To me Gardening is one huge experiment and something where there are no hard n fast rules - only guidelines. And of course each year we strive to make it better than the last.

Having said that, me thinks you has to start somewhere. Some may have moved over the winter months and therefore were not able to begin preparing the soil in the fall.

The first garden comes anytime after that it takes planning. I think one of the BIGgest mistake the beginners make is making the garden too BIG. Then in the heat of summer they give up on all the work the weeds bring. So start small, give yourself room to grow tho, so leave an area to begin preparing for next year while you plant in a smaller area.

Choose an area that gets "Direct Sunlight" for the longest part of the day, NO shadows. So another biggest mistake is planting in an area which does not get "Direct Sunlight" and expecting plants to flourish, cuz we want them to ;-)

So to begin...
1. Choose a sunny area for the garden.
2. Get a professional soil sample BEFORE adding amendments.
3. While waiting for the soil results - make a list of the things that you like to eat, plant only those things in an effort to start small. Keep in mind that most tomato plants produce enuff fruit to feed the neighborhood. The same with squash plants which can take up a 4x4ft bed.

Speaking of beds - consider raised bed gardening. You will be surprised just how much you can grow in a 4x4ft bed without ever tilling the soil.

Normally a winter sport but read up on things like SquareFoot Gardening, Intensive Growing, and Lasagna Gardening.

obtw- start a notebook for things you want to do - then add what went well and what needs imporvement for next year.

IF you are like me you will forget over the winter so write in the garden book just as soon as you think of it.

HTH

You can "do more" with less inputs in some cases with tilling rather than dumping a lot of imported soil onto your garden.

Dumping a lot of imported soil is a quick/easy solution, but for a large area it can be very cost prohibitive. If you have nutsedge it laughs at your amendments as a control method...not like tilling takes care of it 100%, though.

If you have bad pH or immobile nutrient problems, you'd have to dump a lot (8-12"+) of soil in order to compensate for pH adjustments without tilling. It takes a long time (up to 3-10 years depending on the soil) for top-applied pH amendments to move beyond the first 2-3" of soil. Immobile nutrients take less time, but unless you have really good and immediate root/worm action moving them it can easily take 2-5 years.

It's not uncommon for cotton farmers to disc 24" to adjust pH...which is quite extreme as far as tilling goes. It makes a huge difference, though. Cotton loves a 5.5-6.5 soil and it likes it deep in the root zone, not just the first 12-18" like a lot of crops.

Getting back to the home garden soils...they're mostly in such better shape than farms. It's not fair to compare tilling/no-tilling on a home farm to someone managing the same methods on 10-100-1000 acres. Many home farmers, after their modest amendments, literally have organic matter "to burn." The structure addition of the OM is more important than it's other benefits once you get over 5%. Anything in the soil below 1-2" is rather stable even after turning, especially if it gets a dose of irrigation after tilling.

Myself, I've never tilled a garden I've started after an initial priming of the soil...which usually involves dumping 1" of amendment (compost/lime) and forking/turning it in manually to a depth of 4-6" then adding another 2" of compost/topsoil on top (6-8" of topsoil/compost 75/25% for my raised beds). The mulch addition I add afterwards keeps it all stable and in place.

That's just what I do to deal with my heavy clay (red, non-heaving, slightly acidic) soils. There's many other ways I could approach making them garden-ready...all good ways.

No-till can solve almost any issue...but for some issues in some soils (and not a small amount of soils across the US), it's a matter of how much time are you willing to wait vs taking care of it manually. It's not destructive to till a soil if it's not useful to begin with and you can hasten it's better structure, pH, and/or nutrient content at the expense of "burning up" a little bit of native OM, especially for home gardeners which are most likely tilling in additional OM or green manures. The creation of "hard pans" in the home garden is highly unlikely unless you're tilling the exact same path through your garden with a 6-12 foot tilling rig attached to a 2 ton tractor every year...which most home gardeners aren't doing.

As far as earth worms...if you till at the right time of year you'll have minimal disturbance. If you till when it's late spring/summer/early fall...you'll disturb a lot more. When the soil cools down the worms move further down in the profile and disturbance is minimal. If you have grub issues, you can severely lessen their impact with tilling. I have some friends that only till when they expect they're going to have grub issues based on insect activity during the prior season.

