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| Hi, I am getting ready to plant in the spring and want to double check my plan before doing anything, as I'm fairly new to this stuff.
I removed my lawn and landscaped the yard with some paths and such. I'm planting native species (primarily), Northwest forest understory habitat plants like salmonberry, woodland strawberries, currant, snowberry, etc. Lots of berries ferns and moss. Reading up on these, most of the native plants I have do best with a soil PH between 5 and 6.5. I tested my soil this weekend in three spots and it's always around 6.7 to 7.0. Since I need to lower the PH, I was going to use aluminum sulfate. I have one bag, but not enough to do everything... it's tough to find in the local stores. I would like to get the soil PH down to at least 5.5ish. Anything else to think about that maybe I'm missing? Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks! |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| I wouldn't do it this way. Plain sulfur is safer, no heavy metals (aluminum) to build up. If you are planting natives, you should not need to amend the soil. Try it without-- you can always add sulfur later. PS: Gardening isn't pharmaceuticals, just because somebody puts some range in a book doesn't mean anyone actually did extensive studies to support it. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Tue, Mar 13, 12 at 22:18
| Mooserider. Most PNW soils are on the acidic side owing to all that delightful precipitation you receive. Did you have a soil test or are you using a home pH test kit? I ask because home kits are notoriously fallible. I've never gotten anything other than a 7.0 on either the home kits or the Rapitest meters - though my soil ranges, up to 7.7 in some beds and as low as 5.5 in the "native" areas of our property. Having said this, there are reasons your pH COULD be higher - if the topsoil and organic matter were stripped away during homebuilding is one prime example. If you (or a lawncare service) has added lime would be another reason. Do you know for a fact that your soil pH should be lower? If you haven't already, I strongly recommend a soil test. It's a worthwhile investment, especially since you're installing permanent landscaping. If you need to lower your pH, elemental sulfur - often sold as "soil sulfur" - should be widely available. Though, now that I think of it, it may not be as common in an area where most soils are already acidic. If it is needed, you're soil testing lab should be able to recommend the correct rates. |
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| It is quite unlikely that you will be able to lower your soils pH much, if any, this spring. Changing a soils pH takes time. you can start to work on that now and next year it may be close to where you want it. Contact your Washington State University Cooperative Extension Service about doing this, |
Here is a link that might be useful: Changing a soils pH
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- Posted by joepyeweed 5b IL (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 12:11
| I am an avid native landscaper and one reason that we plant natives is so that we don't have to amend the soil. For those plants, I wouldn't add anything except an annual topping of shredded leaf mulch. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 12:12
| How much should a real profession soil test cost? |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 13:11
| How much should a real profession soil test cost? I use Logan Labs in Ohio. Their standard soil test tells me everything I need to know--major cations and anions plus minors - all for $20. Some places charge a bit more. Steer clear of the shops that want $50-$80. I can't imagine where the value is at that price point. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 14:39
| fortyonenorth is hitting pretty close to home :-) I'd be very surprised if your pH was that close to neutral unless some liming or other de-acidifying amending had taken place. The vast majority of PNW soils (west of the Cascades, at any rate) will be in the 6.0 to 6.5 range, which is fully supportive of all our native plants. In some areas it can be quite a bit lower. And I would disagree that home soil pH test kits are inaccurate if done correctly. In fact they tend to be far more accurate than any other home soil test as long as you follow the directions carefully and use distilled - not tap - water. The production of results that are at or very close to neutral typically are an indication that tap water was used during the testing process :-) |
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| Where do you live in WA? East side soils tend to run higher pH than west side soils. As has been said, natives will likely to do well in your native soil as it is. That's true if you have native plants suited to your region. Beyond that, it's worth know that Aluminum sulfate can kill plants. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 15:32
| If it was only 20 dollars I would be all in favor of it. But, what would you test the soil that one had worked on or the soil that was not worked on? Would each sample cost 20 dollars? I used one of those shake up soil tests and it did not tell me anything at all. The colors did not even match. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 16:16
| Ha! to all your people who keep pushing professional soil tests. I knew it was a waste of time. I searched for the san francisco bay area and all I could find were places that test your soil for lead in case you want to sell your house to someone with children. I even checked soil testing for gardening san francisco. I know my soil has needs aluminum sulfate, I have no idea about sulfate. I buy the stuff that makes hydrangeas blue. It will say on the bag. It is white powder. I just use a tiny bit every couple of months on the soil, and it only keeps me from ruin. My soil is completed alkaline and the water is alkaline here also. But, I would not want to do a racial dosage of it, because it may kill the plants in large amounts. One thing is I keep mine in a jar because it will eat plastic. It can't get get wet. I have had the same amount for like 15 years, and I am not even ready to buy another, I have not used half of one bag. You just can't over do with the stuff. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 17:31
