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| Hi :)
I've already posted this in the tomato section and was advised there to ask for an opinion here. I'm relatively new to gardening, couple years of experience only. So anyways: Friend and I cleared a plot of land in his garden. It was covered mostly by some low thorny shrubs and some young Black Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) trees. After clearing a small area where we intended to plant tomatoes, we took some samples from 20cm depth and send them to analysis. Due to holidays, results were late and we had to plant some of the overgrown tomato seedlings before the results came in. Since nothing was cultivated there for more than 50 years (that we know of, possibly more), I've expected it to be fairly fertile. As it turns out, apart from acidity (pH 6,52) and C:N ratio (9,4:1), not many things went our way: Organic matter level is 2,58% humus.
Recommendation from the lab (not organic):
What should we do? 70 tomatoes are already in the ground. How do we make them happy? And what can we do with the part of the plot that we haven't planted on yet?
We'd like to keep things organic. For this 1st year we'd just like some nice tomatoes. When we finish picking in autumn we will have a clear plot and more time to dedicate ourselves to improving soil quality. Thanks,
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Follow-Up Postings:
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| For now get some liquid Algoflash, Miracle-gro or what ever liquid tomato fertilizer is handy for you for this year. Add a heavy shot of liquid Ironite, I was amazed how well that worked when used for the first time and standard amount of Superthrive for the first dose. Make sure there is a dirt bowl, I make mine five inches or so in diam., around each tomato (even if you have to dig them out, make sure they are planted as low as possible nearly covering all but the upper most branches) and pour, with a watering can, the mixture over the plant till it fills that bowl. For the first dose or two more than doubled the listed dose. (I worked for the horticulture dept. at the Minn. zoo one summer and we heavy dosed for intial fertilisings) Watch them and fertilize at a set frequecy or as needed. One year a mail order firm sent me some plants that were all but dead, one was, and after I did this they out grew the tomato cages just like all the healthy ones I planted. |
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| Much of what is readily available in the USA may not be available in Serbia so suggesting Algoflash, Miracle Gro, and such means little aside from neither being organic. What I don't see are the Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) levels which may be of more importance with tomatoes to help with Blossom End Rot, although the soil pH (6.5) is good. Watch those plants to see how they grow and mulch them to be sure soil moisture is adequate so growth is even and not done in spurts when soil moisture might be available. Not knowing what nutrient sources, other than animal manures, might be available in Serbia makes suggesting what to do a bit more difficult, but if fish emulsion and kelp meal products are available they may well be a good substitute for this year. Applying fertilizers above the recommended rates anytime is not a good idea and simply results in wasting your time, energy, and momey since the excess nutrients you apply just flow into the ground water and pollute that water for people that live downstream. |
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| Well the people I worked with were professional educated horticulturalists and they say the opposite about intial fertilizing. It was reduced after the intial series. Algoflash is a French product I believe so that should be available there. |
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- Posted by lazygardens PhxAZ%3A Sunset 13 (My Page) on Sun, Apr 22, 12 at 18:44
| What should we do? 70 tomatoes are already in the ground. How do we make them happy? Water them. Most plants are far more tolerant of soil conditions than you think. Amend with compost as you acquire it and don't panic until you see how the tomatoes react. In theory, according to the soil analysis, tomatoes should do poorly in my garden. But the SO spent the afternoon hacking them out with a machete. |
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| The laws in EU and therefore here are very strict when it comes to organic food and growing in general. If any pesticide or artifical fertilizer has been used, by law you must have 3 years of "cleansing period" with no chemical usage on the plot, and only after that you may call your product "organic". At the moment we are planting on just 1 are for ourselves and families, but since we could expand the plot to 10 ares (~1200 sq yards), we've had a brief discussion of maybe growing some for the market next year. That's one of the reasons why I don't want to use anything artifical. Main reason ofcourse is the sheer quality of food and the ecological/environmental aspect. Anyways my thoughts on this before i got the results were around what lazygardens said. For a couple of years I've been growing many different varieties of tomato in my own garden, with great success and without ever doing any soil tests. But then i got kind of intimidated by the numbers in recommendation that came with the analysis results. At the moment i think we'll just use some aged manure and compost, then at autumn we'll induce more organic matter into the soil. Thank you all for sparing your time to check through these results and give your opinions. And sorry if my english has gotten a bit rusty. |
