms (as well as many beneficials like nitrogen-fixing bacterias) simply don’t survive in acid medium. It’s not good for normal soil I think. Higa writes about soils where the level of water is up to one's knees, extremly anaerobic. Did you ever seen how the rice is growing? Think about the rice fields when you think about Hida’s theories. That is where they took rice grains for making BIMs!

Summary: For the purpose of gardening, LB are good for conservation of OM (with high N) if you have a lot of it and you have no a lot of "browns" (with high C) or time to make ordinary compost. Making anaerobic compost demands special knowledge. There is a sense to learn it if you have a lot of organic wastes (and time to learn).

Way too many fun things to think about there, especially the raised goat pen.

Sigh.

I see you take issue with children too; we welcome children in our garden, we do not view them as organisms, but something to cherish and love. Teaching them to love nature, how to grow and protect the earth, and to take pride in knowing how to do something other than play video games or drink vodka is one of many virtues we enjoy. Children are our treasure; sorry to see you have such a low opinion of them.

As it relates to milk, maybe you should have waited until after brewing your ACT before adding the milk to your tea. Here in the southern USA we have a terrible problem with powdery mildew, most folks can¤Ô¤±¤Í¤½ grow squash, melons, or cucumbers due to the air borne disease. Learning how to use milk to keep it at bay has been a great blessing; those who have learned how to use milk enjoy that benefit as well as the nitrogen milk provides. Again, I suppose it depends on weather you view using milk as an affront to something, we don¤Ô¤±¤Í¤½ have that problem over here.

You may want to take another look at BIM/EM and other techniques that weren¤Ô¤±¤Í¤½ "borrowed" from other cultures. Contrary to what you have stated they do enjoy eating foods other than rice (see link below). Nor do they all wear glasses, wear funny hats, practice Kung Fu, or use carts for transportation. Indeed, they have much to offer, manners not being the least of these.

To each his own I suppose; however, I choose to not close doors based on some preconceived notion. It makes life something to smile about�

Blutranes

I have nothing against children. As for the children in the garden, they may be either beneficials or pests depending on do they under the control of adults? (Friendly, it’s a joke from me about children-pests. lol. We also love them no less than you or at least equally.)

If CT is aerated then milk shall not sour. It is my fact. I brewed CT 1 day and then added milk and continued brewing 1 day more. It smell like a cake and therefore have no LB but probably have yeasts. I don’t think this make CT better. Using milk separately against mildew is really good thing and we use it also, no problem with morality (we are not as poor as you may be think).

As for EM I just stated it is good for anaerobic soils (rice fields) where organic matter has tendency to the harmful decomposition. Gas methane CH4 is released in abundance in such soils. Addition of EM (LB primarily) conserve OM from volatilization. And EM increasy acidity of the soil. May be it good for the rice and no good for other plants. But I have nothing against EM also. Someone will try and have fun.

Keep on smiling, gravity is a sign of dementia! :)

Vah-Larry

I am excited to have found pictures of someone experimenting with kefir whey (could just as easily be yogurt whey) on plants. WOW, what a difference. I'm looking forward to some similar experiments here.

This just reinforces what Blutranes has already seen with his LB brews!

Penny, I am convinced of the benefits of LA and the pics of those 2 fig plants is good evidence. I think I previously mentioned I used it for our lambs and calves and had almost no problems with scours. So I look forward to improving my soil using these methods.

Looking forward to more info on this topic and even more links! ;-)

I know, it is all so overwhelming to a non-scientific type like me. But, SO FUN!!!

I decided to print out the Gil Carandang piece (and I wish I knew how to make a link out of his name so it would be easier for other readers new to this or just as overwhelmed)
and do what I used to do in college..type out a summary of each thing "recipe" so I can understand easier.

I've also got to dig back through those links because it seems there was something about the best time of day to apply BIM/LB (early a.m. for foliar feeds, I know) but about not even doing LB as a drench or compost spray during sunny periods so they would have a chance to "bury" down a bit and not be killed off.

Ha, I'm reminded of the strange little man with the magic green crystals in JAMES AND THE GIANT PEACH. I have become that strange little man....oops, strange little woman.

