2. Eliot Coleman recommends 40 tons/acre manure for initial application to infertile soil (which mine is). I need someone to check my math. 80 tons divided by 43560 sf = 1.84 lbs/sf to be applied. Assuming the manure is 1450 lbs/cubic yard, that's 53.7 lbs/ft3, divided by 1.84 lb/ft2, that comes out to 1 ft3 will cover 29 sf 0.4" thick?

Of course, if he was talking about fresh manure which is heavier, and my stuff is lighter (I haven't weighed a ft3 of it yet), then this is all off.

I don't think I should spread several inches of compost at one time, professor at UCONN said not to apply more than 1/8" of manure or 1/2" of leaf compost so as to avoid N runoff and P build-up - but my N and P are extremely low right now. Again, I assume he was talking about fresh manure which would be higher in N? But I can add more in the fall, and more next year, to try to build the soil fertility. I will also probably have to add more lime - but will test again in late summer to see how much to use. I limed lightly (pelletized lime) 2 weeks ago, then used same pelletized calcitic lime a bit heavier this past week since we were finally getting rain. The lime was just lightly covered with soil, with a thin layer of coffee chaff and wood shavings, then burlap.

So, how thickly should I spread this aged crumbly stuff to my very poor sandy soil? Can I add more if I incorporate it in? Probably not practical to dig it in more than 6-8" deep. I don't know if you really need OM much below that, even for root crops? Would just keeping the sand for drainage rather than trying to amend 2-3 ft deep be OK? Should I just put it on top of the burlap and let it sit, or since it's aged already, can I pull the burlap off, apply the manure, and plant this year (bonus - I wasn't expecting to use this area this year, still may not if rain gets scarce again).

Thanks.

If I had a new garden area with poor sandy soil I would put as much as a couple inches of that stuff down and till it into the first 6 inches or so. Great stuff!

What about the "dung balls"? Isn't that an indication that it's not fully composted, though it looks like gray clay, not manure/bedding?

Well, even if it's not as high in N(and P and K) as fresh manure or just-finished compost, at least it's OM, which we desperately need. Just trying to build the topsoil - the "topsoil" we brought in was probably really subsoil since it has *zero* OM in it. Think it would be OK to plant in directly (spread thickly on top of the sandy soil)? Should at least be near-neutral pH, not sure how many nutrients are in it, probably no more microherd if it's that old?

Lloyd

So, I looked up how to sterilize soil with boiling water. That lead me to thread on garden web suggesting a book which you can get on Kindle called Potatoes, Irish and Sweet. Since the book was low priced I bought it. I was disappointed to find that it was only a booklet and very short, but it did have some information. This information was unfortunately not clear at all.

Potatoes, Irish and Sweet, said 5 gallons of water poured over three feet of soil, and put plastic over the soil. Five gallons is too heavy for me, so I would have to use a smaller amount that I could boil in a kettle. So, I would have less than 3 feet to be working with. So I thought I could just put the soil in a big metal pot with a lid outside. Go inside and bring out the boiling water in the kettle pour it over the soil. Put on lid, let pot sit outside until cool. Then add to compost bin. I don't know if that would work, but boiling water is 212 degrees and the water must be 180 degrees for 30 minutes to kill stuff. So, I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this would work or not? I don't want to pour it over my soil, because I love my earthworms, so if I was doing this in a pot, I could carefully remove each worm and replace it elsewhere in the garden.

The book Potatoes, Irish and Sweet taught me things about growing potatoes that I never knew before, but it is overpriced considering how short it is. For example, it said sandy soil produces a low yield of potatoes but low quality. Clay soil makes for a high yield of potatoes, but they are not so good in quality. But, I guess if one was starving, they would want the clay soil. If you were a gourmet you would want the sandy soil.

Farmers have been spreading manures on fields without tilling it in forever. It is a very common practice for horse farms where horses spend time in stalls to get rid of their stall waste by spreading it on their pastures. You can google "manure spreader" and find them in all shapes and sizes. It is generally recommended that what you spread has been composted, but most stables that I know who spread as a management practice muck stalls by throwing the waste straight into the spreader to be spread in the next few days.

