Pablo,
You would be surprised how intensive organic farms are. Farmers spend all day everyday out with their crops. Even a 20 acre veg farm will not usually have more than a couple acres of one crop at any given time. I would say my gardening bennifits a lot more from what I learn from farmers than the other way around. This is very different from conventional, and is why organics is so much fun.

Fert, don't hate to say it, you are right and I am wrong about the nitrite and nitrate. But, we deliver fertilizer in forms the soil cannot readily use.

So, don't be hesitant on my behalf, if you personally take offense at something I say or fear you will offend me then you take me to seriously.

Thanks Mag,

I seem to disagree with you a lot and want to point out or differences but at the same time I do not want to be a total jackass.

Fert- you definitely have more direct experience with those folks and their farms, but I'd still guess that if I spend a 1/2 hour a day in my garden- each plant gets more individual "quality time". I had heard about the movement for organic farmers to grow a larger variety each- pretty good stuff.

RE the nitrogen cycle- yup- same thing in a fish tank with the oxidation states.

OK, first, if you don't want to use as much fertilizer, don't. See what your results are. Cut what you normally apply in half. Satisfactory results? cut it in half again. Certain types of plants may need more than others. Certain types of soil may need less than others. Don't do something because morons on TV tell you to. And certainly not because someone on the internet said it's okay. Experiment. Try. Observe. Learn. Just don't ask me how, because all I would tell you is to do it and...experiment...try...observe... learn...repeat...repeat...

There is a difference between clinical trials and home growing and serious production, be it organic or otherwise. If you don't understand this, we are not going to have a conversation. It would be called a lecture.

Frequent fertilizations are NOT a myth promulgated by fertilizer companies. I will take exception with anyone who says this.

I will say that Miracle-Gro is not a fertilizer. It's a drug. I will also say that most people who own a home over fertilize. That's not saying that fertilizer or the companies that make fetilizer are bad. Most people take more vitamins than they need. But vitamins or the companies that make vitamins are not in and of themselves are not bad.

In the end, by the time I got to the end of this thread, I found so many soapboxes, diatribes, downright stupidity, and ego mania that I forgot the original question. (Which really had a simple answer.)

But I did learn who shot Kennedy, hid secret messages in da Vinci's paintings, and is responsible for UFOs.

Fert, I'm here to learn or teach, as it works out you can't do both at the same time.
For example, UC found that mixing anything other than the native soil in a planting hole causes annuals to not do as well. So, I will express that or extrapolate that to other situations recommending not amending planting holes. The UGa found the same with tree planting.

Yet, I think I'm open to different interruptions for different situations. New information, new paradigms.

BTW, I'm not trying to change the thread!

I never buy fertilizer, I have been gardening for 20+ years plus a little here and there before that. I am considered to have a green thumb by all of my friends. Silly me, didn't know I was supposed to be buying fertilizer. I got some kind of seaweed spray or fish emulsion or something free from Gardens Alive! once but I only remembered to use it once.

I make LOTS of compost, and lots of lasagna beds. Am working on one right now, about 25 X 4.5 feet and about 16 inches tall. Almost full already, cardboard, peaches and much other produce, horse manure, a touch of wood ashes (from stove) and wood shavings (from chainsawing), more fruit/vegie scraps, leaves, more manure, more produce and fruit/vegie scraps including a layer of pears, more leaves, another sprinkling of wood ash, then more manure. Will put some almost finished compost on the top. Prediction: everything will grow like gangbusters there, as they have in my other raised lasagna beds previously.

Jeannie7 is either silly or a plain liar. My plants die neither a slow nor quick death. My vegies and flowers go until frost strikes them down, and not always then even. As for "Putting incomplete compost around garden plants is one of the worst things you can do for your garden" please tell that to my lasagna gardens. Sometimes I make them ahead of time, sometimes I make them and plant very shortly thereafter. My vegies and flowers love them, unfinished compost and all.

If you want to spend money on fertilizer, fine, but don't make bad things up about composting just because you are too lazy to do it or something. Yes, maybe if I paid for soil tests and bought pricey fertilizer items I could increase my vegie production slightly. But I can only eat so much food, so why would I spend money like that when compost is so great and does so much and is free and good for the environment?

