Cool, I'll have to buy some of that mycorrhizae stuff and till it into
my garden.

LOL swanz

Rhodies don't seem to care about myc's either. Most plants benefit from them, but legumes take it to another level. You can get innoculants for legumes of various sort by the pound, and many will contain several types of spores. Seed innoculation works best. In a health, untilled, high OM soil (like the forest floor)- you'll have lots of myc's growing naturally, and spores will blow in and colonize if you provide good conditions.

Annuals benefit from them as well. Read Mycellium Running, or see Paul Stamet's site:

"I NEVER use absolutes."

snork!

The trailing arbutus (Epigaea repens, AKA Mayflower) seems to be strongly dependent on the presence of specific mycorrhizae.

I'm happy to say that my new plants are thriving in their preferred habitat.

Claire (who doesn't like absolutes either)

Swanz, since tilling seems to kill the Mycorrhiza fungi and since Mycorrhiza are fairly plant specific simply buying some is not going to help. Get your soil into good condition and the Mycorrhiza fungi will develop.

Many commercial plant growers have long been aware of the benefits of mycorrhizae and have been innoculating their plants for years. So if you are purchasing plants from larger retail nurseries that bring in large volumes, you are most likely already bringing in a variety of micorrhizae into your soils. And too, many distributors of organic fertilizers and soil amendments innoculate their products as well.

To folks in the industry, this is nothing new.

where is HOORAY FOR ORGANIC when we need her?????

This spring I was using a lot of old hardwood mulch as browns for my kitchen scraps. I replenished one of my raised beds with the compost in July and soon after, the whole bed had a spongy crust integrated into the top quarter inch of soil with an occasional cluster of tiny cup-shaped mushrooms sprouting up.

I don't know if that was mycorrhizae, but it seemed generally pretty healthful and I was glad to see it in my soil.

One of the skills I would like to develop is making compost & mulch that is plant specific. Alas, I am at the beginning of that journey. I do find leaves and coffee will grow lots of fungi, but I dont turn it and dont let it get hot; after a month it is used for lilac mulch over compost (with a more bacterial dominance, I suspect). Of course I dont know what kind of fungi I am producing. I did read "teaming with microbes", but I think I need to read it 3 more times!

Yo,Swanz bro,I can dig it!

newtxan, that sounds like birds' nest fungus (try Google image search)

Nearly all plants have associated mycorrhiza, scientists just haven't identified/isolated all of them yet so as to be able to reproduce them in marketable quantities. This is the case with Ericaceous plants like blueberries and rhododendrons. At least that's my impression based on past reading. Maybe the answer lies in (what appears on skimming to be) this excellent Wikipedia article

newtxan, not sure of the fungi specie but that does indicate fungal growth which is normally a good thing.

The soil organisms are turning the log, wood mulch into soil. Whatever minerals, etc that was in the wood product are being recycled.

newtxan, not sure of the fungi specie but that does indicate fungal growth which is normally a good thing.

The soil organisms are turning the log, wood mulch into soil. Whatever minerals, etc that was in the wood product are being recycled back to the soil.

gardengal, I quote you
"I'm not sure what the point of this thread is."

How do you respond if you don't know the point?

"Are you trying to find out who is for and who is against mycorrhizae?"

"I'm for it."

Then, you answer an assumed question that I didn't ask.

"And I NEVER use absolutes."

May I assume you do deal in almost?

"Nearly all plants have associated mycorrhiza, scientists just haven't identified/isolated all of them yet so as to be able to reproduce them in marketable quantities."

Many have, however, been isolated at least in so far as their preference for ectomycorrhiza or endomycorrhiza. As Gardengal pointed out, the industry has used them for quite some time.

Soil Moist is an example of commercially available plant specific mycorrhiza. Here's what they say about the different plant needs:

"Ecto only products are effective on alder, arbovitae, arctostaphylos, aspen, basswood, beech, birch, chestnut, chinquapin, eucalyptus, fir, hazelnut, hemlock, hickory, larch , linden, madrone, oak, pecan, pine, poplar and spruce. Endo fungi is effective on all plants and trees except laurels, rhododendrons, azaleas and ecto specific plants listed previously."

Has anyone stated the expected life span of Mycorrhizal fungi?

Blutranes

To satisfy nitrogen needs in organic gardening, crops require substantial amounts of manure. Yet manure supplies a glut of phosphorous, which shuts down glomalin production. This feeds into Lady Balfour's work with rotating land use, alternating cattle (manure/phosphorous) then other uses allowing the mycorrhizae to get back to work building humus.

