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| I ruined my soil... I took someones advice to ammend, and remove old tree roots, etc... and misconstrued.. yes, there was compost, all that... but also, way too much peat (hold water), vermiculite, makes impenetrable crust and nothing gets through, gypsum???... soil is soft, too soft, and too wet.. I've never seen such awful soil... mostly everywhere.. so much for my admendments forever.... the nicest area, huge area, is full of phytoria and it's killed most everything off due to bad drainage and spreading via spreading...
I know the importance of organic matter, pine bark, etc.. but still, my soil is .. so so bad.. I can dig and dig trying to break through the impermable (what?).. and it comes back.. yes, broke though lots of hardpan, all that.. Has anyone ever heard of this, or done this... next to nothing grows in soil like this, even water loving/swamping things.. will the presence of earthworms (They are everywhere, why don't they drown) help.. due something, or will the winter with the breaking/freezing due something.. to help.. something?? I never knew anyone could due to this to soil that used to be horrible and full of crap, but now is.. I'm not too sure, puddles, ponds, soft, or opposite no water goes through... If I keep periodly digging (thus stirring up more hardpan, bad stuff from old rotten roots that then infect everything, and try to mix, will it work.. ? Is there some type of soil person for idiots that tells me what the freaking heck to do? I'm.. amazed.. that's a kind word.. Amy |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Fri, Sep 21, 12 at 20:04
| Sure I have. In a small area I used about 50% or more peat. My soil is clay like btw. The area stayed wet. I added lime too to up the ph. The jalapenos in my native soil just tlled did better then the ones with the peat added. You woul be better off trying to get some more of your native sol mixed in there. I found the best ammendment is compost, dead leaves,ect. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Fri, Sep 21, 12 at 20:45
| Glad I'm not the only one, unfortunaly this was most of my yard... I don't know where my native soil went, or it got full of rotted roots from everywhere thus it's now contaminated with the spores that are killing what's left in ground from waterlogging, and it STINKS.. I lost track of who needs lime, acid, anything... lost track of where I'm trying to grow grass (it's so uneven), and I just know a grey color to the soil is a bad color..only thing growing well (I hope) is buttonbush, I worry it too will die though The clay is beneath the ammendments, so it holds water like a sponge... the yellow jackets and bees love this area, they won't leave the water alone, earlier in summer it was awful jungle like bugs that bit me everywhere... it's, interesting... amy |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Sat, Sep 22, 12 at 0:12
| Try and fix the soil. Amend some compost, and dead leaves. Over time it will fix it self. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Sat, Sep 22, 12 at 6:51
| I am, and won't give up The master gardener, until then so much in pots I'll be stuck with.. perfect time of year now to gain more composting material.. time fixes everything...?? Thanks amy |
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| There are those that will disagree with me on this but I have stated here many timnes over the years that soils need about 6 to 8 percent organic matter and more is simply asking for other problems as you found. Too much organic matter is as bad as too little. Soils need balance just as the plants we grow in those soils need balance. |
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| To much compost does not make a drainage problem, the problem was there before the compost, just not in a notice amount. Deep tillage may help or raised beds to lift plant out of the water logged soil. I always put 25- 30% compost in my raised beds, because I work them year around & have more compost then I need for my 60'X40'garden. I have sandy loam & have never lost a plant to water log soil. Improve your drainage & let the amendments work their way into the soil. |
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| What Joli said. If you have compost over clay, the answer is to dig down, break up the clay, and mix it in with the compost. Much easier said than done. In your situation, I would begin by working on just one spot, maybe 4 feet in diameter, instead of attempting to dig up the whole yard. |
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| Pictures or a simple soil test would be helpful. If the soil has been untouched for some time, it will take a good amount of compost to reach 6-8% organic matter. If all else fails you can get some vegetable soil mix from a local landscape/garden supplier in bulk (by the cubic yard) and build a raised bed with wooden boards or logs. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Sat, Sep 22, 12 at 22:55
| The soil wasn't untouched, it was just.. overammended after massive plant loss... the removal of old trees, roots, rocks, clay clods that were purple took a lot away too...it's to point of being too hard, too backbreaking, Everyday I try, but so much in pots still, waiting, or dying... I don't even have a real holding area .. ugh...plants in pots die, but I can't stick what didn't die back...many died....my body.. can't keep it up, but I don't know what else to do... it's almost like...I'm crazed with pain now, but it's my way of dealing with what seems insurrountable and increasing stress in rest of life... there's always dirt/grit everything through house, on bed (dogs)... deep cuts on hands, a disaster as my brain won't allow me to focus and stay on one task ...but aunt just died, I have no money, other life events have spiraled out of control... maybe this is my last attempt at.. coontroling something so messed up it's out of control amy amy |
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| Gardening should be fun, especially if you are not doing it for a living (probably even then.) It sounds like you might be trying to do too much at once. Scale back quite a bit - some things take time, you'll get there. About the smell - Best of luck! |
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| If your soil is that wet you either have a drainage problem or you have a artesian spring. I would tell you to take a powered post hole digger and see what is down there but fifty miles from here while a city was improving a somewhat bogged area they hit a major artesian spring and the area for developement is now under water. Ammending had diddly squat to do with your problems. |
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- Posted by billums_ms_7b Delta MS 8A (My Page) on Sun, Sep 23, 12 at 5:59
| I don't think you've ruined your soil. The good news is that when you start letting organic matter decompose on top of heavy soil, it really helps to loosen up that soil over time. I can remember the HGTV Gardener Guy saying he had an area with horrible soil and his solution was to cover the area with a very thick layer of dead leaves and just leave them there to break down. Basically sheet composting, but he didn't use that phrase. I have the worst clay imaginable everywhere, and I have found this to be excellent advice. I would say that in your climate the best thing to do would be to wait for things to dry out next spring and then till the hell out of it to mix your overabundance of organic materiel at the surface into your native soil. Remember that you definitely don't want to work heavy soil when it is wet. You'll be making bricks. If you were exceptionally patient, you could just wait for the excess organic material to break down and enrich your soil, but you sound like you are more the rarin' to go type. I've got areas in my yard where the previous owner had trouble getting monkey grass to grow that are now covered with a good foot of ground up tree limbs from power company tree crews, shredded leaves, locally available agricultural waste... I just pile it on thick year after year. Now when you dig down into it at the bottom is the most beautiful black gold you can imagine. I'll be able to grow early blooming peonies someday, darnit! Keep the faith. Some things take time. |
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| Numerous studies have indicated that excess organic matter in soils can be problematic, although most concentrate on excess nutrients in the soil not the increased water holding properties. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Too much OM in soil?
