Keep in mind that if you do till your garden soil in the fall then that soil is now left exposed to the ravages of the winter winds and rains nad you can loose some of your "topsoil" through erosion. Fall tilling should be followed with planting a cover/green manure crop to help hold your soil in place.

I have noticed that if soils are highly laden with organic matter that they are like a sponge and tend not to erode....doubly so with flat beds.

There is never a good time to till any mulch into soil and certainly no good reason to till in mulch so more can be added since all you need do is put the new mulch on top of the old. All that fall tilling has ever done for me is allowed the many winter "weeds" to grow so I had to till in the spring again anyway. Leaving the mulch in place all winter helped suppress any "weed" growth.
Soil, whether with adequate levels of organic matter or not will be blown around by winds at any time of year if left exposed to those winds and that is erosion. Organic matter, being lighter then the mineral component of soil, will tend to be moved by winds sooner then the mineral portion of soil which is moved by winds. There were pictures of soil erosion on the news a few weeks back.

I find that my clay soil has improved enough after 20 years of adding compost that it is actually better not to till it now. Tilling clay breaks up the sponginess that has developed as a result of wormholes and other burrowing critters, and the tiny root channels left behind by garden plants. Ideally I would like to not till at all, and just cover the soil with compost topped with some type of mulch (such as grass/leaves mix) after planting in the spring. The worms and microbes incorporate that material so that by fall it's actually gone and I'm seeing the soil surface again. I can dig up a dry chunk of soil and see all kinds of holes and channels in it.

The only reason I can't do that all the time is that shallow tree roots are growing into my beds and I have to dig in order to chop them up now and then. Otherwise I probably wouldn't dig at all except for planting holes. YMMV but this works pretty well for me.

My MMV does vary even in different plots I have. For me there are good reasons to till a bit and not to till. For highly amended beds that are very loose, there isn't a traditional crumb structure to worry much about. I do like to speed up the decay of coarse residues and not have deep layers of cold and wet material on top for early planting sites.

Tilling kills tomato horn worm & other over wintering insects
in the soil.
I do it mostly to get raw leaves & coffee waste into the soil.
I use my beds all year & something is growing 10 months out of the year.
Even with two compost piles, it is easier to till the matter right into the soil.
I use partially decomposed organic matter & dry leave, with burlap bags as mulch.
So it is easy to turn it under at the end of the season.
A few beds lay untilled until February, so I plant oats or some other green crop on it.
Sometimes I mulch it, because of the deer eating the green oats or peas.

Depending on one's climate, maybe it would be better to till in mulch. On the other hand there are certainly circumstances where it is both unnecessary and unwise. I.E. I've been adding about 6" per year of mixed tree chips under the fruit trees each Winter, this has been going on for 8 years now and the mulch always seems to have "disappeared" by this time of year. Obviously, the mulch is being consumed by the living soil organisms, that is a good thing. The same phenomenon happens with all of the yard clippings I use in the veggie garden rows, by about mid Sept. the majority of them have "disappeared", anything that hasn't just gets strewn about for Winter.

I forgot to mention I've only been gardening this spot for 2 years. I have mowed 10 FULL truckloads of mixed leaves over my ~1000 Sq ft garden. It settled out to a good 2 to 3 inches of mulch. I am concerned that it will slow down the ground from thawing out in a typical central Maine spring. My neighbor just shakes his head when he drives by, lol. then again he put the 10-10-10 'right to it'.

If turned in would it effectively tie up nitrogen as in keep it in the rooting zone so when temps warm back up in the spring I haven't lost N do to leaching? Then mineralize? Or am I having a pipe dream?

The ground freezes solid here in MO as well and I have the same concerns. At some point in early spring I will start removing the huge mounds of leaves and compost and let the sun begin warming the soil. As soon as tomatoes etc. are planted I put mulch back on around them (leaves and grass clipping mix works well) to do its thing for summer.

toxcrusadr
I do not have that problem here.
Could you use black plastic with post holding it down to warm the compost/soil? Then story the BP & post til next Spring.

thanks for the replies and info...

