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Mycorrhiza

Posted by blazeaglory 10 SZ22 OC Ca (My Page) on
Sun, May 20, 12 at 21:42

Root fungus. Anyone ever use it? Sounds good to me.

I used to leave my pots on the grass and bricks for weeks and when I would move them I would find fungus underneath. It was growing on the roots that grew through the bottom holes of the pots and form a nice web. I used to clean it off and the plants would never look as good so I ended up leaving it and the plants grew great. I guess that was the same stuff?

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has actually inoculated their soil in ground and pots with this stuff? I know through all the systemic anti fungal and sprays out there they say that mycorrhiza is very rare in most suburban and backyard environment. So has anyone ever "re introduced" this back into their soil?

http://www.growannex.com/nutrients/rti/mykos-22lb-bag

Here is a link that might be useful: Fungus amongus


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yes, blaze. Mycorrhizal inoculation has been a very successful commercial enterprise for many years. It is used for forestry, container and field grown nursery crops, agriculture, the golf course and sod farm industries, landscape installation, professional arboriculture, and much more.

If you would like me to link you up to some articles, just let me know.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I use this stuff that i got on sale at a place called koffer's in athens georgia. http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xtreme-gardening-mykos.html?opt=20 lb bag The bag has lasted about 3 years of gardening for me but if you have a large garden you may need a bigger bag. I use a measuring spoon and use about 1/4 a cup on a root ball of a plant before putting it in the ground. It works great and is very responsive to further organic fertilization. Very useful for soils with lots of clay.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yeah rhizo some articles would be cool. I always like reading about how that stuff works.

calypso that is the exact brand I was thinking about buying. I found it for less than $15 I think? Ive heard about this but never really explored it. I always thought it was kinda like roots for the roots


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Some plants, such as spruce trees, simply won't thrive unless they have the right mycorrhizal fungi growing on their roots. Other plants, legumes for example, fix Nitrogen in the soil when they have mycorrhizal fungi growing on them.

I just planted peas yesterday. When I bought the peas, I also bought the spores to inoculate them with the right fungi. It's standard practice. Researchers now speculate that 90% of plants will form a mycorrhizal relationship when conditions are right.

Two common garden soil amendments inhibit fungi; Phosphorus and Sulfur. The fungi will provide Phosphorus to the plant when there's a deficiency.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I looked up mycorrhizal and spruce but I could only find a pdf and if you look at it says nothing worthwhile, merely they are some fungi but does not say which one.There are so many different fungi, if you want to grow a spruce you could end up buying the wrong fungi. I wish east bay nursery was not the only place that sold the bagged browns that I like better. Since OSH stopped selling shredded wood, I use Kelloggs amend but it would be better if I used the more woody type of bagged browns, but I have to go all the way to the east bay to get them, cross a bridge, pay a toll. If you use shredded wood in your compost you can definitely get better fungi growing in your compost. But wood is more expensive now then ever. But, paper works too. Brown paper bags are good, I made some compost with more paper and less wood and it was a little finer in texture. I think wood is better for getting fungus going and compost made from wood may be good to put around needle trees like pines.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

So would the espoma soil acidifier kill off Mycorrhiza? I would think only certain types of sulfur kill fungi? The sulfur in the espoma is elemental sulfur and gypsum.

http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/Esp_Soil_acidif.pdf

All these things can possibly kill fungi...Sulfur, possible chlorine in my hose water, heat... what else??? Lol


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RE: Mycorrhiza

There is no question that in a good healthy soil the mycorrhizal fungi are very beneficial to plants. Because a large number of people are willing to seperate you from your money selling something that is supposed to be mycorrhizal fungi indicates there is a large market for magic elixars out there.
Since many fungi develop and grow in good healthy soils and do not live in soils lacking adequate levels of organic matter the question arises does "innoculating" your soil with some, fairly expensive, stuff that supposedly contains mycorrhizal fungi really do any good or should you just spend the time needed to make your soil good and healthy so those fungi will appear without you spending money on some stuff that may or may not contain any fungi.
It sounds to me that your soil already is populated with these fungi and there is no good reason to spend your money purchasing something that is supposed to have what you already have.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

calypsobloomer, Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi need live roots to stay alive (endomycorrhizal fungi) as they live within the root. I have not herd of anything that would keep it alive for that period of time. The best I have herd of is a shelf life of one year claimed by some companies.

idaho_gardener, Legumes have a symbiotic relationship with rhizobia ( a bacteria). Specific inoculants are used and sold for them. The Myco has also been found to benefit them as well.

blazeaglory, I doubt that the fungi that you observed on the bottom of the pot was the endo variety. It may have been a variety of ecto (which some are also beneficial. The endo live within the root cells and are microscopic. The roots, called hyphae are also microscopic. The roots are so small they can go between the molecules of clay soil. This is how they are able to extract nutrients which are normally unavailable to the plant roots.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Bacteria fix nitrogen in legumes.

