Having worms usually means that your soil is favorable for worms and that generally denotes decent soil.

The absence of worms just means that there are no worms, it does not necessarily mean your soil is bad.

It has been pointed out to a certain poster that his diatribe about the worms is incorrect but he doesn't seem to want to adjust his thinking. It has also been pointed out to that poster that his continuely posting the incorrect information can cause some people angst but he doesn't seem to want to adjust his thinking.

Don't panic over havng no worms yet.

Lloyd

g'day jim,

just start adding organic material and moisture the worms will come, better if you mulch as well. we put all our kitchen scraps in our gardens the worms love that action. if you adopt same method you could then buy some composting worms and put them in the garden, let all your vermicomposting happen right where it will do the most good, in the garden.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

I know the feeling! I've turned over tons of rocks when making my new garden and not found a single earthworm. Will have to introduce them I guess.

It took me a while to get worms in my garden here in SW Florida. When I tilled the first time starting this garden I needed sunglasses to protect me from the glare off the bright white sugar sand!

Since that time I have saved all my grass clippings and leaves to compost and things have changed remarkably for the better. I mulch heavy and replace it often. Now I usually see a worm or two each time I dig to set in a plant.

I guess I take it to something of an extreme but every weed I pull, every branch I trim, any organic wastes at all get set aside to be run through the Super Tomahawk shredder and then added to the compost piles. Feed the soil and the worms will come and the veggies will grow!

I'm thinking of buying some worms for my garden.

I've got a carefully hoarded pile of last year's leaves in the shade in the backyard that I water regularly for the specific purpose of attracting what worms there might be so that I can move them to the garden.

I bet if you just start mulching good the worms will show up on their own. I never had tons of worms either until I did a sheet compost bed over the winter using a bunch of spoiled straw and coffee grounds. They love those coffee grounds.

Earthworms diet is organic matter, so if your soil has adequate quantites of organic matter there should be earthworms present unless some other reason exists to keep them out. The Natural Resources Conservation Service says you need a minimum of 5 earthworms per shovel full of soil for a good, healthy soil, 10 would be better.
So what is the level of organic matter in your soil now?

My soil has almost no organic material. .2%

And I'm not finding worms in the raised beds that have much higher quantities of organic material or in the mulched areas either.

There is a very small population in the back yard where there are deciduous trees, shade, and the debris from many years of fallen leaves. But there is nowhere that I can dig up a few shovelfuls of dirt and count on finding even one worm.

I suspect that the natural populations in the impoverished soil are so low that they aren't able to breed up to noticeable levels in a reasonable amount of time even when given improved conditions.

kimmsr The organic matter was 4.6% in both samples I've had done. The texture clayey and drainage fair. And the NO3-N level low in the first sample, 18#/A and much higher in the second, 133#/A. The second sample was from my rose bed the other from the vegetable garden.

I'm wondering if the heavy rain has impacted not only the worm population but the vigor of veggies in the clay soil by affecting the aeration.

USDA NRCS

"They are not essential to all healthy soil systems, but their presence is usually an indicator of a healthy system."

USDA NRCS

"Not all healthy soils will have earthworms."

Links to quotes located in this thread.

Lloyd

P.S. Still have not seen a posted link to the other claim.

Maybe because of the soil type around you, the worms cant find a way to your garden. You may have to bring them in.

@Iam3killerbs-- I put in a link to a nice article on earthworms. :) It points out that adult worms may die if moved to a strange new soil, even if it's good soil, because they are so sensitive--kinda like aquarium fish I guess. Lots of places sell the cocoons, though, and when the babies hatch they are much more adaptable.
I know Gardener Supply sold them at one time. A lot of time, if you just buy castings there will be lots of cocoons in there, too.

Okay, well, I meant to put in the link but I forgot. Here it is.

Here is a link that might be useful: nice earthworm praise page

Is this a new garden, are you experiencing a heat wave, and is the soil dry?

Here's a quote w/some info re: earthworm's preferences - source link below:
"The conditions that are conducive to earthworms are also ideal for plants. Both plants and worms need temperatures between 60 and 100 degrees F for good growth; both need water, but not too much or little; they both require oxygen for respiration; and they do not like soils that are too acid or basic or too salty. By correcting soil conditions that are unfavorable for one will also improve the outlook for the other. The earthworm is a natural component of the soil population. If the soil is properly managed this natural population will thrive. In this sense, the presence or absence or earthworms can be an indicator of the "fertility" of one's soil."

