|
| Hey ya'll! I have a question for all you soil experts. ^_^ I'm new to the whole gardening experience, and I think that soil is probably the most confusing part! lol
So here's a little about the project I'm doing. I'm doing four 4' by 8' raised beds, probably 10"-11" deep. I'm only going to be growing vegetables in them, quite a bit being tomatoes. I talked to probably 6-7 different nurseries on the phone, and even the local extension agent about the kind of soil I should get. I get the prices and make-up of each company's soil, and they all say they have the best soil, it's the only way to grow veggies, yada yada. I suppose since they're trying to sell a product, it's to be expected. ;) I've gone to six different places (four nurseries), to see and feel their soil. I've found one company that has the best topsoil I've seen out of all the places, and an amazing horse manure compost blended with fine bark, as well. My question to you is this: for what I want to do, veggies, in raised beds...
P.S-I know things like peat moss are good for holding moisture in and what not, but we pay one price for unlimited "irrigation" water. I don't want to leave the fish high and dry, but at the same time, I don't have to worry about the water retention properties of my soil, say, as much as other people around the country might. I look forward to hearing back, as I need to place my order super soon! Hopefully with ya'lls help I can put in my order this week! ^_^ |
Follow-Up Postings:
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 3:49
| Sounds like you are on top of it Angela, Personally I wouldn't use peat moss, it doesn't add any value to your beds. I would do #1 as you proposed, and I would mix it totally together @ 50% each, the compost part will need to be topped off every year, Let's see some pics ;-)
|
|
| The soil everyone wishes they had, loam, is made up of about 45 percent sand, 25 percent, silt, 25 percent clay and 5 percent organic matter. Loam and topsoil are not the same thing since Loam is not available everywhere. I have had very good results getting the level of organic matter up around 6 to 8 percent while I have seen soils with 20 percent organic matter that held too much moisture. |
|
| As kimmsr said, the ideal is as close to the percentage of components he listed as it is possible to get, but you won't know that without some kind of analysis of each product. If you have some experience, you may be able to get a rough idea of what the result will be just be looking and feeling the soil, but it will be only an approximation. That being said, if your intention is to build your beds taking into consideration only the purchased components, and not the native soils (less than ideal, IMO), then 1 or 2 bags of compost for each 10 bags of "soil" should give you a good guesstimate of how to begin. You should, preferably, mix the purchased components with your native soil, get a proper analysis from a soil test, and then add the appropriate amendments to achieve the proper nutrient levels, pH, and tilth for optimum veggie production. |
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 12:43
| Hi Angela, If those are the only two components you can get ,I would go with my percentage 50/50 thoroughly mixed, the organic part of the mixture will do lots to benefit the mineral part, but it dissipates so fast , hence the need to "top off" the beds with compost, when shrinkage occurs. If you have access to other components , then it would be best (IMHO) to have a mixture of Decomposed Granite, Pumice, Clay/Clayish Soil, and Compost, 25 % each ..Thoroughly mixed up, and then topped off with compost as needed from here on out... |
|
| Angela, I also put 25% to 35% compost & crashed leaves in my raised beds. This is because I grow some beds for four seasons & want to have the food the plants need. A big plus is that I have more then one compost pile, so I can afford to add more when I plant the next season crop. |
|
| Hi, I am new to this forum but came here because of issues I have with a raised bed I created. I found out it is definitely possible to have too much compost and organic matter. I strongly recommend a soil test as soon as you can after finishing the bed. In my case, I brought in purchased compost since I live alone and cannot create enough for a garden myself. I initially brought in enough to partially fill the bed and tilled it into the existing soil. In the fall I added my dried leaves and after 2-3 years brought in more purchased compost to "replenish" what I assumed was depleting compost. Now I finally got a soil test after about 5 years and found out that I have way too much organic matter and nutrients that are almost all off the charts. I do not feritlize frequently. I am now planning on bringing in top soil and then plan to test again. I also assumed since the native soil is acidic I might need to add some lime, which I am glad I didn't since the soil test revealed a alkaline soil with a pH of 7.5! So with purchased composts and soils you really don't know where the components come from, if the pH is appropriate for what you want to grow and how rich it is, making soil testing even more important. Just thought I would share my recent lesson. :) |
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 16:34
| Hi Sue, I'm really trying not to be argumentative, but every circumstance is different, your situation didn't work for you, but there are so many variables, you simply can't make a blanket statement that "definitely possible to have too much compost and organic matter."... I don't know your circumstances, how you built your beds, what you put in them etc etc But last year I decided to answer this specific question (because I create so much compost), I decided to plant directly into pure compost (100% organic matter), and I grew : 365 lbs of Butternut Squash That is all grown not only in Pure Compost but the Compost was sitting on a blue tarp (I didn't want it intermingling with my gravel that was below it. So.. I will concede it is not "optimum" to use 100% pure Compost... it is do-able , with absolutely NO drawbacks, that I could see.... So.. extrapolating from that experiment, adding any other component just makes your growing medium that much better, more durable, better water retention, better able to provide structure and an environment for a more sustainable, gardening bed. Which again my medium works so wonderfully:
|
|
| Wow, I thought I was clear that this hole thing was new to me. The idea that it is possible to have too much compost came from the UCONN Agricultural Soil Analysis lab and I was just passing on. Obviously you disagree with them. I don't have enough knowledge in this area to do that and keep a straight face. I did post my my soil analysis results in another post and what they said. I also know in my case lush green green growth is not what I am after, personally, but rather productive healthy plants. I have been growing in this bed for 5 years so I know its "possible". I don't believe I said it wasn't. I just wanted to share some results and recommendations that surprised me and advocate for getting a soil test since the results are not always what you expect. |
|
| I am in agreement with Jon here, but it is because of the crops he is growing. Heavy feeders with rather tolerant growth habits - squashes and tomatoes come first to mind, but all of the crops he mentions fall into that category - will thrive in soils with very high OM readings, and are a way to reduce those percentages without the toil and expense of adding still more inputs. More sensitive crops may not thrive, because of excess nutrients, less-than-ideal pH, or high water retention. It is a more cost efficient practice to reduce excess by producing a crop that will make use of it, rather than buying something to create the same effect. I'm not aware of a quick crop-based method of changing soil pH, but adjusting nutrient or moisture levels by using the appropriate crop or practice is a relatively easy thing to manage. |
|
| Just curious now, but if you are purchasing components to make a new raised bed, which I is what I thought this thread is about, why would you not try to purchase what is an "optimum" mixture for what you want to grow? If " I will concede it is not "optimum" to use 100% pure Compost... it is do-able , with absolutely NO drawbacks" then I just don't understand. Doesn't optimum mean "absolutely no drawbacks" and how can something be not optimum but have absolutely no drawbacks? I know I am not knowledgeable on this issue but the semantics are confusing me. Since I said it was "possible" to have too much compost, which is what I was told from my soil sample, and I am not saying I know what John is growing or if he has too much for his situation, what did I say that was wrong? I did not say anyone DOES have too much, just that it is "possible" to have too much, which I got from a reliable source, and yet simply passing this along I got in trouble. I think I better stick to the other forums. I got in trouble much to fast here, lol. John I don't know you, certainly am not looking for an argument, and have no idea if your compost/soil is optimum for you or not, and did not mean to imply that at all. I still think soil testing is a good idea nd wish I had done it sooner. If that is controversial, I am sorry. |
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 17:52
| Wow Sue, I really apologize, I wasn't trying to upset you, and I appreciate the fact that you have come to these forums and are participating, people come and people go around here and it is always nice to see a fresh face. ;-) 1. I am not the "boss" around here ( your vote counts just as much as mine does ;-) 2. If I ever disagree with someone, It is just my opinion, based on actual work I have seen, and because everyone has different parameters, what worked for me, may not even work for someone else. 3. So..for all of my opinions... 4. I wouldn't necessarily argue with "UCONN Agricultural Soil Analysis lab", this is one of the parameters that I was referring too. They came to their conclusions based on the soil sample you sent them. I see nothing wrong in what they did. 5. Some of the best Gardeners on this Forum (Bill, for one) advocate getting a soil sample and then being able to know scientifically how to properly respond to an issue/issues. and the lab report came back and said, NO, it can't be done, you have 100% organic material, it won't work. You wrote: "I also know in my case lush green green growth is not what I am after, personally, but rather productive healthy plants" I'm not sure what point you are making, but I grew vegetables ,a lot of them, yes, they were green, and healthy, but that fact didn't preclude lots and lots of Vegetables. |
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 18:07
| Hi Sue, Yeah.. Sorry about that ... You wrote "If " I will concede it is not "optimum" to use 100% pure Compost... it is do-able , with absolutely NO drawbacks" then I just don't understand. Doesn't optimum mean "absolutely no drawbacks" and how can something be not optimum but have absolutely no drawbacks? AS I wrote that I also was thinking that I should elaborate on what I meant and what I did not mean, but.. I am so lazy , and just wanted to "nutshell" it ;-) Sorry, what I meant was, Absolutely no drawbacks: what I meant was , ZERO...ILL Effects on the plants that grew there. |
|
- Posted by jonhughes So.Oregon (jonehughes@hotmail.com) on Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 18:34