I was at the doc today and got an anitbiotic and a probiotic, the pro is LB! I eat lots of yogurt any way, but just thought it was interesting.

"So from what I've read from all the links in this thread, LB is the same or similar to EM1?

While looking deeper into all this I ran across this web page linked below. On the page they list all the ingredients in EM1 as well as may other links chalked full of information. Apparently EM1 is mostly LB BIM with other organisms (nitrogen fixing bacteria found in mature compost) and yeasts. It doesn’t appear to be that hard to duplicate at home.

Also, further down the page is a discussion (and links) to information concerning fermenting worm compost. Apparently India is the vermicompost capital of the world. They provide many links to sites you may be interested in. I have a worm drum with an abundant amount of liquid available for use; the insight provided is most valuable.

I plan on posting pictures of the potatoes I planted last month that have been getting BIM as well as Bug Juice later today. I want to get some pictures of my cousins’ potatoes to compare to what not using organic techniques provides. This is beginning to get interesting…

Blutranes

Time to get the tea brewer out, I think it may be going all summer w/ all the different Ideas I want to try. I'm thinking it might be best not to throw all of them in at once, but foliar feed w/ them and soil drench at different times.

My situation is that I am planning a new garden with heavy clay soil and not much else. It's an area of forest we've partially cleared where my new garden house and labyrinth will be and I want some flower beds and eventually veggie beds as well when the soil improves. Hope to use whatever animal manures and veggie compostables I can scrounge, fine wood shavings, and these fermented juices to turn this into a good growing medium. The other prime ingredient in this will be biochar as we still have some burning to do so I may as well try for charcoal as ashes.

Can't imagine where this plan would be if I'd never heard all these good ideas from you guys! I'd probably have thot I had to haul in loads of topsoil. Much prefer this more natural "mad scientist-ish" approach. ;-)

Can any one help me? my math is bad. The first dilution is 1:20, next four tablespoons = 1/4C = 2oz. That would make for 1/64 of a gallon. If I have a 2gal sprayer, how much would I need from the pure culture I'm keeping in the fridge?

1/4 cup (4 T) to 1 gal non chlorinated water
1/2 cup (8 T) tp 2 gal non cholorinated water

Hope someone will check this, I'm still figuring out what vessels to make this stuff in. I had 40 gallons of stinky alfalfa tea brewing last year and DH is tolerant but thot it was REALLY stinky stuff! LOL

So, you're just going to add the serum/whey straight to the water, no molasses/sugar?

Makes sense....and I would think either 1.5tsp per 2gal would still work or 1t in a little less than 2gal..just to make measuring easier.

Which then leads one to think of the possibility of making a small jar of a combo of the concentrated things (should one wish) for storage in the fridge.

Hmmmmm, fingers tapping chin.....

I came home and strained my rice wash and added the milk. I had 6 cups of brew, would have needed 3.75 gallons of milk, yikes! I used 2 cups skim, 2 cups powder, and 1 can evaporated, hmmm.... fingers crossed. I know it's not enough, and not sure about the stabilizers in the evaporated milk but it's done. It sure didn't smell sweet, not bad, but not sweet by any means. I hope it gets better in a week.

I also filled the tea brewer w/ rain water, 4C sifted compost, 2C sifted vermicompost, 1/4 cup rich earth, and a little lb.

I feel I can now venture into this weird science a little more confidently. I'm willing to try it, because I really appreciate and see the value of the work of those who have gone before and also because I want to help myself grow the finest crops I can. In the best soil.

Thank you, all of you.
Sunny

I can't wait to see Blutranes pix of his veggies vs his cousin's non organic beds!

On another forum on gardenweb, someone asked "WHY Gardenweb?" "Why not another site with more bells and whistles?"

I think the answer is right here in this (among tons of other) thread(s). Questions, answers, experiments, experience,patience, and humor all shared freely, among friends. How great is that????

Penny

This is how much his has progressed:

This is mine:

I rest my case…

Blutranes

The fridge at work got cleaned out and I scored almost 2 gal of milk for my LB I screened yesterday. Should get it up to the recommended amount. Also scored a bunch of other stuff for the CP.

I ran out of my rainwater yesterday and have just poured some whey off my yogurt and would like to try the RJ method of concentrated LB into water. (I probably have 1 T or more, or enough for 4 gallons of water.)

