I assume you know that a bin isn't necessary? Manure, when mixed with shavings, sawdust, and straw will compost just fine all by itself in just a pile.

If it has already been piled outside before you got it then it is already well on its way and you can just pile it somewhere - even on the garden and let it sit till spring (preferable). But keep it in a pile. If you spread it out on the garden it isn't going to compost nearly as well or as fast.

If it is fresh then it is best piled somewhere else than the garden and allowed to cook till spring because in your zone you will be planting in less than the recommended 5-6 months.

Dave

All manure has disease pathogens in it, but whether these will pose any problem to you depends on how that manure is used. Some people will tell you that applying manure now will cause any potential disease pathogens to die before you plant unfortunately that is not true because most all of these pathogens can go dormant, just like any other bacteria or virus, and still be viable when the right circumstances appear again.
If manure is applied to a garden then the best thing to do is grow plants that will grow quite high for some years before planting any lower growing crops and especially any root crops.

Thanks for the advice all, but now i've got some more questions if you don't mind.

i realize that i don't need bins to compost the manure, but it makes managing various piles easier for me and is less of an eyesore for my neighbors. The manure comes in bags from the barn, so it hasn't been sitting out for long (maybe a few weeks). Some of it is very fresh. Most of my piles are just this manure and bedding, and i have found that it composts well with no additional material, but it takes two months or so to cook down to half its volume. i have 1 pile that is about 3/4 of its original volume (about 4 weeks old) so i was wondering if i can spread this in an area i plan to plant with vegetables this coming spring.

As you are all in or near my climate zone, i was wondering how much composting will actually take place inside a 4 x 4 x 4 pile during the winter. i usually turn my piles by shoveling from one bin to the next. Can i do this when it is 40F or below in the daytime, and will the pile heat back up again?

Is the pathogen risk related solely to contact/splashing from top dressing? If the manure were turned/tilled into the soil in spring, then mulched with straw, does that reduce the risk of contamination?

Can i spread the fresh manure around young fruit trees/bushes after they go dormant this winter? Thanks for the advice.

Any use of "fresh" manures isn't recommended. It is done by some no doubt, but is not recommended for various reasons. Composting it well first is much preferred and composting, by its nature, isn't intended to be a "in a hurry" process. Patience is required. ;)

it takes two months or so to cook down to half its volume

That isn't composted long enough for safety. 6 months minimum is the common recommendation.

was wondering how much composting will actually take place inside a 4 x 4 x 4 pile

Much more than if it is spread out. The fact that it is "piled" is one of the primary decomposition triggers. There is much more bacterial/chemical interaction in a pile - even if not turned/mixed - than in the same amount spread out over an area.

Can i do this when it is 40F or below in the daytime, and will the pile heat back up again?

Definitely to both. It isn't the air temp that makes it heat up, it is the chemical reaction taking place within the pile and that happens regardless of air temps.

Is the pathogen risk related solely to contact/splashing from top dressing?

No. Contact is the greatest risk for root vegetables and low-growing leafy vegetables but pathogens, if present in the soil/compost/mulch, can also be absorbed into the food product. One need only recall the most recent salmonella and e-coli scares where pathogens were cultured from inside the foods.

Bottom line - safe use of manures in the garden call for 6 months of composting minimum - preferably by mixing it well with other diverse ingredients - before incorporating it into the soil or using it as a mulch or top dressing.

This is not to say that everyone follows those guidelines. Some don't. But not following them is at your own risk.

Dave

There is no real time frame to deterine when your compost is finished, it is finished when it is finished. If your compost, at the end of two weeks looks like finished compost and smells like finished compost it is finished compost. If it takes 6 months to a year to produce finished compost, that is what it takes. To get finished compost in that 14 day time frame you do need to be a very aggressive compost manager and you need the mix very close to optimal adn you need to turn that compost often.

kimmsr is correct that "There is no real time frame to deterine [sic] when your compost is finished, it is finished when it is finished" when one is discussing non-manured compost. But manured compost and composting manures (as in this case) have different guidelines because of the different and potentially hazardous pathogens involved.

For manured compost, and especially in this case where there is no diversity of ingredients and manure is the predominant ingredient, 6 months minimum is the standard recommendation.