| You think it's a waste of time simply because you are not finding any local testing labs???? If that's the case, then you have minimal understanding of soil chemistry and the effect its existing nutrient load will have on the success - or lack thereof - on your gardening efforts. Soil testing labs do not have to be local; many are located in less urban areas simply because those who deal primarily with the soil - farmers and agriculturists - tend to be located in more rural areas. Soil testing labs are also often associated with land grant universities or those that sponsor the extensions services and master gardening programs. In your area, that would be UCDavis but no doubt there are scores of private labs around as well. As to the need or encouragement to obtain at least an initial baseline soil test, that is really the only way - other than trial and error - to determine what your soil has and what it needs. Anything else is just guess work and often produces significantly less than successful resuts. If you are satisfied with only mediocre results or are willing and financially able to throw a lot of purchased stuff in the way of both amendments and plants at your garden, then more power to you. Knowledge is a very powerful tool and the more you know about your garden with respect to soil quality, plant needs and nutrient availability the better off you are and the happier and more successful your garden will be. A basic soil test is just one simple tool in that knowledge arsenal. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 17:45
| Tropical - I've heard good things about A&L Western Labs in Modesto. Their standard test is $12; testing for micros is another $16. They charge a few bucks extra for recommendations. I know my soil has needs aluminum sulfate I don't think aluminum is an essential element, agronomically speaking. If you've been applying it for years, you probably have toxic levels. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 20:13
| I don't mean to say a waste of time, but if I can't find any local labs, it can't be that important. Modesto is really far away. I did notice that one on a website called eco testing. I wouldn't drive up to Modesto, I would have to stay over night. What makes you think aluminum is toxic? If it was they would not sell it for hydrangeas. I agree dumping a huge amount is a major mistake. If one is trying to change soil ph, you can't do it one year. It takes many years. But, what if he is not growing native plants? I don't grow CA natives at all, maybe a few poppies. CA native hate San Francisco weather. Not everyone loves native plants. It just depends on where on is native. If I was in the south or east bay then I would grown them. But, they are not very attractive. I like the look of southern cacti, but CA native are one dreary looking set of plants. I suppose I would have to mail a sample of the soil to Modesto. But, if I was considering a major dumping of something, I guess would need to test both before and after and it could run up a bit of money over time. Testing each sample of amended and unamended soil, mailing it away to Modesto, kind of a pain and is it necessary if your plants are doing great? Maybe if you are having an organic farm or something like that, it would be worth it. |
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- Posted by joepyeweed 5b IL (My Page) on Wed, Mar 14, 12 at 23:07
| Soil testing if you are trying to grow crops for resale is important. Soil testing for the average gardener is less important, but helpful if they are having poor performance. Soil testing to grow native landscape plants is probably overkill. To properly select native plants for a landscape, I refer to the USDA soil database and any natural history records for the area. |
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| How much a good, reliable soil test will cost depends. The universities that do soil testing charge from $6.00 to $18.00, or more. Commercial test labs start higher and go up. The Michigan State University charge for a soil test is $13.00 again this year. Some of our legislatures think MSU should not be in competition with commercial labs in doing this and are working on a bill to ban the practice. Some state university soil tesing labs will test soils from out of state while others will not. Some people have found some of the commercial labs to be not very reliable. Some people think soil testing to be not very important while others test much too often. If one wants to know what the soil pH and nutrient levels of their soil are (knowledge) then soil testing is necessary. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Thu, Mar 15, 12 at 8:03
| Soil testing to grow native landscape plants is probably overkill. To properly select native plants for a landscape, I refer to the USDA soil database and any natural history records for the area. The trouble with this approach is that so few of us have the luxury of gardening on "native" soils. Most homeowners have native land that was cleared for development; native land that was cleared for agriculture and subsequently converted to residential use; or worse. The process of development has a dramatic (some might say tragic) effect on the nutrient profile of one's soil. Suffice to say, just because I live in tall grass prairie country, doesn't mean I can successfully grow a tall grass prairie on my particular property with first taking steps toward replicating the conditions that native plant community is accustomed to. Soil tests from a land grand university or cooperative extension are going to be skewed toward agriculture use. However, a true base saturation soil test will provide a detailed profile of what nutrient elements and compounds are present in the soil and in what proportions. This is invaluable information. Better yet, pull two soil samples - one from a undisturbed native area and another from your own property. Compare the two and you'll have an excellent road map for returning your area to "native" conditions. USDA and USGS maps can be useful, but they are by definition general. Your property might fit a given profile for your area or it might be quite different because of microclimate, topographical characteristics or other factors. Use these resources in combination with a soil test - especially if you're planning a major investment in time or financial resources. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Thu, Mar 15, 12 at 11:33
