I would think that it's more a green than a brown. If you are using it as feed, then the greener the colour, the better as a feed it will be.

Yes, hay (unless it is ancient stuff) is a green.

Dave

Hay is always a green. The high protein in that hay will be held for a very long time unless that hay is exposed to the weather long enough.

Great, green it is! Thanks so much for your help.

Annette

Cornell Composting has the most extensive site of 'greens' and 'browns' and their C:N ratios. There are some odd numbers out these on various sites. Just last month I saw a value of 9:1 for grass, which is normally listed as 19:1 or 20:1.

This number was on a composting site list, not a posting by an individual.

I would like to know which category lawn thatch falls into. Cornell site list grass but I get tge impression they mean after mowing. I am looking to start my first batch in my compost tumbler and I am having a hard time coming up with the recipe. I am thinking:

1 bucket kitchen waste
1 bucket UCG
3 buckets thatch ??

Anyway, this is my first post in the forums. I have learned alot reading for the last few months.

Thanks

Actually, I have convinced myself that my thatch is a brown. My real question is what the C:N ratio might be. I also have plenty of newspaper laying around, and access to unlimited horse manure. I am trying to do some controlled experimentation to start with so I can get a feel for the quantities of things to add.

Thanks

Rob

Thatch, that accumulation of dead grasses that builds up in an unhealthy lawn, would have a C:N ratio in the range of 10 to 25 : 1 so they should be considered as a "green", similar to what hay would be.
Robin, your mix has way to much Nitrogen and not nearly enough Carbon in it.

Agreed and discussed here often - even the most dead, dry, brown, grass clippings are still considered a green, as Kimmsr said, just like hay. As mentioned above grass is hay, hay is always a green.

1 bucket kitchen waste
1 bucket UCG
3 buckets thatch ??

Are all classed as nitrogens (greens), so is manure. The newspaper is the only thing you have mentioned that is a carbon (brown). Use it and gets some cardboard, fall leaves, or some straw.

Dave

Hi Rob

I can't, nor won't, say whether thatch is a green or a brown, I don't know. Maybe those that can, have had some tested? FWIW, I did try using some spring thatch as a green in a large tumbler, it didn't behave like a green, not even close. It was also extremely difficult to get it to hold moisture.

Now it wasn't my thatch, it came out from town and obviously not all thatch will be the same.

I'd try a batch and see how it worked, you could always adjust as necessary.

Good luck

Lloyd

Thanks for the answers. There seems to be some disagreement about this. I am not arguing one way or the other but I am confused. The FAQ for this forum suggests thatch as a brown:

///Good browns, all readily available, most for free

...

Dried grass: either mow and dry or rake up dead grass from the lawn ///

Yet there seems to be no shortage of the opposite opinion. I thought thatch might follow the leaf logic. Gren leaves: green. Dried leaves: brown.

I have been looking and have yet to see thatch listed in a table of C:N ratios.

Thanks for the posts. I am glad that I found these forums, as they have provided some terrific education already.

Rob

Hi Rob

Just found this (go the very bottom if you don't want to read it), it's old but it has numbers. It also appears that the variant of the grass itself may lead to different ratios.

Lloyd

Lloyd,

I read it. Clear as mud. The average C/N ratio according to Table 6 for KB is 44.5, solidly in the brown camp I think. The final paragraph on page 19 also includes and interesting sentence.

"Using a type of nitrogen carrier that would maintain a higher nitrogen level in the thatch layer, could be beneficial in thatch decomposition."

Earlier he stated that 15 - 20 is the ideal C/N ratio for healthy thatch decomposition, implying that unhealthy buildups of thatch have a significantly higher C/N ratio.

This is fun to research, but I guess there is no substitution for throwing it in the tumbler and seeing what happens. I think I will nose around a little more. If I find something interesting I will make it known.

Rob

I find the subject interesting as well, although I did fall into a hypnotic stupor reading that document!

Looking at various other sites they talk about the thatch being made up of stuff high in lignin. And you're right, a lot of sites talk about using a higher N to help with the decomp of the thatch. I can't imagine using an N to get rid of an N, so the way I read it, thatch would be more of a C, which fits in with what I have experienced trying to compost the blasted stuff.