The benefit of fungi (a different type of organism) to rooted plants differs and does not seem to be as well understood.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Here are some good summaries of the functions of mycorrhizae. I found the last link to be especially interesting, as it goes into the history of our knowledge and research of mycorrhiza. This is a science that has been studied for over 100 years. We DO know an awfully lot about how these organisms work...but the mysteries continue to unfold as we become more adept at research and observation.

The second link is a commercial site, unfortunately. Please just ignore the ads but take advantage of the many incredible images you can find in all of the different industry categories. It has a wealth of interesting stuff. Each category has its own set of photos, videos, and articles.

I cannot speculate on the benefits of any particular 'brand' of mycorrhizal inoculant. I believe that many are about as valuable as the plastic bag that they come in...not at all. I am aware of the different products that are used in research and by the different industries, but have no 'feel' for what is out there in the retail market.

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/factsheet_mycorrhiza.shtml

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/info-by-industry/

http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr_ne61/gtr_ne61_109.pdf

http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/shigo/RHIZO.html

http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/reviews/koide_mosse_2004.pdf


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Documented side by side tests have been done numerous times, nobody can explain why the myco treatments often work on annuals without getting into nebulous conversations about microorganisms that are way over anyone's head. Another comment, Bacteria are not the most important part of soil, as far as a head count, bacteria use a lot of oxygen. When I've experimented with myco, I used Garrett juice along with it, but did not carefully observe or record effects.

You add fungus to beer every batch, even though it's already in there, dontcha? What I don't reccomend is pushing the product, until the science if ever, is definitive. That's wasting people's time, money, and efforts when you don't really know. If it's a good product, it will come way down in price. Law of economics and historical supply-demand curve would come into play...just like every other efficacious product devised by man...

Mackel


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RE: Mycorrhiza

If I could get a spruce fungus, I would buy that, I am trying to grow a dwarf blue spruce, in fact. When I compost a lot of wood, after the hot stage I get the grey mold stage of fungus, but then that passes into the finished stage.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Kiss a cheezy spruce and you may get more than you bargained for...waita minute, that's supposed to be a joke...you can make the sacred pilgrimage...to the ethereal land under a forest spruce...and camp out there...and when it gets real, real dark...sniff around on hands and knees....and sneak that magic fungus

Mackel


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I was reading that in the symbiotic relationship between the roots and the fungus, the fungus exchange P and other nutrients to the host plant for glucose from the roots.

So would that make fruit on a tree with mycorrhizae less sweet? Or would the added nutrients to the plant increase the production of glucose and make up for the loss supplied to the fungi? Or is the amount really insignificant enough to worry? Phew


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RE: Mycorrhiza

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.USA (My Page) on
    Mon, May 21, 12 at 23:04

Is there a way to use surfer & Mycorrhiza on the same Blueberry plant? If not then how does one keep pH low & use Mycorrhiza?


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You would have to get a certain kind of mycorrhizae for blueberries. Blueberries fall in the %5 of plants that will not function properly with the "main" fungus. I think you need ecto? Or endo? I dont know youll have to look it up...lol

But I do know that fungicides kill it so fungicide in the soil would be a no no. I guess you would have to be reeeal careful when you apply the fungicide and if its a systemic forget it.

Guess what? Truffles are mycorrhizae that mate with Oak and Hazelnut!


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I'm having a hard time understanding spores and propagules. Are the propogules like clusters of spores that are released? You can buy from different commercial producers that advertise more spores or more propagules.
Also there are several products that advertise myco content but if you get the details you find maybe a lot of ecto and very little endo. So check out what you are really buying.
Something I found interesting is when checking out some Bermuda grass seed last weekend Pennington claimed a 50% less water usage on their grass as compared to other producers of the same seed. The difference is Pennington coats their seed with endomycorrhiza. I'm not suggesting you use Pennington seed but just want to point out they feel it is an important ingredient for producing better plants as they also coat other seed they sell.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Blaze, I have a list of different pesticides that adversely effect beneficial fungi. Somewhere. It's not only the fungicides that need to be considered.

There is no ONE answer regarding brix, unfortunately. I'll do some digging around for you.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Just using a fungicide won't make all the fungus die off. Have you ever sprayed for bugs, and within a few weeks there are more bugs? If the fungus is under the ground on the roots of the spruce tree or whatever plant you want it on. If you don't dig up the plant and apply fungicide to the roots, it won't affect the roots. But you would not want to spray a spruce tree with fungicide as it won't get fungus. If you get mushrooms in your garden now and then, you have fungus.

I think they could sell logs with fungus on them. They do sell mushroom logs for growing mushrooms for eating. I like to grow mushrooms for beauty because some of them are very colorful. I would like to see more types of logs being sold, not just for eating, but I love to see colorful mushrooms.