Marcia, who likes free things

hoorayfororganic, start with a good, reliable soil test. Contact your local office of the UMASS Cooperative Extension Service for direction. Most all soils have adequate amounts of most nutrients which may not be available to plants if the level of organic matter in the soil is low. Compost will supply nutrients, not readily available and therefor not seen in a soil test, as well as some of the soil bacteria that will make these nutrients available to your plants. Organic matter other than compost, such as tree leaves will supply large amounts of nutrients also, when the Soil Food Web becomes well established.
Some other simple soil tests that can help you build a better soil are outlined here;
1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

I like free too, but that does not mean someone can give me a car with no doors, hood, trunk lid, or motor either. I love free, but not at the expense of the health of my family and myself. I find no fault in being frugal, yet I fail to make sense of not investing in something that I know will provide a savings that is priceless. But, that is me and we all have to answer only to the one in the mirror.

fertilizersalesman said, "I work with a lot of certified organic farmers who make their living growing plants. To these people price is an object. Very few of them rely on fertilizer for all of their nutrients. Most of them apply manure in the fall. Many grow green manure crops for nitrogen, and some make compost. They all rotate. The problem is that these practices do not necessarily provide the amount of nutrients in the proper ratios needed, so they make up the difference with fertilizer".

Wait a minute. What kind of fertilizer are you referring too? I was not sure until your next post when you responded to maggiemae2006:

"Chemical fertilizers in the form of ammonia and nitrate are immediately available to plants. Urea is the only thing I can think of that isn't, but it converts so quickly you might as well say it is."

Am I correct in understanding you are saying you work with a lot of certified organic farmers that make up their shortage of fertilizer using a chemical that is used up immediately? Price is an object, at the expense of truth? In my neck of the woods such farmers as you describe are known as liars. To be identified as a liar is not good within the general population. Once caught in a severe enough lie such people are forced to pay a penalty. This may explain why these fake, dishonest "certified organic farmers" are doing business with you. As they have passed on to many generations, "water seeks its own level".

It may be acceptable for a gardener/farmer to rationalize to himself that having a stash of 10-10-10 hidden in his shed, that has been there for years, and only used occasionally makes one qualified to call themselves an organic gardener. They too may find logical and within reason to do a "weedin" to honest folk who actually practice what they preach. IMO, those who find rational in such deception are no better than the person who proudly states they only smoke crack twice a week, but they are not a crack head.

If you can find it within yourself fertilizersalesman, please limit your lies to those of us of a trusting nature, for we deserve better treatment if for no other reason than we are here to help each other. My final words to you fertilizerman are these. If you come up with some hair-brained way of explaining your posts please consider this question before you respond: How many lies does a person have to tell before they are deemed a liar? The answer is one. If you do not like this question I have another; however, trust me, you will like it even less.

This thread has come off the spool to develop many twists and turns. At some turns there were pictures of beautiful scenery with words of powerful teaching ability. I am sorry to admit some turns revealed a mismanaged garbage pit. What the next scene presents I sit here eagerly awaiting

Blutranes

I never buy fertilizer it would be a waste of money.I have a 7 foot deep by 6 wide ditch ive been filling with hay and goat manure and leaves for 3 years [cold compost] plus I have a quick small compost pile.I grow watermelons and tomatoes ect and get GREAT !!! results BOTTOM LINE WHO NEEDS FERTILIZER WITH COMPOST.

Interesting!

Blue,

To clarify, I do not sell chemical fertilizers. I only sell materials that are acceptable for certified organic production under the USDA National Organic Program rules. All of our fertilizer blends are listed with the Organic Materials Review Institute.

BUT, that does not mean I dont know anything about chemical fertilizers. When you study soils in college like I did you pretty much only learn about chemical fertilizers. Heck, I have even toured mines and fertilizer plants.

People tend to draw a line in the sand between conventional and organic. I think it is a mistake because there is a lot to learn from both camps both good and bad. In the end both sides are trying to reach the same goal, they are just taking different paths to get there.

SO, you have decided to come for the second question I see. Very well, I will serve it to you on a paper plate so I don't have to do the dishes later: How can you tell when a liar is lying? The liar has their mouth open and words are coming out.