I get hundreds and hundreds of bags of this stuff every spring, usually very light, springy and dusty. Most of the time I just work it into the soil. It works in very well because it doesn't clump up at all and seems to disappear relatively quick.

Keep me posted if you use it in your tumbler.

Lloyd

While doing more googling, came across this post on a previous thread;

" * Posted by kimmsr 4a/5b-MI (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 17, 09 at 8:40

Given the usual amount of time that it takes thatch to build up and be removed the volatile Nitrogen would have escaped so that would now be a "brown"."

And from this thread;

" * Posted by kimmsr 4a/5b-MI (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 9, 09 at 7:19

Thatch, that accumulation of dead grasses that builds up in an unhealthy lawn, would have a C:N ratio in the range of 10 to 25 : 1 so they should be considered as a "green", similar to what hay would be."

Veeeerrrryy Interesting, but most confusing.

Lloyd

That is very interesting.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have had another thought. The Beard article seemed to reference excessive thatch. Kimmsr references "thatch that builds up in an unhealthy lawn." I have been thatching my lawn as a matter of habit. My lawn looks great, so I guess that supports the behavior. But maybe I am removing thatch that does not need removal. In this case perhaps the thatch removed from a healthy lawn is a green with a desirable C/N ratio of closer to 15 or 20.

The plot thickens.

Kissmr. What say you?

Rob

Ron - I understand your confusion, especially since you are far from the first to experience it. The issue of "is dried grass and thatch a green or a brown has come up often here, and the fact that that particular statement was included in the FAQ when the FAQ was written over 10 years ago now, only adds to the problems. We can't seem to get it removed despite several attempts to do so. ;)

If it helps, some of what has been posted in the past that I can recall off the top of my head (and that a search will pull up for you) includes all sorts of info on the amino acids in thatch, their effect on it's rate of decomp with and without added nitrogen, the results of one forum participant who mixed nothing but thatch with newspaper and the resulting compost, photos of both grass and hay in various stages of decomp, etc. etc. - if you really feel the need to get into it that deeply. ;)

Or look at it this way: thatch, whether you choose to call it a green or a brown makes little difference in the world of compost. It sure isn't the only compost component out there and there are plenty of things where the green/brown "class" label is cut and dried - pun intended. So don't get too hung up on it, ok?

Dave

Sometimes, someone actually does learn something. Some years back I was told, as many people are, that thatch is a brown probably by people that knew not what they were talking about, but I have since found information that contradicts what I thought I knew was correct, and I am never averse about admitting when in error, not very often however.
Thatch of about 1/2 inch can be an indication of a healthy lawn, although the absence of thatch is not an indication of an unhealthy lawn. If the thatch layer builds up much more than that 1/2 inch that indicates the Soil Food Web of that soil is not very active, ie. an unhealthy soil and therefore an unhealthy lawn. If the wee buggers that should be living in your soil are not digesting the thatch that can build up in turfgrasses there is a soil problem that needs attention.

I was always confused by this until I realized what made a green a green and brown a brown.

Protein makes a green a green. Any material that you see livestock eating is a green because it is a source of protein. Protein contains the ever-popular nitrogen. Materials that contain at least a few percent of protein, like coffee grounds, are green even though they are brown colored. Cereal grains, nuts, and seeds are all green because of the amount of protein they contain. Grasses are considered grains.

Lack of protein makes a brown a brown. Materials like lettuce that have no protein are brown even though they are green colored. Red tomatoes are brown but the seeds are green. Since there are relatively few seeds in a tomato it is an overall brown. Tree leaves are brown due to lack of protein.

For the purposes of compost, I am under the assumption that a green is a green because the ratio of C:N puts it on the green side (i.e. less than the 30:1) and a brown is a brown because the ratio of C:N is higher than the 30:1. The degree to which it is farther away from the 30:1 ratio, determines the strength of the classification. For example, sawdust, very strong carbon (or brown) due to a C:N ratio any wheres from a couple of hundred to several hundreds to one.

