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| Well I am not yet the average gardener. But, hopefully by next year I will be. Here's my situation. I have a plot about 60' x 60' tilled for my new vegetable garden. I know that I am late, but, I've been busy. My soil is sandy and nutrient poor. I believe this is from past flooding when the ground was tilled. I purchased 3 cu.yds. of compost from a local company. They claim that is all organic and vegetable garden safe. I also came across some partially composted oak leaves. I have about 70 garbage bags of them. The man that gave them to me said that they have been piled for over a year. I am sure some were from this past fall. The pile was about 3 feet deep and located in a shaded corner of his yard. They were wet and decaying. They were pretty dark. I have been shredding them. I have read that they need to be composted before tilling them in. I also read an article on Texas A&M site that they can be composted in trenches between garden rows. So I am thinking of tilling the purchased compost into my rows and using the trench method in between rows. Then in the fall I can till across the rows to work it all together. Please give thoughts on this. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by dchall_san_antonio 8 San Antonio (My Page) on Sun, May 8, 11 at 11:25
| Where do you live? Obviously you live in Texas but where? I'm thinking of a field trip for you but if you're hundreds of miles away, maybe not. I am anti-tilling. What benefit do you think you are getting from tilling? Or are you doing it because you read about it in every garden book? I believe the approach of tilling compost into the soil is well intentioned but misguided. The best way to get organic matter in the soil is to grow something. This is what cover cropping is all about. Find a cover crop for your area and let the roots become the organic matter in your soil. Clover is the typical cover crop but it does not seem to thrive here in Texas like it does east of the Mississippi. I believe the problem is our lime based soil with a pH of 8.0. I'm more of a grass guy, so I can't really help with the Texas cover crop for veggies. Flooding? Why do you get flooding? How often? How long does it stay flooded? Sandy soil usually does not flood because of the excellent drainage. Apparently you have a layer of something below the surface that holds water. You don't need to shred the oak leaves. I use other people's leaves, too. I dump them out of the bag, moisten them with a misting nozzle for several weeks, and let them go. If they ever dry out then I come back with the misting nozzle. After a year of being moist they should be decomposed to the point where you cannot recognize them as once being leaves. |
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- Posted by average_gardener none (My Page) on Sun, May 8, 11 at 11:57
| dchall, I am near Shreveport, La. The article from Texas A&M is something I found on the web. The property that I own is inherited. Since it is paid for, I will just have to deal with the flooding. We live at the bottom of a long hill and have a creek the runs through our property. It is flash flooding and it moves across the property like a river. It gets about 3' deep and goes down in about 6 or 8 hours, depending on the amount of rain. This has been occurring about once every other year for the past 7 or 8 years in the early spring. Gardening is usually a gamble. I just have to be prepared to replant if needed. I am confused as to why you are against tilling. My 80 yr old father has been tilling vegetable gardens for as long as I can remember. He also plants cover crops and rotates his farm animals through them (chickens and goats). I don't get to talk to him much. He lives in central La. Communication is difficult since his recent throat operation for cancer. He can't talk. He grows awesome vegetables. The garden that I am starting is on what was grass covered ground that I turned with a turning plow, and disc'ed about a month ago. I can't imagine making a 60'x60' garden without tilling. Please explain otherwise. |
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| I till every year & I am not 80yr.old. You do not have to till or no-till the chose is your to make. I like the working of the soil & I give crops away every year. So I must be doing something right, we organic gardeners have tilled the soil for hundreds of years. Tilling is the fast way to get large amount of fall waste in to the garden & forget it till Spring. A cover crop is good too. I found that tilling remove many over wintering bugs also. I keep hearing about the soil food web, but it is not as important as some think or it is a lot more resilient then they think. I have about an half acre of garden plot & will be adding more perennial plots soon. I can understand why someone with a 4 x 8 bed would not till. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Trench method between rows
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- Posted by average_gardener none (My Page) on Sun, May 8, 11 at 18:18
| Hi jolj, Thanks for the link. That really answers my question. If one can compost all the waste that this guy is trenching next to his plants with no ill effect, then surely tilling some rotted leaves between rows will be OK. This is my first post on the garden web. I was a little shocked with the first response on tilling. dchall, no offense, but, I have not read many gardening books. That's why I am asking you experienced gardeners here. jolj, no offense, but, I am not 80 yrs old, either. I mentioned my father's age to illustrate the number of years that tilling has worked well for him. I read several posts here about tilling in leaves before asking about trenching. I am just going to till them in between rows and use some to mulch. I agree about the cover crops. But, I am trying to get some veggies growing for summer. I have a couple of other tilled plots that I will plant with a cover for now. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reply to my post. You have both been helpful. |
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| Hi A-G, welcome to the forum. I am not a gardener at all so consider the source, that kind of thing. Pretty well all the farm ladies around here have their garden areas tilled (working in the manure/compost/straw etc etc) and I have seen nothing to make me believe that their plants are suffering. There is nearly always abundant harvest unless there is a "weather event" (late frost, hail etc) that damages the plants. I see nothing wrong with your plan. The only thing I might add is that I've read (Steve Solomon) that veggie gardens are more demanding than flowers so some supplemental fertilization, over and above the compost, may be required. Good luck. Lloyd p.s. There are tons of threads here and reading some of the past will likely fill in some of the blanks regarding personalities and other "issues". |