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- Posted by idaho_gardener 6a_sw_idaho (My Page) on Mon, Apr 23, 12 at 1:15
| I would recommend avoiding both "Ironite" as well as avoiding putting any Phosphorus in the soil. Ironite is made from toxic mine tailing containing lead, arsenic and other nasties. Google it. Adding Phosphorus to the soil prevents mycorrhizal fungi from growing. Google the words 'mycorrhizal tomatoes' and then buy some commercial tomato inoculation for the soil. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Link to scholarly study of mycorrhizal fungi and tomato yields
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| The BS about Ironite is johnny-come-lately god wannabe "experts" who want to hear themselves verbally flatulate. "Gardeners have used Ironite since 1956, and the company has never been sued, fined, cited or linked with any health concerns regarding lead or arsenic. Several experts and a number of published reference works confirm that the lead and arsenic in Ironite - basically, raw ores of the metals - are in the least toxic forms of those materials." Here in Minn. the gov. "experts" temp. banned its sale but that went bye-bye as their bs was flushed. |
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- Posted by idaho_gardener 6a_sw_idaho (My Page) on Mon, Apr 23, 12 at 11:01
| RpR, ad hominem attacks are poor behavior. Stop. RpR has taken that quote out of context. Here is the very next line after the one quoted by RpR; "But experts said weather, erosion, local soil and water chemistry and even microbes in the soil can change a fairly safe form to a more toxic one." As I said, Google 'Ironite Arsenic Lead' and then make up your own mind. More of the quoted article "...The Dallas Morning News commissioned tests on Ironite and reviewed tests performed by a university geochemist and those provided by the manufacturer. The test results were consistent: Samples of Ironite in its granular, boxed form contained an average of 2,677 parts per million of lead and 3,972 parts per million of arsenic, in addition to the iron that is the fertilizer's namesake. Experts disagree on how many years of repeated use it might take to raise soil concentrations enough to be of concern. In West Dallas and other neighborhoods, the Environmental Protection Agency has launched cleanups of residential yards if soil had more than 500 parts per million of lead or 35 parts per million of arsenic." Below is the link where you can find the quote buried in a 1998 article. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Old article about toxicity of Ironite
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Mon, Apr 23, 12 at 12:07
| I was not particularly aware of the arsenic and lead in Ironite. I haven't used it but in my humble opinion those totals are too high for me to want to put that in my yard. Here in MO a total lead value of 260 is considered safe for residential yards, and arsenic is in the range of 10. So Ironite is 100x higher in lead and 400x higher in arsenic. Yeah, it would take awhile for it to build up, and the bioavailability thing *might* make a difference, but sheesh. There has to be a better way. |
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| Idaho look up ad hominem as I was not speaking about you but lies put out there by "experts" who like to hear themselves speak and to heck with the truth but if you wish to make this personal fine. "Recent studies conducted by Paul J. Eberhardt have found: Ironite increased the yield of dry red chili peppers by more than 800 pounds per acre; root length averaged 200 percent longer in Ironite treated pots of perennial ryegrass lawns; Ironite used at low rates (1.5 pounds per 1,000 square feet) increased the root system of sweet corn more than 45 percent. Other crops being tested at this low rate of Ironite include broccoli, tomatoes, cantaloupe, Swiss chard, squash, cotton and common ryegrass. It is amazing that all the sky-is-falling attacks on Ironite SEEM to be eight of more years old, the Dallas Newspaper article is 14 years, and the item just faded away except for people scare mongering with false claims about Ironite from eight or more years ago on the inter-net. As I said the the self-righteous god wannabes in Minn. tried to get rid of it, but failed and this state would ban farting if they could. Does not say much for so called experts opinions.