In response to the "never a good time to till in mulch" comment, if you use a mechanical seeder, like I do, that requires a clean, even seed bed, mulch makes efficient planting impossible. The more accurate statement is that there is likely never an appropriate time to use the word "never" when it comes to gardening.

bi11me, what seeder do you have? How does it work for you?

I have an EZ seeder for flats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhSf6_uXo40), the 4 row pinpoint seeder (http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Plant-Seeds-Using-Four-Row-Pinpoint-Seeder-210872484 )(I would like the 6 row,) and an old earthway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkl2YvG2Rd4). Each has easily earned it's keep in my system.

I'd like a 6 row of for nothing but carrots. Love the straight lines and even spaced, neat looking beds :)
I'll save my 600 bucks for now :(

Regarding mulching in general, my experience is that it is best used to maintain and improve soil in the condition that exists when the mulch is applied. Once you have created a good seed bed, mulch can be used almost constantly. Until you have that seed bed, it is easier to create it without having to contend with a thick layer of anything on top. Black plastic works as a mulch that eliminates light and prevents an increase in moisture - this can be of some value if those are conditions that would help in creating or preserving certain conditions in your particular situation. Other practices include stones, wood chips, straw, leaves, cork - the list is endless. The point is, one should choose a mulch that best fits into the system utilized and crops that are being produced. Obviously, one would be unlikely to want to till in black plastic or marble chips, and there are arguments to be made against many other materials being incorporated, for a variety of reasons, but the practice must be tailored to your particular situation, there are no definitive statements.

Jon, regarding your particular situation, in Maine, with mower-shredded leaves as a mulch, here is what I would do (again, based on MY cultural preferences). Leave the mulch in place over the winter. In early spring, while the ground is still frozen, but after snowmelt, install a dethatching blade on an old lawnmower ($15 on Craigslist) and drive it over the growing beds, blowing the further shredded leaves onto the paths between beds, and exposing the soil. Cover the exposed soil with clear (or if necessary black) plastic to encourage warming. Use long metal pipes or boards to hold down the plastic, (easier to remove). Once you see seedlings begin to emerge, lightly cultivate the soil in the beds, add any amendments necessary, and start planting or transplanting. Re-cover the beds with low tunnels or agricultural fabric to maintain soil temps and reduce erosion - think of this an an "elevated mulch". Once ambient temperatures are such that your crops can survive without the benefit of added protection, and assuming that you don't want them for other purposes (pest protection, earlier yield, better moisture control, etc) remove the coverings, utilize them on other crops, and rake the mulch that was deposited in the pathways between beds back around the established crops. Do so when the soil conditions in those beds are optimal - and the mulch will act to preserve those conditions.

But that's just me.

The following thread in the Organic Gardening forum might provide some helpful hints as to what might be best for someone to do any given particular situation (whether to till or not to till). And there's some good info from "Teaming with Microbes" that might also be useful to you:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg1202520814763.html

Wow, it's cold and snowy in Vermont on a lazy day following Christams. I'm anxiously waiting for my three daughters, with three grandsons in tow, to come back home after spending their nights at an area Holiday Inn, and I started reading compost entries a couple of hours ago. What a lovely way to start the day. I've gardened for almost 50 years and still find so many interesting and useful things in these posts. For many years I rototilled my garden both spring and fall but for the last five years I haven't done so. There are good reasons to do it and there are good reasons not do it depending upon personal situations. I thought the links provided by Greenegarden and ZoysiaSod were especially useful. Many thanks.