If you spread it raw it is best to do it on areas that aren't designated for grazing. The next best option is a field that is resting in your pasture rotation schedule, but again I know a lot of people who spread it right on a filed currently being grazed. From a stable management perspective the issue with doing this is the spread of internal (equine) parasites. People who do this type of management who have their horses on a regular worming program don't seem to have problems. As far a forage management it is usually fantastic for the grass/soil and doesn't burn it. (Although horses generally won't graze on fresh spread areas so it can limit the available forage in a pasture that has been spread.)

The other thing to know about horse manure is that it's C:N ratio is generally 15-25:1 which is pretty great for composting. How fast it composts is related more to what bedding material is used, but in all honesty from what I've seen over the years (and I seen a LOT of horse sh!t) you can't keep the stuff from composting.

If I had to guess I would say that 40 year old manure at this point is nothing but humus. In all likelihood, especially if you aren't seeing left over bedding material, the stuff composted, finished composting, then slowly worked its way to becoming humus. The horse apples that are left don't bother me a bit. From my own experience I would say that the "apples" are more a reflection of how often the pile has been stirred up--a friction thing more than a composting thing. As long as when you break them open and they smell clean I think you are good. My compost is currently at the state ag department being tested--a mere $20 investment if you really want to know what you have.

I know plenty of horsepeople/gardeners who put fresh from the horse manure straight on plants without any burn and get great results. I also know several who grow potatoes in bags of stall leaving that's on the fresh end of things and watermelon and cantaloupe vines that are planted straight on the manure pile. I think the thing I would be more concerned about with really old manure would be if it were dry and you were breathing in dust particles from it.

I would also tell you that horse people are some of the healthiest people I know. It's probably the combination of all the exercise, fresh air and the inconveniences of getting sick when there are horses that need caring for every single day! I muck it, walk in it, brush it off horses, pick up horse feet (that surely walked in it) touch stuff every day that has been in direct contact with horse manure--then my face gets scratched or my mouth gets wiped... I'm sure there are pathogens that we need to be aware of when we deal with manures, but if they were as great of a risk as they are sometimes made out to be around here I assure I...and all my friends...would be dead by now.

I established a new vegetable garden this year. I tilled a 15' x 45' area then put 10 front end loader full of 6+ month old horse manure compost on it. For your math that would be about 12-15 yards of compost. I then spread it somewhat evenly over the whole space. (Ended up being about 2" to 3" thick) I did NOT till it in. As I planted plants and put seeds in I dug the compost into those planting holes and seed beds incorporating it with the soil. Then I used the compost to mulch around the plants. I have clay soil so it was the addition of OM that was my main objective.

I also am establishing new perennial beds. Last fall I dug in compost in those beds, but planted very few plants. This spring I put in the perennials then used the same compost as a 2' mulch around the plants and across the beds. Those plants are now growing like gang busters! Your less than an inch recommendation sounds more like the type a advice we get for putting compost on establish pasture. I missed in your OP what the usage will be for the land you want to put this stuff on.

I have no idea if what I did is the "right" thing--someone else is more than welcome to come on here and say I'm crazy--but the gardens I've done this with are the most amazing gardens I've ever had.

I doubt I will continue to use the compost at this rate as the beds get established (unless future soil test indicate I should.) I would strongly suggest a soil test on your manure if it is to be a significant part of your management plan. It is possible if the stuff is now more humus that it will add very little to the soil in terms of fertility that say peat moss would add. Then again maybe not you won't know unless you test -- or can wait and see results.

I do plan on using it on the newly-established veggie beds, which are pretty much just 2ft deep sandy loam - no OM at all, no N, P, K, Ca or much of *anything*. Though Dad doesn't trust soil tests - says he used this same soil (from another part of our farm) for his garden and it grows fine. Told me to put this "black gold" on it and it will grow like gangbusters. I wasn't planning on planting those beds this year, was going to try to get them in shape (already limed - pH was about 4) but if I can grow in a top layer of this stuff then I will try.

