If you can get truck loads of it close by at a cheap price, go for it!

You need good crop residue to improve soil organic matter. Getting some loads of compost from yard waste and leaf mold. Just mulching with this material will really improve your soil.

I have 40,000 squar feet (about 200' x 200' yard) There 32 oz bottle of biotiller for $65 treats only 4,000 square feet. I would need 10 bottles of that = $650 for biotiller for 1 single treatment.

Then they have the other 2 products that I would also need that is around the same price and treats the same amount of soil so you add another $1,300. So $1,300 + $650 = $1,950 per treatement (times) twice a year = $3,900 per year. Is that stuff made out of gold or something?

I use natureslawn.com Aerify & Natures magic. These two products contain ammonium laureth sulfate, Kelp, humic acid, plus other stuff. I've only done a total of 3 treatments this year and have noticed somewhat faster draining soil. The grass is very green, normally it is light colored. However, on there site it states that there product isn't a miracle product and will take a couple years to improve your soil. I don't want to post a good or negative review yet about this company as I just started trying there product. I hope to wright a review in about a year. But there products are concentrated and $150 worth of products lasts me two treatments compared to what you posted.

Any reason in particular you "hate to agree with The Master" ?

Ha ha ha ha! Awesome!

Seriously, the stuff may work, but all they have done is take the results of composting, liquified it and shoved it in a bottle. You can do the same yourself over time (especially if you hang out in THIS forum for a while!)

Nothing new that isn't embodied in previous posts. I'm not spying on you and disliking your outfits or anything. :-]

I tried some Atomic Grow this year-- as rain is its worst enemy putting it on and gaging results were impossible due to heavy rain often early and results I did see were odd, so I am not saying it works or not but then it cost one tenth of the stuff above.

Oddly on Tomatoes I put in very late, the one item another poster said it hurt, it seemed to work OK, but by then I said wait till next year and quit testing.

I wish when I built the house I could have hauled good soil in to mix it, but I didn't know I had bad soil until after the fact. The stuff I mentioned above, I have not had long enough to test it out. So far I applied 1 coat in the spring, 2 coats so far this fall. I will need to give it another year along with 4-5 more applications before I give it a review. So far after it rains I can walk across the back yard without sinking in. Also, my grass filled in a lot of bare spots and is dark green. I apply this stuff in my 20 gallon tow behind sprayer.

September has been an exception... we got 6" of rain and the yard has been very difficult to walk across or plant. But again, it's not magic in a bottle.... they said it takes time to work along with spreading other organic matter around such as leaves. It's not expensive... $150 a year so I figured why not give it a shot lol. I'm only giving it a shot because someone I know on another forum did 2 years of applications and reported back each month and he noticed no standing water in his yard after two years of applying this stuff each month.

I did do a soil test with this back in May. I put a ball of clay in one jar and filled it up with 100% solution. In the second jar I put a ball of clay with 100% water. After a day the ball in the water I could lift out and break apart. The ball in the solution I could not pick up, it fell apart on contact with my fingers. So I'm hopefull it will do something to the soil even if it's very small =)

This is a key point-"along with spreading other organic matter around such as leaves"

That is what really helps soil!

But again, it's not magic in a bottle... they said, "it takes time to work"...

I said a long with spreading other organic matter around such as leaves. =) Which is what I plan to do this fall

On there website, it just states that some people notice an improvement in a couple months while others may take a year or more. It depends on how poor the soil is. My grass is normally bad, this is the very first year I have been able to get the nice cross lines in my grass because it's so thick. So that's my improvement so far... I'm hoping it'll also help the clay.

jolj that post said it all!!!

"Is it humus yet, who cares as long as it will support life & grow plant life. I do not really care about labels as long as the process works."

Yea really?? WHO cares!?!?!?!?!

Did early civilaizations have advanced agricultural techniques that we use today? Yes!

Did they really know what "humus" is, well, yes!!! But did they care? No!!!!!!!!!!

;)

Because that's what this stuff, in essence. Sure, it was probably brewed in a lab, and fortified in some manner, but when you strip away the fancy packaging, it's the same stuff. I think I can name about six brands/products off the top of my head; they are all different and they are all the same.

On a different sidebar...perhaps one day we will each be judged by others based on their perceptions. So you wouldn't spend money on something? How many people (not gardeners, because gardeners spend money on plants n sh...er, stuff, not cars), but how many people drive around with rims on their car worth more than the car? Makes no sense to me, you should flag them down and berate them for being ignorant, foolish, and insensitive to the needs of the destitute.

$150 for a year...or two months of cable...or a week of gas for the car...or one night's dinner at a fashionable restaurant...or the wine at a fancy one. Somehow, I think the gardeners get the best value for their money.

;-)

IMO, if a person wants to spend his/her own money on stuff that makes them feel good, I'm all for it (and others should just zip it).