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| Amy, lets look at the positives first. 1. you have worms which is a very good sign. They will consume the organic material and leave their castings which will balance the soil. 2. winter is coming - I think you are in about zone 6 so should have some winter. This gives tired gardeners a break so please take it! Sounds as if you are worn down and really need a break. 3. you still have some live plants in pots. Are they in good potting soil or did you use garden soil? If the latter can you repot in potting soil and remember to water as needed? It's the only way those plants will survive and it would be too bad to lose them all. Now, you may have a problem with drainage but I'd ignore that until next spring unless you notice a real excess of water somewhere. It could be an artesian spring but it also could be a leaking pipe somewhere. Don't want to borrow trouble but it's something to think about. Is there someone you know that can advise you? This problem may need a knowledgeable person to look at it IRL. Wishing you all the best! Please let us know how it works out. |
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| Get some gardening gloves so you don't cut your hands. Focus on a small section to start, say two feet by four feet, and don't worry about the rest. If you are going to dig the soil, mix compost, leaves, grass clippings deep into the soil so that what you have is about 10-25% compost. You can make a small hill or plateau to help with drainage. You could cover this area with straw or leaves and let it sit over the winter for planting in the spring. You could also grow plants in containers using 'potting mix.' You might find this easier, but the specifics are a little different than planting in the ground (what to feed and how often to water). Hang in there, we're here to help. There's a lot to learn from reading the messages on this board. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Sun, Sep 23, 12 at 16:05
| well, i did learn the hard way about ammending, don't... yes, tons of worms, some in the boggy soil are greyish and I wonder why they aren't pink...good thing, other than a multitude of "click beetle" larva (little orange worms, everywhere, I kill all I see, so many) there's hardly any bad bugs in soil (good or bad?).. spiders, yes.. they are okay.. I know it should be fun, and each day I wake up and after the medical issues subside a bit (pain, all that) I start out gung ho, it just doesn't last... I need to be out there... there's something in my makeup... i know it doesn't make sense to any of you... how else can I cope when I'm told I need a blood transfusion IMMEDIATELY or I could have a heart attack (that then turned into a possible mistake).. and I had noway of doing that, and it's not safe for me... or that I'm losing all my teeth yet have no dental insurance...or that the steroids will cause issues A-R, and have... or that my bones are worse, and the fractures and stuff won't heal... or that I won't respond to treatment, and the treatments are so brutal.... or that people told me it's stolen my life, and I think I still try to garden.. I still have a passion... or that my brain is being so attacked, but now other things... or the months he talked about mortality... or the PAIN, PAIN, embarrassment over what it's done to me, the worry of the weight loss... how else could I cope? I have noise intolerances, I can't watch TV or focus on a real book, I'm restless always from pain or the meds.. It's coping... they say use it or lose it...How else can I cope when I don't know literally if I'll be able to move tomorrow, or it will be a day where I'm too sick to do anything? That's why I do this, or.. and the poverty level thing too now... Amy Gardengal, the live plants in pots are what worries me, I've successfully in past overwintered most everything in pots (garage, outside) and not killed, last year I slipped, I know it's best not too.. yes, i'm beyond worn down but can't stop.. b/c I feel so desperate for some distraction... something to go right.. so I don't feel ... scared... or someting....b/c it takes my mind off things, in a way... the plants in pots are mostly in miracle grow with perlite, NOT my choice ever... too wet, some I did try to ammend today with some pine bark, etc I found on ground, but can't afford to get the better admendments (for drainage) for about 10 days...only a problem if too rainy...but some of larger plants were thrown in pots in my frustration/rage to deal with better later (roots pruned), and some have been in too long, but too tired to pot up... I don't overwater the pots, but I worry rain may finally come and rot... yes, I can water anytime.. I WISH I knew of someone (Free) who could advise, anyone...I don't know.. garden man from garden center criticized the arborist who was here before (who I didn't trust with some of his words).. parents say give up.. not much else, master gardeners I've tried in past, a joke... (the ones on phone).. I have lots of gardening gloves, to the point now of not caring about certain ones for certain areas, I wear through fingers... I have junk everywhere.Someone walking by today said "her yard used to look so nice"...I have my work periods, then drop periods.. |
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| Check out your Master Gardener program. Penn State runs your agricultural extension offices - they have trained volunteers and even agriculture professionals, and would be glad to help. It looks like they even operate a gardening hotline. Link Below. Best of Luck! |
Here is a link that might be useful: http://extension.psu.edu/allegheny/programs/master-gardener/gardening- hotline
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| oops, just reread that you had tried your extension - but I would try again, maybe you will get someone different. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Mon, Sep 24, 12 at 10:28
| "Ammending had diddly squat to do with your problems." RpR, Your right Ammending had nothing to with it. Amending the soil too much was the problem. :) |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Mon, Sep 24, 12 at 12:21