Save your explanations fertilizerman, for I fail to find the trust to even consider any words you have to say. Happy Thanksgiving...

Blutranes

Ya know, I certainly am not a chemist or scientist of any kind. However, it occurs to me that with all of the intelligent, experienced, and knowledgable people that are contributing to this thread that perhaps the opinions and ideas could be offered without the name calling and the self righteous attitudes.

People come here to ask questions and hopefully gain knowledge. Not to be belittled and made to feel like they are not worthy to even post a question. Hopefully, Hoorayfororganic can take from this thread the good advice that has been offered and ignore the rudeness that one has been forced to wade through in order to get to the nuggets of wisdom.

I hope everyone here has a great Thanksgiving and can continue to offer the great advice with a spirit of "good will towards all" rather than the previous spirit of "you are beneath my time and effort".

Have a lovely day all.

remuda1,

It is obvious you have not bothered to read this entire thread, thus your interruption of what is going on has little or no value. Might I suggest you save your judgments for a later date, it may serve you well. If you take suggestions, I suggest you focus on the question at hand if you possess an answer for horrayfororganic, and you give it to her. Happy Thanksgiving to you as well...

Blutranes

Well said, remuda1. Kudos to hoorayfororganic, for staying around long enough to get an answer ;-)

Pam

"It is obvious you have not bothered to read this entire thread, thus your interruption of what is going on has little or no value."

To the contrary, I have read every word. That fact is what prompted my post.

"Might I suggest you save your judgments for a later date, it may serve you well."

My OBSERVATIONS stand. I do not feel that I have judged anyone here.

"If you take suggestions, I suggest you focus on the question at hand if you possess an answer for horrayfororganic, and you give it to her."

I take suggestions very well. Apparently though, that's not a trait we share. Your latest post makes this clear. As far as answering the questions that have been posed, I find that others have done that to this point. But perhaps if I had found the atmosphere a bit more welcoming, I would have felt comfortable volunteering some tidbit. Maybe there are others that feel the same way but are not inclined to offer advice for fear of receiving the same kind of reception I received from you.

Please re-read my post and notice that I did no finger pointing, but you were more than ready to blast me for simply trying to make this a more pleasant and beneficial thread to follow. I cordially anticipate your response, but I also cordially decline to respond to it. In closing, I read with interest your post describing your recent illness and included you in my prayers. I hope that you continue to improve and suffer no further complications. As I said in my previous post. Have a lovely day.

My garden is mostly compost, but I have found that HIGH CALCIUM LIME and SOFT ROCK PHOSPHATE are to low. I think these are the catalyst of healthy plants. I think most gardens are to low in them. They should be put on top of the soil in the fall. This will allow the plant to take them up in the spring. I think the PH level is not enough to to tell us the soil is good. So many check the PH and that is all. I am not talking about gardeners who has their garden tested. That is my gardens protocol.
jackman

remuda1,

I was the 5th person to respond to the original question posted by horrayfororganic. My post offered my own personal experience and what I feel may have been of some help to her. I continued to actively participate in the thread not getting involved with differences of opinion that resulted in the negative atmosphere that developed.

I had been misunderstood (unintentionally) by a person I had agreed with in his post. When I brought it to his attention we both showed maturity and resolved the misunderstanding with no further words. I then remained uninvolved from that point, until my name was specifically mentioned. I then responded only to offer clarification where my name was involved. During the course of that posting a person I continue to respect, offered information I took to heart. In both of his posts in his first sentence he made absolutely sure I knew he was talking to me by calling my name. I engaged in conversation to the end, and then went back to reading posts, desiring to continue to learn.

"But perhaps if I had found the atmosphere a bit more welcoming, I would have felt comfortable volunteering some tidbit. Maybe there are others that feel the same way but are not inclined to offer advice for fear of receiving the same kind of reception I received from you."

My posts speak for themselves; the atmosphere they convey did nothing to offend regardless to what was going on around said posts. Not one time have I left in doubt whom I was addressing including this one. The post that motivated you to comment is factual; could I have used more tact? Yes, but a person has a right to set boundaries and mine had been crossed. Could I have chosen to ignore your observations, and in doing so avoided this conversation? Again, yes, but I chose to respond. If my response to you was disrespectful it was not meant to be that way. As I have said many times, I am not perfect; I am human.