I figure I need all the OM I can get in this soil - and this stuff being composted should be about neutral pH at least. Just not sure how much NPK is in it, but gotta be better than what I have currently. Soil tests are free, but taking a long time as the lab is backed up (took 2 weeks for my first tests on these beds, still waiting been 2.5 weeks for tests on my existing beds).

I did end up having 2 questions, didn't make it clear. First was how much to put (how thick) on these new beds, second was on hayfields. But I'm going to look for fresh stuff for hayfields, I don't think the composted stuff will help much. I didn't retest the fields, last year indicated needed small amount of lime, pH 5.7, some fertilizer as was low in N and P (but fine in K, Ca, and high in Mg). Of course all we managed to do was mow it once last year, it was so wet. I really want to plant alfalfa to break up compaction and bring up the N and P, but Dad doesn't want to have to mow it so often and says horse people won't buy alfalfa. I'm more concerned with making the land productive again than selling hay, I'll use alfalfa for mulch/compost on my vegetables if I can't sell it. But I'm kind of tied to what Dad wants for the hay, since he's the one who does the haying. He grew up on this farm and it's really hard to get him to admit that I own it now and "let" me run it my way (if I insist, I'm on my own).

I bought hay last summer for my garden uses and would never use alfalfa.

If you are concernded for some reason of the compostion of your hay field run a drag over it, top dress it with your manure, seed it with a pasture mixture of grasses.

Rent a hydro-seeder for best results.

Also sounds like you are agriculture--is there an extension agent you can talk too? I have mixed feelings about them myself, but I understand that a good one is worth their weight.

I don't know that putting this stuff on will help much with N, maybe P if the P doesn't leach out like N does. Everything just needs lime and reseeding. But I noticed the hayfield was really compacted when I took the soil samples last year.

Just wondering - why do horse owners dislike alfalfa? It's very nutritious. What do the horses/owners prefer?

If you are planning to spread fresh stuff on a field there are some guidelines as to how much to spread per acre per year. The danger of spreading too much is the same as using too much fertilizer...plant (crop) damage due to fertilizer burn.

Let me get this straight...you went into a field that has been growing a turf type crop for an indeterminate amount of time and just because the ground was hard you think it's compacted? Under the same conditions of moisture I'd test your yard and compare. If it means that much to you there is a probe that will allow you test field compaction. By the way, a test of field compaction tests a pattern (such a the letter Z) across the entire field, not a single location.

as to why horse owners don't like alfalfa...that has to do with digestive tracts. Alfalfa is actually too strong for the simple digestive tracts that horses and related animals have and can cause colic-y symptoms. The much more complicated digestive systems of cattle allow those animals too draw all the nutrients from alfalfa.
As to how much to put into a garden, that's a f

LOL.

I have just GOT to get my horses to stop drinking those Dr. Pepper Big Gulps!

Because it is a legume alfalfa has very different nutritional properties than other popular types of hay like orchard grass, timothy etc. The balancing concentrated feed that should be fed with alfalfa is oats. When fed together they are consider a "complete" feeding program.

Today there is much research and effort happening to improve the concentrate offerings for horses. One horse feed company will easily have a dozen different blends of grains and grain products designed for horses in different types of work and lifestyles. These feeds are blended to be "complete" when fed to horses on pasture or a non-legume hay. With all the effort in designer feeds no one wants to promote plain old, been around for thousands of years oats--how could it possibly be any good? ;-) Their ability to mark up and increase the profit margin on plain old oats is very limited. So if oats are out, alfalfa is out.

All this feeds into a long association of alfalfa being the hay of choice for race horses, giving the mostly mistaken impression that alfalfa makes horses "hot." Hot as in fresh and full of themselves and more difficult to ride. tracydr is right in that it can be a great choice for some horses, and as a part of a nutritionally balanced diet isn't any harder on their digestive systems than other hay--as long as it has been produced to the highest standards. A cow can eat moldy hay and it won't kill them, improperly cured, stored, handled hay can be deadly for horses.

