2. English ivy is an invasive species in much of this country, certainly in any zone 8 climate. I would rethink my groundcover choices.

That soil is used to being moist and will dry to hard pan quickly.

And a layer of mulch is no guarantee the soil is moist anyway, especially within the root zone of large trees.

I have during landscaping uncovered areas that were mulch covered from years to decades and when it dries out, five times out of six what is left is dry, shiny and eventually cracked.
It depends on what was down there when they covered it.
It it was hard soil to begin with the mulch does no magic to change its chemistry.
Water runs off like it does off of a duck back.

I have found that soil, in wooded areas, often beyond the top inch or so is lousy underneath.
If Josh wants Ivy to grow he/she will have to work the soil, that then will be dry and hard without the mulch, most often.

In your situation I think I'd leave the mulch except in the spots where you want to put new plants, pull it back from that spot, dig in some compost and plant the plant in the amended soil. In other words, 'plant through it.'

gardengal, he didn't actually say he was planting English ivy. But you make a valid point. :-D

One thing to be careful of is that if you're under a tree, replacing any significant amount of soil would probably damage some tree roots. That's one reason I thought amending planting holes would be better. It would minimize digging and also keep the soil level basically the same.

Never buy soil ever. We grew plants before we made garden stores! ;)

That's kind of a pointless statement. Why would you say that? I can think of all kinds of situations where one would want to import a quantity of soil. And should certainly not be made to feel guilty to do so.

I know he didn't specify the exact type of ivy but the most common ivy used as a ground cover IS English ivy. And some folks are not aware of this plant's invasive potential......I see no good reason not to point that out. And while it may be an invasive species, I wouldn't go so far to say it was ugly - glossy, evergreen foliage that is pretty much impervious to insect damage, disease or drought. And superb at weed control. There are some very good reasons this plant has been used so extensively!

Frequently landscape renovations call for additions to existing soil or soil levels that simply cannot be met by the current conditions regardless of how much organic matter one adds to it. And one can purchase bulk soil products that have a much higher percentage of OM than just 5%!

Can we please just avoid being so dogmatic about this? It is misleading in the extreme and just a matter of opinion, not fact.

As I said.
"Well the fact is we have been farming/gardening before we made garden centers that you can purchase top soil at."

Whars wrong? Mad you wasted money on buying soil? ;) Now you want new gardeners that are readig this to waste their money too?

There are people that farm to eat.

It is "Kinda sad really" that you would buy soil. ;)

"Listening to some of the advice here, many people will never be able to overcome their depressions."

Like yours? It is funny the average gardener spends more time/money growing their crop then the crop is worth.

High end plant installation would be the only time to buy soil, because it is worth the money.

Otherwise, if you buy soil for growing food, you wasted your money.

Don't worry some day you may understand economics.

So......

darth_weeder,

The only thing that depresses me is to think that there are people out there that would actually take you seriously. ;)

The only thing that depresses me is to think that there are people out there that would actually take you seriously. ;)"

I want to make it clear that what I meant by that was- The joke is on me ;) He was clearly joking, and fell for it. I was being "friendly" in writing that to show it was a joke, but now that I read it, it may not of seemed like that. That is why I placed the " ;) ", meaning it is a joke, after writing it!!! :)

ummm...no it isn't, Organic Forums are here or here.

I tend to disregard most people who deal in 'absolutes' just like I tend to disregard people who state there is only one way to compost or a certain way of composting doesn't work.

Any reasonable person would acknowledge that there may be instances where purchasing some form of 'topsoil' may be necessary and/or beneficial. Any reasonable person would acknowledge there are many ways to compost and circumstances may dictate which method is better/best for an individual.

Lloyd

"There is no need, ever, to spend money buying soil although buying organic matter may be necessary."

kimmsr on Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 6:54

"then maybe there would be a reason to buy soil"

For those that are not familiar with this topic, this discussion has been going on for several years and personally, I see no further benefit to continuing it.