Dead leaves DO contain N (or protein if you wish) but it is in such a low proportion to the C that they are on the "brown" side. Not only that, the leaves can vary so greatly in this ratio, that using a fixed number to represent the ratio for all types of dead leaves is goofy. It varies.

In a nutshell, it is just like eating a meal, balance is important. The closer a person gets to a balanced meal by consuming a variety of foods, the better nutrition one should have. Probably overly simplistic but that's the gist of it.

For composting, the ideal C:N ratio is said to be around 30:1 (range can be 25:1 to 40:1 depending upon which website one looks at), the closer one gets to that "optimum", theoretically, the better the microbes will flourish (given the other essentials). Mix a strong brown with a strong green in the close to correct amounts and voila, a C:N in the range for composting. Likewise mix a weak green with a weak brown in the correct proportions and a good ratio can be obtained.

Whether livestock eats it or not is not the best way to classify a feedstock either. We have fed straw to cattle, we have had cattle reject alfalfa. I would rather try and find a credible source of information on the internet to determine the approximate C:N ratios. I realize this is not always easy. We seem to forget that "I don't know" is sometimes a valid answer.

Having said all that, I try not to panic too much about the ratios, kinda go with a gut feeling and I sort of just wing it for the most part. Sometimes I am surprised, like with using the thatch. After a few tries most people I know get the swing of it, but it can help to know what classification a material is in, and how strong it is, hence this type of discussion.

Lloyd

I'm exhausted now, time for a nap.

A nice starter recipe is 1.5 pounds of fresh cut grass to 1 pound of dry finely shredded leaves. This should reach max temp after two days. Maybe 160F when I mixed it in May or June (ambient temp 60-70F. Spring grass usually has enough moisture, but a sprinkle won't hurt.

When I start a new pile I often use leaves mixed with grass and or used coffee grounds. This heats up well, and provides nice core heat if I want to add fruit and veggie wastes and fish parts in the core.

I could be wrong, but I thought the reason that green vegetables were "greens" for composting is that they are green because they have chlorophyll in them. I just looked in Wikipedia and there are different types of chlorophyll, with 35-55 C atoms per 4 N atoms. Since C has an atomic weight of 12 and N has an atomic weight of 28, that would mean that chlorophyll has a maximum C:N ratio of a little less than 6. Lettuce isn't considered a protein source, but it's mostly water. I think it would still be a green, though since it has a C:N ratio lower than 30.

I was also under the impression that the 30:1 C/N ratio was the dividing line between "brown" and "green" items.

Thanks for the tip Robertz6. Do you estimate the weight of the coffee/leaves/grass mixture?

I would like to pose another question. I have been offered some horse manure that contains no bedding material. First, for composting purposes, should I prefer fresher manure to aged manure or vice versa? Second, If I assume HM is C/N 30 then can I use HM to fill out the volume of my tumbler? Finally, should the amount of HM, or any single ingredient, not exceed a certain limit? I have read that UCG should not exceed 25% of total volume.

I am looking to starting a load on Satuday, as the temps here are looking better. I'm excited.

Rob

I am under the assumption that a green is a green because the ratio of C:N puts it on the green side (i.e. less than the 30:1) and a brown is a brown because the ratio of C:N is higher than the 30:1. The degree to which it is farther away from the 30:1 ratio, determines the strength of the classification.

Okay lets run an example to show how easy that ratio is to calculate. We all know that the amino acid arginine is prevalent in wheat germ and flour, buckwheat, granola, oatmeal, nuts (coconut, pecans, cashews, walnuts, almonds, Brazil nuts, hazelnuts, pinenuts, peanuts), seeds (pumpkin, sesame, sunflower), chick peas, and cooked soybeans. We also remember from organic chemistry that the chemical formula for arginine is (CH2)3NH-C(NH)NH2. Thus there are 4 atoms of carbon (atomic weight 6) to 3 atoms of nitrogen (atomic weight 7) in every molecule. Of course arginine is not the only amino acid in protein so we should really go through this for all 20 or so of the amino acids that may or may not be present in every leaf.