I hadn't known, or had forgotten, that mycorrhizae harbor and sustain soil microbes. It makes sense given their habits of transporting phosphorous, nitrogen and carbon around underground - the "dirt internet" so to speak. When mycorrhizae thrive, so does eveything else.

Blutranes asked:

Has anyone stated the expected life span of Mycorrhizal fungi?

Good question. Related to life span, do Mycorrhizal fungi sporulate when conditions get nasty?

Claire

Paul,

You're absolutely spot-on with the bird's nest fungus guess. This stuff had the tiny cups filled with what I thought might be spores of some sort.

So the cups are "splash cups" and when a rain drop hits them, they eject the tiny buds, which shoot out like a grappling hook, wrap around a nearby branch and spread spores around the area.

Fascinating. Thanks!

mags, I don't have a clue what's up with you........I think if you reread the thread you will see I never said any of the statements you attributed to me. Is there a reason why you feel it necessary to single me (or anyone else, for that matter) out?

The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them, even if you feel personally insulted. They'll stop if they don't get responses.

Mycorrhizae (and other fungi) is an interesting topic and it's worth continuing the thread on a positive note.

Claire

Claire, I don't believe for a moment that maggiemae is a troll - the subject matter of her initial post on this thread should attest to that. That she has a lot to offer to this forum is apparent. I do believe, however, that she sometimes doesn't read things clearly and completely before jumping to conclusions, sometimes has an awkward and convoluted way (at least to me) of expressing herself and for some strange reason, feels the need to take all comments personally. If we could get beyond all that, we could indeed have an interesting discussion.

maggie, I mean this in only the most constructive way and hope you take it with the intent in which it was given.

Gardengal, you are absolutely right, I was responding to bpgreen and addressed you.

Sorry.

I take personal what seems personal to me.

BIG BUT, you did NOT make the post I responded to.

gardengal, her problem is not with you...it's with me.

Now about mycorrhizae. I'm impressed...we're spelling it right (I nevr can).

I'm not going to downplay the importance of it in the least...indeed, I use it not by the pail or the case, but by the drum. However, I have more questions than answers, which attests to how little understood these organisms are.

If you believe the hype, about all it can't do is cure cancer, wipe out AIDS, rebuild the Colussus at Rhodes (although that may be possible). Yet something so extraordinarily strong, vigorous, adaptable, and powerful is supposed to be so fragile as to defy belief.

While myco products have been utilized for a number of years in commercial nurseries, they have yet to make the leap into consumer use. From my understanding of the products available, it's mostly because of marketing. Part of the issue is lack of understanding, a market already flooded with plant starter products, and a slightly elevated price point in comparison, but mostly because of marketing and packaging. While I use a 55 gal drum at a time, how many people would have the need for more than a few ounces a year? Or perhaps a pound or two if you are establishing a new landscape from barren ground?

What kind do I need? From the point of practicality, this question has been answered. Most of what is available is a blend, a cocktail of endo and ecto types. What is symbiotic with your plants finds a host and is utilized, what is not...I'm not sure what. Perhaps it finds, colonizes, and benefits other hosts, perhaps it simply fails to find a host.

What is the longevity of these organisms once introduced? Are they capable of sustaining themselves for any duration? What's the difference between usage in ornamental horticulture (landscape) and in a vegetable garden? agriculture? turf?

A question I have yet to fully resolve to any significant degree: If they are indeed found in most soils naturally, but have been purged due to failure to maintian healthy environments over the long term (and other uses, not going into detail here), would not a massive re-introduction of these "super-fungi" not be akin to the lady bug releases that so plague certain areas of the US? Oops, sorry, Asian lady beetles (I use one name, you know what I am talking about...they are different genera and species of the same family and order, utilized in biological programs for similiar reasons, just different target organisms).

My point is, what is done with perfectly valid reasons and perfectly logical conclusions may have consequences unimagined until done. Personally, I doubt such a potential quagmire exists...but I don't know.

I do have a gargantuan issue with a statement in the initial post, but it's a philosphical issue, not a meritorious one: If I happen to be an urban/suburban dweller, am I to locate some woods and mine the soil for my own benefit? Not knowing what would be necessary for my situation, not knowing what other things may be present in the soil I so acquire? As alluded to in a different thread, not all things to be found in the soil could be considered good. Would it not be better to value the forest as it is, and locate a source to purchase a cocktail mix?