Wonder if the aquasafe will mess with the LB?

Maybe I should aquasafe the water in a 5 gal bucket and let it sit outside for a day? Hmmmmm

You are very welcome, thanks for the compliment. If it were me Rj, I would use Bug Juice on the compost; it is designed for that as well as for plants. For me, the juice has brought the smoke out of a pile quicker and longer than any other inoculants I have used. And too, the statement by the scientist that designed the juice that plants will have a "long life" is being modest IMO; I have had to pull plants with fruit still growing on them just to get them out the way. Also remember, I have never used BIM on compost, so what results you will get from using BIM is unknown to me.

Penny said:

" And, why are some people just so HARD HEADED?

I dunno Penny, but you know what they say, "it makes a soft bottom" (being kind). I took my cousin 1 (one)-gallon of Potato BIM and gave him instructions on how to use it. After seeing my potatoes he just had this real funny look on his face (like he had to go to the bathroom really bad), and said "gimme some of that plant whiskey". I can’t wait until I get all my watermelons in the ground; all I want is big, sweet, juicy, nutritious, tasty, and heavy watermelons. I (kinda sorta) promise I might not ask for anything more.

Valeria RU said:

" I suppose it is a compost with charcoal?"

Oh yes, all my compost has charcoal in it. But, that is not compost; that is the mulch I was speaking of earlier. It is a blend of leaf mold, charcoal, and mature compost. My compost is a lot darker than that. Tiffy gave me the idea earlier this year to blend the mulch; we will see how it holds up in this intense sun.

Again, thanks everyone. I must admit most of what I have learned about organic gardening has been obtained here on this forum, or comments made have motivated me to dig deeper and take it a step further. IMO, taking the best of the past, combining it with what we are learning today, and being open-minded enough to allow myself the privilege to think about what I have learned could only lead to the person this community has taught me to be. Thank you all very much…

Blutranes

For the record (and I hope I've not made a mistake), I also threw in some alfalfa and fish emulsion, along with the blood meal. It was pretty stinky, even then. I poured some of my concentrated LB in (LB+molasses)....no smell today.

Needless to say your juice is going to be very concentrated with nitrogen, something to keep in mind when you are using it. As I said earlier, making alfalfa BIM is a lot more pleasing on the nose. IMO, you have not made a mistake (hard to do organically); again loading it up with nitrogen is a matter of choice (and that growth hormone in alfalfa is going to have your plants running away).

Here is something you may be interested in; it is a site that posts moon phases (that southern thing again). Why I am sharing it is because they list what days to make and use BIM/EM as well. They just started doing this (maybe I just started noticing); something I feel may be a sign from the organic spirits. For those with an esoteric streak in them, the calendar may be a useful tool. It comes up in "German", but there is a button one can select which converts the calendar to English (near the top of the page). I use the calendar every year; it has never let me down. Yet again, for those interested, see link below.

This thread is loaded with very good links IMO, a great deal to read and learn. Obviously I really like this kind of stuff, it keeps the neighbors running over here trying to not act "nosey", but spying for a good idea the entire time…

Blutranes

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

More to study, more to study, more to study.

Off to gather more grass clippings from curbside this. a.m

"Could someone please post a link to the recipe for "Bug Juice"?"

Sure Lisetn, the juice was a carry over from another thread (see link below). There is no garlic or ginger in "Bug Juice", just rotten fruit and other tidbits. Thanks for your compliments and trust your interest will be well rewarded…

Blutranes

How much water do you use in your bug juice? I added my "kitchen concoction" part to an almost full five gallon bucket of rainwater. Do you make yours more concentrated?

Lisetn, recipe below:

Also, go back up to the top post and copy and paste the LONG link for the ginger/garlic concoction. It is several pages in. It is actually a fungicide and made with G/G, beer or wine and 40proof alcohol. It can be added to other stuff but it is sort of separate in its preparation.

1. Line a sieve with a coffee filter and place sieve over bowl or large measuring cup.

2. Pour in yogurt and let it drain.

3. Collect the whey and store in pure form in fridge or mix 1:1 with unsulphured molasses to store at room temp.

4. Mix the pure whey, 1.2t to 2 gal de-chlorinated water (or rainwater or pond water or well water) (like you would use in a 2 gal pump sprayer.