What is not clearly stated in that quote is that overuse of synthetic fertilizers do not provide a healthy environment for earthworms. Also herbicides and insecticides are toxic to them.

When I first began gardening in this coniferous forest it took a few years before there were any earthworms apparent. DH would bury his leftover fishing worms in the garden and often plants from friends would have some earthworms. As we constantly amended the soil the worms multiplied and I now have lots of worms in the perennial beds which are watered, in fact so many that I don't like to dig unless I need to transplant. There are no worms visible in the dry beds altho as I plant there, amend the soil, and water I believe they will move in.

You might try burying some vegetable trimmings and UCG between the plants and see if that attracts the worms.

Here is a link that might be useful: earthworms and soil productivity

jim_w_ny, 4.6 percent organic matter in any soil is not a good level. Cornell will tell you that 5 percent is good but that is the bare minimum for a good healthy soil and upwards toward 10 percent would be better.

Not having any worms in the soil primarily comes from two causes: 1. the soil is too wet/dry. If you have either condition the worms cant live. They either die from drowning or dehydration. 2. There is not enough microbial life in the soil. Worms do not eat wood chips, leaves, grass clippings, apples, lettuce, bread, paches, or any other kind of material that finds its way into the soil. Wroms do not have teeth. They eat the microial matter (bacteria and fungi) that are compolsting the organic stuff we put into the soil. If you want worms to come into your garden then you have to have moist soil that has lots of microbial life.

First start with getting lots of already composted material into the soil, not uncomposted material. Then add a good amount of organic fertilizer. Organic fertilizer is important because (unlike chemical fertilizers) they acutally provide energy to for the microbes so they can do their job. This is why you never put raw uncomposted material into the garden. The microbes have to eat in order to do their work and if you don't provide an energy source for the microbes they will take the food you intend for the plants for their own use. Chemical fertilizers like Miracle Grow provide absolutely nothing for the soil and the microbial live.

I want to smiply distinguish here that putting a layer of mulch (grass clippings, pine bark, straw, etc.) on top of the soil is not the same thing as putting raw material into the soil. Mulches decomplse slowly, over time, in a static form of decompostion. Putting lots of raw organic material directly into the soil is a different matter. Simply stated, mulching is not composting. You can split hairs at this time and say that composting is a form of decomposition, but the hot composting we do in our bins is a far different process that the slow process of static decompostion.

Start by putting the horse before the cart and think what the soil needs. If you have no worms and your soil is not overly soggy or dry then you are not feeding the soil. If you feed the soil you will be feeding your plants. But if you only feed the plants some fertilizer you are not feeding the soil. I am not trying to hijack this thread and turn it into an organic vs chemical fertilizer discussion. I only want to point out that worms eat bacteria and fungi and if you are not providing energy to the microbes then either the plants will suffer because the microbes wlll take the energy from what we want to give the plnats or the microbial life will simply go away (die) until conditions are favorable for them to exist.

One other misconseption: Plnat do not break break up hard soil or make it loamy, or fertile: bacteria ande fungi do. Worms tunneling around eating the bacteria and fungi helps to aerate the soil, not to mentinon their castings are one of the best fertility materails anywhere. In reality (except for legumes) plants are consumers, they don't add to the soil, except for when they drop their leaves or die and add themselves to the recycling process. We are the ones who primarily benefit from the plants either for their beauty or the things we need to survive.

If you do what supports the microbes you will do what is necessary to get plenty of worms. Understanding the relationship between microbes and plants is the key to having life-giving soil. Giving life to the soil does not come from fertilzer (organic or chemical), it comes from goodly amount of microbes that live in the soil.