Climate, size of the piles, and aggressive management may shorten that time to 4 months in some cases but as a general rule, 6 months is preferable for safety purposes.

Dave

Disclaimer: I've never used horse manure so I could be full of crap.

Possible issues with topical fall application with no incorporation into the soil:
1) Odors during application (proximity of neighbors)
2) Insect attraction
3) Spring runoff. Where the soil is frozen and the spring melt contributes to overland water flow. Obviously not an issue in some climates.
4) Odors during spring thaw. Once again climate would impact this.
5) It may be against the law. Some jurisdictions have requirements to work the material into the soil within X# of days of application. This is geared more toward the agricultural side.

These are just off the top of my head. I realize that some of these issues are also applicable to a spring application. As far as pathogen reduction goes, I come down on the side of longer curing time versus less. If I were to consider using fresh or nearly fresh manure, I would go with a spring application with an almost immediate soil incorporation and let the land be fallow for that growing season. But that's just me.

Lloyd

Properly made 14 day compost is fine because the heat generated during the process is high enough to kill off any disease pathogens that could be present. It is not the length of time manure is composted but the temperatures reached during composting that kills off those pathogens.
Many people think disease pathogens will die outside a body in a short period of time, but they have the ability to go dormant until the right conditions for growth become available again. We all have many disease pathogens in our bodies just waiting for the opportune time to cause problems all while our immune system works to keep these under control. If you had Chicken Pox as a child the chances that you will get Shingles is pretty good, because the virus that caused the CP is still there just waiting for the chance to grow.

using manure in a compost pile is not known to have problematic odors, pt03. you just have to make sure that you have your green to brown ratios closer to ideal, simply put, if it does stink, you need more browns. if it doesn't smell, it's not enough greens, which is no big deal, it will still compost, just not get hot and will take longer.

compost does have insects in it, they help break stuff down, but hot compost will not have any bad insects or maggots/grubs.

what would be threatening to the water sources in compost? the nitrates/nitrites are consumed by the bacteria in the compost.

Hi West

I know about the composting part, I was talking about spreading the manure straight onto the land in the fall without composting it first or incorporating it into the soil. I was just giving some areas that might be a problem. I think that is what the OP was talking about. Could be wrong thogh.

Lloyd

Lloyd, you are right, i was wondering about spreading the manure in the fall, not composting it in a pile first. Thanks for the list of possible issues.

i'm really trying to understand the risks of using manure in the garden and thus far, it seems that using fresh manure is a bad idea because of the risks of pathogen contamination with vegetable crops (still wondering if fruit trees/shrubs are a problem). What i now need to understand is how to be sure that the risk of contamination is reduced. i understand Kimmsr's point about the heat pasteurizing(?) the composted manure, and i understand Dave's point about 6 months being a standard recommendation for length of the process. But isn't it possible for a 6 month old pile to contain pathogens because it never got hot enough to kill everything? Short of taking the pile's temperature every so often, are there other low tech ways to determine when a pile is safe other than time? Haven't people been using manure to fertilize gardens/crops/farmland forever without following specific guidelines about composting it first? Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to ignore your good advice, i'm just trying to understand the science without making the process more complicated. Thanks again all. i'm learning.

i understand Kimmsr's point about the heat pasteurizing(?) the composted manure, and i understand Dave's point about 6 months being a standard recommendation for length of the process. But isn't it possible for a 6 month old pile to contain pathogens because it never got hot enough to kill everything? Short of taking the pile's temperature every so often, are there other low tech ways to determine when a pile is safe other than time?

Your confusion is understandable. ;) And yes, IF it were actually possible to "compost" manure for 6 months and never get it to heat up, pathogens could still exist in it. BUT it isn't possible because of the nature of manure. Manure is high in nitrogen and it will get hot all on its own. Add some carbons to it such as stall cleanings and it will get even hotter, even faster.

And that is why I have to again disagree with kimmsr that 14 days of cooking alone doesn't make it safe and isn't recommended.

It isn't just the high temps, just the heat, that kills the pathogens. It is also exposure to air, the lack of available food for the pathogenic bacteria, and time - time for the beneficial bacteria in the compost to kill the pathogenic ones.