Lloyd

I didn't just drop 11 large on a loader for my compost (you go, Lloyd!) but I am mildly envious of Lloyd's easy/immediate access (because he OWNS the darned thing) to the equipment. I'm sure as heck not going to look at his (I'm sure) hard earned acquisition as having stolen the food from someone else's mouth (or as having deprived them of their flat screen TVs and iPods). I guess that puts me squarely in the camp of those believing there is nothing wrong with wanting to retain a little fruit of your own labor for yourself instead of being forced to distribute it amongst those with PERCEIVED need. That whole Marx thing - "Jeder nach seinen Fhigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedrfnissen!" doesn't have the same ring of clarion call for all, I guess.

Humic acid and fulvic acid CAN indeed immediately enrich certain soils w/o the addition of other organic matter or a history of having added OM. I'm not saying what the OP is considering is wise or not wise. He can decide exactly how HE wants to spend HIS money, but if the product isn't a pig-in-a-poke, it has the potential to benefit the soil and by extension, his plantings.

Following, is something I wrote on the container gardening forum, so it will be slightly OT in areas because of it's 'container' bent, but there should (hopefully) be some info in it worth considering.

Humic acid (HA) is formed during the humification process (decaying/composting) as plant and animal matter break down. The main source of HA is lignin, which is the most common bio-compound on earth next to cellulose - it's what makes plants stiff. As the organic matter breaks down, it forms several acids called carboxylates and phenoxides.

While there are several acids formed during the breakdown of organic matter, While there are several acids formed during the breakdown of organic matter, the acids formed by a variety of decaying vegetable matter end up being pretty much the same group of acids in the same proportions. Further, it's not the acids formed during humification that vary with any significance, it's the compounds they form with free ions when mixed into (primarily) mineral soils. It's easy to envision why that is true when we consider that all plants are made up of the same building blocks (nutrients/elements) in almost exactly the same ratio. IOW, there is little difference, chemically speaking, between sequoias and snapdragons.

Also important to consider is that peat moss is made up of a combination of cellulose, lignins, and humic acids. This fact is probably what would allow any/all container media producers to lay claim to the fact that their product contains HA. As I mentioned upthread - advertisers often lay claim to things their research shows the general public might consider a huge plus, when it's an intrinsic part of all similar products. Shell Oil used to advertise that their gasoline contained lead to guard against spark knock, when in fact all gasoline used to contain lead. If I thought a little, I'm sure I could quickly come up with another dozen examples more current.

I'll leave an answer I posted to a thread on the container forum back in Nov '08. The question posed was, "Does humic acid serve any purpose for container plants?"

I drew a delineation between mineral soils and container media primarily because the immense volume of organic matter in almost all container media. This would even include the gritty mix, which has a 1/3 organic component - roughly 6-10 times what you would find in most natural and garden soils. Hopefully, we have built or are using container media with a suitable structure, but even if we were not, the type of structural improvements usually associated with the use of HA in mineral soils do not apply to container media. Where container media is concerned, if the structure is not there from the beginning, the only way you can add it is by adding enough soil particles of the size required to physically achieve your objective, You cannot change container media structure by adding HA or its associates.

The reply to the question (about plants in containers) I mentioned a little upthread:

"Humic acid (and its accompanying fulvic acid) are most often used as an amendment to improve the quality of clay soils, sandy soils, and/or other soils organically deficient. The primary value of adding humic acid to clay or other compacted soils comes from the resulting structural break-up (increase in friability) of these soils. Obviously, this should not be an issue in the soils you are using. In sandy soils, humic acid's value is in its addition of organic material to soils, which would also in the end improved water retention and root function, neither of which are anything you would be lacking in the soils you use.

In some soils, humic acid can also play another role in facilitating a plant's ability to assimilate nutrients. Humic acid can lower pH and help unlock otherwise bound nutrients in the soil that might not be unavailable under conditions of higher pH. Again, this should not be an issue for you, given the fertilizer regimen you use and a known favorable pH.

Finally, humic acid can stimulate soil micro-biology in some soils, increasing the numbers and activity levels of soil micro-populations, the primary function of which are to make available minerals and nutrients which could be stored within the humic acid complex and hopefully available on an 'as needed' basis. Again, not much of a benefit when you consider you're supplying a full compliment of nutrients in a readily available form on a regular and 'as needed' basis.

I suppose if I was to sum it up, I would say that a build-up or adequate measures of humic acid in garden soils is to be desired & most effectively accomplished by the regular addition of organic materials to the soil. How valuable wholesale applications of humic acid are to garden soils is probably highly variable by soil type, soil composition, and the intrinsic quality/value of the individual product at hand. It's value in containers would probably be extremely marginal at best or go completely unnoticed (as it did when I tried the product for my container plantings several years ago) but there's nothing to stop you from trying it."

Al

;-)

Lloyd

On a tangential thread, there is a good discussion of soil inoculants that fix nitrogen without legumes at the pe rm ies site (from M Troyka).

I'd never even considered buying even fertilizer for my gardens, but will try this out.