We need to separate the "data/knowledge" of tilling vs no-tilling in the home garden vs the commercial farm. I think that trips up a lot of people's knowledge base.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 14:58

i'll be keeping my reply short and sweet so to say.

if you want to dig a garden that is your call if you choose to do raised beds that too is your call, there is no debate about it, no one charter should dominate.

what ever gardening you do you need to find affordable resources to bring in to aide that gardens growth.

over the past decade or more we have used raised beds, they are just the same as tilled beds but without all the seasonal tilling, not even double digging what a chore on the back.

there's no science and fortunately no need for science, the health of our plants tells us if the soil is right, we never PH test no need for it.

our main medium was spent mushroom compost as it was relatively easy to get and affordable, now we are using top soil from creating our building site. heavy work but once the beds are built that is it.

so no debate no satisfaction for skepticism do what you want it's that simple.

we use no fertilisers or manures, just green mulches and kitchen scraps.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens bale garden

I love gardeing and have had my own garden for 54 years. I now have 3 gardens totaling about 8,000 sq. ft. So I handle mine differently than the 300 sq. ft. gardener.

I do not apologize for doing some tilling to work in residues, amendments, rotted horse manure, leaf compost, shredded leaves, or any green or cover crops....plus any weeding.

I have good soil to begin with and since retiring, I have enjoyed increasing the depth and improving the tilth of the soils. Now is a pleasure to plant the beds in early spring as it is like an 'onion' bed....absorbs water like a sponge, and quickly can be worked after rains.

I have made the planting areas into wide unbordered strips for the most part...7 - 14 feet wide and about 35 - 45 feet long.

The more compost I add the better the garden becomes, but I don't buy it, I make it. I do use bagged wood to balance the greens from the kitchen. It's is so easy. The stuff you buy is not up to par with homemade compost.

"It's not destructive to till a soil if it's not useful to begin with and you can hasten it's better structure, pH, and/or nutrient content at the expense of "burning up" a little bit of native OM, especially for home gardeners which are most likely tilling in additional OM or green manures."

Just so. For example, it isn't useful to try and plant into sod, or other dense ground cover. One option if one does not wish to till up the whole of a proposed garden area, and don't have time to cover the whole of it and wait, is a hybrid of the two: remove sod and amend planting holes and cover/smother in between.

This is obviously about a vegetable or flower garden and not a permanent perennial garden. I think the distinction should be made. The vegetable garden will probably have much heavier feeding loads from the plants than the perennial garden. A perennial garden should just be heavily mulched and planted with plants that make sense for your site and soil.

I am a proponent of testing the soil and making amendments as required. I don't bring in soil unless I need fill. Even the worst soil around here just needs some OM and nutes. I just till everything in the first year and then I don't advise tilling after that. I just mulch the heck out of the beds with a fairly well composted mulch.

If I were super impatient I would mix up some 5-1-1 and grow in containers for a season or two and just dump the potting medium into the garden since it's just a big OM amendment. But then I have a ton of nursery containers.

Perhaps this video from Growing a Greener World might be of some use.

Here is a link that might be useful: GGW307

Good point, nil.

Kimm, let's keep this thread to our own experiences and opinions.

Come on pn, let's go out back,wrap your hands real good,throw on them gloves, get ready to rumble, this is the great debate!!!

Joe

"think that there is rarely any justification for moving soil or compost purely to make very thick beds over existing problem situations like sod, thick enough for plants to grow in right away. My reason is because involves such a large amount of fuel to gather and move the material not to mention labor. The primary justification for this strategy seems to be to avoid moving or turning sod or to obtain ideal growing conditions."