Life-giving soil is the result of lots of microbial matter. And having lots of worms is also a result of lots of microbial life in the soil. You gotta stop thinking plants and start thinkng microbes. This is the key to getting worms into the garden. Because even if I came to your house tomorrow with a thousand worms, if your soil is not able to support microbial life how can you expect the worms to begin to survive. They well either die or move away.
Tom

I worked in the chemical industry all my life. My last job was with an oil company with a chemical division that made nitrogen fertilizers such as urea and ammonium nitrate. Now I'm troubled by the terms organic vs chemical. The main plant nutrients such as NPK are inorganic. Give me an example of say an organic source of Potash! I can't think of one or for that matter any of the other nutrients used by plants. They are all inorganic.

The current fetish for ORGANIC FOODS drives me wild.

Now I'm all for stuff that bridges the gap between the inorganic world of basic fertillizers and the organic world of plants. Your post was very interesting but tell us more about this subject.

Oh yes soil moisture. Really important. Soil texture is basic stuff that is quite impossible to fix if you happen to have the wrong sort for your climate. Like now with our inusual amount of rain. Mine is clayey. Wrong for all that rain.

I just dug some potatoes. The soil in the bed was excellent with plenty of evidence of OM and the potatoes were big and beautiful. I could see evidence of worms, but I didn't see a single worm. The bed was bare soil.

petalpatsy is right. You'll need mulch on the soil to keep it cool enough and moist enough to allow worms to stay around. Temperatures in Idaho have been in the 90's and that's what's keeping the worms below ground until the wee hours when it cools off to 65 or so.

I'll be dumping compost and mulch on the newly dug bed, even though it's scheduled to be a corn patch next year. Gotta keep the soil protected.

Avid Hiker, that's a good explanation.

Jim w ny, if you use the chemist's definition of "carbon bearing", "organic" as used here WILL drive you nuts.

OP, I had years of bountiful veggie production before any worms showed up. Maybe they have poor communication or more likely lots of rocks to travel through.

"If you want worms to come into your garden then you have to have moist soil that has lots of microbial life."

The exact antithesis of this region's native soil. Especially since the deep, southeastern drought of the past several years only receded this past winter. :-D

@petalpatsy,
Thank's for the link. I'll take a look at it.

I have a lot of worms in my compost. However, the soil in my vegetable garden is native that is rather poor and has been cultivated for lots of decades probably without much fertilizer. In the early years no doubt cow manure.

Now as to organic vs inorganic reading in my old organic chemistry book its' more than just carbon bearing as carbonates for one thing have carbon but are inorganic. It is a fuzzy definition but most accurate would be ionic vs covalent in structure.

Now synthetic seems to be a negative term. Yet about 1/3 of the people on the globe would starve without synthetic fertilizers. Nitrogen that is freely in the air can only be had via synthetic methods other than what nature does with cholorophyll in plants. Not enough at least with the population we have.

So lets' emulate nature as much as possible as that seems the best way to go but when push comes to shove use manufactured stuff to make up the difference. Well at least don't get fanatic about it!

@jim,

That's pretty much my philosophy.

I garden "as organic as is reasonable". I prefer to use compost and, when its not offensive to the neighbors because of small lot sizes, manure.

But the soil in my new home is SEVERELY deficient in potassium. Far beyond what wood ashes can provide for. The bag of 5-5-15 has made a world of difference. Its the difference between my garden failing completely and producing.

I hope that, using organic-type processes to improve the soil over time, I'll be able to build up the general fertility, but I'll probably never be able to garden on this ground without a bag of Muriate of Potash in the shed.

I think focusing the discussion on organic vs chemical is an imporper one. Both a carrot and arsenic are organic materials that are totally natural. But I would never eat arsenic. Just because something is organic does not make it good for you. My comments werer focused on what is best for microbial life in the soil to support worms. I was taking a much broader approach to gardening. I know plenty of people who have wonderful veggie gardens using Miracl Grow. But I also have a neighbor who waters his garden using an overhead sprinkler system while not mulching. I ground water my plants and I mulch the soil with a two inch layer of grass clippings. I try to be as organic as possible; but I am not a commercial farmer who has a thousand acres of green beans. There is simply no way for a person who farms on a large scale to go out into their field and physically place compost around the plants. Reality has to be looked at, and people have to be reasonable in their approach. Chemical fertilizers have their place. Yes petroleum is an organic compound, however, nature does not refine petroleum into NPK - never has and never will. This discussion was about how to get worms into the soil - not an argument for or against organic vs chemical fertilizers.

iam3killerbs wrote, "The exact antithesis of this region's native soil. Especially since the deep, southeastern drought of the past several years only receded this past winter. :-D". But therein lies the beauty of the home garden. Because the home gardener typically operates on a small scale we can transform our native soil into whatever we want it to be - regardless of what the native soil consists of. That does not mean however, that a person who lives in zone 3 will have much luck growing veggies that require lots of heat and a long growing season or flowers that do not tolerate cool nights. One still has to match what they grow to their local. But,unlike the large commercial farmer, the home gardener can totally transform their soil into something the commercial farmer could only dream of.