Alfalfa is very low in sugar (and high in protein) so can be a good choice for insulin resistant (sort of like old age diabetes in humans) horses. That same feature would also indicate it is not the likely cause of making horses hot. If alfalfa makes your horse hot you should consider if you previous diet wasn't giving them all the nutrition they need!

What I prefer to feed is fresh mixed grass pasture. I spend an inordinate amount of time, effort and my feed budget on managing my pastures to be the most significant source of nutrition for my horses. (This is the big reason I compost as I refuse to spread raw manure on fields that horses will graze on.) I view concentrated feeds as supplements to my forage program which is opposite of what most people with performance horses do (or can do.)

Now back to you normally scheduled GARDEN forum. Sorry for the long windedness!

Lloyd

No fancy air seeder - thanks for the info on horses and alfalfa. Funny I was thinking of growing some oats as green manure b/c they will winter kill.

As far as tilling it in, yes fresh manure needs to be tilled in since lots of the N will escape as ammonia if it's left on the surface. Which is why I don't think there would be much left in this old stuff that was piled up and left to weather.

Extension agent said they can test it just for curiosity, but said while I'm waiting for results just go ahead and put 3" on, till it in, then put another 3" or so on. He did say to skip the rock phosphate until we test the amended soil, since there may be a fair amount of P left in this stuff. He was just concerned that I don't have a good source of N - suggested cottonseed or soybean meal but I'm worried about pesticides, GMOs (same with alfalfa). Any suggestions (not blood meal or fish meal either as we have a lot of predators around and I don't want to attract them)?

I have lots of coffee chaff (about 2% N, same as UCG, but harder to handle). Unfortunately not too much finished compost, though my leaf pile (with chaff added) will be done in another month, it's looking great, but will likely only yield 2-3 5-gal buckets once it's cooked down. If I could find more browns right now to mix the chaff with I could have a good supply of compost over the summer, but browns are hard to find this time of year. I have to contact owner of furniture factory for some more wood shavings, but they've got a waiting list.

But I was doing some more reading, the agent said that a legume cover crop can't supply all the N that a veggie crop will need the next year, but I think I'm going to try it anyway. I told him that I was trying to build the soil, planting there this year would be a bonus, but all the amendments he suggested were pretty soluble and if I don't grow veggies there this year might end up leaching N. So I'll wait and see how much rain we get in May, get the soil tested after the lime and the "humus" and the RP, I *may* plant some potatoes (and use the bloodmeal I have to fertilize just those, hope the bears don't go digging) if the pH is good for them, and just throw my oats or maybe some clover on (oats will winterkill but won't add any N, just OM, but I hate to have to deal with the clover next spring).

He was just too focused on feeding the (hypothetical, at this point) crop, and not the soil. What I'm trying to do is build the soil so that I can grow something there next year (and later years) without putting down water-soluble fertilizers every year.

The soil test came back from my old garden area we built over 3 years from mostly from decomposed wood chips, kitchen/leaf compost, and lime. Last year the pH was 6.4, N was Medium High, P was Medium, K Medium High, Ca and Mg Very High. I had beautiful peppers (tomatoes and squash were another story but that was b/c of too much rain), didn't grow a cover crop after harvest, and this year the pH is 6.1, N is still Medium High, P is Medium Low, K is High (? Not sure how it got higher), Ca and Mg are still Very High. I *could* throw down a little lime but have to watch the Ca, again, could put some bone meal in with the transplants but obviously just "compost" along with liming the native soil has been sufficient for us to grow some really nice veggies the past couple of years, and will probably do fine this year.

I don't know why the new beds are so low in P, K and Ca, soil taken from a different area (same area my dad took some from a few years ago and he says his garden does fine). But I think that if we can just work in enough OM (though it might be 40-yr old manure instead of 15-yr old wood chips) along with lime and the RP I just put in, it ought to be fine in a year or 2. Esp. if I grow a legume cover crop in it this year (and maybe next), and continue to rotate crops including cover crops, and collect more leaves (and compost them with the coffee chaff) this fall.