What are your thoughts on a combination of leaves & grass clippings as much for the first year or two then wood chips? I was thinking of planting a lot of other stuff in each bed with the conifers (like ajuga's, daylilies, etc), then top dressing with leaves, grass clippings, pine needles, twigs, etc... anything my mulcher can pick up.

In theory the fast growing ground covers should be able to spread quick and send down roots into the soil breaking it up, while the grass/leaves/etc on top will also break down rather quick adding nutrients to the soil. Increasing earthworm activity. The problem I have right now is really no activity in the soil. When I apply the wood chips, there isn't any spreading plants, grass, or anything growing in that soil. Just my conifers that are planted 20' apart. I was thinking that adding fast growing spreading plants and compost would be a good way of jump starting the soil.

My yard is very large, I don't have any machines that can till this into the soil, but I've read good stuff on no-till gardening.

As far as ground covers go - I understand kimmsr's point about the mulch stopping groundcovers from growing, but it's not entirely true. First, nothing in this world ever stopped a daylily from getting bigger; second, many self-seeders will happily seed into wood chips and grow quite well there. It sounds to me that you don't want a groundcover per se - not vinca or the like - just something to break up the expanse of soil between one tree and the next; is that right? So you can put whatever you like in there and it will grow wider/deeper.

Another thought is, what kind of wood chips are you using? In my experience and observation, if they're not walked on often, the big chunky pine bark chips take forever to break down, while the shredded wood chips mat and keep the water away from the soil below. However, the chips you get from the tree companies are usually completely decomposed in a couple of years, and they seem to let more water and air through to the soil, which is only good.

Your yard sounds very cool - I wish I had that much room! If your trees are growing well, your soil isn't as inhospitable as you fear.

Pine BARK mulch lasts for a much longer amount of time due to the
high levels of lignin and suberin. We use some of that, too. I've never known a normal application of bark or wood chips to cause problems for ground covers or perennials.

That just has to be a type-o. If not just go out the a forest and look around at what is left of decaying trees.

I think the only way I'll be able to grow plants well in that area is to bury potted plants and use other things to fill the space - it's a good place for a bench and some garden decor.

I think over time your soil will improve using leaves and grass clippings with wood chips over but you will have to constantly replace as large trees do take a lot of nutrients and moisture out of the soil. The other trees on my land do fine without any amendments or added moisture (other than what Ma Nature provides) as they are deeply rooted but when one has trees in a garden I think they begin to develop some shallow roots and it's difficult to amend the soil enough. Not sure of the facts of that but that's my theory from what I've seen of my soil in that area.

A lot depends on your climate - mine is cold and dry which makes a difference.

Sap wood will almost always decompose faster then any other part of the tree. With most trees the heart wood can last many years longer than the rest of the tree. In the case of pine trees the bark will usually last longer than the sap wood. It does not make a bit of difference if it is chips or not. Heart wood will usually last longer than the sap wood or the bark depending on the varity of tree. Pine bark is about the only exception I know although there may be a few more.

I use hardwood chips only because the pieces are larger and they last longer. My goal with the chips is not to benefit the soil, but to last. They are expensive and I've already went through 30 yards. When all said and down I'll probably go through a total of 200+ yards.

lisanti07028 - Thanks! Here are a few photos, my yard is fairly new... I've been doing this for 1 1/2 years. This is just a small portion of what I'm doing... it'll take me at least 10+ years to do every part of my yard.

This is the entrance to my backyard. It's freshly mulched, with a lot of ground covers and other plants that are to small that you can't really see in the photos. This soil isn't to bad, which is why I mulched it.

This is the same bed, but a little to the right. Mostly planted are rare conifers, adjugas, hosta, daylilies, phlox, etc.

This bed was one of the first I created... it measures 75' long x 30 feet wide. I only have I think around 10 conifers in this bed, the soil is terrble clay. I'm not planting anything else in this bed until I make sure these 10 survive.

The rest of my yard is a mixture of bad clay that either stays to wet or to dry. However, it can vary a lot. You can dig a hole in one spot and it can be clay, 2 feet over almost sandy. After a normal rain you can walk across the yard no problem.... but if it rains hard for a day, you'll need to wait at least a full day before it can be walked on or 2-3 days before it can be mowed.

These are the only beds I have that are mulched... I have many other beds that aren't mulched, but they are outlined with roundup with all conifers planted. Before I mulch any of these beds I'll add lots of organic matter to the top. I just can't till the beds because I would need a tractor to do the job, but I couldn't get the tractor between the plants.

