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Hope for those with Clay soil

Posted by berryman135678 (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 9, 10 at 8:59

I thought with all the talk of Clay soil amungst the Neebies, I would post some hope.
All these were clay soil, but as I add compost the soil becomes not only usable but produces.

Photobucket

hostas, lillies, jack, N Cones

Castor plants

garden


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Thank you for those. We need all the inspiration we can get!


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I don't understand all the angst about clay soil. What did people want for soil? Sand? Silt? Of the three soil types, clay soil is preferable. I've got clay soil with a pH of 7.8 and it's doing fine. I've even got blueberries established. My complaint about clay soil is how readily it consumes organic material, but otherwise, things are growing fine.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Why I don't like clay? Let me count the ways.

I live in uplands with clay, and I envy some of my friends down in the river bottom with silt. It drains better so things don't get waterlogged in the cold wet spring/early summer. We lose plants to that.

You can't dig it when it's wet or it makes clods. So early spring planting of seeds is difficult.

When it dries it's hard as rock. Can't even pull out an onion once it gets hot and dry.

Hard to even grow root crops in it - the carrots, taters and such are stunted and twisted.

It does suck up organic matter so as soon as you stop adding, the texture starts to go back to heavy clay.

Those are the major ones. :-] I'm sure every soil has its pros and cons, but I think I'd be happy with some nice rich black silt.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

@tox, Do you live in the south? I hear that organic matter does not last in southern soils. Northern soils experience a fallow period where the activity of bacteria and fungi slow and stop. The organic matter doesn't get digested as quickly in the north.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Besides the regular organic matter sources, I find that with my clay/loam soil that additions of local spaghnum is very helpful...I also add sand too....love the texture.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

  • Posted by bencjedi 6 - Central Kentucky (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 10, 10 at 0:25

What's worse than clay soil???... having limestone stones in it that cement-in with the clay when it gets really dry and pavement hard (as it had the last 2 weeks in Central Kentucky... fortunately it rained very nicely today though)!

Here's a new garden space my neighbors and I created in an empty lot on our street. There's no top soil here. What you see is pure clay. The lush topsoil that used to exist in this old cattle field had been scooped up and sold by developers years ago when our houses were built. :(

From 070410

It's an injustice to future homeowners when developers do this, but it was explained to me that they are the lowest bidder to clear land and to make any money they take 95% of the top soil and sell it to golf courses. This is why everyone on our street has such a hard time maintaining a green lawn.. as there's less than a centimeter of topsoil underneath the sod that is laid for each lawn and when the grass roots grown into that soil they encounter the clay\limestone and have a difficult time penetrating it and finding nutrients.

I have had to haul in probably 10 cubic feet of compost and mulches over the years that I buy in bulk to add to my tiny yard to have the best success growing a vegetable garden. I bought a tiller this spring and it has really helped integrate the clay with this great compost, so the silty soil I desire is taking shape in the oldest areas of the garden. Plants definitely appreciate the effort.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

There is nothing inherently wrong with clay soils that adding lots of organic matter will not fix. Clay soils retain large amounts of nutrients and moisture, but they do not easily give them up to anything growing in that clay, but adding organic matter changes things and relases those bound nutrients and moisture so they are more readily available to plants.
The fix is simple, add organic matter as berryman urged.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I live in the south and have mostly red clay soil. I have been adding organic matter to the beds, but for the most part they are still mostly clay. I have over 100 rose bushes and they do quite well in the clay. You do have to keep it mulched or it will dry out and become too hard to work with if it doesn't rain for a few days, especially down here in the hot sun. I even have some parts of the yard that are the gray stick clay but I just plant in a mound over it and then cover it with mulch. In a year or two, the plant establishes it's own soil and the gray clay doesn't matter.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

We all have special challenges...I live on what used to be a beach: water and amendments just vanish.
But I can dig really big holes if I want, and the beach is so close I can take the wheelbarrow down and fill them up with seaweed!


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Thanks for the pics. It does give me hope. I am in a newer subdivision with grey clay. Planting anything is a huge chore! We've been here 6 months and are seeing very minor improvement from a labor intensive organic regime. It will take years to build up the organic matter. It is so hard the worms stay away. Weeds don't like it any more than grass. That's a plus maybe.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

This article, written by Keith Baldwin, then a professor of soil science at North Carolina State University, appeared in Taunton Press' Kitchen Garden magazine. The current issue of Organic Gardening magazine has an article on improving clay soils that pretty much tells you the same thing, add organic matter.
The one thing any soil, clay or sand, needs is organic matter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Improving clay soils


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Sandy, it will take time and work, but it will get better. We found that using thick mulches (shredded yard waste, leaves, wood chips, whatever we could get cheap or free) on our perennial beds and around trees and shrubs did work over time. The worms did most of the work for us if we just kept piling it on.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Another option is a hugelkultur bed that add huge amounts of organic material to the soil all at once.

And another option I'm trying this year is to dig in large volumes of wood chips. I dug a bed 1.5' deep and then mixed in about 20% wood chips as I refilled the bed with the grey/brown heavy clay soil.

So far both hugelkultur and the "woodchip" beds are doing great, the first season I've had a decent garden in my yard.