I can understand how some people might not be able to, or have the time, to set up a compost bin or work compost into thier garden bed. If all they want to do is to water their garden with MG that is fine. I use organic fertilizers (fertilizers made from manures, bone/blood meal, vermicastings, poultry waste, bat guano, etc) because I get more than just the NPK one gets from chemical fertilizers. I get a host of bacteria, humic acid, minerals, etc. Chemical fertilizers only provide NPK. They provide little for the microbes in the soil. I don't use organic because I feel chemical fertizizers are "bad" but because I feel the organic fertrilizers are far superior. And with oil prices going up so high the cost of chemical fertilzers is now the same, or exceeds, the organic ones. So I can use chemical fertilizers and get NPK or I can use organic fertilizers and not only get NPK but a whole lot more. One is not good or bad, one is simply better than the other.

Tom

I was chatting over the ol' garden fence the other day, (well, not really, since I have a deer fence and a big hedge and visual barrier, but the general neighborly discussion did take place) and it turns out that neighbor was, in his youth, a big time fresh-worm-to-fisherman entrepreneur. And I've watched him in action, and can vouch for a remarkable, mama-robin-feeding-lil'-squawking -robinettes-like aptitude for not only spotting a worm head sticking up out of a water soaked lawn, he can grab them too. And so going on the basis of proven physical ability in the worm catching field, I'm extrapolating here that he knows a bit about worm lore, and so pass along what he told me. Over the proverbial garden fence. Actually he was sitting on his 4 wheeler, and I was leaning against the stirrup hoe, in my driveway, and we were eating Kuban Burgundy plums.

He said that the use of chemical fertilizers would drive the worms away. Not permanently, like driving snakes out of Ireland, but they wouldn't like life as much if someone was dumping 15:15:15 on their 'hood and would leave.

I don't know if this is applicable, or not.

I reread my comment and I have to correct myself. Petroleum is NOT an organic compound. It is a chemical compound. If you squeez compost (or any organic material) with enough pressure and heat you will eventually get petroleum. I am sorry for typing so fast that I mistakenly said that petroleum was organic.

Tom

In the chemical sense, rather than the cultural/political sense, petroleum is indeed organic since its a carbon compound. And I have 30lbs of college Organic Chemistry textbooks to back that up. :-)

But its definitely not going to be a good addition to your compost piles.

IMO, moderation is a good thing in this area. Neither "side" has all the truth in gardening.

Strict organic gardening practices have little to offer anyone who has very difficult soil and a need for food this year since they take years, even decades to bring bad soil into productive condition. We've moved an average of once every 3 year -- a not unusual situation for our generation. When you have no reason to expect to be on the same land for the next 10 years there's no point to long-term, ultra-slow release soil amendments that will have little, if any effect in the next year or two.

But chemical-only approaches are equally lacking in that they neglect the long-term health of the land. While there is little reason to make long-term investments that will only pay off for the next owner, there is no sense to running down and devaluing your land by leaving it in worse condition than when you started.

A balanced approach permits you to get a good harvest this year while making long-term improvements as you go.

I have to second iam's comment that petroleum is organic. What could be more organic than it. After all it was formed by the decompostion of plants with pressure and who knows what else. Another point is what could be more insoluble in water than oil. Sort of a trait for inorganics. Solubility that is.

And the rest of his comments as well!

Thanks, Jim. (BTW, I'm female).

I'm happy to report that the several inches of rain we've had this week have brought some actual worms to the surface where I could spot them.

I had two at the bottom of a mini-greenhouse of fall transplants so I put them into the compost-rich hill of my best winter squash.