| Agreed, and the last thing you want to do at this point is add more organic matter! Here's my amateur interpretation: You added a large amount of organic matter to the top layer of soil, and you've said there is hardpan underneath. The increased organic matter is holding a lot of moisture, rain doesn't run off but soaks in, but it can't go down through the hardpan. The water combined with high organic matter has created an anaerobic swamp. Too much water, not enough air, high organic matter content, your microbes are now stinky anaerobic ones. The smell is much more related to all the organic amendments rather than tree roots, IMHO. The solution is drainage, NOT more organic matter. Someone said earlier to dig deeper, which would hopefully break up the hardpan (depending on how deep it is, this may or may not fix it) to improve drainage, as well as 'dilute' the high organic matter content with more native soil. I agree it's best not to do this when wet, but we're going into fall, so even if you do dig clay when wet, by spring the freeze/thaw cycles will have corrected the clod effect if it occurs. I take it there isn't any kind of slope here that would allow water to drain. If there is any way to dig a shallow trench to let water drain off somewhere, you might consider that. Try to relax, you and Mother Nature can probably fix this. |
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| Was the primary ammendment peat moss? Peat is sterile in terms of nutrients. It sounds like giving it all time to work its way in is your best option at this point. Let the worms do their thing. |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Mon, Sep 24, 12 at 18:02
| "yes, there was compost, all that... but also, way too much peat (hold water), vermiculite, makes impenetrable crust and nothing gets through, gypsum???..." Kinda hard to tell from this exactly how much of what was added. |
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| The poster says it is crawling with earthworms but is too wet. Something sounds rather bogus here. If it actually is full of earthworms there is no over ammneding and if it is too wet there are not earth woms every where. The entire posters paragraphs sound bogus to me and I am being kind. It is 5o much like another post where there are pictures of tall corn in full cob that was supposedly planted on Aug. 10. |
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| RpR, the questions are legitimate -they just reflect quite a bit of frustration about many things that we might not understand.,. not being there. Seeking help locally in Pittsburgh is probably the best option. |
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| "If it actually is full of earthworms there is no over ammneding and if it is too wet there are not earth woms every where." Not true...I put some of my compost in a tub...it was already pretty wet...forgot the lid...3 days later the tub is full to the brim with water, and to my surprise, the earthworms are still alive. Amy, one thing you can do right now...put your potted plants under the eaves, or someplace else to protect them from the rain, just to dry them out a little before winter. Miracle Gro is perfectly fine to overwinter plants in...I do it just fine. |
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| I have wickedly aweful clay and we had crazy drought this past summer. The rain we are receiving now comes in waves. 3" or nothing. The clay is so dried out and compacted currently that water just rolls off of it. The soil level in my yard has dropped several inches. Compost seems to be working its way in slowly. The areas that I topdressed with peat are weird water absorbing mats. If the OP had the same sort of drought then rain and primarily used peat, she has created a bog that will remain until the clay underneath slowly rights itself. |
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| The poster was orginally in Pitt. Penn. but suddenly is not. Look up the soil type in that area, bogus post. |
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| RpR, I am sorry I had assumed that because a member had been around for a while... Rpr was right. I thought that the problems happened recently. Just check the posts. I feel pretty bad, I will have to check for this in the future. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 11:10
| So what your saying is this whole question is a "sham"? |
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- Posted by greyandamy pittsburgh, pa (My Page) on Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 12:52
| A sham? no energy, guys... my brain is overloaded and fried... I live in pittsburgh, sometimes it's easier to post that than zone 6 as sometimes zone 6 people think poconos, etc.. whatever, the problems have happened over a year (time blurred), I work on it when I can... Sandy, kinda like you... I went nuts for awhile and bought all kinds of "recommended" Ammendments (lesson learned, dont) including this peat that's great at holding water... and lowes vermiculite that forms crust.. I just added ...it looked good at first??... now, just breaking up,, No, I do know drainage, and letting frost break up.. sorry guys, I guess posts too long can get... dramatic... No more organic matter, just.. waiting amy THANK You all for your time |
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| Amy, you have lupus, correct? I just want to encourage you to take it one day at a time, garden-wise. It will still be there when you go into remission (which will be soon, I hope.) |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 14:02
| I was making it clear I don't think greyandamy would make this all up! :) I really encurage you to start now mulching with organic material, your soil will fix itself. Dead leaves, grass, ect, are all things you can brodcast and mulch your garden area with, over time it will be good. You will build correct soil on top. Crop residue is very important in building som or soil organic matter. I simply take my plants that have been harvested and lay them as mulch, stalks, leaves, roots, they all act as mulch that feeds the soil, in turn making soil. I dont just use any plants like weeds and other things that may have seeds the next year that could sprout and take over. I was amazed when I took only dead leaves and mulched an area, by the spring the soil changed. |