5. If using room temp whey (with molasses), double the whey/molasses proportion above. 2.4t (or just use 2.5 for ease) to 2 gal water.

You can use the LB plain to spray on things/soil drench or mix it with other BIM/BN (bionutrients) you create.

NOTE: The drained yogurt will either be stiff, like cream cheese (longer drain) or thicker like sour cream or pricey greek yogurt(less drain) and can be used as both. Also can be flavored any way you wish. Search yo-cheese or lebnah for some ideas.

" How much water do you use in your bug juice?"

If I have a 5-gallon bucket of Bug Juice, that would make 50-gallons of tea. For every gallon of juice I make I add 10-gallons of water (mixed with water 10:1). Since you are just starting out you can make yours stronger (say 5:1) until you get your bugs (microbes) well established. Remember, not only is this putting microbes in your soil, it is also putting food (fertilizer) for your microbes and plants. A little goes a long way; there is no need to be greedy putting it out. And too, the juice will store well, it will ferment (just like BIM), but you will want to use even less as it gets older (50:1 or more just like BIM).

Using a small amount takes a lot of getting used too. Especially when adding Bug Juice to a compost pile; it just doesn’t seem like such a diluted amount will make that much difference. However, trust me, all these brews we are making are "very powerful" indeed. Better to use less more often, than to use more less often…

Blutranes

A good point, and I would say yes (6-9 hours). Although it is not critical, if one wants to be more exact one could use a local almanac or other moon gardening guide. And too, if one is not interested in all the "bells and whistles" of the moon calendar a good weather forecasting program that lists moon phases (Weather Watcher comes to mind) could be used.

There is a lot of good limited information about moon gardening out there (free), it is just a matter of searching around...

Blutranes

Thanks!

''Lactic acid bacteria can be collected from the air. Pour rice wash (solution generated when you wash the rice with water) in a container like a plastic pot with a lid (ice cream bucket). Allow an air gap of at least 50-75% of the container. The key here is the air space. Cover the container with lid loosely(not vacuum tight, allowing air still to move into the container). Put the container in a quiet area with no direct sunlight. Allow the rice wash to ferment for at least 5-7 days. Lactic acid bacteria will gather in 5-7 days when the temperature is 20-25 degrees C(68-77 F). Rice bran will be separated and float in the liquid, like a thin film, smelling sour."

When was the rice bran added?

~Bokashiguy

~Bokashiguy

You have a great website and great visuals. It REALLY helped me "get" the fact that I could use the whey from yogurt (or even kefir) for my lactic acid bacteria.

Thanks!
Penny

I separated the milk from my LB yesterday. I have a colander that fits nicely in my 6gal garbage can that I use for brewing tea. I strained it once to remove most of the milk solids, they went in the compost pile. I then strained it again, w/ brown paper towels in the colander, it took a long time to drain. I ended up w/ a clear yellow (mountain dewish) sweet smelling liquid. The milk solids smelt sweet as well. The smell of the whole thing reminded me very much of a good vanilla yogurt, I may get brave and try home made yogurt one of these days.

I used a green 2ltr bottle to store most of it in the fridge, the rest went in my 2gal sprayer (about a qt) and topped off w/ rain water, I drenched the beds, straw bales, front and back lawns w/ it as the down pour began again. I'm hoping the extra rain was enough to dilute the amount I put out.

I need an extra fridge in the garden to hold all of my concoctions and seeds, right now they are taking up the bottom drawer.

Got my shelves together today for where I am going to store my brews. I am trusting that as I empty one container another batch will be ready. I am finding that the word is spreading about my "plant whiskey" around town. My cousin is going through the stuff (tea) like he has his own brewery; but I must admit his garden is looking 100% better save his lack of compost on the soil in some areas.

The important thing is that all the teas I need are ready, the only thing missing is getting the plants in the ground (we will start on the 10th of next month). Anyway, here are some pictures of my storage shed with the brews in place. I love my brews and I love my BlackBerry!

Ummm…the gin is for my "Ginger/Garlic" extract brew. Nice having a lil brown jug too…

Blutranes