So the low-tech answer to that part of your question is to pile it up and let it cook and then sit for the recommended 6 months.

Please keep in mind that composting isn't intended to be a "quickie" process. By its nature, it takes time. Failure to understand that aspect of the process, trying to rush it not only requires far more effort on your part but leads to poor results.

Haven't people been using manure to fertilize gardens/crops/farmland forever without following specific guidelines about composting it first?

Perhaps so - unfortunately. But then folks have also been canning corn using a boiling water bath for years too despite the well documented hazards of that 25 years ago. Research and testing have come along way in that past 50 years and we can benefit from it if we want to.

But we each have to determine the level of risk acceptable to us. Hurrying a non-manured compost pile along may not help the garden but it won't hurt you. Rushing manure and manured compost can be harmful to you. Use it around your fruit trees and shrubs if you wish - the worst that can happen is nitrogen burn to them. But please give it the time needed before using it on food crops.

Dave

Hi Robert

If you are looking for the "science" from me, man are you barking up the wrong tree!

I grew up (and I use that term loosely) on a mixed farm and the animal manure was always spread onto fields that would be fallow for the summer, no crop would be planted into them until the following spring and even then it was a grain crop.

I do not use manures in my composting but I try to meet the guidleines in place for the composting of them. There are variations in those guidelines and some of them are based on method of composting. In-vessel, static rows, aerated static rows etc etc.

I personally like to get the high heat and cure for a long time. I do not use, nor allow the use of, my compost in the year that it was processed no matter what the application method or venue. I do process a large amount of yard trimmings utilizing sheet composting but once again, no manures are intentionally used. (Occasionally some dog excrement comes out.) These fields are used to grow grains.

As a side note, when we were kids we used to do the rodeo thing with the calves and pigs so falling into the manure was not an issue, we were kids, who cared! Well I guess Mom did because we had to get hosed down outside. LOL

I don't understand why one would deem it necessary to use the non-composted manure in a garden setting but then again I have tons of room to allow for lengthy composting. As Dave said above, I also feel that time is your friend in this case but that is my gut feeling only.

Lloyd

but a good read none the less...

Here is a link that might be useful: BMP

I have always composted this combo of materials (fresh manure, straw/hay or woodchips). It is almost a perfect C:N ratio that regardless of pathogens (and to me that is a legitimate issue) it makes sense because it practically composts itself if piled in a cube. Spread out on the surface, much nitrogen will be lost and your left with a fair amount of carbon, not the worst if you do no till, but if tilled under it gonna bind up at least some nitrogen.

tj

Farmers have spread manures on their fields for eons, and many home gardeners have seen that and thought they could also do that without realizing the crop rotation the farmer used. No knowledable farmer would grow any food for human consumption on a field that was fertilized in two or three years previously. We had ponies at one time and I found that the ponies would not eat hay from a field their manure was applied to for a couple of years after that manure was applied. If the ponies were that smart we should be too.

"No knowledable farmer would grow any food for human consumption on a field that was fertilized in two or three years previously."

A truly knowledgeable person would not make such a comment.

Lloyd

@Thu, Nov 20, 08 at 7:45 "No knowledable farmer would grow any food for human consumption on a field that was fertilized in two or three years previously."

My grandparents all used manure recklessly. One died of tuberculous in 1912, one had a stroke in 1956 and the other two died of COPD in the '60s. Let this be a lesson. Don't do it.

Albert, how do you know manure is the cause of these? Plenty of people suffer these ailments that have probably never even been near manure in their lives. If that's too personal, ignore the question. I'm just curious how a death in 1912 can possibly be linked to one in 1956 of a totally different nature.

Here's some info on the life span of pathogens if it helps...

Ok, it didn't copy/paste right, but click the link and check out Table 2 - Pathogen Survival Times on Plant Tissues and within the Soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Compost & pathogens

Hey, we get very tasty tomatoes and greens with our dog poop, and organic matter lasagna compost!!

I know, I know!!! We've been very agressive (maybe stupid also) when it comes to any type of poop (e.g dog poop and horse poop from the public horse trails nearby). Maybe we've developed an immunity!? LOL!