I take mycorrhizae personally too. Mycorrhizae are our friends.
A google search of "ericaceous mycorrhizae" turned up 48 hits - interesting reading.

newtxan, that is a delightful site. All I knew about bird's nest fungi was what they looked like, and that we find them more and more in our garden and driveway. So I'm learning about those too.

heptacodium, are you a commerical grower?

Ahem, Maggiemae, there are a few people here who are making fun. Your warning is what piques peoples interest. But how do you figure this is a controversial subject anyway? Yeesh, seems like you could state your info in a little more of an informative kind of tone and everyone would be happy to know what you know. Why the threat? I think it's still legal in this country to think whatever you want to. Cheryl

Cheryl, I tend to draw conclusions from what I learn, when I state my comclusions "the right way to do it" police jump me about absolutes. So, I just gave fair warning if someone wanted to spare themselves reading all about mycorrhizae only to get to the end and feel the need to jump me about absolutes and miss the discussion about the subject.

And, I don't think it should be a controversial subject.

I've always wondered what those nest shaped things were. Interesting.

Well, if you want to go further into interesting things found in mulch, etc., there's always the slime molds. Like the dog vomit slime mold ...

Granted, it's not as cute as the birds nest fungus (not even close).

Claire

Yep, I've seen that once spring on the mulch of one of my trees.

The dog vomit?

Yep, yellow dog vomit-like fungi.

Yummy...

Here in the UK it is increasingly standard practice to add a preparation of mycorrhizae in clay sold under the brand name "Rootgrow" when planting shrubs to help them get started. In particular, the addition of mycorrhizae to the roots of roses makes it possible to plant them in soil where roses previously have grown - which was hitherto rendered impossible by a mysterious disease called "rose replant sickness" (which I suspect may not be a problem in the US). You add the mycorrhizae once, directly in contact with the bottom of the roots. For bare-rooted plants (which is how roses tend to arrive over here) there is now a gel that can be mixed up into a kind of wallpaper paste. I have found the mycorrhizal powder to be enormously beneficial to young plants, not least in helping them to withstand the kind of drought we had last summer. I have not yet tried the gel, but will be planting my roses over the next few weeks with it. You must surely have equivalent products in the US.

I'd never heard of rose replant sickness so I went a-Googling and found this link. It's probably related to a build-up of nematodes and pathogenic fungi, and affects "particularly members of the family Rosaceae (roses, apples, cherries, pears and plums)."

Mycorrhizae gone bad?

I hope it's not a problem that's in our future too.

Claire

I'm jumping out on a theoretical limb but plants are said to select for the organisms they want and organisms are said to select for the plants they want.

Unless one could show a build up of some mineral or combination of minerals under apples, roses, etc then it must be a buildup of organisms.

As I read the link, the answer is not understood.

Now, my jump; does the buildup of associated organisms needed by a mature plant overcome a small transplant?

Or, is there an unknown juglone effect?

UC, found what they believed was a juglone effect with grass and small tree transplants. They found that mulched trees grew much better, like in the same period mulched trees grew a 3" caliper vs. grass grew less than an inch.

I think the proposition is that there is a buildup of organisms that are not required by the mature plant and are indeed not beneficial. This is a different situation from any selection of mutual benefit that might have occurred.

The root system of the mature plant developed before the buildup and is capable of fighting off the pathogens. A small transplant does not have the root system and/or the ability to withstand the pathogenic organisms.

Claire

I can get to the same place on organisms.

The juglone effect is the effect of complex compounds and I'm surely guessing.

It is all so complex and interesting, enough to keep a person amused.

Am I to conclude from the responses to my post that rose replant sickness is not a problem in the US?
And, if not, why not, when it is such a significant problem in Europe generally?

I can't have rose replant sickness since I've never planted a rose!

When I did the search, I found a few references that said it wasn't an issue in the US. That's why I said"I hope it's not a problem that's in our future too."

I was thinking of newly imported problems like the lily leaf beetle that is now devastating lilies in New England. Or the Asian Long-Horned Beetle.

Maybe someone here has an insight into our lack of rose replant sickness. Or maybe we do have it, but haven't yet noticed. It's particularly worrisome since it's not just roses, but members of the whole Rosaceae family - a vast group.

Claire

Andrew, it is more commonly known as "specific replant disease" here (SRD, aka "sick soil syndrome") and yes, it is as much a problem here as in the UK. In fact, it may be a bit more so, as it affects orchardists as well (since a good many fruit trees are members of the Rosaceae) and apples in particular are a huge cash crop in this country. To my knowledge, innoculating with micorrhizae is not a widespread practice yet but rotating with wheat(!) has proven to improve performance. Apparently, SRD allows build-up of several pathogenic fungi and the wheat effectively counteracts the problem. The wheat may very well possess the necessary micorrhizal symbiosis.