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| Just read the other posts made by this poster, on other sites, she, if it is a she, contradicts herself. Troll BS. There is no reason to ever change zone setting. Hers changes continually. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 17:30
| To clarify, I have had a severe (it's not responding to any treatments, we've gone through nasty things)... lupus. It's nonresponsive... it's the kind that primary attacks the CNS (brain, things related to that). Though with me it's left nothing untouched. If I contradict myself, it's completely out of my control. The inflammation is through my body and it's caused ... severe issues that wax and wane. When the disease flares more, I have no recall of things, or what I say, I can hallucinate, seize, become very obsessive and anxious, etc... The multitude of drugs, chemos, and steroids they have me on don't help. Esp. the IV steroids I just again received, they are toxic doses (done lots of permanent damage) done if there's nothing to lose.. the side effects are... extreme... each time I cry and say NEVER again.. I'm now still going through the side effecfs of those, those relaly mess with your cogntion, etc too.. and make me do say things I have no recall of. I have little focus often,my body's really messed up...if a zone changed either I wasn't "All there"... or my fingers weren't working (7 weeks of an arm injury).. the disease is life threatening, thus the treatments. Each month I get the chemo that may not be working, I'm sick and also out of of it... I write in desperation at times b/c part of the disease causes obsessions/neurosis/paranoia... and my having no recall (the scariest)... I don't want sympathy, I want to explain... 6 years ago it was starting, I was into everything, nursing 2 jobs, supervisor, ultra runner, gardener. This disease has slowly taken pretty much all... it's not improving... but stress causes setbacks (And sun, and doing too much, and...)... and there's always stresses.. aunt died, car broke and cost $600 I didn't have, teeth breaking (steroids, other disease) and no dental insurance,financial los. I'm basically homebound due to necessity, I find piece only out there.. but in bad times I'm not aware it's flaring more (yes, pain and all) but that's when Im more... seem nuts..It's one thing I still love, when depression and others seem bad at times... but I Can't prove... And my brain... I lost a lot they don't know if it will return... They don't know if some mini strokes, seizures, I had some nasty falls... Over the years I stop making outside contact b/c I'm too conscious of my appearance (look sick), people judge if they see you walking funny, or bleeding, or looking ... emaciated... or in pain. Sometimes though, I'm so angry b/c nothigs working and he keeps making me sicker (not deliberately) and I can't being in the house that's a disaster... and there's really not family support in that way... Sometimes I'm so angry at the pain and the drugs and the constant injuries and it seems more bad news (lupus is attacking your red blood cells this month, you may need a transfusion, which is risky with you)... your arm is so swollen, go immediately to ER (I won't), you need to be hospitalized ("why?"... weight loss...it's the meds)... I need to breath, outside is where I can breath. I lost most every other thing, I need air and birds and the agitation/restless that comes with this always... I need out, but I've learned stupid mistakes after... Do what you love, you must. I'm too sensitive too, and paranoid... the post above hurt but I can understand, I probably seem crazy, it's a wonder I'm not.... it never leaves, never... and it's not getting better. I can't plan a year from now, I don't care. I want to seize the moment. When it drops below 60 my hands and feet don't work. The drizzle/rain (so rare) hurt bones, the drugs have caused so much damage I'm just numb... benefits/risks... I could care less about material things, or a clean house, can't even focus.. outside I must play games with the sun, to avoid, or the rash gets worse... if I overdo still out there, I suffer.. There's a lot of down time, the exhaustion is unreal (plus pain), I have more garden magazines then ever, and when I can sit or am agitated I come to these forums.. and piss people off... b/c I sound nuts.. my immune system is just out of control... actually, compromised due to drugs but still attacking any part of body it wants to. The pain/weakness got worse, so I can't use a wheelbarrow currently, or a shovel (so it's the trowel), till the lungs got inflammmed, then it hurt.. then I'm so angry at this never ending.. I try harder... b/c nobody realizes it's important to me... the birds, the seclusion (if i ever get things right).. they say rest, lay low, I can't... too unfocused, and winter/wet will be here soon enough. Just weaker, too many setbacks this year. I'm not superwormna......I'm not cognitively ...well, wasn't born slow, I'm not a psych case (Seems like it).. it's just the disease, as he mentions more options (more sickness).. the risks increase, like a stem cell contraversial thing in toronto but I can't do car trips well, and the death rate is too high for parents to cope with...Steroids and malnutrion cut my skin up, but I'm bound and determined, I lost the money .... I can't lose more... if I have to sell, my dad says "nbobody would buy, nobody would steal, nobody"... well, that hurts... I won't give in... Use the body or lose it, I've lost a lot, I can still do some... in increments... it puts me in my own place of calmness sometimes, it helps with the frustration or anxiety... I screw up a lot b/c I guess I take everyones advice too personally and believe everyone knows what they are talking about... I want to be good at one thing... I used to be... I still can't figure out how I change my zone, but I can't grasp basics like the stupid calculator or even email is too much now...my brains inflammed, oh, and severe anemia does something that they say makes you act demented... Not sympathy, just... had to get it out... others have lupus and respond to something... they are still trying.. only 6 years, he says... we're still trying... when it's severe it robs your whole life... and most of your independence... imagaine not being able to handle going to a grocery store except maybe once a month and at a time when nobodys there... or dealing with someone on the phone about a legitimate issue, but then losing what they are saying and getting too agitated... or forgetting I have phone messages, and getting yelled at for not returning... or not always being able to shower, or being 90 pounds, unable to bend that day, and having people stare and whisper... amy |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 17:40