I read with interest your post describing your recent illness and included you in my prayers. I hope that you continue to improve and suffer no further complications."

I am grateful to be included in your prayer as I am in all other prayers conveyed openly as well as in silence. The intent express by myself in that post extends to all post I actively participate in. I truly desire that our first conversation had been under different circumstances; sadly I am forced to settle with what we have at hand. There is no need for you to respond, the response you have offered speaks well for what you have elected to not express. If you, by some chance decide that there may be a need to speak further I welcome such a chance. As I too said in my last post, Happy Thanksgiving to you once again

Blutranes

remuda1, if you know the story of Victor Frankel you will know that no one can make you feel anyway unless you let them.

For the past 30 sumthin years, I dump a a pickup load of whatever type of manure I can find for free and till it in.

I do it one time per year.

The 1 tbsp per gal of water every 10 days is a lot of hours spent. The 3x weekly watering with the 1 TBSP per gal method is a lot of wasted hours and water. I did that stuff for 20 something years.

Just a different 2¢

BTW Pablo and Swanz; UNH is having an IPM program in Peterborough on Jan 26 and 27th Includes soil management
for pest control. Organic materials for pest control and Pest ID

Sign up is free, Haven't found cost of reading material yet
(Probably Monday at earliest)

Contact your county agent

Blue,

I am not sure what you think I lied about or why. I don't really have time for this sort of nonsense, so explain yourself or I am just going to stop reading your posts.

fertilizersalesman,

How about we both just forget about it and go on doing what we enjoy doing? That way things can go back to normal (whatever that is) and no one is forced to read something we shouldn't be a part of.

As I said earlier, my respect for you has not changed, and I am sure we are both able to co-post together. So if it is ok with you lets' move past this. I trust this is acceptable to you...

Blutranes

Blutranes,
Lest I be the one you cite for being self-delusional and worthy of excoriation by my community for having the secret stash of 10-10-10 that I use covertly whilst proclaiming "organic" status :
I have never made the claim of being such.I am a gardener,not preacher nor wagon jumper.
Fertilizersalesman,
I find your posts clear and thought provoking,whether I agree or not.

Hi, I wanted to say to Jeanie that although I still think what she wrote was mostly hooey, I remembered later that she had mentioned her own compost piles. So saying that maybe she was too lazy to compost was a slip on my part that I attribute to it being almost 2 a.m. and me being up too late.

Blutranes, I have a question for you. I said I liked free things, and shortly afterwards you started a post with "I like free too, but that does not mean someone can give me a car with no doors, hood, trunk lid, or motor either. I love free, but not at the expense of the health of my family and myself. I find no fault in being frugal, yet I fail to make sense of not investing in something that I know will provide a savings that is priceless." Is there some way is which you are trying to say that gardening with lasagna beds and compost made with a plethora of ingredients is somehow damaging the health of my family and myself or something? I didn't follow that, although I vaguely thought you were replying to my remark. Please clarify. Maybe I am just up too late all the time!

Marcia

P.S. In the interests of complete honesty I also want to say that I remembered I bought a bag of bulb fertilizer in 1991 when I was planting 1000 bulbs.

led zep rules,

"Is there some way is which you are trying to say that gardening with lasagna beds and compost made with a plethora of ingredients is somehow damaging the health of my family and myself or something?"

It took me a minute to find that within your thread. Let me say all this absolutely. I have too many lasagna beds to make such a claim; if I make new beds they are lasagna beds. Nor could I possibly contest the importance of plethora of ingredients as being important in a compost pile or lasagna bed. As I remember from the past, you and I differed as it relates to weather fertilizer amendments are needed in a garden bed. I have read in many of your posts the success you enjoy in your harvest including this one. As well have I committed to post the satisfaction in the harvests I have gathered. As we both have admitted the happiness we find, how can I possibly conclude that your family suffers in health?

"Yes, maybe if I paid for soil tests and bought pricey fertilizer items I could increase my vegie production slightly. But I can only eat so much food, so why would I spend money like that when compost is so great and does so much and is free and good for the environment?"