Ain't nature grand in the way she takes care of her own?

Thanks, gardengal148! It seemed unlikely that it wasn't here in some form.

Claire

I searched the Roses forum and the subject of rose replant disease was briefly discussed there in July. The opinion was offered by one rose expert from Texas that the problem does not exist in the US and that it is a European disease. Maybe it is more of a problem for fruit trees in the US, and more of a problem for roses in Europe? I remain intrigued as to why mycorrhizae are not used systematically in the US as they are in the UK? Would it not be as effective, for whatever reason?

A few thoughts

I have been thru this 'thread' a few times with 'producr sellers'

the was an article at UCol. about doing and experiment using mic and wheat. Mic apperared to help BUT the cost factor made it too coslty for commercial apppications, THe cost of adding a little Phosphour was a lot less $$

Mic appears to work if the soil phosphour is below 50 PPM and will kill the mic if the soil P is above 100PPM.

Mic appears to work for woody -plants, Trees and shrubs.

One area is a beech tree, If you rake the fallen leaves away from the beech tree odds are you will kill the tree in about 5 years. The leaves are needed to make the mic grow.

The last time I looked, the US Forrest service had ID'd about 38 different species of mic, All species were found with woody plants.

One company in the PNW claimed his brand was great for tomatoes. I appears for his brand of mic to work, you had to grow in tub, using his brand of peat moss, potting soil and fertilizer, The start-up cost was like $52.50 for 6 tomato plants.

WSDA listing for this product had a high level of a heavy metal PPM and it was delisted from Washington State

I have 4 friends that tried it, said it was the biggest waste of money in their garden history.

I would like to see a comparison of some tomatoes or peppers grown in the same potting soil, some using myc and some using manure T.

Byron

Everytime I till, the wild carrot roots get cut up into a million pieces and I get a million new wild carrots regenerating from the chunks.
If you till up the fungus strands, will you get a million new regenerated fungus strands? or is it so delicate it will give up the ghost permanently and never grow there again?
Maybe tilling kills all the spores permanently too?

Wow! I never would have thought mycorrhizae would cause so much debate! I just finished going through this thread and I think it's really cool how much people are learning about mycorrhizae!

The thing about mycorrhiza is that even though this organism has been around for hundreds of millions of years, evolving with the first land plants, we have only just recently even discovered it exists! I'm talking 1970's, by a guy who was studying truffles... And we're only just learning about the many ways it interacts with plants. The relationships can vary from fungi exploitative (as in certain types of orchids which don't even photosynthesize anymore because they take all the nutrients from ectomycorrhizal associations) to plant exploitative in which the fungi are parasitic on the plants. But in between these 2 extremes, plants and fungi live together in harmony.

Because of all the benefits mentioned in the original posting by maggimae, there are perhaps dozens of companies that are attempting to market these fungi commercially. The problem with endomycorrhizae is it is expensive to produce in the form of inoculum since it can only be grown to maturity with a host plant. Companies that have been able to produce this inoculum will not give away the secret as to how it's done economically.

Another problem with the commercial selling of mycorrhiza is many people don't understand how to use it properly. The big thing is, as was already mentioned, it won't work if the soil P level is high. The major benefit of mycorrhizae is they help plants absorb phosphorus in low-P soils. Mycorrhizal plants will actually send out signals to call for the fungi when they need more phosphorus. Another issue about using inoculum is if you are growing plants in a garden that already has a high level of indigenous species (organic gardens will likely have lots of mycorrhizae already) then the introduced inoculum will likely not have much of an effect. I have inoculated the plants in my garden with Myke's because I used topsoil bought from the hardware store mixed with potting soil and worm castings, so there was likely no mycorrhizae in there.

There has been a lot of studies on the effects of tillage and mycorrhizae, in response to the previous posting. Tillage does break up the hyphal network and reduce colonization in the following year, but it does not destroy the spores and there will still be propagules that will remain as inoculum.

Anyway that's all I have for now, I don't even know if anyone will read this posting but I like writing about mycorrhizae anyway.

Cathy

Thanks, that was all new to me. Most interesting.

From what Ive read the best way to use mycorrhizae is to put it in the plant hole or even sprinkle it on the roots directly .