Persistent herbicides used on hay (clorpyralid for example)

Manure with too much sawdust or wood chips leading to nitrogen deficiency.

Manure that was too fresh.

High pH from lime used on the manure, in barns etc. for odor control.

I'd suggest an immediate call to wherever the soil came from.

I'm still in favor of asking the seller before spending money on tests, it's their responsibility. But for discussion purposes I'm still curious.

Lloyd

I would test for whatever is in the soil. Who the hell knows what Im getting. I want to know what or what is not in the soil before I buy it. People will lie to you and rip you off. Who knows maybe they got that soil from Chernobyl or some nuclear wasteland somewhere? The question isnt why would I test BUT why WOULDNT I test. Hey my soil is full of V. wilt spores and other fungal diseases and high in salts and chlorine but you dont know that and I wont tell you, want to buy it cheap? Its primo soil man...

I cannot believe in this day and age that you would actually believe someone (whom isnt close to you) when they tell you what is in the soil they want to sell you.

Is a soil test so unheard of?? Lol Im more shocked that you actually asked why I would want a test. Im not talking about an NPK test I mean I want to know EXACTLY what is in the soil so I know Im getting untainted product for my money.

One suggestion that was made is possible contaminated organic matter. Read this info, then do the bio-assay to determine if that's the problem.
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/clopyralid.htm

When I was in grad school working at the Env. Trace Substances Research Center at U of MO, the U. Hospital sent over a donut once and asked 'what's in it?' Imagine the complexity of proteins, carbohydrates, salts, metals, trace herbicides from the grain, pesticides and antibiotics from the eggs, and on and on. An impossible task. I still chuckle over that one.

Now, as to whether to 'believe anyone in this day and age', yeah, I do. I basically trust people until I have a good reason not to. In any case, going to the source will be a piece of the puzzle that should not be neglected. They may already know they have a problem.

And if it's something as simple as a high pH due to limed manure, massive lab analysis to look for everything under the sun would be a giant waste of time and money. Might as well haul the stuff off and buy new, it would be cheaper.

N, P, K, organic matter content, C:N ratio, pH are the ones to start with if the seller has no ideas. In other words a standard soil test.

I wonder if running a germination/growth test using wheat would work for testing for clopyralid? Wheat is not affected by that herbicide so if it grows, and other plants do not, it might be a clue. This would be an extremely cheap/easy test.

Lloyd

Its not that hard to find out whats in a doughnut. Just dont make it hard. And if you had the money you would do it. A few hundred bucks is worth peace of mind. But that wasnt the question and I dont want to go of onto a side argument of the pros/cons of soil tests.

If you can do home remedies to check for different problems with your soil, go for it. I know I would. But if I had the money and I really wanted to know what was in my soil, I would send it in for lab work, regardless if other people think it is too pricey or a waste of time.

We have a trusted landscaper that does some of our bigger projects around our house. We've used him about 5 times now in 2 different homes. I'm only saying this so that you know why we trust him.

Anyway, he just recently finished a large (for us) retaining wall project and had to bring in a lot of new top soil. He buys his topsoil from a trusted (to him) supplier and then he mixes it with his own compost.

When we talked about what I was going to plant in it, he said that whatever I plant I should add fertilizer because the compost has a tendency to tie up the nitrogen.

So what you said in your first post about the plants looked like they had nitrogen deficiency struck a chord with me. Plants will die from nitrogen deficiency. And I have not seen any "creatures" in our soil yet either. I believe it takes time for them to get there :-)

Can your friend buy something simple to plant (with added fertilizer) and see how it does?

Val

I know toxic has vast knowledge in regards to soil and compost, I never challenged that, but he and no one else can tell me what is in my soil by just going through the usual methods. Im sure you can gauge quite a bit but, for a sure thing, get a soil test. I respect toxic to the 10th degree and am not trying to teach him anything. Im only giving my reasons why I would want the soil tested.

If all else fails wouldnt you want to know whats in your soil? I want to know whats in my soil and my soil is pretty darn good, its a matter of curiosity. Forget about cost involved, if money wasnt an issue I can tell you %99 of people on this site would get their soil tested by a lab. Plain and simple.

My experience, the one time I built a raised bed and bought "top soil" and planted, was that nothing would grow.