The problem with this debat is there are soooo many variables... You have to cover everything to have a level fair debate... For example, you mention bringing material in is a large amount of fuel, I cannot agree with you more, but how about the fuel for your rototiller, of manufacturing shovels, spades and other gardenin tools? We can spend all day debating on nitty gritty factors without even taking a chip off the brick... I agree with you, that if it's unnecessary to bring in amendments, why do it? But I do believe in taking advantage of byproducts of other businesses and saving things going to
land fills,etc.. A prime example is tree services delivering wood chips,free of charge... Yes it is polluting, tons of fuel,etc.. But, that is the world now a days, what do you want to do? Hide in a bubble with gas mask on, or do you want to take lemons and make lemonade, I'm taking advantage of what I can... I can say this, I do believe in no till, and I am very hard headed about the subject,bad several of you know already... but as we all know tilling might have it's place... I think I'm half the reason pnbrown made this thread.. Let me clear up another misunderstanding... I do not advocate stripping forests for topsoil, or anything harmful to the environment... I would much rather recycle your waste and make your own compost than
getting an inferior, polluting product shipped in... But with this world, it's kind of hard to be a purist, we all breath this polluting air... Sometimes I do wonder why we till, If you look at a field or some forests everything seems so lush and vigorous, the soil is darker than any, why couldn't we replicate this with our own gardens? Then you get intothe debate about growing a forest or a vegetable garden... Its never exatly level ground... But plants are plants, and they all have some similarities.. I can't see why we don't look to nature for more solutions...she seems like she grows things much Bette and effortlessly, and less polluting than what we are doing.. Then we get into the debate of, if we try and replicate nature we are not going to have enough food and we at going to starve... Then its going to start the mono crop GMO debate, than how currupt our society is debate, then me being the little nature boy saying forage for your food debate, than the debate of how nuts I am... Frankly, I cannot see this debate ever ending.. All I can say is there are thousands of way to garden, there are a thousand ways to get food, there are a thousand of ways to eat, there at a thousand of ways we could do anything.. Everyone has their own method... Everyone is at lead somewhat bias... It is merely preference... It is all opinions.. It's all just a debate... We can debate all day, and try to make our methods seem the most logical... But at the end of the day, this debate is just a place to wave our flag.. At the end of the day, people are going back to their ways, and their preferences... But their will be a day we all wave the same flag... Just not quite yet.. A debate is just that, a debate... At the end of it, it is likely we will not have very many solutions, just the same things that started this debate in the first place... I do have to say, I appreciate you making this debate, and I understand you have good intentions of helping people out...

Joe

"Sometimes I do wonder why we till"

Read above for plenty of reasons...and why those reasons are reasonable...with explanations of why they're reasonable.

"I can't see why we don't look to nature for more solutions"

We do, that's why we know when to till, how to best till, and what to amend vs. waiting years for nature to take care of it, itself. We also when to know when not to till, or at least when it's not necessary.

"ll I can say is there are thousands of way to garden, there are a thousand ways to get food, there are a thousand of ways to eat, there at a thousand of ways we could do anything.. Everyone has their own method."

Pretty much...

"But at the end of the day, this debate is just a place to wave our flag."

Not for all of us...not for most of us. Most of us are here to share and learn. There's a lot of balance in this thread, not absolutes. There's a lot of understanding multiple sides of a view based on what's been shared and learned in the past. I don't see any battle lines, flag waiving, or stand-offs.

"At the end of the day, people are going back to their ways, and their preferences."

Hopefully not if they're open minded or doing something incorrectly. I find that a lot of people are actually looking to expand their horizons here rather than pushing an agenda. Some things can be done better even if someone already knows a way to do something. A lot of people have put a lot of time researching and testing various subjects/things so the public at large can put it to use. Putting on a filter and sourcing findings by bouncing them off others is one of the better benefits of this board if you're not sure about something or you want to expand your knowledge on it.

I know a lot about soil, commercial and hobby breeding many different types of plants, and various scales of farming (6x4 ft garden boxes to 1000 acre farms)...but I never quit listening to others and reading literature. Just because I have some degrees and experience doesn't mean there's others out there (with or without degrees or experience) that don't have something to share that I can add to my knowledge base.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 0:34

Where do "you" go to have your soil tested. I'm looking for a reasonably priced testing lab. Here in Az the charges run from $60 to $80 per soil sample, at least that's the prices of places I know of.
Thanks

Here in NC we get "free" soil testing. Commercial fertilizers are taxed to fund it. It's available to any resident, home or commercial within the state.