It is a lot of upfront work, hopefully it will just become a no-till garden in future years. Also it does take more liquid organic fertilizer than normal to keep the plants green. Harvest is going strong, more veggies than we can eat.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

There's hope. Twelve years ago I started with bare ground and the most horrific clay you can imagine. I cannot forget my dismay the first time I stuck a shovel in it. It was cement. Compost is the solution. Lots of it. :)


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

emgardener:

A huggle what-ur? I know not of what you write but suspect it is of German origin, jawohl?

Rain


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Hugelkultur is one way to add organic matter to soils.

Here is a link that might be useful: hudelkultur


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Here's another link that might be interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hugelkultur in clay soil


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

  • Posted by jolj 7b/8a-S.C.,USA (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 17, 12 at 14:08

Nice pic's.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I agree 100% with toxcrusader. Also, to all of you who say to add organic matter to the soil, you are correct. But do you have any idea how hard it is to work organic matter into red Georgia clay. I converted most of my garden to raised beds this year but I have a 4' x 32' plot left that I am using to grow corn. I took a pick ax to the clay trying to break it up enough to till in the compost. It took me about 2 weeks of hacking away with the pick ax to break the clay up enough to get the tines of the tiller to dig in enough to be able to add any compost. I gave up on this area for this growing season and have actually placed 3 compost bins on top of the clay hoping to get some earthworms to help. But as of now, I still have never seen an earthworm in the old garden even though I have been adding heaps of organic matter every year.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I can believe it yolos, digging clay is no fun and it's a lot harder to homogenize organic matter in than it is with sandy soil because of the clumping.

If I had it to do over again from scratch, I would take the slow approach: choose an area for a raised bed and make a compost pile or lasanga bed on it (if there was extra soil available, or using a little purchased topsoil). Let it cook and add to it for a year, or maybe even two, before turning over and planting. Worms will find it during that time and they and the rest of the Soil Food Web will do a lot of the work for us.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Clay is definitely difficult to work. In daughters southern Ohio garden one year we piled up leaves on the clay and left them over the winter. In the spring, where the leaves were piled, you could take a spading fork and insert it to the end of the tines with no effort, while a foot away where no leaves were that fork would simply bounce on the clay soil.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

You mean to say that using a pick axe and giant spud bar to dig a hole isn't fun? My aching back and blisters on my hands beg to differ!

We are in a new subdivision with the standard sod on top of topsoil free/removed clay fill dirt. I initially tried to just add good amounts of mulch and amend the individual planting holes... it seemed to work okay.. but during the dry summers the ground would crack and I would get the bathtub effect in some of the planting holes would loose some plants... and of course the water bill was high.

So for the past few years I pick a section of bed, remove all the plants to the side, and then double dig it. I remove the worst of the clay/fill dirt and then heavily amend the remaining clay with either compost/manure and now just pure leaf mold. I even break up the bottom of the bed with the spud bar to minimize the bathtub effect. I then mulch with free shredded leaf mold which makes the soil nice and dark too. The worms don't seem to hibernate in their little worm balls like they do in the unamended clay.

It's a ton of work up front, but I figure it will only need to be done once and after I can just added amendments to the surface. And you can obviously just deeply amend small sections at a time... so you don't break you back.

It has been well worth the effort. The deeply amended beds vs the old beds are doing great, even in the horrible heat and drought we have been having this year.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

hugelculture is basically adding decomposed wood to your planting site?


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Hugelkultur is adding wood to soil where it is decayed, by the Soil Food Web, to add organic matter to that soil.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Doesn't have to be decayed to be effective.
For mine, I added mostly dried, not decayed wood.
Some people have even used freshly cut wood.
If you google hugelkultur you'll find a lot of info and a bunch of youtube videos also.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I found a combination of the above mentioned applications worked for me here is southwestern Idaho. Short term I added gypsum in the form of bags of "Soil Buster" to my established grass yard and dirt. I also mulch mow my grass. I added 5 lbs of Alabama Jumpers to yard by digging up spots and seeding with the worms. Layering compost on top has helped. I believe a balanced approach, will get you where you want to be.

For my gardens I have added lots of leaves and compost. This spring I moved my compost piles. Like kimmser said, where I had compost piles last year, the soil is workable and nutritious.


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Organic Matter is the key. But no real good option to get it in deep other then to double dig, and do it for a couple of years.

I agree that it is ridiculously heavy work, but if you add about 12" of organic matter to the 12" of clay ....... gardening will be a lot easier.

Weed pulling becomes easy. Watering becomes easy. Fertilizing isn't even really required for a couple of years after it is done for great growth (assuming the organic matter was very nutrient rich like dairy manure).

Previously growing was so difficult (even when adding soil into each hole I tranplanted a veggie) that I built and ammended my garden way too big.

Now that it is done - I realize I only needed half as much space to grow enough veggies/potatoes/herbs to satisfy my family and friends (zucchini and cucumber in particular grow very large).


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

Mojo, I also added about 12" of material, compost in my case, and dug it in about 12". My results have been the same as yours; everything is easier and plants, shrubs, trees all grow very quickly and get huge without any fertilizer. I continue to mulch with 3-4" of compost at least once a year and have virtually no weeds. There is still clay if I dig deep enough, but I rarely have to dig that deep. The soil that I deal with the bulk of the time is fantastic stuff, if I may say so. :)


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RE: Hope for those with Clay soil

I have experimented with a small section of garden for hugelkulture in Oklahoma. It works. Our soil is a dark clay substance so when I dug down and added woody materials it provided a place for continual moisture and by the behavior of the plants many nutrients versus those growing in other areas with amended clay soils.


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