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Tue, Apr 24, 12 at 12:17
| Hmmm. There is certainly no one fact on either side of the scale here, there are numerous ones, which is why they call it Risk Assessment. It's somewhat of a judgement call. And depending on what methods you use, there are various possible outcomes. Case in point: One thing about an LD50 test is that it tests acute toxicity. How much of the product did it take to kill 50% of the test animals? Or in this case, apparently, how many were killed at a certain max. dose. It does not test disease other than death that is caused by chronic toxicity. For example, lead poisoning in children that decreases their intelligence usually occurs over a period of time, as does the exposure to dust, paint, contaminated soil or contaminated food. I'm just making an obervation about how complicated this is. Now, I'm off to calculate the rate of increase of Pb at the stated application rate. |
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| RpR, I plant my tomatoes up to the first true leaves & leave them in a 18-20 inch dish or bowl. It has worked for me for 5 years. I water 2-3 times a week. |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Tue, Apr 24, 12 at 12:32
| All right. Using 1.5 lb/1000 sq. ft as stated, with a Pb concentration of 2677 mg/kg, and assuming the top 6" is being treated and that soil weighs about 1.5 tons per cubic yard, I get an increase in lead concentration from one application of 0.07 mg/kg (ppm). This is quite insignificant in my book. Even after 100 applications, the soil would be 7 ppm Pb, which is about the low end of natural background in my area. Anyone is welcome to check my calculations. The same would follow for As, at least on an order of magnitude scale. In my business I rely on such numbers, and even though something might look scary at the outset, if you crunch the numbers using methods you've already accepted, you have to trust the results. In this case the questions about acute vs. chronic and the bioavailability of the metals are rendered moot by the very small total concentrations. Just my opinion, YMMV. |
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| RpR, I have had some experience with the "professional educated horticulturists" and often I find, especially those employed in the business of selling something, they will give advice based on selling some product, not what is really needed. One year, just as everything was leafing out we had a very hard frost here and a person with a degree in horticulture, who also owned a nursery, sold to someone a Bayer product to "fix" the frost damage. I have had people with degrees in horticulture tell me that soil is simply there to anchor plants in the ground. However, all of this is getting far away from what the original question was. |
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| Yes, it's gone too far, thank you kimmsr :) Anyways, i bought and applied some organic 5-3-2 fertilizer on the tomatoes in the ground (granulated, probably fish emulsion based), and planted new ones in a mix of garden soil, bagged compost and another fertilizer (humus-like, 89% organic matter). In autumn i shall add generous amounts of leaves and grass and let them over winter for next season. Thank you all for helping me out ;) Cheers |
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| Djole, if you have not seen these simple soil tests before they may be of some use to you in working on getting that soil into a good, healthy condition. Just another tool you might want to use. 1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains� too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. |
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| 3, 4 and 5 seem to be in order. I haven't actually counted worms, but I run across quite a bit when i dig (hence why i thought it was fertile land before the results came in). I'll test 1 and 2 next time i go there. Oh and another thing: i got loads and loads of chopped grass coming in these days - it grows very fast now and i have to mow the lawn every 5-7 days. If i'm to spread it around the plot in autumn, how do i preserve it until then? Bags? Pile on the plot? I don't have any compost containers available at the moment. |
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- Posted by rosiew 8 GA (rosemarywalsh@bellsouth.net) on Sun, Apr 29, 12 at 12:40
| Djole, perhaps consider spreading each week's grass clippings in the garden, as a mulch/topping. It will conserve moisture and break down. Recommend fairly thin applications to help prevent clumping. HTH, Rosie |
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| Djole, 5 is not in order. I have gardened in the same soil for over 5 years, at least 3, sometimes 4 seasons per year. My soil is full of non plant life, but no-not one earthworm. IMO, it is because my sandy lite loam soil is on the dry side. But no earthworms, I have fruit beetle grubs,pill bugs, termites,roaches,crickets,grasshoppers, dragonflies,moth, butterflies,beetles,wasps,ants,spiders in my compost 7 garden, so I have life. One poster said he could not find #5 in the NRCS data banks. I did not check, because I know it is untrue on my little ten acre lot. |
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| @Rosie Thanks for the advice, i'll do that. I've already mulched with bark but it shouldn't be a problem to add grass as well. @jolj |
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