I grow about one acre of vegetables in my various gardens.
Each fall I bag grass and leaves with my ride-on tractor and dump them on the garden where the crop has already been harvested. Rather than leave the material on the surface where it will dry up , I rototill it in as soon as possible , one or to passes to get the organic matter mixed in with the soil . This will better preserve the nutrients , and speed up the decomposition so the garden will be ready in the spring .
My objective is to turn my whole garden into one big compost pile .

I have not had an erosion problem in 40 years, in a raised bed.
I tilled a bed & seeded it with mustard greens, then a dog walked though my bed(I was not there,found out later).
That night the rain puddled in the large dog tracks & I had 10 seeds in each track. But I had a good stand in the rest of the bed. I waited till the plants were 3 inches tall, then thinned & mulched. I could not mulch first, because I sowed the seeds in patch form, not rows.

To make a statement like, "I have not had an erosion problem in 40 years, in a raised bed." belies science. I have seen soil particles blowing on the wind in many places throughout the USA during every season of the year. Anytime soil particles get blown by the wind, or moved by water, that is erosion.

They said they have not had an erosion PROBLEM. They never said there was NO erosion at all.

Kimmsr you are welcome to come to Lugoff, S.C. to see for your self.
I have not had a water erosion problem, because of mulch & ground covers like burlap. I also have the beds close, so the path will caught any soil that falls when tilling & can be reclaimed just before the ground is wet and/or covered. I have not had a air/wind problem because of irrigation & burlap. Wet soil will not blow away in high winds or everyday weather.
The problem is not hard to deal with if you get off the net & work with it. After working on this land for many years I know what is needed to stop the problem before it ever starts, it is simple.
The song said "Dust in the wind", not mud in the wind.

Kimmsr...Im sure if some one gave you a roto tiller as a gift youd commit suicide, the thought of someone using a brigg&stratton must make you blood preasure go up. Heres the deal Most of us arnt mother nature and cant or dont want to wait 10 years by mimicing nature when we can do it in one week. If someone wants soil erosion so be it the land is thiers they bought it and doesnt have to worship at your alter. All I know is that I till a lot amend a ton (fresh manure and leaves ) use lots of Peatmoss and suppliment with big bussiness Agrium fertilizer (that feeds earth) and have gorgeous bountiful gardens that dont look like some drunk threw up on my garden. You have some great knowledge but I really have to wonder do you drive to work? and how do you heat and light your home? and be sure you dont use a wood burning stove because your false CO2 god will be diappointed. PS earth has been cooling over the past 16 years.

Oil Robb...easy boy! Last time I checked, most of us live in FREE countries...where we are allowed to express our OPINIONS without recrimination. Kimmsr is only doing that...expressing his opinion.

I am only going to guess but besides rejecting Global Climate Change...you hate the Current Occupant. Also think that every household should have at least one assault rifle. And that access to health care should only be for those who can afford it.

Careful whilst you are out rototilling your garden. You should wear plenty of sunscreen for you don't want the back of your neck to get any redder than it already is.

lonmower...easy boy! Last time I checked, most of us live in FREE countries...where we are allowed to express our OPINIONS without recrimination. Oil Rob is only doing that...expressing his opinion.

I am only going to guess but besides bowing at Al Gore's Global Climate Change altar...you brown nose the Current Occupant. Also have zero knowledge that the word "assault rifle" is a political gimmick and that your health care should be paid for by anyone who works harder or earns more than you do .

Careful whilst you are out in your garden. You should wear plenty of sunscreen for you don't want to get skin cancer that you might have to pay for treating with your own money.

This post was edited by RpR_ on Mon, Jan 28, 13 at 18:17

Why not take it to Hot Topics kids.

Lloyd

I haven't been to Hot Topics in a long time. I found quickly that is was populated mostly by liberals who would gang up on other opinions....no thanks.

This post was edited by wayne_5 on Mon, Jan 28, 13 at 19:19

Well I went over to Hot Topics and use the same attitude and writing style addressing liberals, they are using addressing conservatives, and they DO NOT like it.