Or we could realize that in general terms, protein is the source of nitrogen and carbohydrates is not a source of nitrogen. Or we could step back one more step and realize that carbon and nitrogen are NOT what we are looking for in a compost pile and that PROTEIN and CARBOHYDRATES are what we are looking for. I submit to the GW jury that I can dump a load of black carbon dust on the ground and pump nitrogen gas into it from now on and there will never be any composting in that pile of dust. It is organic foodstuffs that decompose, not chemicals. I further submit that the only reason scientists talk about carbon and nitrogen is to quantify to EACH OTHER what they are talking about. They know it is protein and carbohydrates but in the Philippines they will use compost made from mung beans and water buffalo dung while we use horse dung and tree leaves. They have to have a common language so they settled on the chemistry. Unfortunately we home owners have been reading over these scientists' shoulders and think we can understand what they are talking about. I believe we cannot.

I think the best we can do is to estimate the ounces of protein in a pound of grass and assume all the rest of the 'poundage' in a pile is carbs. Then start talking in terms of pounds of 'sugars' per pound of protein and we can restart this whole conversation in terms that we all know and can measure. (and by the way, I realize that my wise suggestion ain't happening soon)

I hate to bring this up but it really is not all that simple as I have made it out to be. A pound of blood and a pound of feathers have about the same amount of protein but a pound of blood will decompose in a few days while the pound of feathers may take months. If you want to heat up your pile, feathers won't do it. I have never seen this addressed in any of the literature - not that I'm following the compost topic in the literature, but it seems that if the topic were on the table, it would filter down to the forums.

In any case I think the idea that we back yard composters can reduce composting to ratios is a waste of time. Put all the "greens" in it that you have and if it smells bad, then put more leaves on top. Keep it moist and you'll have compost. There is no other possible alternative.

"Thus there are 4 atoms of carbon (atomic weight 6) to 3 atoms of nitrogen (atomic weight 7) in every molecule. "

I think you're using the atomic number, not the atomic weight, but the atomic weight is about double the atomic number, so the ratios still work.

I don't know where I came up with 28 as the atomic weight of N in my earlier post. My calculations are all off as a result of using 28 instead of 14.

Could rabbits be considered livestock? They will happily eat lettuce. How about pigs? Although that's not really fair, because pigs will eat just about anything.

Rob:

I think you might find some of the tumbler posts at least as valuable as this one. I found my tumbler rather hard to use, so I only used it for 18 months. (The center bar broke after three years, but it was no longer being used).

I have rather poor soil and raise 20 tomatoes and other produce, so I can use all the compost my eight piles can make. My piles are all mesh bin hardware cloth; four feet in diameter and 24" high. Core heat can reach 160F during the warmer months.

Some folks have difficult with the C:N numbers; one problem is some people talk in terms of weight while other talk in terms of volume. I always use weight, it seems more precise than volume terms where someone says '2/3s brown, 1/3 greens' (and never says what the materials are).

On my third tumbler load I reached 160F core heat, about as high as one can expect and want. The first two loads did not go past 100F in the summer. I ended up putting all my ingredients in a rubbermaid and weighting everything on my bathroom scale. After a while one can estimate things and forget the scale.

Fresh cut grass and used coffee grounds are both aprox. 20:1

"We also remember from organic chemistry" Ha! Not me, IF I was there, I was sleeping! (I've never heard of arginine).

I don't need to calculate the C:N ratio of each of the feedstocks, most of the feedstocks I use have already been calculated by smarter people than me, utilizing witchcraft and sorcery for all I know (or care), and can usually be found someplace on the 'net.

I don't need to count atoms or molecules, know PI to the 27th decimal or the Pythagorean relationship.

All I want, is a rough idea of whether it is a Green or Brown (substitute any term you want) and roughly how strong. If I know it's a relatively strong green, I know I can mix it with a relatively strong brown to get what I want to get. If all I have is a weak brown, then I would use more of that than I would a strong brown. If the feedstock is a negligible amount relative to the whole bin (say the body of a rat in a 2 CY tumbler), I could give a rats a$$.

Just like baking a cake, I don't need to know the precise molecular structure of the flour, it's protein content, which province the wheat came from, the variant of the wheat itself, which day it was harvested on, by what type of combine or what kind of truck it was hauled on. I just need to know it is what flour is supposed to be.