But, I did have a dog once who got sick from eating them, so it's a gamble. If they sold log with pretty but poisonous mushroom and someone ate them and died, they would be sued. If you use more wood in your composting and more woody mulches you will get more fungus. Some of them like pine needles. If you collect pine needles which make a nice mulch also you can get more mushrooms.

The question is getting the right type of fungus and then making them stay and live. If digging up the soil is bad for fungus, this is a problem. I like to dig up my soil and also I fluffy up the soil in beds to remove small weeds and allow more air and water into the soil.

It only bothers me that people are selling things that are not helpful to the garden. These things won't hurt it maybe but won't help. It's like wrinkle creams for ladies. The lady uses it, but it's all the marketing. She feels better about her face, but it is not really helping. It only makes her feel good.

You one could buy some kind of fungus spores that may or may not work or may or may not be alive. You won't see anything until there is a fruiting body, a mushroom, if there is a mushroom, and not all fungus make mushrooms. But, if you extra good care of your garden it will do better hence you think the fungus you bought is what is helping. I would not mind, but I do have to try to save money a bit, as bagged browns are really expensive when you buy a lot of them over time.

First we must ID the spruce fungus, then we have to figure out if it can be shipped and live in the mail. Then we have to figure out how to grow the fungus on the roots and make sure it growing when there is no way to tell if the culture has been successful. Too much coffee, sorry.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

i've heard so tales over the years i don't know what to beleive.

i've heard myco will prevent male pattern baldness and are effective vaccines against anthrax and bird flu. i've heard they are killed by uv light, wooden stakes, any kind of ground pressure meaning mostly large equipment but potentially as sensetive as mere foot traffic, silver bullets, and any kind of synthetic chemical or fertilizer.

but when you start to look for data to support half the claims they vanish.

first you hqve to understand the relationship of symbiotic relationships as opposed to parasites.

the myco may take glucose from the host but they also provide the nutrients that the host needs to make more. the role that myco plays for the host is that it enlarges and expands the root system and also plays a role making soil solution more available to the host. it's not a gimme gimme relationship, both reap rewards from it. so when the myco accepts the glucose it is surrendering another molecule to replace it. at times this can even be an exchange of glucose from myco to the host...it works both ways, making this relatiknship a mutually beneficial (symbiotic) relationship as opposed to an obligate parasite.

as far as success or failure of myco to survive its much more likely that this is a complex relationship that we are just beginning to know even exists...much less understand.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yes I was wondering if water soluble non organic ferts would harm the fungus? And what AND IF and which PESTICIDES will kill it? I was also thinking about how careful I would have to be when applying fungicides/pesticides to the plant as to not get any on the soil.

I would like to apply some fungi to a couple of my fruit trees and see what happens vs. NON inoculated trees. This is only my second year of serious outdoor growing and my first year of starting most of my trees but I would like to get an early side by side comparison of LIVE fungi results with fruit trees.

All of this has got me thinking about truffles and how much I love Oak trees. I was thinking about buying land in AZ or OR but now I think I know where I want to buy. The only place outside of Southern Western Europe that Truffles grow well is Oregon and certain parts of the South United States.

Yeah I love all the different fungi. I was looking at "magic" mushroom spores and syringes. I think the spores have already started to grow versus syringes so spores would be bigger/better to start with? Psilocybin I think theyre called? Alot of those are pretty cool. Some are more attractive than others...lol


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Blaze of glory, my understanding of magic mushrooms is they need to grow in cow dung. Someone told me this, and I know they grow farther north then where I live. You can look them up on a site called Erowid dot org if you want to learn more. They are used to treat headaches that are untreatable. Of course, if one was to find them in the wild, it would be too easy to take poisonous mushrooms instead of magic mushrooms. Mushroom are very hard to ID. They are also illegal, I think, there was a guy on tv who took them for headaches, but it did not say how it was able to buy them or if raised them himself or bought them. Being illegal the programs will not tell how to get them. People get them by going down the haight ashbury and walking around and saying things to people like "acid?" and sometimes someone will answer you back, then make a sale to you. But, if you ask an undercover cop, that's serious trouble. I would do this, but this is how people tell how they get these things, that I would never do or take.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yeah the mushrooms grow in cow dung but its a certain kind of mold that grows on the cow dung that the mushrooms like to grow in. You can duplicate the environment indoors but some mushees you have to finish outdoors. Most of them grow fine in soil but the best grow in the moldy cow dung...lol Yeah I wouldnt take them either.

Some farmers were actually giving their cows certain drugs to stop the mold from growing on the poop so kids would stop tearing up the farms looking for "shrooms"...lol


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Oh boy, only organic milk for me now. There is a great local diary here called Clover. It can't be good to drink the milk of cows that get those drugs.


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safe to eat mushrooms?

