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| This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading a lot in the last few weeks.
I'm trying to start a new vegetable garden in the new year. Part of it is an old vegetable garden, really more of a weed patch, which has been in use, on and off, for about 40 years. I did a home soil test on it, and it has a good PH (6.5) but practically nothing in the way of other nutrients. The dirt in the old garden is medium-dark brown and has a decent texture. The rest of our dirt is basically sand, under a 3-inch layer of poor topsoil. I want to do as much as I can with free materials, but I'm finding the temptation to spend money is everywhere. I weeded the old garden and put it in a compost bin layered with chicken manure + wood shavings. I have access to unlimited free horse manure, with some straw and wood shavings in it (but not a huge amount), seaweed (limited only by what washes up and my ability to haul it in a small car with a baby and a preschooler tagging along), and oak leaves from around the property. I have a few bags of lime that I bought a year ago and have been sitting in the woodshed since. We have a dozen chickens that day-range and we use wood shavings in their coop. I've heard that straw is better, but it's quite expensive ($9/bale at the local store, no other stores we can get to without spending even more money). My plan is to get a big load of the horse manure and compost it over the winter, turning it a couple of times. I could layer it with leaves, but I'm not sure whether or not I need to. I'm thinking of gathering seaweed, rinsing the salt off it, and using it as a mulch on the future beds, or should I layer it with the manure, too? I read about using manure to create hot beds, and I like the idea, but I'm not sure about using uncomposted manure directly in the garden. Any tips or opinions about these materials? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by eaglesgarden 6b - se PA (My Page) on Fri, Nov 26, 10 at 12:43
| Do not use uncomposted manure directly in your garden, if you plan to grow things at the same time. It will burn your plants. If I were you, I would get the horse manure, leaves and seaweed and compost it IN PLACE over the rest of the fall and winter. By the time the spring comes, you should be in great shape to plant and the manure mixture will be perfectly composted and ready for planting! |
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| Composting in place sounds great, but will it get hot enough if it isn't in a big heap? |
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- Posted by eaglesgarden 6b - se PA (My Page) on Fri, Nov 26, 10 at 15:26
| First, based on the first post you made, I would suggest a large heap - 2 feet deep. This should certainly heat up at first and the pile will reduce rather drastically. When that happens (depending on where you are, and if the weather holds out) till it in. By the time the spring comes, there should be no concern, even if the compost isn't 100% "finished" compost. It will not burn the plants and will cold compost the rest of the way in place. |
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| The heat is in the fresh manure. Add the leaves to control any smell. You can also add fireplace ash that you have added water to and scraped off all the ash that floats. I also add egg shells that I have powdered. For an expensive additive a little epsom salt would be good and if you use the stuff from the drug store is not really that expensive. Don't add the lime since your pH is already where you want it. From there on I would base what I add to the veggie bed based on the veggie it is going to feed. Tomatoes actually like it alittle on the acidic side and to stop BER it's good to have more calcium than in other places so I'd add more of the egg shell powder to that mix. Your going to ask me how I powder egg shells aren't you? I have a coffee grinder and more time than I need. |
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- Posted by nctriadgardener (My Page) on Fri, Nov 26, 10 at 20:17
| I had never thought of the coffee grinder for egg shells. That is one neat idea. I read an article a while back about composting with fresh manure to "gell" the nutrients in it. It sounded like a great idea. The concept is realy is equal amounts of leaves and manure layered over and over again in a pile with some straw spread out to help it breath. I think after 6 weeks you begin working it over like a regular compost pile. ps For sure more leaves to control the smell. My egg shells are boiled and then crushed in my along with the coffee grinds. |
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| Oak leaves will compost in about a year, if they are first shredded with a lawnmower. They can be raked into a windrow, maybe two feet wide by a foot high, and then you just run the mower over them a few times until you are satisfied with the results. We use maple leaves on our garden, because this is what we have. Here in Wisconsin, we have different soil than you have. I never need to add lime, the pH is around 7.6. I would not add ashes to our garden soil, either, but your situation is different. |
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| The manure, added to a compost pile, is the primary Nitrogen source that feeds the bacteria that will digest the vegetative waste and convert everything into the end product, compost. If manure is used to build a compost pile and if the pile is built close to a 3 part vegetative waste to 1 part manure mixture there will be no odor unless you also add to much water to that mix. Soil is composed of the mineral portion, the sand, silt, and clay particles that make up the type of soil you have, organic matter, air, and water. Organic matter is what most soils need the most of so add organic matter to your soil as compost and mulches, using what ever you can find that is free. Are there deciduous trees growing around you that provide a very valuable and renewable source of vegetative waste every year? Those are one good source of organic matter that most people throw away. What do you do with the waste from food preparation, is that recycled in your garden, composted? A bit more expensive is planting green manure/cover crops and working them back into the soil. Spending $9.00 for a bale of straw, a waste product, is obscene in my opinion. An easy means of looking at your soil in depth are these simple sol tests, 1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. |