| My time, thank you... I can't slow down sometimes... I feel ... an urgency... a lot of it's the steroids (Such high dose)... other medical issues crop up too, and it's probably a hidden anxiety that I keep bottled up... I do take one day at time, and I have days (depressing) when I can't get out there at all... It doesn't want to remit....it wants to keep adding new autoimmune diseases on, and issues I didn't have (body is tired, too much, too many drugs, body is so tired)...who knows, the IV steroids do usually do something (live through the side effects)... The master gardener, thank you deeply... i'll do what you say as it's easy, no tilling... an arborist may come in again to see if some things are as they should be, but only if he's free, he came in feb... recommended ammending the soil....didn't know who he was talking too(smile)... if he doesn't come, oh well.... it's pouring here, wasn't calling for it, flood issues from the nonpermable issues, oh well... plants in pots don't like this.. we haven't had rain like this forever...wonder if it sinks in? OPh, there was mention of a time issue that lost me (What doesn't)... I haven't a sense really, when did it start, when I got my backpay SSDI and went crazy/nuts putting deer fencing everywhere (and parents had to get down, as I lost energy)...looked like heck, cost like heck..the massive ordering of online plants... the unusually warm winter and my flaring that caused me to do nutty nutty things that thankfully most I can't remember, but sense of time, I haven't a clue what month, or any of that... it doesn't matter really... amy |
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| Stop using peat! It is that simple. I am guessing that most people have never been near a peat bog, which is VERY specific as to its nature. I try to avoid buying any amending matter that contains peat for 2 reasons. 1> Peat will hold water till hell freezes over and just makes a bog in the end. 2> Peat bogs are very rare these days and what few are left should be kept that way! |
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- Posted by dianne0712 7 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 14:43
| I am here to contradict all of the experts . When we first moved her it was my first garden. The soil is very heavy, pure clay. It is undiggable as soon as it dries out and cracks. I couldn't even bet a shovel in it. All the helpful internet sites told me to add peat.Well, I couldn't afford to go buy peat at first, but after a few years I saved up some money and added a bunch.. I was so pleased at how it seemed to lighten the soil as I laboriously dug it in. Result? Brick, with water underneath. It was anither few years before I saw some websites advising that the 2 most common amendments recommended for clay, sand and peat, will produce brick. Never , never use peat! Did I fix it? You bet. I read 2 things that changed my soil for me. One was a guy who said he piled mulch onto the beds and then made sure he walked on them to break the mulch down and grind it in. A new layer every year and after 3 years he had perfect soil 1 1/2 ft deep. The second was lasagna gardening, but I didn't quite follow her directions. I had a lot of weeds and crummy soil and wanted to make new beds. I dumped UNCOMPOSTED organic material on top of my peat bricks with water. All my saved kitchen scraps, the apples from my tree, anything, just as they were, THEN I covered it with 8 layers of wet newspaper, then I mulched on top. Beautiful. Her problem isn't too much organic material, it's that she used PEAT. Dump on leaves, kitchen scraps anything that isn't PEAT (the root of all evil). Nowadays when I've collected a coffee can of kitchen scraps (no meat or fat) I dig a hole, dump it in and then cover it up again. The worms and wet conspire to get rid of it in less than a week and every year, my soil is great just a little deeper than it was last time.Beautiful, dark, loamy soil. No peat, no sand. |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 16:23
| Amy, I feel bad for you with regards to both your disease and your gardening problems. As another poster mentioned, gardening should be fun and it should provide a release for you from your day-to-day health issues, not create more stress. If you've been dealing with this soil issue for a while - and I am surmising from your posts you have - then I am thinking you'd like to have it fixed sooner rather than later. So you can actually enjoy your garden! Many of the previous comments are helpful but are uniform in the understanding that this is not a fast fix -correcting soil problems never is. One way you can work around that is to import decent soil and pile it on the problem areas to create berms or mounded/raised planting beds. You do not need these raised areas to be that deep - only around 6" at the apex (although deeper doesn't hurt) - and drainage will be instantly improved just by virtue of elevation. Of course you will need to remove any existing plants in these areas and then replant after the soil is brought in. Once replanted and the roots established in the 'good' soil, they will help to break up and loosen the underlying soil. Some plants are very good at this. Eventually, you will have improved drainage even in the hardpan or underlying clay, just by virtue of the plant roots - soil improvement without any manual labor ! I think you also mentioned you are on a budget. Importing bulk soil is not all that expensive - in my locale somewhere around $20-25 or so a yard and rate declines with higher volume - and is well worth a modest investment to give you something decent to work with ASAP and get you enthused about gardening again. Probably far less than all the money you've invested in needless amendments over the years. Peat does have some uses in the garden, so not exactly the root of all evil but I can think of no good reason to ever include vermiculite in garden soil. It is expensive and does NOTHING to improve drainage. Once vermiculite is saturated with water, it collapses and all pore space is lost, thereby impeding drainage rather than helping it. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 16:38