I would feel safer with something bought in the Haight-Ashbury vs. if I just picked myself from finding it. The point being even if it is dangerous to buy on the Haight-Ashbury it is even more dangerous to just pick and eat.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Haight Ashbury dangerous? Nahh..lol I would love to go if this was 1968-1969:-) Ive always wanted to visit. But I know some "people" who specialize in the field of "magic mushrooms" and they sem to visit from up north just after the time of harvest. I dont eat them but I know some people who do. Its funny and sad because these people would never hurt a fly and are the most calm and interesting people you would meet and because they love to "partake" in a certain fungus they are considered "felons" by our federal government. Oh well, that is a totally different subject. I really dont see them much anymore, anyways...

I was thinking. How would earthworms fare in a Mycorrhizae environment? Example: I buy a bunch of good compost with %10 worm castings and I apply the compost to a mycorrizae inoculated tree. The worms grow up. How would the worms do in the fungus roots? Would they leave or stay? Would they eat the fungus or would the fungus harm them? You know?


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I think the hyphae would be way to small for them to notice. They may even eat it unknowingly. I don,t think it has had much of an effect on the worms or the myco in the last million years or so. I don,t think I would worry much.
The only thing I can think of that would have any relationship is that the worms would aid in spreading the fungi by transporting spores from one spot to another.
In an earlier post I asked a question an received no reply ( Are the propagules like clusters of spores that are released? You can buy from different commercial producers that advertise more spores or more propagules)so I found the answer myself,
"propagules are primarily spores; whereas in spring, spores germinate, and propagules are primarily mycelia until sporulation occurs in the fall." this quote was from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/003807179390080U
So from this statement it seems that one should only buy products sold as spores and apply in the spring?
Also in this article it states there is a major decline in spore survival over winter. So it seems as though a cover crop would be in good order for vegetable gardens or is it low temps. that may cause a decline?
I do not beleive one would see much of an effect on plants that are already getting everything they need either by amendments or just having all the nutrients being already available to the plants. The fungi hyphae bring in phosphorus, nitrogen and water to the host plant, but it also brings in micro nutrients that would otherwise be lacking in the normal diet without the fungi.
The production of glomalin has been shown to improve both sandy and clay soils.
AMF also stores a tremendous amount of carbon.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

The Haight is actually a bit dangerous, but the danger from eating the wrong mushroom is what I was talking about. I think they should legal personally, but I don't take any risks like that. Have you been to the Haight lately? It's not good.


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novascapes... I did not know the answer to your question but Im glad you found the answer because that is pretty interesting. I would agree that it would be best to get spores and sow them in spring so they can propagate(correct term?) and also become established before winter.

I was thinking it would be better to use mycorrizae on plants that are being fed the "organic" route as they would pull more micro nutrients from the soil? I mean, I was thinking that considering MG and other high salt type of soluble fertilizers can harm and kill beneficial microbes, the best way to get micros to your plant would be to use the fungi. So I was thinking. I read this:

Synthetic fertilizers feed plants, but they do not feed the soil and can actually harm useful micro-organisms. Organic fertilizers are slow-release, and they work by feeding the microbes that break down chemical elements so plants can take them up. Miracle Gro provides nutrients in a form plants can take up immediately, but the salts and other chemicals upset the balance of the soil and can kill beneficial microbes, fungi and worms that keep the soil healthy...

So I was thinking and I was going to ask this in another thread but maybe you or someone else knows. If I am using an all organic route to feed my trees and MG harms the beneficial bacteria that is used to break down the organic material into nutrients, how would I supplement micro nutrients to my soil/tree without killing/harming the beneficial microbes in the organic fertilizer? You know?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Here is a question for you mushroom herders. In an annual vegetable garden, do you have to apply the fugus each season? Could you leave a specific perrenial plant in say each bed to hold the fungus over the winter on those living roots? Or do the fungi survive over the winter or produce spores that will attach to the new roots that grow the following year.

I have several raised beds with just tomatoes for instance. So should I plant a hardy perennial herb or two in the corners of the beds so that the mycorrihza have anchor points for the next season? would they spread that quickly in the following growing season?

I am trying to practice no till this season, so when I pull my plants other than root crops, I will simply snip off the plant at the soil level and leave the roots in the soil to decay. Does this improve the chances of a herd of shrooms staying behind and alive?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

blazeaglory: I have an uncle that has his doctorate in microbiology and was president of the ag. department at a Texas university. I have had many discussions with him about myco and other soil life in regards to the effect of fertilizer and herbicides when applied. I have also spent the last several years searching the web for answers to these questions.
I have found that it can kill some microbes. But at the same time stimulate growth of plants and supplies needed elements in the soil. The end result of applying the commercial fertilizer, in moderation, is more soil life not less. The problem occurs when to much fertilizer is applied at one time. Tests done at the university have shown that the application of fertilizer increased the AMF count. No more than 60 lb. N per acre should be applied and no P should be applied.
The cost of the AMF is high. This in itself will deter many from using it. I would suggest that a small amount be purchased and applied to a growth or rather propagation nursery for further use. You can go to youtube and see how to grow your own Also the mycos have been shown to spread at the rate of about 3 feet per year so if one wants to do an entire yard it could be spot treated and with a little patients end up with total coverage.
Beware of buying this stuff on EBay and some other sources as some are just purchasing it then diluting and reselling.
AMF is not a magic bullet but just an important part of a balanced ecosystem. A lot of it has been killed off because of leaving ground fallow and over fertilization.


