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| I have a 10000 sq foot garden in Illinois and just got my test results back with little help from the agency with interpretation. My results are:
All lbs/Acre Phosphorus 29
Saturation
Also,
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Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Tue, Mar 27, 12 at 21:32
| Your phosphorus and organic matter are low, but you'll be addressing them both--at least from the long term perspective--with the manure input. Your base saturation %s are excellent - have you worked on these previously? What is the pH from the soil report? I'm going to guess it's around 6.5. Also, in the future, it might be helpful to test for micronutrients, e.g. copper, iron, zinc, manganese and boron. You always want to get your NPK and secondary macronutrients squared away first, but since yours look good, you might as well fine-tune. With low OM, you'll need to add nitrogen (amount will depend on your crop) and, if it were me, I'd use a little triple super phosphate, but otherwise, I think you're in really good shape. Hopefully others will weigh-in as well. |
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| Thanks! We live out in the country and they call it timber soil. This land has never been worked. The pH was 6.1. I tested it when the soil was cold, will that effect the test? We will be growing about 30 different crops and I was going to use a complete fertilizer (territorial seed company recipe) to side dress the heavy feeders. What do you use to add nitrogen? Will side dressing the plants with a complete fertilizer be enough? I believe the recipe amounts to a 9-2-3 ratio. The recipe is 4 parts cotton seed, 1 part garden lime plus 1/2 parts kelp and bone meal. I might just go with the cotton seed and lime to save money or do you think i need the kelp and (fish) bone meal? |
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| With a 6.1 pH I'd either skip the lime or go really easy on it. You need phosphorous as much as anything, (the middle number) I'd add the bone meal or fish meal. Fish meal will have some Nitrogen content. Other Nitrogen sources may be cheaper too. I buy based on what is the cheapest per # of actual nitrogen. Soybean meal, blood meal and alfalfa are all good sources. You could use a combination of them all to equal your 4 parts. Might consider what is the cheapest, longest lasting source of phosphorous like rock phosphate. I like to use both organic (like bone or fish meal) and mineral (like rock phosphate) to have short and long term feeding. I don't know what's available in your area. I buy from fedco in Maine but shipping would be expensive to get it to you. You could try their website to judge for yourself. |
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| Also, not sure if this matters, but I tested the soil before we plowed it and tilled. There was some field cover, not sure what types. Would that add in nitrogen after it was tilled in? |
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| I have a 25 pound box of fish bone meal..so you think the cotton seed meal (for nitrogen) and fish bone meal is how I should go for now. Since I need more nitrogen and phosphorous, should I apply in in equal parts or how? |
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| did some more research and found out that fish bone meal attracts racoons, which could be a problem out here in the country. So, since I need nitrogen and phosphorous, how about cotton seed and rock phosphate equal parts which i will use to did in near each plant or side dress since it would take an awful lot to apply even to the whole soil (10,000 sq ft. )Or is that to much phosphate and would a 4-1 nitrogen to phosphate ratio work better? |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Wed, Mar 28, 12 at 15:09
| To answer your question about tilling in the cover, it probably will not make much difference. Vegetation like that is slow release anyway so I doubt you would overshoot on N. The manure will probably have much more N than the cover crop did. As for amounts to add, you are kind of shooting in the dark on N in view of the manure. Did the soil test give you any suggested amounts? Usually it will say so many lb of P per acre, and you can do the math with whatever product you have to determine application rates. If they did not recommend anything you might ask them if they can. |
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| If it were my 1/4 acre, I'd do it this way. 50 # lime dolomite 50 # hi calcium lime 500 # jersey greensand 500 # rock phosphate 150 # fishmeal (8-12-2) 100 # alfalfa meal maybe 100# of azomite that's just me.... I'd add the manure too, plus any other compost I could get my hands on- truckloads of it. That said, what are you doing with it? 10000 sq ft will feed a lot of people... Maybe you could grow part of it amended as well as you can and grow cover-crops on the rest to boost the organic matter. If you already have cotton seed meal keep in mind it may have an acidifying effect on your soil. It shouldn't be an issue though. |
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| I came into the land through the family and am using it to grow 30 crops to sell at a roadside produce stand. Thanks for all the advice, but if I put all that in I would never make any money. I learned that the soil test I got is decent for a first year and will just add composted manure and side dress heavy feeders with cotton seed and rock phosphate and build it up yearly. Thanks, I learned a lot looking all that stuff up. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Wed, Mar 28, 12 at 22:10