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| .. Thanks for the test info. Good stuff. .. |
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| >>>Spending $9.00 for a bale of straw, a waste product, is obscene in my opinion. <<< Seems to depend on where you live. I've read much lower prices posted here by members. They're $11.00 each here. Plus transportation cost. Not in my budget. |
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| I immediately lit upon the words "with a baby and a preschooler tagging along". My experience of gardening with small children under my feet tells me that you want a simple solution and that you should not bite off more than you can chew or you will get disillusioned and give up. You don't need a counsel of perfection - you need a counsel of doability. I would start where the old garden was because the soil is already worked. Decide on a small area for the first year. Spread whatever materials you have and leave over the winter. Fresh manure will not be fresh by next spring. Don't worry about whether it heats up or not. I have gardened and composted for more years than I care to think about and have never yet had a hot compost heap. In fact, over here cold composting is the norm and no one worries much about temperature. In the spring either fork it all over or if that is not necessary just stir up the soil a bit and get gardening. Don't worry about all the chaps with their compost thermometers and machinery and fancy recipes . And certainly don't waste precious time you could be sitting with a cup of tea and a newspaper grinding up eggshells. Flora - who actually paid a sitter so she could go and garden. |
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| Flora -- Thanks. So far, my preschooler likes "weeding," but she has a short little span of attention, being a kid. The thing I worry about with just spreading the manure is that the wood chips and straw won't decompose adequately over the winter. Winters here are generally pretty cold. We usually get down to about 0 Fahrenheit once, and have a week or two where the temperature never gets above freezing, although typical winter weather has daytime temps above freezing and nighttime temps in the teens (which is about -10 C). I know I should start small, but I find small projects kind of un-motivating. I want this garden to make a sizable contribution to our food supply. I still haven't gotten my trailer-load of manure. I don't know exactly how much it will be, but my guesstimate is that it's about 2 cubic yards. Hopefully I'll get the next batch! |
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| (I always agree with Flora, as is the case this time.) I just wanted to add that I manage my chicken houses (two small houses) like a large compost pile, called the "deep litter" method. In addition to woodshavings and hay for litter, I use leaves, throw in some pumpkins, apples, some seaweed, etc. etc. and clean the houses out annually, in the spring. It's greatly composted at that time, about a foot deep or more, and is a lovely sawdusty looking product.
If (when) the house starts to smell, toss in a topping of leaves or whatever. If you are able to not flip the bedding, it will heat up and keep your chickens slightly warmer through the winter. I flipped mine once in January, and it was pouring steam. It never recovered. I won't be flipping this year if I can help it. I've also started managing their yard like a compost pile, filling it with leaves and shavings and seaweed and weeds for them to rummage around it. My girls are mostly confined now. I lost two to predators this summer--a hawk got one and I don't know what took another, maybe a passing dog. I do think that wood shavings are problematic in a garden, but nothing that a shot of (organic, for me) nitrogen can't mostly combat. I haven't used blood meal for years, because my manure offsets, it appears, the shavings that haven't entirely composted. Your stuff will be ready by spring; it might be rough, but it will be usable. I make compost in the fall and I use it in the spring---whether it's ready or not. And about the seaweed? Gather all you can. The salt doesn't need to be washed off....I've read that, and in thirty three years of large, annual applications of seaweed, I've never gotten a soil test back mentioning a problem with salts. (Chickens will nibble on fresh seaweed, too, by the way.) If you're from Maine, you need a license to gather more than 50 lbs. of seaweed a day, but you can gather all the seaweed you want that has washed up on shore. |
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| aikigypsy - you clearly have more energy than I did when I had little kids. Mine were always wanting to do something else and grizzling or getting into the bit I was digging and risking having their fingers chopped off. You say 'I find small projects kind of un-motivating'. I would say 'not as unmotivating as a big project you can't do properly'. But however big you start I would still say keep it simple. You don't actually say how big the garden area is. Can you give us an idea? I don't mean to be discouraging, quite the opposite, I want you to do well. It's just that I have watched enthusiastic people starting gardening on our allotments like bulls at gates for nearly 20 years and very few of them keep going for more than a year or two unless they realise that they should do little and often and only take on what they can manage. Good luck and pace yourself. annpat - remember I'm visiting you one day. You invited me.... |