Those that make 'absolute' statements are usually found to be not correct once examined logically using some semblance of good sense.

Lloyd

Ok I see what you mean Lloyd.

"So what, Lloyd, Gardengal, TheMasterGardener, Darth Weeder, do you mean by "topsoil". Define your "topsoil" or cease telling pewople to buy something you have no idea what it is. "

Topsoil is SOIL!!!!! ;)

You can either make or WASTE your money on buying it, it is your choice.

;)

O Lloyd by the way. The name of this topic is-"Use existing dirt vs. buy topsoil?"

So what's your point?

BTW, your constant use of the 'winky' is wearing thin.

Lloyd

The op asked- Use existing dirt vs. buy topsoil.

So I can suggest buying topsoil is a WASTE of money unless there is a higher return to be made in profit.

It does not matter how much money you have, if your spending more to grow a crop then it is worth, your wasting your time.

"I tend to disregard most people who deal in 'absolutes' just like I tend to disregard people who state there is only one way to compost or a certain way of composting doesn't work."

I tend to disregard those that say something about someone when it is not true, like your doing.

In absolutes?

"TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 10:06"

"High end plant installation would be the only time to buy soil, because it is worth the money.

Otherwise, if you buy soil for growing food, you wasted your money.
"

I already said what I need to. Only buy topsoil if it makes economic sense.

;);););)

"Never buy soil ever."

TheMasterGardener1 on Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 10:06

"Only buy topsoil if it makes economic sense."

You can't even agree with yourself within a matter of four days.

Furthermore, gardening isn't just about money or time, most gardeners know this.

Lloyd

How much one spends depends on how much one desire to do a, b or c, plus what time frame one wants, or haves, to work with.

The OP asked if they should buy topsoil for their situation, I then said it makes no sense to buy topsoil EVER. I said that to let people know it is a waste of money to buy something like that for such a reason.

A day ago I stated-

Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 10:06

darth_weeder,
It is "Kinda sad really" that you would buy soil. ;)

High end plant installation would be the only time to buy soil, because it is worth the money.

Otherwise, if you buy soil for growing food, you wasted your money.

So yes my point remanes- "We farmed before we made garden ceneters."

If the native soil was not good enough then it would be fixed,not bring in soil from some where else.

Yes. After one season of realizing I spent more then my harvest was worth, I could never do it again! Ever sense then I found I have increased my productivity!

Ever read the 64 dollar tomato?

And yes, it is entirely dogmatic when you insist in thread after thread that there is "never any reason to buy soil". I'd venture to say you have no idea what the heck you are talking about! Being a professional horticulturist and in the landscape industry for several decades, I can tell you bringing in bulk soil in quantity is a very commonplace and routine occurrence, especially in establishing new landscapes/gardens.

Many posters to this forum have a personal tunnel vision that seems to lead them to assume that vegetable or edible gardening is all there is to gardening. Or that all homeowners have the time, space, priviledge or even the inclination to compost at home or otherwise amend existing soil conditions (particularly in established gardens) on a large scale basis. Or that new landscapes/gardens are not being created routinely and - especially in the case of new construction - that purchased soil is utilized in quantity.

There is a life beyond your own garden, folks. Let's try being a bit more tolerant of those who are not dealing with same conditions you are...........okay?

Maybe my native soil is pretty good and does not need much work as it is.

weird.

G'Day Compost blokes and sheilas.... I finally came back in. Good to see the usual suspects are still here! I missed the forum!

:-)

Lloyd

That is about about what "loam" is. Loam is ideal soil.

Lloyd I noticed you really dont even talk about gardening on here much.

I seem to spend quite a bit of my time on here pointing out the inaccurate information that a very few seem to be intent on giving and wondering where they get this stuff from (on occasion I do ask but seldom get a response so I assume they make it up). Hopefully, others who may be looking for legitimate advice will learn who these folks are and take what they say with a very large grain of salt or, at the very least, do further research to confirm it.