| With a 6.1 pH I'd either skip the lime or go really easy on it. I agree. 6.1 is darn near ideal, so I'd forego the lime for now. The manure input may bump it up a bit, so better to re-test in the fall or next spring and reassess where you are. So, since I need nitrogen and phosphorous, how about cotton seed and rock phosphate equal parts which i will use to did in near each plant or side dress since it would take an awful lot to apply even to the whole soil (10,000 sq ft. )Or is that to much phosphate and would a 4-1 nitrogen to phosphate ratio work better? In terms of nitrogen, you're looking at a total of roughly 70 lbs. per acre considering the manure, organic matter and fish bone meal. This is plenty for legumes and probably sufficient for short-season greens and the such. For crops like corn, tomatoes, peppers, etc. you'll need to supplement with additional nitrogen - let's say an additional 40 lbs./acre. If you're using cotton seed meal (6% N), you'd apply 666 lbs./acre or roughly 166 lbs. for your 10,000 sq. ft. If you opt for blood meal or feather meal (12% N) you'd use half that amount. Your test shows that you are deficient in phosphorus - 29 lbs. is barely enough to cover your next crop (in many cases). Does it report phosphorus as actual P or does it say something like "as P2O5"? There's a big difference; P2O5 is only 44% actual P. In any event, you'd do well to get your phosphorus reserve up over 100 lb/acre. Your 3000 lbs. of manure will give you 28 lbs. actual P, so let's say you need to add an additional 75 lbs. actual P per acre. The fish bone meal is an excellent option - it's 28% P2O5 (roughly 12% actual P). You'd need roughly 150 lbs. for your 1/4 acre. BTW, I wouldn't worry about the raccoons. If you have them around you're going to have problems with them regardless of how you amend your soil. While hard rock phosphate could be a good option, with your current P deficiency, I don't think you could add enough economically. If your rock phosphate is labeled 3% P (P2O5), you'll get only a bit more than 1% immediately available phosphorus. Even though I generally advocate the organic approach, in your situation you might consider banding triple super (0-45-0) at the recommended rate. It'll cover you for the next crop while you build your P levels through manure and other phosphate additions. |
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| Another way is if you have access to more of the manure. 80 tons to the acre might serve you well. So for a quarter acre, that's 20 tons. Maybe 10 tons and some other amendments. This is because you wanted to grow organic. You could always go for chemical fertilizers but you'll have to use them every year. Greensand and rock phosphate generally are applied every 4 years, depending on future soil tests. |
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| Because of the cost, I might go a combination of organic and inorganic. With the results of my test, I might apply 10lbs of 12-12-12 per 1000 sq ft and side dress with a 4-1 ratio of cotton seed and rock phosphate. With the cotton seed and phosphate along with the compost, you think I will get enough trace elements? |
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| A soil pH of 6.1 is just slightly below the optimal 6.2 to 6.8 and is no more concern then a soil pH of 7.2 would be. Of concern is the level of organic matter. At 2 percent that is very low if you consider that 6 to 8 percent is optimal. How much organic matter is in that composted manure? You need more vegetative material to get the amount of organic matter in the soil up to the optimal level. To hold and make nutrients available to the plants you grow you need more organic matter in your soil, especially if you have the typical Illinois clay soil. |
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| So, what would you suggest I do to get more vegetative material into the soil? |
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| I agree with fortyonenorth that you very badly need phospourus now. It likely would take the triple super phosphate to get you there this year. Adding the raw phosphate will help in the future years. The manure may have quite a bit of organic matter especially if straw and hay were in it rather than shavings. Carey Reams advised a 7 to 1 calcium to magnesium ratio. I would not add dolomite. He also advised a 2 to 1 phosphorus to potassium ratio. I feel that that much phosphorus is high, but what do I know? |
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| Also, I did the test before I plowed, used a disc, and tilled in the field cover crop...so that should also help with the organic matter, right? |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Thu, Mar 29, 12 at 11:56
| With the results of my test, I might apply 10lbs of 12-12-12 per 1000 sq ft and side dress with a 4-1 ratio of cotton seed and rock phosphate. With the cotton seed and phosphate along with the compost, you think I will get enough trace elements? Rock phosphate isn't really intended for side-dressing IMO. First, as I mentioned above, it has very limited immediate availability. Also, it's very immobile in the soil - in other words it's going to pretty much stay wherever you place it. I'd recommend that you broadcast and till under. If you really want to side dress, use the triple super. In terms of trace elements - that would come from stuff like the kelp meal, greensand, etc. Many Illinois soils are deficient in boron and copper, but I wouldn't add these unless indicated by a soil test. |
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| If I apply a 12-12-12, wouldn't a super be overkill? |
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| Lincoln, These guys/gals have a lot of knowledge. This IS a great place to pick up good information. That said, I wonder if you've have experience growing produce? I'm not criticizing, please don't take it that way. I highly recommend Eliot Colemans "the new organic grower" Your library probably has it, if not, they may be able to get it. Yes- your cover will add organic material, as much from the roots as the top growth. Wayne- I'm still learning but wouldn't the rock phosphate, fish meal and azomite bring enough calcium to the party to offset the magnesium in the dolomite? The analysis I'm looking at says 8.5% MgCO3 and 87% CaCO3 ... Then again the greensand has 3% mg too... Maybe I overdid... Just asking. |