Most people recommend UMASS soil testing because of it's price and their huge handling capacity.

I don't have experience with them, but other states (and some private companies) use their services.

As an aside: I know from experience and from others that Umass tests can return with zeros for some nutrients, without explanation that the likely cause is some problem with the testing equipment rather than a zero value in the sample.

Joe: I think you should very carefully read NC's post following yours, as he presents a very level-headed view. There is always something to be learned by all of us. I am impressed that he apparently read your post in detail, because it's very difficult to slog through a bunch of text without paragraph breaks. I did not read your whole post for that reason, however I did read your attempt to equate the manufacture of hand-tools with the moving of very heavy materials. That is of course an absurd comparison, because a comparatively small amount of energy can create a shovel which can then be used for many years to achieve huge amounts of work; whereas expending directly a large amount of fuel to move some material could be a great waste. This is why IMO it is so critical to move the best materials.

Your point about taking advantage of by-products or the moving of materials that would happening in any case is taken. That is common sense.

The OP point, I think, is that it requires considerable, concentrated effort - to start a garden from scratch in April for that year's growing season.

Speaking of my own experiences, moving onto 'new ground' as it were, each time I had to relocate and start new gardens, the first step is to try to determine which is the best spot in the yard re soil, water availability, and sunlight. It is surprisingly difficult to hit that trifecta. Murphy's law applies. So:

Rule # 1: - Start small.

Rule # 2: what ever and where ever you are doing that first year, its unlikely you will be doing it by the 3rd year, because of that optimum soil/sunlight/water issue.

Rule # 3 - start looking for cheap, plentiful, easily obtained soil amendments, and start adding them as top dressings or making compost. Looking back at the various places I've gardened, thats run the gam from spoiled maize by the ton, chicken litter from commercial farms, rotting cottonseed meal (phew-eeee) the guy who cleaned out the stables at the race course, to where I am now, which has gone from horse manure by the ton to grass clippings and home-made compost, and now, I'm looking into composted pine bark from beetle killed trees.

Rule # 4 - this is a long term enterprise, good gardens take years to develop - not just the soil, but the knowledge of what happens.

In practical terms, I always try to use existing soil, never bring it in, although some re-arranging on shallow soil may be necessary, eg making 'raised beds' by hoeing up lengthy mounds.

I've been using UMass for soil testing for years without problems. $10 per test is pretty hard to beat. Unless apparently you are in NC.

Another reason why a thread like this is important is it helps to understand that within North America there is a wide, wide range of conditions. When that fact is ignored or just casually tossed aside, it leads to people giving advice that often is not applicable or could lead to confusion of those seeking advice.

Climate affects soil. Not all zone 6s have the same frost dates. Not all zone 6s have the same weather patterns for that matter. Some full-sun plants may actually benefit from shade in some climates, etc, etc. When people ignore the fact that gardening happens within the realm of multiple variables and just assume because something works for them, it must work for all or because they read it in an authoritative book, then those people are not likely to be as helpful as they hope to be.

Joe says, "But their will be a day we all wave the same flag... Just not quite yet.."

Well, Joe, if we are all waving the same flag in this age, it likely would be a red flag...coercion of state rule...God forbid.

I do some tilling. I live next to a no-till farm. Both ways have advantages. If the time comes that I say that you should do it this way because I say so, tune me out.

I have hauled local amendments like peat moss and sand from local bog and pit...to very great advantage.....makiing dreamed of tilth in one day.

I have read of animals choosing pasture and hay from nutrient rich soil and leaving the adjacent area alone until they were forced to eat/graze there.

our new beds are showing to be a boon for saving on bending, yes a fair bit of work doing them but once done they are done, no manual work ever with tools, not much cost in delivery of iron, but again a once up great when we eventually sourced second hand material, that much less scrap to be transported 200+k south on the highway.

no special delivery trips the first roofing came with our fencing materials and the second lot was delivered when scrap merchant was picking up skip bins etc.,. so we created no extra use of vehicles.

did we need to do raised beds here? well no! not really the soil is good being brown clayey loam and red clayey loam over red volcanic clay, just our backs are getting older.

we have 6 magnificent beds full of produce, at the moment tomatoes coming out of our ears. big crops of brassicas on the way.

the soil we sue is on site, and currently we are again raking slashed grass for mulch - free.

len

ken1: Have you checked with Arizona Cooperative Extension for soil testing? Not sure what county you're in but there appear to be some resources here if you haven't looked at them already.