The woman I bought it from said the "top soil" was made mostly from forest products. And I don't think anyone is scraping off the earth's surface and bagging it and selling it, so this "top soil" is not the same as the "top soil" that covers the earth. Would it follow that there may well be no life in the soil because, well, it's not actually soil? Because the soil food web isn't in there? And if people don't mix it with the native soil, then there isn't a chance for the SFW to set up shop?

Actual topsoil (that which covers the earth) is such a complex, living thing. Can they really take some composted leaves and peat and pine needles and add some granite and manure and turn out something that should be allowed to be called topsoil? I've been wondering about this for a while, and would love to hear from some of the soil experts on here about it.

Such a shame that new gardeners are buying what they think is great stuff (and expensive!) when they may well have done better just digging up the lawn and planting.

If twenty four hours later there is some sort of skim on the surface, that means there is something in that dirt that should not be there.

A big yes to eliza Z5 and jolj.

Here is a very simple test. Mix a cubic foot of the new soil with a cubic foot of your own old garden soil in your wheelbarrow or a trash can, etc. Mix very well. Dig out a small test circle where you can place the dirt. Make sure that dirt is at least ten inches deep. Transplant two different varieties of very small plants in the soil. Give the transplants about week to get past the shock of being transplanted. Drench the soil with one gallon of water soluble fertilizer per 2 sq ft every ten days for 30 days. See what happens.

PS. When I buy dirt I assume that it does not have enough nutrients to support life and that all micro-organisms in the soil are dead.

That is why in this test you add your own gardensoil for the micro-organisms and the water soluble fertilizer for nutrients.

Note: If the plants die in the week after transplanting you have a serious problem. You should move on to other tests.

I am assuming you will not kill these two plants from transplant shock or hot sun or over or under watering.

Good Luck

I would still look into the basics first - pH, nitrogen availability, etc. before shelling out for those tests. Occam's Razor.

As far as asking the provider, it's worth trying. The seller may have learned of a problem since selling that batch and tell you what it is. Or not. No harm asking.

Elisa, yes people do scrape off the surface of the Earth and sell it as topsoil. They're called building contractors. When a new piece of land is developed ie built on, the topsoil is all scraped off first and sold. Topsoil is great for growing things but not for building on, builders want subsoil for their foundation, and they want the extra money from selling the topsoil. It's up to the buyer to replace the topsoil. But after all that scraping and piling and transporting and dumping here and there, the topsoil loses a lot of its 'topsoil' qualities - structure, microbes etc. And it's often diluted with whatever other stuff the contractor or landscape supplier needs to get rid of. It's a scam as far as I'm concerned. If I ever build on raw land I would insist that the contractor retain all the native topsoil and re-spread it once construction is done. It'll cost more, but better than having to pay to replace what was there before with an unknown material.

We really need pix of what happened to the plants that were planted in this soil. We're all just throwing darts otherwise. You can test for clopyralid contamination by planting grass seed and peas or beans. The grass seed should come up but not the peas or beans if it's clopyralid. If it's just too-fresh manure, then time and rain will alleviate that problem. You should be able to smell the manure if it's too fresh. Time will eventually alleviate the clopyralid too but it'll take years, the stuff is extremely persistent and it doesn't leach out with rain.

It all makes sense now!

And I thank my lucky stars that I've got good mountain soil to grow in.

Now up here topsoil can be, or was, a foot deep or many feet deep. I can go to my one garden dig down sixteen inches, level that area off, plant and plants will grow even in areas where- I - do not make sure my subsoil is rich.

When I landscaped, even up farther north, we would have to take the soil down a minimum of twelve inches just to get below the "black dirt" but in several areas we went down 24 inches and gave up as we were not being paid enough to keep digging to see just how far down it went and it was only for paving stone patios and such, so no heavy traffic.

Which is to say, it is not that easy to pin down a definition of topsoil that specifies thickness, texture or organic content. Which is why my American Heritage defines topsoil as 'the upper portion of soil.'

But there are accepted meanings. When gardeners talk about buying topsoil, in my mind they are referring to soil that is better than whatever subsoil (or maybe even topsoil) they have, in terms of texture, tilth, organic content and fertility.

I am not sure more of a definition than that is necessary.

I believe this is right on the money. Sometimes it's just easier and more time conservative to buy topsoil than to try and amend what you already have...even though you sometimes have to amend what you buy :-)

Val

PS - Also, when making raised beds, unless you're prepared to dig up your yard, you're probably going to have to buy soil. Or in my case with the retaining wall. The soil has to come from somewhere.