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| I know they do, which is why I am asking questions. Just getting clarification...which is the point of forums. My last statement was in the form of a question to clarify as I have posted many questions on here. Experienced gardeners are always learning and asking questions, you do not stop doing learning because you are experienced. There are sooo many ways and tips when it comes to gardening that you can get 20 different answers to one question, being my point that we are always learning. Do not question my experience because I am asking for questions or clarification. Yeah, I read that book and probably ever other well-known book on gardening. Dont troll my thread... |
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| You basically just told me to listen to them and not question anything they say and follow a few sentences later with a statement questioning their advice...Way to contradict yourself in a matter of a few sentences. "Wayne- I'm still learning but wouldn't the rock phosphate, fish meal and azomite bring enough calcium to the party to offset the magnesium in the dolomite? The analysis I'm looking at says 8.5% MgCO3 and 87% CaCO3 ... Then again the greensand has 3% mg too... Maybe I overdid..." |
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| Dude I'm not trolling, I ask questions too. Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention. I agree with always learning, too by the way. |
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| Forty, with my money and resources here, to try and wrap up everything in here, tilling in the cover crop, applying 300 lbs of manure per 1000 sq. ft., applying a 12-12-12 at a rate of 10 lbs per 1000 sq ft. and side dressing with a 4-1 ratio of cotton seed and triple super is a good start for this year 1 plot? I will also feed as the year grows with fish emulsion. |
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| .Way to contradict yourself in a matter of a few sentences. I was asking if what I said I'd do if it were MY land was a bad idea, if I may have steered you wrong. I said 50# of dolomite and wayne said he wouldn't add dolomite. |
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| And, do you have a better recommendation that 12-12-12, maybe 10-30-15? |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Thu, Mar 29, 12 at 14:06
| If I apply a 12-12-12, wouldn't a super be overkill? I'm not an agronomist; I'm simply speaking from experience. If you add 10 lbs. of 12-12-12 per 1000 sq. ft., that's a total of 100 lbs. of fertilizer for your 1/4 acre. 12%, or 12 lbs. will be the "P" component - P2O5. As I mentioned above, P2O5 is only 44% actual phosphorus, so you're really only broadcasting a bit more than 5 lbs. actual P. In organic gardening the long term goal is to build P levels. But you can't do it overnight. Banding the triple super will satisfy this year's crop. Hopefully, when you test again, you'll see a P increase from the manure. And, do you have a better recommendation that 12-12-12, maybe 10-30-15? Frankly, I'd just broadcast nitrogen alone and skip the K (I don't believe you need it) and the P (if you plan on band applying the triple super). As an aside, I Googled the Territorial Seed fertilizer recipe and found an article by Steve Solomon, the former head of Territorial. It was well-reasoned and, I thought, very good. One of the points he made was that the fertilizer was designed for a hypothetical soil where no nutrients were present - in other words, designed for a "blank slate." You're not in that situation. You have a fairly well-balanced soil, with a deficiency of P, organic matter and, perhaps, micronutrients. My advice would be to focus on these and don't worry about following the fertilizer recipe he prescribed. |
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| Thanks for the info. Do you know what the rate of application of the super is? Say per 1000 sq ft? |
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| " If you really want to side dress, use the triple super." If the cost of banding the 1/4 acre with super is too high for me, would side dressing as you said be an ok option or will that not be enough? For example, if costs prevented me from using super and instead I went ahead and used a synthetic, would side dressing with super along with the synthetic be enough phosphorous? I am finding super at about $12 per 4 lbs which could be expensive if I use it on the entire 1/4 acre, so I am looking at an alternative way to get the phosphorus up this year as going completely organic is way to costly this year. Thanks for all your help. |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Thu, Mar 29, 12 at 14:56
| Sorry for the confusion. I was using "side dress" interchangeably with "banding." I'm not really clear on your question. Triple Super Phosphate is a synthetic fertilizer made by reacting rock phosphate with acid. The label on Bonide's triple super says use 8 oz. per 100 sq. feet of row. Figure out how many row feet you'll have and then buy the TSP in larger quantity - check with a larger garden center, nursery or farm supply. My local GC has it for roughly $75 for a 50 lb. bag - though you'll probably only need about half that amount. |
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| ok, o believe i would need 30lbs then. I already have the 12-12-12, could i use that and the triple or would it be too much? Or maybe just the super 0-20-1 if i use the 12-12-12 I already have?Thanks again! |
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- Posted by fortyonenorth 6b (My Page) on Fri, Mar 30, 12 at 10:54
| If you can find triple super by the 25 lb. bag, just use that - 5 lb. isn't going to make or break the garden this year. If you don't already have a nitrogen source, use the 12-12-12 instead - but broadcast, don't band it. |
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