I have always paid attention to your posts that I read, and always will. You have stated your fruit may not be the biggest, but they are good, and there may be room for better harvest, thus increased nutrition, but you choose not too. Your words admit you know what you are doing and have learned to make an informed decision. Knowing this how can I do anything but accept your decision?

We are alike more than we are different and we both know organic gardening is the best for our families

Blutranes

Blutranes, so I was understanding correctly that your comment was in response to mine. I take issue with this: "I love free, but not at the expense of the health of my family and myself." I guess we did argue about this before, and looks like we need to again. :-)

Having my tomato plant grow 5 less tomatoes or yours be 3 inches taller or something, I don't see how that affects the nutrition of the individual tomatoes. Actually each of my tomatoes grows differently depending on soil, sun, water, etc. I have friends who use Miracle Grow, and their two tomato plants may grow faster or get taller than my many plants, but I don't think that gives them any nutritional edge. Bigger harvest is NOT equal to better nutrition. There is no damage being done to the health of my family by my crops growing in fabulous organic soil just because I didn't buy part of it at the store.

I am not a market gardener that needs to have maximum crop output to support the family or whatever. If I need more tomatoes, I can plant more plants. I have 5 acres. So I still don't understand your statements about this priceless quality you get from buying organic fertilizer at the store, or how my family's health is damaged by me not buying whatever you buy or think I should buy. Free works just fine, my produce is as healthy as it comes, I can't imagine why you are so sure it's damaging my health somehow to eat my homegrown organic produce.

I do know that the pear tree growing next to a raised lasagna bed I made last year had giant pears the past two years, the biggest pears I have ever seen in my life. But those pears didn't taste especially good, the skin was kind of thick and not very edible. I think they had TOO MUCH nutrition available to them, and they went berserk. So anyway, bigger/more is not the same as BETTER FOR YOU TO EAT.

Marcia

Led zep rules,

"Having my tomato plant grow 5 less tomatoes or yours be 3 inches taller or something, I don't see how that affects the nutrition of the individual tomatoes."

I do not take this conversation as an argument, and to be frank, I always enjoy reading and sharing with you. I do understand that you do not see how compost alone could affect the nutrition of your fruit. I also understand that number of fruit per plant or size of plant does not determine the nutritional value of fruit. I also understand that my chances of helping you see the possibility of anyone increasing the nutritional value of their fruit can only occur if said person wants to hear about it. So regardless to what I have to offer it appears to hold little/no value to you. I am ok with that, just as I am ok with all you do. However, if it is possible, can we agree to disagree on this subject? That way we can move on to different subjects IMO.

Just so we are on the same page; I know you grow quality fruit based on all the things I have read you post for many years. Your commitment to organic gardening speaks for itself; you need not anything from me. You do not want to hear anything I have to say about what you post. If I know what may be wrong with your pears and it involves nutrition "KEEP IT!" Have I missed anything

Blutranes

This thread is cracking me up.

It is silly ain't it

Blutranes

Erm, sorry if I'm stepping on some toes but here's my compost reasoning:

I (try to) serve balanced meals to my family. We do not eat carrot tops or onion roots. Sometimes life happens and a whole head of broccoli isn't cookable.

So that stuff goes into the compost bin, with whatever other stuff I can find, twice a year for 6 months of composting so that it can be laid over the beds at fall and spring cleanup.

During the rest of the year, all that vegetable waste is pit composted at least a foot under whatever bed isn't growing something, or whatever bed is being built. We live on sand fill, so having the rich gorgeous soil that we do in those pit composted beds says that this method works. A whole pineapple, cut into 4 or 5 bits, decomposed in two months this way. A 30-lb monster watermelon took 5 weeks. Anyway, stuff grows happy in those beds that have been built through pit composting...and there's no smell, no rats, no mice, and no worries. Good for urban gardeners.

So if I eat a balanced diet, and add what's left of that diet into my soil, which gives up those nutrients in the form of plants and produce, which gets added back to the beds through pit composting with some other varied stuff, where is the worries about soil tests or nutrient contents?