Here is a link that might be useful: Arizona Extension

AZ, oddly enough, sources all of their soil test work out to UMASS.

There's a great agriculture school in Tucson...too bad there's little industry supporting it around the area, though. Water rights/cost is a huge issue there. There's some good farming north of Tucson in Marana...some greenhouse projects to the east near Benson...not much actually in Tucson except some Federal/State/Tribal/Local parks and the desert museum...none of which are heavy employers.

There is a research area in a near Eloy, about half way between Tucson and Phoenix, but it's practically in the middle of nowhere on Highway 10.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 18:06

Posted by tishtoshnm 6/NM (My Page) on
Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 14:34

"Another reason why a thread like this is important is it helps to understand that within North America there is a wide, wide range of conditions. When that fact is ignored or just casually tossed aside, it leads to people giving advice that often is not applicable or could lead to confusion of those seeking advice.

Climate affects soil. Not all zone 6s have the same frost dates. Not all zone 6s have the same weather patterns for that matter. Some full-sun plants may actually benefit from shade in some climates, etc, etc. When people ignore the fact that gardening happens within the realm of multiple variables and just assume because something works for them, it must work for all or because they read it in an authoritative book, then those people are not likely to be as helpful as they hope to be."

Definitely bears repeating! Unless a person has gardened in zone 3 they have no idea of the challenges. There are a lot of differences between it and zone 6. I realize from reading garden forums that the warmer zones also have their challenges but they are not the same as mine.

There is no gardening possible between November and March here as the soil is completely covered with snow. Anyone up for tilling snow? I think not. Even now at almost the middle of April my perennial plants are only beginning to come up. We had almost 2" of snow yesterday which has melted and last week an inch which also melted quickly. Flurries forecast for this evening and overnight again. Spring garden clean-up has been done in between flurries but not much more will happen until the weather consistently stays warm. Even the weeds are not in a hurry to show.

As far as tilling is concerned, when we began to make the garden here in this coniferous forest with heavy grey clay resembling concrete with perhaps an inch of topsoil we used many amendments. We bought topsoil (who knows what it was but it was locally made and many people used it without complaints) and spent mushroom manure and hauled free sawdust and cattle manure. This was spread and tilled in. I also grew a cover crop the first year. At the time I didn't know of any other way to improve soil. However since then the only time the tiller has been used was to make new beds. Now I just spread the compost and mulch and the worms do the tilling. I think the no-till method *could* work in a new garden but it would be much slower than an initial tilling in this type of soil. Have to say I don't grow many food crops any more, just herbs and garlic, so growing market garden plants with high nutritional demands will require different methods for increasing soil fertility.

I've done pretty much the same thing - used a tiller the first few years, then let the worms do it for me.

I notice where my late summer, fall, and early winter cover crop was that there is not a weed there. The tillage [forage] daikon radishes were winter killed and hold onto nitrogen through the winter. They are deep rooted and till into the subsoil without digging. They also bring up minerals. There is no stubborn growth to kill....so nice to plant into.

ps I still like to till in residues, compost, shredded leaves, rotted manure, and any other amendment. Why do I get the idea that I need to appologize for tilling?

Ok so in the quest to answer which type of soil adeniums like I have taken 2 month old seedlings and planted my best 56 of 72 seedlings in 4 rows with the following mixes inspired by different mixes I have read about. Each of the seedlings started the first 2 months of their life from a 100% coir mix that came with Burpee seedling kits.
Four Mixes:
1. Gritty mix= soil, stone, sand, coir, chic grit equal parts.
2. Gritty mix/Coco chunks 50/50 mix
3. Coco chunks/Coir 50/50 mix
4. Coco chunk 100% mix

Planted, I'll report in winter or next spring if one row out grows the next!