My mistake is that I mulched, then planted. Now if I need to plant in any bed that I have mulch in, I would have to rake the mulch back to let it dry out a few days before planting since clay stays so moist under the mulch. So I think if I add a lot of organic matter and plants to each bed then mulch, it'll help break the clay. My yard isn't bad when you dig in the grass, it's bad when you dig in the mulch. (Grass roots/weeds do a great job at breaking clay and increasing oxygen.

kimmsr - It depends on the type of groundcover I think. For instance I purchased Adjuga black scallop this spring that was maybe 4" round... planted in a mulched bed. Now it's over a foot round and is sending roots through the mulch into the soil. Other ground covers such as daylilies, hostas, etc just push the mulch out of the way as they get larger.

"Oh. OK. I could have sworn that you wanted to improve the soil."

Yea really. haha rhizo_1

It is too funny.

One last question about leaves. Many people say bag the leaves and put them on in the spring. I have 3.5 acres. I have about 4 fully grown trees and about 15 smaller ones (10' tall). It would be impossible to bag all of those especially when the smaller ones get large. Would you recomend me mulching the leaves with my mower bag and dumping them into the wooded section until spring or directing into the beds this fall?

Also, how long does it take for these shreaded leaves to fully break down? Will they be almost like dirt next spring?

I have read that leaves compost faster when you've got different kinds of leaves. Maple leaves by themselves mat and clump, but if you've got other leaves in there, you get fewer/no mats and they decompose more quickly. Oak leaves take forever to break down, but do shred quite nicely once they're dry. I have found that by spring, most of my composted leaves are about 1/2 digested, and when I use them for mulch, they are all gone by June.

Good info!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just thought about this since paper and wood chips come from the same place... but paper would do the job much faster than chips and less expensive. Free paper VS $30/yard of mulch.

I've been researching paper in compost and everyone is saying yes, but I can't find much about adding it to the top to serve as mulch until it breaks down. I could be wrong, but by the size of the paper shreads and how tangled it is when shreaded, I don't think it would blow away especially with grass on top. I'm also not sure what color it turns when hit with direct sunlight. Does it turn grey like hardwood chips?

I wasted many hundreds of dollars on 30 yards of mulch this past year... it didn't cover even 1/8 of my beds. I can't spend that much each year to mulch everything when I have other resources that are free. Plus moving 30 yards of mulch is back breaking labor.

I have used shredded paper and I am of two minds about it. When wet, it tends to turn into a big clump of goo, that in turn becomes concrete-like when it dries. A little bit, mixed with greener stuff, rots away; a larger amount just sits there. So yeah, it'll supress the weeds, but it may keep the rain from reaching the soil, while mixing a huge amount of shredded paper with a huge amount of grass clippings is a recipe for frustration and a sore back. I guess it depends on how deep a layer you plan to put down - if you do a thin layer of paper, layer of grass, thin layer of paper, layer of grass - like a lasagna bed - it should work ok. Thick layer of paper? Not so good. And it doesn't turn gray, unfortunately.

Around here, $30/yd of wood chips gets you the double-ground, hardwood, with no sticks wood chips; while that has its attractions, the free stuff, single ground, with sticks and branches, is nice too. Since gas went over $3/gal, we have to pay for delivery, but that's still better than $30/yd. I know what you mean about moving that much mulch - I'm thinking about getting a bigger wheelbarrow.

I'm brining home a bag of paper tonight just to play around with it. If it doesn't work out mixed with grass and leaves, I could use it at my base next year if I can get some free mulch. Do you just start calling local tree companies asking for mulch?

Tree companies may want to charge for them, so keep that in mind.

Re paper shreds, if you mix them up well with grass and leaves, I think they would stay in place. If I think something's going to blow away, I put grass clippings on top, or burlap, nets, etc. until it begins to compress a bit. Shredded leaves don't blow as easily as whole ones.

Lloyd

That's his "I suppose I can do it if you want but I'm busy and it's a pain to make a side trip for a homeowner when I'll have to pay a tipping fee anyway to get rid the amount you won't take off my hands." price.

Not that I'm defending the price, I have no idea since I haul my own. :-D

I've found that my kitchen waste disappears just fine and I no longer entertain any ideas about chopping or grinding that stuff up. Same for the lemons and oranges that drop to the ground and are no good. Avocado skins just take forever though.

I have gone over leaves with the mulching mower on the driveway where I have walls on either side. Then I'll let the mower bag them. Dirty job though. Dirt and dust everywhere. For the bin, I prefer leaves spread out over the lawn while I mow and it chops the leaves some and mixes them with the grass clippings.

to sense
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w/apologies
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Electric companies often spray throughout the year and trim once or twice per year. You'll be getting chemicals you don't want. This is why I don't get the free yard trimmings that people bag and leave for collection by the municipalities. Never know what people put on their green growth.

I told their supervisor that if they would rather drive 90 miles round trip to the county facility and then pay to dump them there, they could be my guest.

They decided it was more economical to just give them to me.