I think I will play around for day or two more and then let them have their narcissistic mutual admiration society.

These types of sharp responses to one another's comments seem to be much more common in the winter. I'm just guessing, but, it may be a lot of us miss the opportunities of getting our hands dirty working in the garden.

If only we could wouldn't divide
(Liberal vs Conservative)
If opinions weren't judged
(Right or Wrong)
-or-
(Right or Left)
If our minds weren't closed
(Like a steel trap)
"We might live as One"
Topics would not be "HOT"
(They would be "COOL")
Bias could not grow in the Garden!

This post was edited by lonmower on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 10:57

When it comes to gardening, I think we should be fairly polite to each other.

When it comes to making moral and spiritual decisions, I go with the Apostle Paul who wrote, "The spiritual man judges all things."

Most people probably have only, "Judge not" without a knowledge of the rest of the sentences [two more thoughts]....let alone the dozens of calls in the scripture for judgment. The context where Jesus warned against judging was fitting for His audience..it doesn't pop onto all situations.

This post was edited by wayne_5 on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 15:52

Wayne...

Fine...Paul wrote to "go ahead and judge others"

However... Jesus spoke as recorded in Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

As a Jesustarian... His words trump all others (for me)

Your words... "When it comes to gardening, I think we should be fairly polite to each other." So so true, my friend.

You jumped in after I responded to "Oil Robb's" post that started with this line.

Kimmsr..."I'm sure if someone gave you a rototiller as a gift you'd commit suicide,"

That sir... is not being "fairly kind"

This post was edited by lonmower on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 16:13

lonmower,

Your rendition of the verses reads a bit different than the one I was using. "Judge not that ye be not judged. For with the same judgment you judge, shall you be judged."

I don't take this to be an outright commandment, but rather a warning that you will receive back the same treatment that you give out

I actually see a positive in it as there is hope for good judgement if we give good judgment. I would question the suggestion that we never judge anything....all the time likely, but it behooves us to give right judgment.

As far as judging between one of Jesus's hand picked apostles and Jesus, they are both right always if put in the right context.

This post was edited by wayne_5 on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 17:09

lonmower,

If I understand your post right, you posted: "You jumped in after I responded to "Oil Robb's" post that started with this line.

Kimmsr..."I'm sure if someone gave you a rototiller as a gift you'd commit suicide,"

That sir... is not being "fairly kind"
__________________________________________________________

I agree that Rob's post was not kind. And your retort surely was not better was it?

Also your post: 'Fine...Paul wrote to "go ahead and judge others" is not quite what I said which was, "The spiritual man judges all things.

I hope we can end this nicely. It is so important when quoting Scriptures to get into the context of who was being addressed and why.

This post was edited by wayne_5 on Thu, Jan 31, 13 at 12:18

My point is..Im not going to be part of the collective socialist (BORG) If you google (like I do) soil ammending, you will find (as you have)hundreds of articles that mimic each other by authors usually young people that have zero back ground in gardening that are just cutting and pasting, the same talking points of how to ammend gardens and how to apply fertilizer promoting themselves all the while brain washing people who have a genuine interest in spending time in the back yard gardening. Ive read articles that go as far as scarying people into thinking that if they roto till the soil will be basically casterated for decades, or if you apply raw manure in the fall you are killing your family which is also a lie. The best one is that if you dont compost you are tieing up all this nitrogen,(just a cut and paste talking point never specifics) what a joke, Im retired at 48 (yes a capitalist). How about the one that says manure leaching into ground water, the microbes would have eaten everything before they ever have worked 10' down and had 100' of rainfallfall on it, but the cut and paste group will scare the hell out of you making you feel like youre killing your neighbors. In short you can use what you have with the knowledge you have, because if you listen to these Global warming self serving (make millions)clowns that dont take into consideration that the emerging markets China,India,Africa,South America,Russia will double the diesel burning autos on this planet by 2025 (University of Michigan).You will (or not) have a more fofilled time on this planet. One more small point, time to panic you over sensitive people, when your dog licks your hand where has that tongue been? my dog doesnt lick my garden but Ill bet a $1,000,000 that it has licked its A** where is the disease comming from? (youll over look that. My gand folks both lived to a ripe old age of over 80 (zero real doctors) used raw manure annually, mom is 69 and Dad is 74 and beleive it or not they apply use raw cow manure every fall and have forgotten more about soil managment than I will ever learn on the internet because of all the global warming self interest groups propogating thier lies. Now go rake all the forests(methane) and put a butt plug into every animal Turn off your furnace,lights and walk to work if you REALLY believe your stupidity (dont be a hypocrit, live it completely)