Don't need to buy fertilizer, just need to find 2 minutes to grab a shovel and head out to the beds. Whole bunch of flowers like to grow in my pit-composting beds, on uncomposted stuff. Tee shirts, socks, cardboard boxes, table scraps happily entwine with Hosta roots. Just like the human race has been doing for thousands of years since we left hunting and gathering behind; just like the ecosystems around us have been doing since the first microherd went 'munch'. It's pretty easy to make it a close-to-closed-ecosystem from your kitchen to the garden to your kitchen. Hope that helps to answer the original question.

Tee shirts and socks? You bury tee shirts and socks? Now that one made me laugh out loud. That's someone who takes their composting seriously! And to think I just wasted them by donating them to the poor all these years.

Regina, this thread is cracking me up, too.

Karen

Hm, I'd worry about elastics in the socks and dyes. But then again, I seem to worry too much.

Oh...the all-cotton tee shirts and socks. The ones that are too far gone for even rags. And you gotta be careful with tees, because even if they're cotton, they can be sewn together with polyester.

I see nothing wrong with Tee shirts and socks.. I have used old blue jeans for browns. It took all summer but they broke down in a hot pile.

For some unknown reason, I feel compelled to wade right in here.

I have been gardening since I was 10 (33 years now).

Up until 20 years or so ago I used commercial, bagged fertilizers in both my veggie gardens as well on my ornamentals.

Then I discovered composting. After a year or so of transition, I walked away from commercially prepared fertilizers entirely. With the exception of a bit of urea which I used in a hay bale garden experiment with the neighbor's children a couple of seasons ago, nothing bagged or store bought has gone into my garden.

I have access to ample (unlimited) amounts of kitchen scraps, scraps from the local bakery/deli (including coffee and tea grounds, egg shells, potato peels, bread, etc.) We compost shredded junk mail, newspaper, cereal boxes, dryer lint, hair from our haircuts, and a wide variety of other things from our household.

In addition to those goodies, I have huge amounts of leaves from right here on this property. When I get start to get low, or am feeling particularly energetic I have been known to pick up other people's bagged leaves or pumpkins or hay bales or whatever may strike my fancy (much to my spouse's horror).

Less than five miles from here there is a huge cow pasture where I can gather all of the manure I want. In fact, over the last two days I have gathered almost 50 five gallon buckets full to top dress my garden beds. Each bed will get 3 inches or so of manure and will be topped off with 3 or so inches of hay.

As often as I can get my hands on them, I bury shrimp shells, crab shells, and fish parts directly in the garden (preferably right below where the tomatoes are to be planted later).

I currently have eight 4x4x4 compost bins which are in various stages of the process. Three of those bins are now complete and will probably be added to the garden in the spring.

My garden is approx 3500 square feet and I grow mostly vegetables with a few flowers etc there for accents.

So, back to the original question: "I am tired of buying fertilizer. What can I do?"

First, start a compost bin if you have room. Start more than one if possible. The ideal situation is a three bin system. You can find a ton of info on that subject both here on GW as well as on the Internet.

No room for a compost bin? Start a worm bin. They don't take up much space. They don't require much effort and they will benefit you greatly.

Compost tea works well as a replacement for liquid fertilizer. In addition to foliar feeding, compost tea will help your plants be more resistant to diseases. Manure tea is also an excellent liquid fertilizer if you want to go that route.

Don't want to start a compost bin or a worm bin? There were some other excellent suggestions here about lasagna gardening and simply burying your kitchen waste directly in the soil. Do some reading on trench composting too. If you row garden, you can bury your scraps and etc. in your pathways this season and then use those areas for planting next season.

There are lots of different things you can do. You just have to make up your mind which ones work for you.

I have read through this thread from the beginning and have to say that I was astounded at some of the bad advice that was being presented.

The best thing you can do with these posts is what I do with my compost. Run it through a sifter, collect the good stuff to use, and throw the rest back into the pile for further processing.

Lots and lots of ideas. You just have to be able to recognize the good ones and ignore the ones that aren't quite so valuable.

What about the zippers?

thanks hutch i think that was the answer i was looking for.

"What about the zippers?"

If you have scissors or a knife, you can cut them out before composting. If not, you can pull them out afterward (especially easy if you sift the compost.