Lloyd

I can see you do know a lot of information.

Here, here!

If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't work, try something else.

Maybe everyone would be happier if they just did things that actually work, instead of being confused by 100 different opinions of things that "work the best".

Each garden site is different, requiring different techniques.

Would that be sandy loam, clay loam, silt loam, or maybe even adobe?

You can't go wrong adding compost to any soil.

Loam is soil composed of sand, silt, and clay in relatively even concentration (about 40-40-20% concentration respectively).

or 50-41-9
or 25-49-26
or 45-20-35

And that doesn't even take into consideration things like sandy loam, silty loam,etc...

This is a fun little toy.

:-)

Lloyd

Some salient points. OP is not a farmer. It is clear he or she is not looking to make an economic gain out of the proposed small modification to their landscape. Also, they did not state that they were into organic gardening. They stated two alternatives, and asked which would be better for their specific gardening need. Presumably "better" here refers to the well-being of the plants in the bed.

The best point here was made by GG, is that they should avoid raising the soil level around existing trees. The rest seems to miss the point or be off-topic. While it's nice that you can amend poor soil with compost, that's not related to the question at hand since OP didn't say he was concerned about poor soil.

Those of us who are not farmers (or nurserymen), who garden as a hobby, understand that like any hobby we will spend on it, in amount that we see fit. Topsoil, at like $20-30/yd is really quite inexpensive. If your soil is garbage, it can be much easier to build raised beds than to engage in a lengthy amendment process. Of course, you have to know what you're getting. But isn't that true for anything?

If I asked you if I should drive my car or walk, would you say "you shouldn't say the word car, because the quality and makeup of cars can be very different depending on the manufacturer"? followed up by the witty quip, "people got around before there were car dealerships"? I pose the question because I wonder if OP feels their question was even addressed, in spite of all the sound and fury.

Joshehansen, I think part of the problem is that it's not clear, specifically what's your concern? Are you worried about digging in the soil around your trees' roots? Or is it removing the existing mulch, that you feel something else should be brought in to take its place? Anyway, thanks for starting such an amusing thread.

One of the purported benefits of using mulch is that as it decomposes, the decomposition products work their way down into the soil, adding "organic matter" to the upper layers of the soil, and resulting in some improvement. Am I naive for believing this?

Organic matter is vastly important, at least if you're growing shrubs and flowers that originate in woodlands or prairies. Some garden vegetables actually do better WITHOUT tons of organic matter - It really depends on what you're growing.

Also, as is discussed in this thread, "topsoil" is a rather broad term - I think that I would add well-rotted compost to soil, rather than "topsoil". I've already got enough clay, sand, and silt in my soil, I need organic matter. "Topsoil", in my opinion, really doesn't help any. Our soil around here varies from spot to spot - We've got 5 different soil types on our property, ranging from loamy clay to clay loam to silt loam. Bottomlands tend to be more silt (along the creek in our back yard is 6 feet of silt loam piled over the glacial till), while uplands tend to have higher clay content.

Sorry, I'm probably getting WAY off topic - My point is, don't buy "topsoil" unless you know EXACTLY what's in it.

Don't worry about it, no one here will complain about getting off topic.

Agreed that topsoil and compost are quite different, topsoil being a soil medium to grow in, and compost being an amendment for such. Different functions and not interchangeable. The confusion in this thread arises because it sounds like OP wants to use "topsoil" as a topdressing, though it's not clear why. However, the rest have all piled onto use of imported topsoil as a growth medium, ignoring its useful functions (and I think for this discussion we can consider "topsoil" to mean desirable topsoil as described above, I won't state the formula again).

To your point of knowing what's in it, I've encountered a problem in the past upon buying bags of "topsoil" in the big box store, which turned out to be nothing other than compost and manure. I don't want to build raised beds out of pure compost and manure!

Well at least it accomplished something!

;-)

Lloyd