| I found a blog about A&L Western Labs. The author is getting a test and you have to take 30 soil samples. I just thought you stuck a bit off dirt in a container. Most people are not going to bother to do this. I know my soil is all sand dune to begin with. If I had some kind of interesting native soil, I could do it just to see what is there. |
Here is a link that might be useful: soil testing blog
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- Posted by mooserider none (My Page) on Thu, Mar 15, 12 at 19:06
| Wow, tons of replies! Thanks so much for the feedback. I'll answer a few things that came up: - Location: I live in Capitol Hill in Seattle. We live on a ridge that runs north/south (near 18th). There is a ton of (what looks like) glacial deposit if you dig down about 2.5 to 3 feet... just turns into sandy soil and river rocks. The two 2 to 3 feet of soil is brown/organic. In another thread someone asked me the type of soil and to see how it layers in water. The thread is here:http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg1003493232631.ht
ml - Soil Amendments / History - I've never added lime to the yard myself. I've been there for about 10 years. No one has landscaped or stripped the yard in any way. Probably for a long, long time. The house is 110 years old. - Soil Test Used - This is the test kit I bough from City People's Nursery here in Seattle: http://www.amazon.com/Gardeners-Supply-Company-NPK-Test/dp/B00319R3OI/ ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1331852382&sr=8-6. It's pretty easy to use, and I tested three locations to make sure the results where consistent. I use filtered water from a reverse-osmosis system I have. Also, after getting 6.5-7 repeatedly, I was wondering if it was working right. I dropped a few grains of aluminum sulfate in the sample and it turned orange/red, as would be expected, so I think the kit is working right. Sounds like most of the responses are that the soil should be just fine for natives. I understand that and I'm sure everyone is right. It's just that I read that you can improve growth and fruit production for native berries by providing a more ideal PH, and that is all I'm trying to do. Sounds like maybe I should just add the aluminum sulfate slowly to get it there in the future, or perhaps use the sulfur instead (which is a little safer/more organic)? Does that sound about right? I think that fills in some of the questions. Again, thanks so much for the feedback! Please let me know if you have any other suggestions. Also, when I go to test the NPK (only looked at PH so far), if I need to add one of those elements, can they also affect PH in any way? |
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| Mooserider, I'm pretty sure your currants and ferns will be just fine; I say that because I can grow those native plants anyplace on our property, no matter how or how much the soil has been changed. I think the same about the salmonberries...I don't grow them myself, but others around here do. The rest of the plants I don't know about. For the currants, they are found around here in places where there is rotting wood (like the windrows on old homesteads), so I toss rotting logs around the base of my native currants, and they grow like crazy. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Thu, Mar 15, 12 at 21:26
| I am not sure about sulfur being safer. I looked all these things up on Wikipedia. Aluminium toxicity only happens if your soil is acid. The reason for the Aluminium is if you use sulfer it will take many years. The Aluminium makes it faster. I don't believe Aluminium sulfate will harm your soil if you don't use a lot of it, and apply it slowly so it has time to work. Aluminium could be harmful in cook wear or in deodorant. But those are different types of aluminium. But, compost would be the best thing to add. I added compost for years, that is why my soil is just and not the Aluminium I added slowly. I am sure my soil would be good without the aluminium because the compost increases the absorb levels of the plants in the soil. If you just add compost, you don't need anything else really. I just do it to counter act the alkaline water in San Francisco. If you feel nervous about it, you don't have to add it. The first time I added it, I used like half a cup and all the plants died. LOL. I learned the hard way. There was no internet back then. |
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| mooserider, the soil test kit you have will give you a pH number but it will not tell you whether that number is where its at because of the Calcium or Magnesium in your soil. How will you know what those numbers are and if they are in balance? If the infromation you provide the soil test lab includes that you want a soil pH of X.X they can supply the information you need to know about how to get it there without guessing. Nitrogen levels are dependant on your soils temperature which determines how active the Soil Food Web is. So that value in March may have little to do with what is there in June. Few soil testing labs test for N anymore for that reason. A good reliable soil test, not a test kit from a garden center, will also be able to tell you whether your P, K, Ca, and Mg are in balance, not just that you are deficient or have too much, as well as what you might need to do to correct any problems so you need not guess. Why some people think knowledge, ie. knowing what your soils nutrients and pH are, is bad or unnecessary is beyond me. |
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- Posted by tropical_thought San Francisco (My Page) on Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 10:30