I guess with my lack of education it works out well because it just seems logical to me. The problem I ran into was believing that thatch was a green (which I read on this forum). The thatch I used didn't work as a green for me and in the future, if I ever use it again, I will treat it as a weak brown or neutral.

Just for a giggle I googled lettuce nutrients and find out it contains a whole wack of stuff that I could care less about. Just for a laugh, expand all the "more details" on that page.

And good luck with changing all the tutorials over to proteins and carbs. :-)

Lloyd

I think composting is similar to cooking. There are people who must follow a recipe exactly and those who can't for the life of them follow a recipe. Unlike cooking tho, with composting you can add ingredients and eventually have success. In cooking you have to give the failures to the dog or just compost them. My take on it is that the easier we make it for most people the more they are likely to do it.

Annette, that rabbit hay probably has urine and manure on it so that would make it a green and it should be cooking pretty fast. Almost makes me want rabbits again - it makes a great amendment.

"And good luck with changing all the tutorials over to proteins and carbs. :-) "

Hey, I can figure that one out.

Protein 1g
Carbohydrates 0g

It said so on the label :)

pt03, thank you. That was my point. We don't need to know the mass of carbon or nitrogen to calculate ratios. All we need is a rough idea of what we're putting in the pile.

In a few words, if the material has protein, it will heat up your pile and make it stink. If it has no protein it will absorb the smells from the protein decay.

Hi Dave, I guess I missed your point completely then cause that is not the way I read it. Sorry.

In a few words, if the material has protein, it will heat up your pile and make it stink."

I sort of disagree, a material might have some protein but it might not have enough protein relative to the carbon to create heat nor stink.

I thought most people would rather construct a pile so as to avoid problems such as strong odors, hence the question (thatch) in the first place. Where a disservice is done is to tell people the wrong information as if it is gospel. If we do not know, say we do not know. Do not make a persons problem worse by bull$hitting them under the guise of knowledge! If one is gonna guess, tell us it is a guess.

Lloyd

I sort of disagree, a material might have some protein but it might not have enough protein relative to the carbon to create heat nor stink.

If you want to nit pick, use some common sense. Yes, you cannot put one corn flake in a pile and expect it to start a fire.

I thought most people would rather construct a pile so as to avoid problems such as strong odors, hence the question (thatch) in the first place. Where a disservice is done is to tell people the wrong information as if it is gospel. If we do not know, say we do not know. Do not make a persons problem worse by bull$hitting them under the guise of knowledge! If one is gonna guess, tell us it is a guess.

That would be sad. What are you referring to?

Any odors can be absorbed with dry leaves. Piles are not so much constructed as much as they just happen with whatever ingredients you discard this week. If the little woman happens to come home with 200 pounds of horse manure, that would reconstruct almost anyone's pile. Still, though, all you have to do is cover it with leaves.

All I'm saying is compost is not rocket surgery. It is going to happen regardless of what you do to speed it up. I think spending time guessing at the contents of your feed stuffs and guessing the ratios of the various elements is a huge waste of intellect.

Nit pick? Common sense? On this forum? That's funny!

ISTM that sometimes this forum runs into problems when intellectuals (experienced people) use language that they assume everyone else (inexperienced people) understands.

Can you find me one compost tutorial with any credibility that does not mention C:N ratios?

I'm no rocket surgeon (I cheated my way through high school and dropped out of grade 12) but I do all right in the composting field so you are absolutely correct there.

The blending of various feedstocks to obtain a value is really as simple as mixing hot water and cold water to get warm water. But I do have to have the knowledge that one is hot and one is cold. If I mix a hot and a hot, I ain't gonna change nothing.

To clarify, adding a very strong carbon to another very strong carbon, will do very little. Sure, in the long run ialbtc, but in the long run, we're all dead too.

Lloyd

P.S. I really like the rocket surgeon reference, I'm gonna use that one at work!

Hi Annette!
Have fun w/your new composter! I've made a list of compost ingredients that you might find helpful - see below. Someone asked me to make a list of browns - so there's a list of browns at the bottom.
All the Best,
Tree

Here is a link that might be useful: 201+ Compost ingredients