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I found some organic micro nutrients and also Ive been reading that once you keep adding OM to the soil the fungus and tree roots basically get all the micros they need from the soil breaking down and bacteria farts/poop.

I guess they were right when they said to add more OM huh?? Lol


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I was at the farmers market and this guy sold mushrooms. He had a sign these are not organic. I was like what do you mean? He said, he used a fungicide to clear out the bad fungus that was keeping his good fungus (the eating mushrooms from growing) therefore we can conclude that all fungus won't shrivel up and die if you use a fungicide. If you are growing organic you won't use one anyway. I don't grow very much in terms of eating crops.


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Earthworms need much the same soil type, a goodly amount of organic matter, that the Mycorrhizal fungi do to exist in.
Think about this. Long ago Sir Albert Howard found these Mycorrhizal fungi while looking at the results of adding organic matter to soils and stated then that a mycologist needed to study the relationship between those fungi and the plants. These fungi developed that symbiotic relationship with plants long ago, before man even knew about it, and have continued that relationship except where we, man, have done our best to destroy the conditions these fungi need to exist.
If you provide the soil conditons these fungi need to exist you will have them whether you spend money to purchase any or not, and if you do not provide the soil conditions these fungi need to exist you will not have any even if you spend a lot of money on "innoculants".
Many mushroom growers use fungicides on the growing medium, to eliminate fungi that might compete with what they want to grow and then that now treated growing medium sits around, and is turned, for some time before being innoculated with the desired fungi to allow the fungicide to disipate so it won't kill off the desired fungi.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Sounds interesting...

So this weekend I went to buy some 24" concrete garden dividers at OSH (I dont shop there much due to sometimes high prices) and I found some of the good stuff for $14(No tax for Memorial Day!)...

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/Vc_81-FcPKdktaq9y7pFMo4uv_FXBUDrQ5x3qJPIaCXUy7mVg-zdzKUnQZs9fuVH6H0ajIr54BwDNrFkX6taqydInb13iDnrUvkfXiosxjoUDV10rSs70ospz6VRD5gLeGB9-Ya0uKVB_8PJuqeUXw

The bag I was going to buy was an old bag that was clear and I checked the date and it said 2012(No month)Then right behind it they had dark bags with a Sep2013 date. I bought the darker bag. The shelf was empty and they only had 2 bags. It was in the small section of the "Hydro" isle that I found by chance. They had General Hydro organic nutes for $35 a bottle!!! At my hydro store they are less than $20 each. They also had a 1 pound bag of chicken manure called "chicky poo poo" for $14..Lol An entire 20-30 pound bag of pure chicken manure at Home Depot is $4

So anyways, these fungi do have an expiration date. So I "inoculated" my Mandarin and Washington Navel, both trees only at 2 years of age as of this year/month. Well see the results compared to the inoculated Improved Myer and 3 Stone fruit. I was thinking to try different things on different trees to see how it goes. As of now Im going to grow a few "Organic" fruit trees and some with "synthetics/salts" and some with a mixture of both to see results.

Also at OSH I found almost all of the individual ingredients to make gritty mix. All of them LARGE QUANTITY. Including small pine chips(non composted). The only thing missing was the crushed granite. But they had organic vermiculite but I dont know if that would work or not.

OSH also had 30 earthworms for $13...Lol no thank you. I looked inside the cup and one was dead and the cup was missing almost every worm. I think I counted 5 earth worms. I said they should poke some holes on the top for a tiny bit of airflow.


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RE: Fungus

Oh I meant UN-inoculated Improved Myer and stone fruit. Sorry


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Does Osh have turface? If they do I will make a note of that, for future reference.