| They have not said knowledge was bad. They said only that a soil test for the home gardener may be over kill. The value of the knowledge is judged by the length one must go to get that knowledge, the cost of that knowledge and the benefit one may receive from that knowledge. I could go through considerable effort to have a soil test done only to find out that yes, I have pure sand, that needs organic matter. I don't expect to find out anything earth shaking that will cause me to racially change my gardening practices from a soil test. By the way, filled out a form email to a soil lab, and did not even hear back from them. They don't really care. They are not doing business hand over fist to hobby gardeners in the Bay Area. If it was so important there would be pop up adds for soil tests, just like all the diet ads we see every few seconds. |
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| " If it was so important there would be pop up adds for soil tests, just like all the diet ads we see every few seconds." No, if they made a lot of $$$ off of them there would be ads all over. Unlike dieting, which has an appeal to a huge demographic, soil tests would only appeal to a very limited demographic... |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 14:18
| I looked all these things up on Wikipedia And there would be an accurate source for sure :-)) Seriously, sulfur is all that's necessary to increase soil acidity should you decide to do so. The aluminum does nothing in that regard and unnecessarily applying aluminum sulfate can very easily create conditions of aluminum toxicity. It doesn't take "years" for sulfur to help acidify but the effect is not immediate. I doubt you would effect any significant change this season. And while it is sacreligious to many to even mention the term, working peat moss into the soil before planting can boost the acidity quite rapidly and adds a variety of other benefits as well. FWIW, I gardened in Seattle for several decades before moving to Kitsap county and I have been a consulting horticulturist in this area for equally as long. Native plants, even in very urban city gardens, generally have NO issues with our existing soils. Typically the only time I recommend increasing soil acidity is with plantings that are heavily bordered with concrete. |
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- Posted by mooserider Wa (My Page) on Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 18:38
| Ok, well it sounds like maybe I'm over-thinking things at the start. I'll wait to see how the growth is through the first year and then adjust if needed in the future. It's really annoying to find out that those soil tests are essentially useless. Does the same hold true for the N P K portions of the test? For NPK, I read that a 4 4 2 ratio is best for our native berries. Why 442 and not 221 is beyond me. Is there really a difference? I'm new to this stuff. I bought some organic fertilizer that's 221, as I figured the ratio holds. Other than the PH thing that I'm not going to worry about now, I've been composting all winter and will have plenty to use. Here's how I was planning on layering the yard: ------------ Just cut a whole through the burlap, add a little extra compost to the hole, and then plant. If this isn't a good plan, please let me know! Thanks again for all the feedback! |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 18:54
| Again, I'm going to disagree on the validity of the home soil testing kits at least for determining pH. They are remarkably accurate as long as you used distilled water, even more so than many of the meters. For nutrient testing, they are indeed worthless - get a professional test for that purpose. And one of the major benefits of gardening with native plants is that they are well-adapted to both native soils and climate so need little attention after planting and establishment. They certainly do not require additional fertilization, especially if you plan to amend your soil with something like compost or leaf mold. FWIW, I'd skip the burlap as an unnecessary step - use newspapers or cardboard is you need to smother existing growth. Burlap can sometimes take far too long to breakdown. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 21:59
| Why 442 and not 221 is beyond me. Is there really a difference? No difference at all - it's a ratio, after all. Applying twice as much of the 221 would give you precisely the same amount of NPK. |
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- Posted by mooserider none (My Page) on Sat, Mar 17, 12 at 2:56
| "Again, I'm going to disagree on the validity of the home soil testing kits at least for determining pH. They are remarkably accurate as long as you used distilled water, even more so than many of the meters." I keep reef tanks with refugiums and have a reverse osmosis, deionization setup. I also have an electrolysis & TDS tester and have essentially zero on the meters. You can easily consider the water I used for this test as being way, way more pure as most distilled water. Distilled water retains way too many harmful trace minerals to grow corals. So my question is, can I assume that my soil PH tests are really 7.0 since I used pure water? |
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- Posted by mooserider none (My Page) on Sat, Mar 17, 12 at 3:02
| Also, in an attempt to raise my credibility with using such tests, I've been using PH, nitrite, nitrate, calc, etc testing for aquariums for years. They're pretty similar, accept for the soil. Even then, you need to gather your water samples from a certain depth and such. I'm really disappointed with home soil tests if they're really that bad. Aquarium water tests have served me well for years! I could trust them down to 1ppm tests almost dead on. |
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- Posted by joepyeweed 5b IL (My Page) on Sat, Mar 17, 12 at 21:37
| Suffice to say, just because I live in tall grass prairie country, doesn't mean I can successfully grow a tall grass prairie on my particular property with first taking steps toward replicating the conditions that native plant community is accustomed to. Well considering the native prairie plants can grow in compacted clay with no topsoil, I think it would be hard to change the soil to a point where the prairie wouldn't grow, unless of course it had been cleared to bare rock. Woodland plants, yes.... prairie plants... I think you chose a bad example. |
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