| Hi Bill, You wrote " and are a way to reduce those percentages without the toil and expense of adding still more inputs. More sensitive crops may not thrive, because of excess nutrients, less-than-ideal pH, or high water retention. It is a more cost efficient practice to reduce excess by producing a crop that will make use of it, rather than buying something to create the same effect. I'm not aware of a quick crop-based method of changing soil pH, but adjusting nutrient or moisture levels by using the appropriate crop or practice is a relatively easy thing to manage." Man, will you hurry up with that book you are writing, you are awesome man, that was a eloquent way of teaching us all very important data, that would be an excellent way of extracting excess OM from soils... I learn something new everyday ;-) |
|
| But what if you don't WANT to grow that crop, lol? I don't know about the original poster, but I just wanna grow tomatoes, peppers and a few herbs, lol! It seems backwards to me as a home gardener to test soil and grow what you need to correct the soil instead of growing what you need for food. It seems more geared to farming for profit than home gardening. If you are starting a new bed, why not create the soil mix you need to grow what you want? I don't mean to be argumentative, I know little about this and I am trying to learn. Are many people here commercial farmers as opposed to home gardeners? |
|
| that is exactly where the issue arises, Sue. Tomatoes aren't a particularly fussy plant, they will grow in a wide range of conditions provided nutrients are adequate, and are often among the first "volunteers" in a compost pile. Optimal nutrients for tomatoes will change over the season, encouraging vegetative growth early in the summer, and fruit production later on. Basil is a little more fussy about where it sticks its' feet, and carrots have different needs than herbs, so what is optimal for one crop may be less so for another. Because of this, soil-test recommendations are necessarily based on an arbitrary average - UCONN will provide parameters for individual crops, but that will get expensive real fast, for them and you, and you will be chasing different results for different crops... you definitely DON'T want basil to go to seed, but you do want tomatoes to do so. Now all this being said, I DO grow commercially, so my practices are different than what a gardener on a smaller scale would do. If I have an area of ground that is wetter, or higher in P or K than another, it may be easier for me to change a crop than to change the soil. It is a lot easier to properly amend a 4' x 8' bed than 40,000 square feet, or to optimize one bed for peppers and tomatoes, which are fairly heavy feeders that appreciate steady moisture and nutrients that favor fruiting, and another bed for basil, which will taste better with lower nutrients over all and less Potassium in particular. Other participants here are much smaller scale gardeners, but no less knowledgeable (and many much more so), who will share their own opinions, often differing from mine, but it rarely devolves from discussion to argument. It's complicated, and the assortment of voices and opinions can sometimes seem cacophonous, but for the most part, it's well intentioned on all sides. You'll soon find the voices that best resonate with your style and needs. I hope this doesn't confuse things further... be patient with us. |
|
| Well now that explains a lot. :) Thank you. I did not know that about basil and I love basil so I will put what you told me to good use. :) I believe my herb garden which is small and outside my back door, and tests very high in nutrients also, could benefit from a little less. I will be sure not to add fertilizer there, and I may add some top soil and or sand to get it down a little. |
|
| Wow! I didn't expect so many posts so fast! You guys are awesome! :D I saw a couple of you ask why it was that, "you don't just start with the optimum soil levels". I don't know if you were directing it to me or not, but I'll tell ya. I'd LOVE to put Miller's Mix(a great combo of soil in Utah) or some other super high quality stuff in my boxes, but my budget just doesn't allow for that right now. My budget for our WHOLE yard AND my gardening stuff has just been put down from $1,000 to $700(we moved money around in hopes to re-carpet downstairs. lol). Since the yard will need stump grinding, I had to buy the lumber to make my boxes(which I just finished today! ^_^), plants, trees for around the yard, etc., I don't have the money to buy the good soil. That stuff's anywhere from $80-$125 on average for a cu. yrd. out here. And since I need 4 cu. yrds. of soil just for my boxes, not including compost for the soil where I'm gonna put some berry bushes....how much the good soil would cost just can't happen. Plus, if I did do it and my husband found out I paid about $500 for "just soil", even though he's only 26, I'm pretty sure he'd have a heart attack. ;) By what I've been reading here, maybe that mix the guy does of 60%/40% wouldn't be a bad idea. I thought too that perhaps in the future I would put the awesome soil in the beds, but one at a time to be easier on the wallet. I dunno. I guess we'll see. Heck, who knows? Maybe that ratio will work out awesome for the stuff I wanna grow! :D Cool part is that, by what I read from a few of you, squash, tomatoes, and peppers aren't very fussy, which are some of the more important and exciting things I'm gonna grow! ^_^ (my priorities being the first two). Well thank ya'll so much for caring to answer my question. I know I've read a lot on this forum about soil ratios, but of course, no one ever asked the EXACT question that I needed answered. ;) |
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Soil Forum
Instructions
- You must be a registered member and logged in to post messages on our forums.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review the contents and make changes.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- It is illegal to post copyrighted material without the owner's consent.
- HTML codes are allowed in the message field only.
- No advertising is allowed in any of the forums.
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.