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Nope no Turface:-( But I have been reading that people are using "oil spill cleanup" type media from Auto Zone and Pep Boys with good results. I cant remember the name but it looks like cat litter and is made of almost the same stuff as Turface MVP


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in understanding all the life forms in healthy soil, explained in layperson's terms:

+Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (Revised Edition)+ by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis

Here is a link that might be useful: Publisher's Link


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Thanks Karchita. Im starting to feel like all this "organic" gardening isnt anything new. Its just that we as a society (including big business) have come so far from our connection to the earth and have been manipulated into using "synthetics" or "chemicals". Now Im not knocking certain fertilizers but it seems that, as a backyard grower, "organic" soil suits me better. Not only that but it also contributes to very healthy soil. Growing in pots is another story but for in ground growing I think Ill stick to "organic"

Anyways, does anyone know, or find the answer, to how often we should "inoculate" the soil with mychorrizae? Once a year? Or does it grow itself after a good inoculation while maintaining healthy soil?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I would assume it should last forever, but how can you tell if it's working or not?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.USA (My Page) on
    Mon, May 28, 12 at 20:27

Forever seems right, if the soil stays healthy.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

One day Im going to dig down and see whats going on in the roots, Ill try not to disturb anything(Ill use my air compressor on low). Also, during the next year of growth, Im going to compare my inoculated trees to my non inoculated trees for a difference. Im hoping to get some cool mushrooms as a bi-product as well. I know I probably wont but I dont mind.


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Once the fungus is on the roots it should last as long as the plant does provide nothing goes wrong, like you forget to water or maybe some fungicides, but still you can I think spray the top parts with fungicide and it won't affect what is on the roots. Not that you wanted to do that, but just if the plant was dying of something like powdery mildew. But, I don't think there is anyway to tell if the indoctrination worked or not. I don't think the fungus that live on roots make mushrooms? I think they are a different type of fungus that make mushrooms. If you use a lot of woody mulch or you have a stump of something you cut down you can get mushrooms.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

If you continually provide, in your soil, the conditions that fungi like and need to live in, adequate levels of organic matter, enough but not too much soil moisture, they will be there. There is no need to innoculate, reinnoculate, or add any purchased spores, no matter what the snake oil salesmen tell you.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

The type of fungus that forms a symbiotic relationship with the plant grows within the plant cells. Unless you have a microscope you will not see them. They are called endomychorrhizal. If you see a fungus on the roots they are called ectomycorrhizal.
If you buy an inoculate you should make sure it contains several varities of glomus as well as some of the ecto varities which are more associated with trees and shrubs.
It is best to inoculate making contact directly on the roots.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yeah but if you want to speed things along and have a healthy supply of spores laying around there is nothing wrong with that. I dont consider it anylike a "snake oil". It could take a year or more to get the spores and fungus thriving again with just matural mulching practies. But now that I have a good fresh source of spores it will help it that much quicker. I dont know why you consider Fungus spores "snake oil". There is nothing snake oil about it kimmsr. It is what it is. Of course we will have them in our healthy soil, but how many and how long will that take? There are many different varieties.

So dont knock the fungus and if someone wants to use them in there many different varieties to insure a healthy population I dont see anything wrong with buying them from xtreme gardening.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

That message was for kimmsr

novascapes. I agree. This bag I bought has many ecto and endo. I also read which tree prefer what. The majority of trees shrubs prefer endo, I think over %90, including citrus. xtreme gardening has ALOT of both in that bag. Yes I know that healthy soil supports the fungus but nothing wrong with helping it a bit and making it part of a yearly watering schedule. There is a recipe for fungi tea on the bag:-)


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Here is a list of varieties compatible( scroll down on page)

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/mycocyclopedia/

Here is a link that might be useful: Varieties of Mychorriza


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RE: Mycorrhiza

The history of mycorrhizal fungi becoming commercially available is that the benefits were first discovered by scientists. It then became commercially available because there are people that found they could capitalize on that knowledge. It was not the other way around having the snake oil people paying universities to come to these conclusions.And no doubt there are people exaggerating the benefits.
I personally am not so much concerned as to how much it benefits the plant directly in a home garden but as to how it can save me hundreds of dollars, if not thousands, because it can pull up phosphorous from soil where the phosphorous is locked up in my calcareous clay pastures. Secondly it helps build the soil structure by leaving a by product called gomulin, which binds the soil to form aggregates.
Third it aids in building humus.
The other thing I would like to point out is that the spores are relatively short lived. If live roots are not available they will die in short order. The only way they can move through the soil is basically from root to root contact. Maybe the occasional earthworm will pick up some spores and move them a short distance. A mole would move them a lot further. Anyway they just don't jump into plowed up ground very fast. I have read they move at about 3 feet per year.
One other thing I want to point out. I do not use all these fancy words to show off. I use them so anyone intrested can google them up and do their own research thus coming up with there own conclusions. I have read literally thousands of papers on the subject and am totally convinced of benefits.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

The question is not that they work, but can they be shipped alive and then colonized? If someone is selling you the correct one or the wrong you, you can not tell. If they are selling you the right one and it does work, you can't tell if it is working or if the right thing just came to your plant by random chance. Therefore, it could be "snake oil" only because they is no way verified it is real, and that it is working. The best way would be to find a plant that was like yours which had it, and try to move it over to your plant. I am sure shipping would be harmful or even fatal.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Or we can verify a company by the thousands of people who purchased the product and have had great results..