Be Kind? sometime the truth isnt kind. Ask a judge to be kind, the truth is what it is.

LOL..just food for thought...pun intended

This post was edited by Oil_Robb on Thu, Jan 31, 13 at 14:01

Canada eh? May I guess? Alberta?

Lloyd

The TRUTH is always kind, however sometimes it hurts!

I enjoy hearing other persons opinions.

I disagree with some of them, but I do not want everyone to agree with me that would be boring. Who knows I may be wrong once in my life & need a correction.

No really it could happen.

So I mean no harm to anyone on this or any other site, when I disagree with your post & I hope you will post again.

Where is Jeff's comment?

I was reading this old thread. Some are not around here anymore, but I see jolj is...greetings gardening friend.

I'm still gardening here in Indiana. I have amended most of the three gardens. with sand, local peat moss and add partially rotted manure, very finely chopped leaves, and chop up residue in situ. The crops grow very well. Yes, I have a tiller. It does some weeding, it prepares a row for seeding, it tills into the soil amendments and organic additions, and I tend to ridge up many of the rows for spring planting. It's not that I want ridged rows after planting, but that the tiller leaves them just right after the row is planted.

Hi Wayne_5, I always enjoyed your post.

I hope to retire from workplace in about 60 months & I am going to get a small 40-55 horse tractor to garden,mowing machine the pasture & orchard.

So I may not do raised beds for annual gardening, only for perennials plants.

I will amend any tilled soil & mulch all the perennial beds, I think they call it Adam & Eva gardening now.

But we called it perennial beds & put down green sawdust & animal manure on top of last year mulch, the mulched the beds for the winter.

Good hearing from you.

Looks like a train wreck of a thread that should have been left in the compost pile! LOL

Jeff posted, then his post was removed, I had forgot this thread was here.

I missed his comment, oh well. :-D Carry on and happy rotting.

I was told that if I rototill my mulch into the flowerbed, the roots of bushes, trees or other greenery will die. Is this true or not ?

Several points. Firstly, what is the rationale for tilling in mulch? It can be left on the surface. Any new mulch just goes on top of the old. Secondly, rototilling between established plants is bound to disturb their roots. They'll get damaged even if they aren't killed. Thirdly, unless the plants are miles apart it would be practically very awkward using a machine in a flower bed.

So, don't till in the mulch at all and do any necessary cultivations with a fork.

floral, good points for perennial beds, however I have coffee waste, leaves & grass waste by the truck loads off my 20 acres & the family farm. So I can afford to turn in all annual bed mulch, it better & easier the composting, which I do also. But after organic gardening for 40 something years, I look for easy short cut that are not outside of true organic gardening. Turning old mulch as Asian have done for thousands of years, works for me.

Hugdapolice specifically mentioned trees and bushes, so this is not an annual bed. S/he is asking in particular about using machinery amongst established permanent plantings. I also assume that the OP is talking about homogenous commercial mulch products rather than the varied raw ingredients of sheet mulching or trench composting.

If you are keen to find short cuts, jolj, you might be interested in the videos of Charles Dowding who maintains an organic, no till farm entirely by mulching. He never turns the mulch in. Charles Dowding's website