| dianne0712, Yes thanks for backing up what I was saying. Just mulch with organic matter and the soil organic matter will improve. You will make soil. Importing bulk soil? lol ;) |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 18:10
| What's so LOL about bringing in bulk soil?? Certainly is a far more rapid method than what anyone else proposes and is a remarkably common practice. btw, you can't "make" soil........not unless you have some supernatural powers we are unaware of. Gosh, the amount of crap that gets written on these forums is absolutely astonishing. And does nothing to help folks like Amy with real and pressing problems. |
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- Posted by novascapes none (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 20:16
| Some very interesting posts. Peat moss is sterile? Well it does support the bacteria used for inoculation of legumes and is actually grown in it. Dig the hard pan deeper? Well if you have a bucket, which is usually what you have when digging a bed into clay, and then you dig it deeper don't you just end up with a bigger bucket? I have used spent potting soil(mostly peat, Perlite, sharp sand and fine bark mulch) by the trailer truck load on my garden over the top of hard clay soil. It was tilled into the top 2 inches of soil. This gave me about 8 or 10 inches growing media on top. Another 2 inches of compost was later added to the top. After a short time the earth worms came. The garden has no drainage issues and not crusty top layer. All my flower beds have a 4 inch layer of the potting media plus a yearly layer of compost added. No tilling or digging has ever been done to them and I have plenty of earth worm. The hard Clay below the top layer I have added have improved as time has gone on. It is fairly easy to control the moisture of the peat mix if all you do is water either manually or sprinkler but sooner or later it will rain and then you have a bog if drainage has not been provided. I fought hard clay with forks, grubbing hoes and even jackhammers for years until I learned to just leave it alone and help nature take care of it. If your amendments are drying out and forming a hard water barrier then I would suggest putting a 2 inch layer of mulch over the top and by watering a little more often. As far as the original poster goes it sounds as though the buck has already been dug and to much peat has been used. What I would do at this point is to ditch around the bed, and of course lead the ditch as to drain. The ditch could actually be built as a french drain. Then I would add a lot of good drain elements to the soil you have made. Fine ground bark mulch works well. Perlite also works but comes to the top and is ugly. Some course sand may help. We don't want to forget lots of organic matter. You want the soil to be able to drain out to the drain installed around the bed. Also dig down to the root zone before watering. If it is moist then you might only need to moisten the top to keep in from hardening up, which it shouldn't do if the right proportions of amendments are made. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 11:53
| "Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 16:23 "Many of the previous comments are helpful but are uniform in the understanding that this is not a fast fix " O really. Hear that everyone?
I said many times just mulch with organic material to improve the soil. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 14:34
| There are many different types of "organic material" - Peat is regarded as such, but in my opinion, is a miserable soil amendment. I usually use composted hardwood bark in new gardens, and then mulch with good (not dyed, ground-up pallets) black hardwood bark mulch. Makes all the world of a difference! Sometimes, I'll even dig in coarse sand (not beach sand), like washed creek gravel (a creek goes through our back yard, and there's one spot that fills in with sand and gravel every time the creek rises). |
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| @kikifoow "1> Peat will hold water till hell freezes over and just makes a bog in the end. 1. peat will hold water - that's exactly why you use it. Unless you can afford to buy it by the dump truck, that won't be a problem unless you have very special soil conditions. When it doesn't rain for a week, it's a huge blessing. 2. Peat bogs are not very rare - that's a very silly thing to say. The claim is that if peat bogs continue to be mined, then over many decades the ecosystem will start to be harmed. Try going to Canada to see - there are bogs that stretch as far as the eye can see from 30,000 feet. @jimbofeeny Peat has been used for decades by gardeners with excellent results. Peat isn't 'considered' organic material - it IS organic material. I have no idea what kind of point you're trying to make with that statement. but it's just silly. plant material is organic material. Unless you think organic doesn't mean organic, and has some new secret meaning. |
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- Posted by novascapes none (My Page) on Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 22:03
| greyandamy There is another solution to your problem which I used with a very similar problem. Rather than go through all the work of try to transform what you already have why not just plant something that grows in boggy soil. Since peat is consider acidic I would also keep that in mind if you decide to go that route. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Sun, Sep 30, 12 at 8:08