This has been around for a long time. "Over the counter" mychorriza is nothing new, thats why they have expiration dates on them. Either way, the soil in my backyard had been BAKING and BARE for the last seven years.
OldOldBackyard

I just planted grass last year and began to plant trees and such. So how long would it take to get a good fungus colony going? YEARS... No snake oil involved in helping your soil become healthy with MANY DIFFERENT types of fungi. At this point mychorriza is a part of my "healthy soil regime". When its established maybe I wont worry as much.

circa Jan2011

OldGrass4

2 months ago

BackYard


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RE: Mycorrhiza

What I have done is a little off the wall but I think it will work.
I found a ranch in the area that has nothing but native grasses and trees.(This land has never had any tillage since the pioneers settlend it) I got permission to dig up some of the grass. (Little bluestem and Eastern gamma, which both survived our Texas drought very well)) Some of this I planted in my garden and some I removed the roots and sent to a microbiologist at a major university. The mycos were identified and a report was sent back to me. It really surprised me as to how many different fungi were found. They did include the glomus varieties. I am now in the process of growing my own as the method is shown yoUTube. The microbiologist agreed it would work. After enough is grown I will mix with ryegrass seed and plant this coming fall and hope to spread it through out my pastures, yard, flowerbeds and garden.
If I were to purchase a commercial product I would only go with one of the major companies that have been in business for a long time. Make sure they have a high count on the propagules or spores and have several varities included.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Interesting...


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Ive been reading. Do you think Streptomyces lydicus will destroy beneficial fungus as well? Will it harm other bacteria in the soil? The website says it kills and prevents Pythium, Phytophthora, Fusarium, Rhizoctonia, Verticillium, Phymatotrichum omnivorum (cotton root rot) and other root decay fungi. It is also know as Actinovate. Has anyone ever heard of this stuff? Alot of commercial growers use it with success but I was wondering if it will kill beneficial fungus as well? I dont think it will because it seems like it is in the same family. I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of this of had experience with it?

I am always looking for products that fight the hard to kill root diseases/fungus. And this one is organic and beneficial to boot! Or so it seems.

http://naturalindustries.com/commercial/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=3

Here is a link that might be useful: Actinovate


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RE: Mycorrhiza

It seems like they would have an underground war but doing a quick search there are several products that contain both, Myco Grow being one of them.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Maybe theyre old school friends from waaaay back?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I would have to say, no you can't verify it's working if you get good garden results, since it may not work, but you still have results due to correct horticultural practices.

You can take two women one used product x anti age cream, one does not. Woman who used x looks younger because she avoids sun, eats healthy, works out, gets 8 hours sleep and has low stress. Woman 2 may use a tanning bed and smoke. Unless you can control for the same conditions in each case, you can't do a scientific study.

But, this is not to say I don't think it is working. It may be working very well, it is just not possible to prove it.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Well if all other factors were equal except for Mychorriza on one root and not on the other, we can say that it is working.

If both woman did everything equal in their lifes except one used anti wrinkle cream and the other didnt, we can say the cream is working.

Either way its not a question of if it works or not, we already know it works. I just want to see how WELL(I wish I could italicize this word hehe) it works and if there is a notable difference. I think the real benefit will come from the fungus' ability to pull more nutrients from the soil and repel the attacks of harmful fungus/bacteria.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

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RE: Mycorrhiza

That is interesting. We will see because I inoculated a tree that I just planted in seriously nutrient depleted soil and also happens to be suffering from a couple of micro deficiencies.

It seems that book is saying that the fungus is only really needed on plants/trees growing in soils lacking in nutrients and that if a plant receives enough nutrients the fungus is basically useless. Well I say every little bit helps.

I think I read somewhere that Mychorriza spoon feeds your roots...hehehe


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RE: Mycorrhiza

You would have to divide an area in half plant two trees of the same type give both the same treatment to run a test. Even that may not prove anything one tree could be stronger then other, but it would be closer. A real study would have to sample 100 trees 50 with and 50 without or something like that. Did have a class in statistics? That is what marketing companies use to try and prove stuff that is difficult to verify. May I ask how much you paid for the stuff and how long before noticed a benefit?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Yes I did plant two trees right next to each other. And guess what, this is not a REAL TEST...lol

Im a backyard grower. Im pretty sure if you take two EXACT TREES and inoculate one and not the other, you can gauge results no matter how minor or insignificant. This is not some kind of government funded study or corporate experiment. Im not trying to prove anything. Im doing what makes me feel good and If I happen to see some NOTICEABLE results Ill attribute it to the fungus. Plain and simple mychorriza cant do any harm right? And yes I have taken many classes in statistics for business/economics, not that I paid any attention. I have also worked for Americas once largest sub prime mortgage company as a sales executive and for a while in the marketing department, not that it matters, because Im not trying to prove anything. Im doing simple observations for personal comfort.