My husband already calls me the wacko flower lady. When I start burying his jeans he'll have me committed

Karen

Yep, zippers and buttons are disposed of while I am cutting the material up. It's really a relaxing activity to take a bunch of old food boxes, and cloths and sit in front of the TV at night and cut your browns into tiny pieces. My trees are still a bit young for me to get good leaf harvest and my primary greens are grass clipppings, coffee grounds and fish waste.

The best part of soil building activities is that they are fun and my wife gets a tortured look on her face when I see the grocery store workers culling the produce section.

What about the cuffs?

This year for the first time I put a ripped hunk of cotton blue jean material into a compost pile. Mostly as a curiousity, to see how long it takes to rot. Sometimes you just can't even use stuff as rags, it is so worn out. Don't know how nutritious it is, but that was one of the first really startling things I learned on gardenweb, that you can compost cotton clothing! Just something most people wouldn't think of on their own. Read a great paraphrased line in a book today, "Some are born weird, some achieve it, others have weirdness thrust upon them." Describes us here pretty well, doesn't it? (Quote from Dick Francis.)

Speaking of weird: Blutranes, I wish you wouldn't, every year or so, tell me that I am compromising the health of my family by not buying organic soil amendments and hence having faulty nutrition. Then when I ask about it, you say, oh, you are organic, I don't want to argue with you. If you are going to make such BIZARRE claims about the health of my family related to eating our organic produce, then I expect some facts in return. I am a smart person, and I used to teach chemistry, physics, math, and computer science. I have both a B.S. and an M.S. from a college of engineering, so you are free to use big words in your explanation. I assure you that I will understand any actual facts and data.

Marcia

even fish emulsion has a lot of heavy metals in it, i thought

i took out my dumbly-used pressure treated wood after i realized what could happen. unfortunatly they were in there for 2 years. doh.

If we were to differentiate between the term "soil amendment" and fertilizer, it might help clear the manure aroma from the air in this thread :-)

Organic material such as compost is more often considered a soil amendment than a fertilizer. Organic matter in the soil helps plants in many ways. Organic matter in the soil improves aeration, drainage, and plant's ability to use the nutrients and minerals that already exist in the soil. Compost can be considered a "fertilizer" but in reality its not really added for its NPK value.

Other materials that are used specifically for the purpose of adding nitrogen, phosophorus and potassium to the soil are considered fertilizers. Manures, Used Coffee Grounds, alfalfa pellets are commonly used organic fertilizers that can be purchased or acquired for free, depending upon the material and where you live...

A newbie to organic fertilizers and compost would benefit greatly from reading the FAQ not only on this forum but on the organic gardening forum as well.

Based upon many people's experience, adding organic matter to the soil has so many benefits that sometimes we intermingle the terms soil amendment and fertilizer because both are so good for our plants.

Batteries are not recommended for composting, what happens if there is a battery in your jeans pocket when you put it in the compost pile. This is some of the things that worry me?

Another thing I've wondered about, if someone cane to this site and ask silly questions and gave silly advice, would we get wound up and deal with such a person endlessly while it may all be a game with them?

I apoligize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.

Ok, I have been reading these posts every once and awhile and I'm a health nut who gardens because I want something preferable to the chemically grown, trucked in, genetically altered crap at the store. Nutrition is very important to me and I use Steve Solomons fertilizer mix. Blutranes is not making this up about unbalanced soils leading to unbalanced vegetables. I wish Marcia would read "Gardening When It Counts" or Super Nutrition Gardening is another one, although I don't like it as well. The thing is, most soils are not perfect, where I live phosphorus deficiency is widespread, so if I make my compost with all local materials as I usually do, it will swing my phosphorus deficiency and whatever other problems more and more out of whack as time goes on and I keep composting. I do compost but view it as a source of OM. We can't just care about NPK either if we care about nutrition, trace minerals taken up by plants are passed on to us and our animals that if they eat any. Marcia stated in another thread that we are damaging the planet by using this fertilizer mix and nothing can convince me that that is true.

For vegetables that don't need too much P?

What was the question?

im wondering if seaweed layed ontop of the rootbase is enough for fertilizer for vegetables that don't need much Phosphorus