| Look up the difference between Mull and Mor humus, and maybe you'll know what I'm talking about... And, trust me: Peat moss isn't exactly the best soil amendment. Hardwood bark and leaves have a lot of nutrients in them, whereas peat is rather devoid of nutrients. Hardwood bark and leaves release ample nutrients when they rot, while conifer needles and peat form an acidic, nutrient-poor humus. Go into a patch of hardwood forest (beech, oaks, maples, etc), and note the rich understory and many shrubs. In young forests, the shrub and herb layer is much more dense due to higher light levels, while in older patches, the ground is a bit more bare (Except in the spring!). Conifer forests don't really have much of a ground layer, except for mosses and possibly some acid-loving, shade tolerant shrubs. But, there is nowhere near the diversity there is in hardwood forests. So, I'm sorry to dissagree, but there is VAST differences in the sources of organic matter - While carbon is carbon, that is not all that is to consider. Different trees have different nutrient levels in their leaves. Peat is organic matter, and hardwood bark is organic matter, but compare the nutrient analyses of each... |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Sun, Sep 30, 12 at 18:56
| lots of pain guys, and the depression is really bad from meds/pain/issues... just quicky, I cry a lot... budget is budgeted out, no more admendments ever, compost maybe... problem is I still have trees I had to move to containers (too outgrown) that are struggling.. Lots of lessons learned, back yard... neighbors just look at me, 2 said sadly she needs help.. I can't.. BAD THING, I was told to add straw (not hay, since no seeds) when growing grasss... in my lupus way or whatever, dirt got washed on grass, the it turned into cement... just trying at some points to uncover the hay, it was an impentatrable, boggy mess... god knows what I did with admendments, chances are I'd get a bunch, throw them in frustration at times, plan to till in, and forget.. the water holding peat... FORGET... some of the bog I dumped on side of house, it has the straw mixed in, I don't know if the straw will ever decompose.. some of these particles of too much vermiculite, I just hope go... huge holes, craters, in back yard now... now it rains and now the mud is extreme, but I can't...focus anymore, I pace, I cry at times, I pace... I HATE how others watch me... The steroids didn't help like they should've, the side effects are horrible (agitation, depression, no thoughts, rages), but the joints are too bad My $120 edith bogue, was in a bog, she was rotting so slowly, desperation, I washed off as much as I could, ungirdled some roots, so much root damage, I cut off with bleach what I could, tons, she probably rotted her tap... No energy or ingrediatiants to try to save her yet, I antifungied her roots (So few now) but now her lower bARK IS HSOWING RED, AND SOME OTHER WIERD BARK ISSUE, THOUGH HER LEAVES STILL LOOK OKAY, BUT HER ROOT MASS IS LIKE 1/4 OF THE SIZE, AND SOME ARE STILL ROTTING... ANYONE KNOW, IS IT WORTH IT TO TRY TO SAVE? iN POT, ALL I HAVE IS SOME TURFACE AND MIN. PINE BARK FINES (TOO TIRED TO SIFT)..i CAN'T FIGHT ANOTHER TREE ISSUE IF IT'S NOT WORTH IT LESSON LEARNED 2- DO NOT TEMPORARILY POT IN STRAW, BIG MULCH, WHATEBER... GARDEN CENTER SAID IT WAS OKAY, MY ONE FRINGE LOST 3/4 OF IT'S ROOTS, AND THERE'S A SMALL HOLE IN BASE, I PUT IN GROUND SHORT TERM TODAY (tHAT HURT), BUT WORRIED B/C THERE'S PYROTHORIA ALL THROUGH THAT SOIL, AND WONDER, IF i GET THE RIGHT INGREDIANTS, IF IT'S WORTH TO TRY TO OVERWINTER INI POT TO REGENERATE SOME ROOTS AND HELP THAT BARK HOLE... THE SOIL ISN'T RIGHT, IT'S.. FEELS FUNNY... THE PLANTS IN REGULAR MIRACLE GROW WITH PERLITE ARE KINDA OKAY BUT NEED WORK, SEVEN SONS SEEMS TO BE REVIVING, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT CONTORTED FILBERT, PAPERBARK i WORRY ABOUT.. THEY WERE THE MORE EXPRENSIVE, OH AND A JAPANESE MAPLE THAT'S SHOWING SOME red roots AT TOP OF POT.. RED ISN'T NORMAL? mY OTHER FRINGE, THAT DIED BACK SO MUCH, i DON'T KNOW, WHERE i HAVE BETTER DRAINAGE (pMAYBE) i HAVE POSSIBLE DEEP ROCKS, THE FRINGE NEEDS SPACE FOR THE TAP... mY GREEN GIANT i DIDN'T MEAN TO HURT, BUT IT WAS PLANTED IN POT TOO DEEP, SMALL BARK WOUND AND SOIL IS LESS THAN.. GREAT... LOTS OF IT'S ROOTS WERE LOST, IT WAS FINE UNTIL i REALIZED IT WAS RIGHT AT EDGE OF SLUDGE, MOVING IT.. WELL, PRAY IT GETS SOME ROOTS BACK, MAYBE IT'S TOO HIGH, OH WELL.. MY MOM TOOK A FEW LITTLE THINGS TO HOLD FOR ME.. SHE KEEPS SAYING PUT THEM IN, COUNT YOUR LOSSES.. i CAN'T, i CAN'T THINK, IT HURTS.. i LOST 2 BIGGER ALLEGHENY VIBURNUMS, BOG, ONE IS IN POT, 2 i MEAN TO PROPOGATE BUT CAN'T THIS YEAR... NURSERY i WENT TO IN TEARS, i LOST SO MUCH FROM THEM, THEY SAY BAD ROOTS AREN'T THEIR PROBLEM, AND MANY OTHER THINGS, BASICALLY WHAT YOU BUY YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING HOW TO PLAANT, ATTEND TO ROOTS, (EVEN IF STRANGLED), ETC... THEY GAVE ME $25 FOR $70 RIVER BIRCH... i WAS SO OUT OF IT AND CONFUSED AND MADE A SCENE THAT i CAN'T GO BACK THERE AGAIN... THEY OVERCHARGE, AND THIS YEAR WON'T GUARANTEE.. SORRY, VENTING, EVENINGS ARE HARD.. EVERYTHINGS HARD QUESTION ABOUT COMPOST, i'VE BEEN LAYERING IT ON IN SPOTS, NOT MIXING, BUT NOT THE ENERGY OR STRENGTH ANYMORE TO COLLECT BAGS, i'LL TRY... BUT... IF i KEEP LAYERING WITHOUT MIXING SOIL IN WILL IT BREAK, SO SLOW.. SORRY, TOO MUCH TALK, MAYBE TOMORROW WONT RAIN.. I JUST CAN'T KEEP UP ANYMORE... LESSONS LEARNED HARD WAY, NEVER THOUGHT I'D BE SO SO TIRED... AMY |
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| Mytime, I have worked with earthworms most of my life & found dead worms after a hard rainstorm all my life. You are mistaking or misleading in your commit. Earthworms can NOT live in water. Show me a site that says I am wrong. You may have had something that held the water above the soil the worms are in, but the worms will not stay in saturated soil. Every 5-6 grade science class knows this experiment. |