I have VERY UNHEALTHY soil with NO living ANYTHING in it.
I have ZERO earthworms ZERO organic matter ZERO ANYTHING
I bought a product to help my soil become healthy
I paid $14 for 2.2 pounds of xtreme gardening (Check prices online and see how much you will spend)
Since then I have found better mychorriza with more bacteria and species but Im OK with the xtreme gardening. I think mycoapply soluble maxx would be the best bet maybe.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Well that is good then, you got a great deal for a small amount of money. I was shopping for sulfur the prices were much more like 25 dollars because of the shipping being so expensive.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

blazeaglory, It sounds as though we both have the same soil as far as worthless goes. I have 3 acres of yard and approx. 10,000 sq. ft. of flower beds plus a vegetable garden. Although I have the availability to get plenty of organic material to do the beds and garden, I still have the yard and trees to contend with. Not only do the yard and trees need the nutrients but they also need water.
There are many natural areas around me that seem to do quite well on their own. Most even made it through our severe Texas drought. Maybe the reason is the presents of the fungi needed. If I can mimic mother nature then I could save a lot not only fertilizer but cut down the summer water bill as well. Applying this to the farm grass pastures as well would equate to a lot of savings even at a 10% increase in growth. Making pasture grasses more drought hardy may mean I would not have to replant.
Something that has not been brought up is the potential for soil improvement. Carbon storage, Soil structure improvement through aggregation and production of humus. I think we call it top soil.
My understanding is that if there is plenty of available phosphorous the myco would not do much good and may not even be able to survive. This would also cut the need for the for additional P to be added to the soil either organic or commercial. High N applications have also been shown to kill the fungus. It sounds contradictory but soils with high organics low in N and P the myco does even better. Unlike other microbes that convert the organic matter for the plant the fungus can extract the nutrients and feed the plant directly. (This is only my understanding)
I did a little research on Phosphorous fertilizer. Why we need to continually add P to the soil. Where does it go if not being used by the plant or eroded away? It becomes locked up in some soils where it cannot be used by the plant. The mycorrhizal fungi can and does extract that phosphorous from the soil and directly feeds it to the plant as well as other micronutrients and moisture.


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read this!

I just got into making compost tea again and I have read and watched many a youtube video thus far about preparation of the tea. There are 2 things that manifest the organic properties of compost tea, bacteria, and fungus. There are many different recipes which begin by establishing the nutrient content, N, P, and K and of course you may add other vitamins and minerals to the mixture. Next you focus on the feeding process. An airstone is added to a compost tea setup to create an aerobic environment, organisms that breathe oxygen. If you add molasses or another type of sugar you are going to have a bacteria rich environment. Bacteria in the soil eat other pathogens and promote a stronger immune system in the plant. Adding wood or sawdust to compost tea creates a fungus rich tea, AKA mycorrhizae, which establish a symbiotic relationship with various plant root systems which enables a larger vascular structure within plant roots thus increasing nutrient uptake and water retention. Think of mycorrhizae as a living spiderweb or mesh that grows within a plants root structure which acts as a sponge that absorbs water captures nutrients, and devours anaerobic organisms, organisms that dont need oxygen. Anaerobic metabolism is the breakdown of cellular structures due to a lack of an oxygen environment. It is the reason that soggy plants get root rot and it consists of bad bacteria and fungus. The point of growing organic is to not only keep the food clean and healthy but to also establish an environment that is hostile to anaerobic conditions thus creating a thriving prolific garden. Mycorrhizae is a good anaerobic fungus found in the roots, remember you need good bacteria too. Hope this helps.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

calypsobloomer, You may have fungus but not arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. This fungi lives on the sugsrs produced by the plant not organic matter being decomposed. It is the fungi which only lives in live root cells. This is an endomycrobial fungi. The fungi from compost woud be ecto which could also set up a relationship. I cannot comment on the specific type you would have growing in compost.


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Is anyone still gardening with Mycorrhizae? How is it going? Do you have a brand you would recommend?


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RE: Mycorrhiza

Mycorhiza is the relationship, mutually beneficial or symbiotic, that some fungi form with some plants. It is not a species of fungi as some snake oil salespeop-le appear to want yuou to think so you spend your money on products thyey sell that you probably do not need.
"my·cor·rhi·za [mahy-kuh-rahy-zuh] Show IPA
noun, plural my·cor·rhi·zae [mahy-kuh-rahy-zee] Show IPA , my·cor·rhi·zas. Plant Pathology .
a symbiotic association of the mycelium of a fungus, especially a basidiomycete, with the roots of certain plants, in which the hyphae form a closely woven mass around the rootlets or penetrate the cells of the root."


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RE: Mycorrhiza

I tried myko on my lettuce sprouts this year and when I went to thin them out I noticed the little roots where up to 3 " long! This has made a dramatic difference in early root development.


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