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- Posted by dottyinduncan z8b coastal BC (My Page) on Sun, May 8, 11 at 20:21
| Have fun with your garden! I believe gardening is an on-going experiment and I'm always trying something new. I've got an area of my veggie garden covered with leaves, then a layer of donkey poo all mixed with grass clippings. The worms are loving it, but it still looks like leaves, manure and grass! I'm planning to mix it up more and try making soil pockets in which I will plant squash and cucumbers. I think your idea of filling trenches with the leaves is super. Organic materials such as this really hold moisture and I think in Texas you will need that. You certainly are doing the right thing, finding organic materials and using them to grow food. Please post pics when your garden gets growing. |
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- Posted by greenbeans (My Page) on Sun, May 8, 11 at 21:12
| 60' x 60 is impressive. I'm a little jealous. I'm a no-tiller but most gardeners I know till at least once a year. From the research I've done, the break down between the 2 is like this: people who till have always tilled and it works for them so they keep doing it; it's really the norm. But more research is showing that sometimes tilling can be detrimental to the soil structure; and it also brings weed seeds to the surface. Plus tillers are expensive, heavy to use, and work to maintain. If you google "no-till gardening" you'll probably find more info. Regardless of your tilling decision, I would not till the leaves in since they will tie up nitrogen as they break down in the soil. And from what I understand oak leaves take longer than other leaves to break down.. You could till the compost in, but it would also be effective to simply top dress with the compost. One great use for the leaves would be mulch. You could lay it down in a thick layer in your rows; this will save you from loads of weeding, and over the summer the leaves will continue to break down right into the soil. If you can't use all the leaves right away, just pile them up somewhere and add them as needed. |
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| While a large garden plot like that is impressive and many people think they need something like that the Square Foot Gardening concept Mel Bartholmew writes about is better and much easier to maintain. More then half of your 60 x 60 plot will be empty space necessary for you to get to the rows you plant, wasted space in reality. The Oak leaves are better used as mulch and not tilled into the soil where they will, eventually, add organic matter to that sandy soil you have. What that sandy soil does need is organic matter, lots of organic matter that will help hold in the sand nutrients and moisture plants need to grow. It is much easier to get enough organic matter into smaller planting beds than it is to try and get enough into that 60 x 60 plot. |
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- Posted by average_gardener none (My Page) on Mon, May 9, 11 at 7:42
| kimmsr, I've concluded that I am going to use what I need for mulching and compost the rest. I live on 5 acres and we mow about 3 of it. I also have about 1 acre that I plan to clear a lot of saplings and brush. I can chip and shred most of it to add to the compost pile. Maintaining the garden should be less of a problem than in the past. I purchased earlier this year a Kubota tractor with disc, 4' tiller, cultivator, etc. I also have a Troy Bilt Bronco tiller for cultivating between rows. And best of all I have a good sharp hoe. |
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| Hi Lloyd, I have seen the photos & do not think anyone on the 5 sites I visit, knows more about leave & composting then you!!!!! average gardener, you will learn a lot of different ways to garden from this site. greenbeans makes a good point. If you would like to know more about no-till then Google Ruth Stout or Permaculture, we have a permaculture forum too. I will one day go with no-till because I will not have the energy to till & dig out paths. I am setting up my 4' X 40' beds so I can make the change when the time comes. And I have two children so I will have to set up two gardens & Orchards, maybe ornamental gardens, before the walking cane takes over. |
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| average gardener....can your dad type? use a word processor? It seems as he would have a huge amount of knowledge in 80 years of successful gardening. Why don't you ask him to write about what he knows concerning each veggie or gardening in general? Just take a topic, like seedlings or whatever, and ask him to start clicking away. Maybe a month by month thing, like "this is what I do in January", etc. It sure seems like he would be delighted to communicate to you a wealth of experience, and what an inheritance! (He might even start telling stories you never heard.......). Just 'cause he can't talk doesn't mean he has nothing to say. And with a computer, he can go back, add, move things around, etc. Just a thought. The amount of land some of you folks have boggles the mind. Three acres here, 5 there, hooboy............ Peace |
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- Posted by purpleinopp 8b AL (My Page) on Tue, May 10, 11 at 12:17
| I think tilling has become so popular for 2 reasons. First, it makes it easy to dig in the dirt, no doubt. Second, the desire to "have more organic matter in the soi." From what I've read and experienced through decades of practice, this is best accomplished by nature - worms, microbes, rain, plant roots. In nature, organic material would lay on the surface until the natural combination of these processes rearranges and redistributes these materials where they should go. I did start a new "veggie patch" this year by tilling up grass because of the "easier to dig" factor but don't plan to till this spot in the future, just add compost (and keep pulling up the grass as it pokes back up.) Whatever happens, you're getting good exercise and learning! |
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| You can have excellent gardens using several different methods....fall plowing if you have heavy soil. Raised beds of amended soil are very nice..... tilling in the row or spot where you want to plant. Where the weather is warmer, adding things on top the soil works better than in cold areas where the soil can be wet and cold. To till or not to till......With large gardens like mine, some tilling makes sense. Man, I cannot imagine planting large areas in heavy soil without some tillage at the proper time. |
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