I have a little pile of fall leaves raked into the middle of my backyard that I turn over in hopes of finding worms and I got a couple more this week. Hope they're happy in their new garden bed home with plenty of grass clipping mulch to munch on.

I still think I might need to buy some though. The amount I've added to the garden doesn't amount to a single worm/10 sq feet and I've yet to turn one up in the actual garden. :-(

iam3killerbs,

When I use the term organic I am using it in refrence to a product that is made from animal or plant materials. Using your definition I guess even rocks would be considered organic since they come from the earth too. But I think it is understood quite well that petrolium is not considered organic when one is coming from the gardening perspective. As far as I know I am, not at present, able to go to the store and buy a pint of organic oil. Gee that sounds stupid. Organic oil??? In these forums the word organic refers to products that come from animals and plants. That is why you will never, NEVER, see the words organic on any package of chemical fertilizers. The term organic is reserved only for those products that come from animals or plants. And I have the USDA and the Organic Foods Production Act (OFPA) as my references.

I use my internal combustion powered car every day, and I love it, but I do not consider the gasoline I put into the tank to be an organic product. Now, if you want to change the nature of the discussion and call all things that come from the earth organic then fine, I guess you can do that. But I don't think too many people here will accept that idea. So lets all be on the same page and use the definition of terms that pretty much most of us have come to agree upon. A man once said, "I prefer clarity over agreement". That man's name is Dennis Prager, a radio talkshow host in Los Angeles. (My research days requires that I cite my sources). The last time I checked gasoline did not come from the south bound end of a north facing cow, sheep, dog, cat, chicken, . . . you get what I mean. I think that most people here would agree that, in the context that we are using the word organic, petrolium would not be found under the organic umbrella.

Tom

I will take the risk of beating the subject of organic to death. It reminds me of my younger daughter who drives me nuts with her concern over organic, veggie food. She can even taste the residue from washing dishes with a good grease dissolving detergent.

Well petroleum. It is a horrific mixture of chemically defined organic substances all the way from gases such as methane to asphalt a super heavy mess of the left overs of the process by which oil is formed. Now you woulldn't eat it as a lover of organic food. Surely that would make you sick. But in defining the world and all its' varied elements and compounds of them it is solidly in the court of organics. Its' only in the very narrow world of the current fetish against everything man made, synthetic, were it is banned from thought. Such thinking leads you up a blind alley where reason is no longer an option.

@Tom,

The thing is, as a matter of politics and culture, gardeners have distorted the word "organic" from its very precise, technical and scientific meaning (see previously mentioned Organic Chemisty texts). So it has been the gardeners, not the chemists, who have sowed confusion where clarity once reigned to the point that greensand, which contains no carbon compounds, is "organic" to a gardener while petroleum, which is almost exclusively carbon compounds, is not.

Then when you add in the convoluted nature of federal regulations about what may or may not be certified organic it gets even murkier.

My philosophy of gardening is "as organic as is reasonable". I prefer to tend to the long-term improvement of my soil by the addition of plenty of compost, manure, and plant materials. But when faced with a need for a given nutrient RIGHT NOW I do not hesitate to open a bag.

The plants can't use the stuff until its been broken down to its component chemicals anyway. Blood meal won't burn your roots and leaves, 33-0-0 chemical nitrogen won't attract stray dogs -- choose which matters more to you. Once the nitrogen is in a form the roots can accept the plants don't know the difference.

If I had unlimited money and knew that there was no chance whatsoever that I would move in the next decade I'd correct the potassium deficiency of this property with greensand so as not to risk burning my plants and so as not to have to keep adding stuff every time I plant. But I don't have unlimited money and I don't have any assurance that I won't move in the next year (our record is 7 years in the same place and our average is every 3 years and October will be our 3rd year), so muriate of potash makes the difference between having a crop and not having a crop.

I hope that tilling in enough compost, manure, lawn clippings, and fall leaves will make it possible for my nearly pure quartz, fossilized beach sand to hold onto some of the potassium so that I won't have to side dress in the middle of the growing season and risk the root burn.

IMO, anyone who is both achieving an acceptable crop yield and not depleting the original soil is doing something right no matter which tools they've used to make that possible. :-)