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| Well this was posted by greyandamy on Sept. 21, 2012 ---------------------------- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Fri, Sep 21, 12 at 18:42 GORGEOUS!!!!!!!! My problem, big problem, is basically my whole yard is taken up with issues (old, existing, etc) of phytoria (spelling??) root rot... It's hard to believe, but the yard is small overall with big sick trees in back with shallow roots, or old dead roots. An arborist told me I could plant anything anywhere, forget the roots, I improved drainage, still, disturbing the soil, or just having it everywhere, literally... both fringes started to get it... they are in pots, but can't stay indefinitely and one I don't know about, both actually.. plus, they get such deep deep roots I've read that you can't plant them near any sources of old roots (in soil, that's everywhere) or they will succumb to the disease.. thus I'm very sad.. have same issue with mult. other trees...I honestly may have a yard with nothing..They are gorgeous... Amy |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 10:28
| What is? And what's a fringe? Some sort of tree? |
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- Posted by lisanti07028 z6NJ (My Page) on Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 11:51
| She was talking about fringe trees, Chionanthus; someone had posted pictures in the Trees forum of their (not Amy's) fringe trees. |
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| Read some of the posters other posts through search and you will quickly see the poster has bogus problems. In one she says she has drainage problems which are neighborhood related and in another the top foot of soil is great; meanwhile while the poster says the yard is small the posters threads make it sound like a forest was removed and another is being planted plus there is a mound of dirt in the yard where the poster is supposedly trying to grow grass etc., etc., etc. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 14:52
| Sheesh, are you here to help, or are you just trying to find someone to criticize? Would it hurt to be SOMEWHAT sensitive? |
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| Sensitive to bogus posts, why? They they cannot be helped, nor do they need help. I have seen other troll posts on other threads and I give them all the same amount of help. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 7:08
| ??? Hmmmmmmm... This person has been posting for a year or two, so I kind of doubt it is a "troll". |
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| I also don't believe that Amy is a troll - she's dealing with a major medical problem as well as an immediate problem with her soil. Her medications are making it difficult for her to find a solution. However, the usual response to a troll is to ignore it and it soon goes somewhere else, so if RpR truly believes this is a troll issue, then the answer is "RpR: Don't Feed the Troll! Stop Responding!". Amy: It's getting late in the season for active gardening unless you bring in bulk soil as gardengal suggests - an excellent solution but cost is probably an issue. You may be better off just adding organic material per The Master Gardener's suggestion and letting the soil heal itself. That leaves you with a lot of energy and stress that still need to be relieved if you can't work outside in the garden. Does exercise help? Maybe fast walking in local parks or nature preserves will help calm you. You're loaded with a very heavy burden and I wish I could help. Claire |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 11:37
| I don't know about adding more organic matter Claire, it sounded to me like an anaerobic swamp with high organic matter and not enough drainage. It does appear there is some (considerable?) confusion on the part of amy and the posts seem erratic and hard to follow. I would not classify that as trolling, however. We may be of very limited help in this situation, but I would advise anyone who doesn't feel like helping just to let it be and move on. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 11:45
| This is why it is so hard to help someone on here that is asking questions. So much opinions not backed by science. "You may be better off just adding organic material per The Master Gardener's suggestion and letting the soil heal itself." Thank you very much claire. |
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- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 18:59
| Here we go. Watch this. Notice how all they had shiped in was wood compost, and "bio" compost, no topsoil... Check out how bad the native soil is! |
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| Tox: I'm thinking of basically adding organic material as a mulch, as a Band-Aid not an amendment - something to cover the sick soil and then to go away and leave it alone to recover. Covering it should make the yard look as if there's a remedy going on, which will help appease the neighbors and take some embarrassment off Amy's back, and the presumably healthy mulch will be able to support a productive Soil Food Web that can take over the messed up soil underneath. Amy mentioned that people passing by commented that her yard used to look nice, so it sounds like the situation wasn't horrible to start out with and there weren't major drainage issues - she just got questionable advice and tried to do too much too fast. The damage just escalated and she needs to stop doing anything to the soil and let it heal. Claire |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Thu, Oct 4, 12 at 17:35
| Sometimes the best thing you can do to soil is nothing. I mean, regarding disturbing the soil. Usually you can get a truckload of hardwood mulch for a reasonable price - A 2" layer would probably help. Another alternative is to see if SOMEBODY is willing enough to dig a small ditch - something to handle the runoff instead of "swamping" the soil. Of course, another thing would be to just plant some black willows, green ash, gray birch, chokeberry, and cranberrybush viburnum, and have yourself a swamp. There's a willow swamp near our house - Actually is quite pretty, teeming with birds! |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr (My Page) on Fri, Oct 5, 12 at 12:24
| Both of those ideas sounds reasonable, especially since none of us can really see the conditions. |
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