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| I know I should pace myself, but it's hard. Annpat -- I LOVE the idea of running the coop like a compost heap. It gets stinky already... we don't muck it out often enough. Having a reason to muck it out less often sounds wonderful. I will try tossing in bits of apples and things, and see what happens. I'm in Massachusetts. I think we can gather whatever is washed up here. The original garden was a sort of squished rectangle, about 20'x24' with one very shady corner and another corner cut off by the driveway. I'm moving the fenceline (how I'm going to fence it is another problem) so that it will now be made up of four 12' squares. After the paths go in, there will be about 100 square feet of growing space in each section, maybe a little more. I also have plans for a potager-type area with a permanent herb garden in the center, which I will cover with a hoop house in winter (I think). I've staked out that area, but at the rate I'm going I probably won't plant anything there until late next summer (for fall crops). That would be about another 230 square feet of bed, as currently planned. So it's big, but not humongous, and I think the 400 square feet should be just about manageable, as the little one will be only slightly mobile next summer. |
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| Flora, I don't think I invited you; I commanded you! Seriously! I would LOVE it if you came here. We're directly across from you, I'd pick you up in Boston to spare you the last leg of a flight. You should come in summer, if you swim or kayak, in the end of September if you'd like to see our famous foliage. You could come the next time I have the other woman composters---all people whose forum names I think might be familiar to you, and all very comfortable to be around. Or you can come alone. You could come with your husband if you wanted. I'm going to get the guest room ready!! |
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| aikigypsy - sounds like you have a great plan to improve your sandy soil. I encourage you to keep at it & in a few years you're going to be amazed at what you created. It takes time to get enough organic matter collected, but it's worth it! We've gardened right on top of pit run layering materials as you've listed. The chickens & ducks the kids have as 4-H projects don't produce enough manure to keep up with the organic matter needs of our rocky clay soil, so I add as much horse manure I can get from someone nearby who feeds alfalfa hay, oats, & beet pulp so not a lot of weed seeds. I think that makes a difference if you're going to have it as mulch. If you bury the manure the seeds don't get light or if you cultivate often you're on top of any weeds that sprout. I can attest that it works to gather what you can & let it rot over winter for spring planting. My other suggestion would be top dress with used coffee grounds all winter long as well as get some rabbit manure. We also have a few rabbits as pets & the pellets are a wonderful balance to the bulky bedding from the chicken coop & sometimes with the horse manure loads. Getting as many different types of organic matter in the mix gives you a better chance of having a balance of minerals in your soil. In my rainy climate I also sprinkle lime. You need to check if that's appropriate for your area. |
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| aikigypsy, Regarding the deep litter method of chicken keeping... Unfortunately I'm still a chicken keeper wanna be. For now I'm busy enough keeping track of my neighbors ( one to the right and one to the left) chickens that choose to make a break for it while they're out for the day. It's a win though.. they do a good job poking around for bugs here while I keep them penned in my back garden till their folks come home. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Deep Litter
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| WOW a subject I know backwards!!! Composting and making garden beds CHEAP! (did I mention my ancestors are scots/ Yorkshire people?) Horse manure: 2 piles (assuming you have room). I have 4 rasied beds for veg all made from FREE lumber from craigslist (they ain't pretty but they work great!) Just do NOT use plywood (formaldehyde)! A bad, bad chemical! I actually did go out today and spend just under $100 on a vacuumn/ mulcher (like a leaf blower but it sucks them in and mulches them up). I already have 7 neighbours who are more than happy to let me suck the leaves off their lawns! Added to the 15 bags I already have that should take care of my leaf need for a moth or two! Seaweed is best kept separate from other compost for 1 month with at least weekly wetting to remove as much salt as posible before addding to the pile. We built gardens this way when I was a kid back in Oz. My 2 aunts had houses 100 yards from the beach. We dug, in total, almost a mile of trenches and layered newspaper and seaweed into them and built them about 3' above ground level. Those beds took 2 years before anything was planted (it took that long for everything to rot). Sandiest soil I ever had to improve! To this day my aunts have to get a load of compost every year just to keep the beds reasonable. Just look around aikigypsy and you find all sorts of cheap ways to get your sandy soil improved, but remember with that type of soil it really is a continuous need to replenish it! Best of luck! |
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| "I already have 7 neighbours who are more than happy to let me suck the leaves off their lawns! Added to the 15 bags I already have that should take care of my leaf need for a moth or two!" Them sure sound like hungry moths you've got there! LOL |
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| Well my moths are pretty dang big........ My typing was always bad, and now that I cut off a couple of fingers on my left hand it hasn't gotten any better |
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| I'm sorry to hear of your injury. I sure don't intend to hurt feelings. I just love a good chuckle and your typo gave me one. You type just fine. I proof read everything I write three times and still miss typos. LOL |
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| kikifoo has a great description for how to manage horse manure. I'm going to post separately about what I've learned from a book recently. |
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