Seriously though, you should probably be more careful then we are when it comes to poop. My wife does her annual winter dog poop clean-up and dumps the stuff mainly on the raised beds and around the fruit trees. (She grew up on a farm.)

I lasagna compost over that poop or put a little soil and wood chips over it and, voila, tasty veggies and fruit!! Healthy plants also. Who'd figure with all the bad stuff about dog poop. (We feed raw meat and bones mainly.)

I know, I know!!

Carry on, sorry for the rant.

Thanks for all the helpful information. i didn't realize that exposure to air and UV was also responsible for killing pathogens in manure. i didn't know about farmers rotating fields that were manured. i also didn't know that grazing animals will avoid hay from pasture that was recently fertilized with manure. That tidbit got me wondering whether fresh manure would deter deer, but don't worry, i'm not going to try it.

Thanks to Lloyd and Greenbean08 for the links to those articles, they were very helpful in explaining the science. i'm going to have to build more bins to compost the manure (not a big deal since i use wood pallets i get for free) and i'll let them age for a year before i use it in the garden. Thanks again all.

Hope you all don't mind if I chime in with a question. Just yesterday I tilled up 6 beds for planting in the spring. A border bed (3' wide) and 5 other beds each 10' long. I then tilled in about 6" of stable sweepings (manure/sawdust/straw). After that about 4-6" of chopped up leaves. I will just leave all of that until planting in the spring. Is it my understanding that I should not plant any edibles in those beds next spring? Or just no root crops? Or will I be ok planting after that time frame of 6 months has elapsed? Thanks for any additional info provided.

Is it my understanding that I should not plant any edibles in those beds next spring? Or just no root crops?

Yes, it is generally recommended that you do not plant any edibles in those beds next spring. Especially since you tilled it in. Any pathogens or antibiotics used on the animals that it may have contained now have an ideal survival/growing situation rather than the exposed composting that would have killed them.

But as all the above discussion shows, some choose to ignore those recommendations so ultimately it is your choice and risk to take. You don't indicate where you live or the garden zone you are in so there is no way to tell the weather exposure or what you approx. planting dates may be.

So, if it were me I'd plant ornamentals in the beds next year and edibles the following year. But that's just my opinion.

Dave

Dave- not the best news I've gotten lately. I don't post much on the forums, but I do read them quite a bit. After reading a lot of different threads, I have come to respect your opinion. I will wait a year on my present plans and may do some green manures in those beds. But that leaves me with a bit of a dilemna for next spring plantings. The only thing I have available to till in to make planting beds for next year is chopped up leaves. Do you think that will do? I was going to try a variety of simple veggies, and sweet potatoes.

I would consider planting stuff like peas or beans (or any plant where the edible portion does not come into contact with the soil) if the beds mostly maintained an above freezing temperature for the six months. I would also add a mulch such as shredded straw or leaves to prevent any "splash" from the soil. I would pass on any root crops.

How fresh were the stable sweepings?

Lloyd (I'm not a gardener)

robbiemac,
I used "aged" manure (no idea how old, but it had lots of worms in it) for the bulk of the filling in my new raised beds last year. I added some fairly fresh manure to the beds this fall (before I found the info I posted the link to), and to the new beds I'm adding. It's not tilled in, but it's covered with hay or leaves or such. I'm going to take my chances next summer. I'd probably be more concerned if I had small children, elderly or someone with health issues in my house, but I don't. In the future, I'll likely compost it all first, but it's not going to stop me from planting it next year.

I have no experience in gardening with or composting manure, so can't comment on this on methods.

However, my family was touched by this just this past year. My cousin, in her late 50s, had (has?) a food-borne illness (listeria). She has had precarious surgeries to drain puss from her upper spine (neck area, just below the brain). She was transferred to several different hospitals and nursing homes for care for 7 months. Now, a year later, she's paralyzed from the chest down, only able to use here arms. She's at home now, requiring 24 hours total nursing care. After having this knowledge, I'd never take chances on using manure. I'd follow recommended guidelines very, very, carefully.

Karen

Karen- I'm sorry to hear about your cousin. That is sobering. Any idea of what the connection is between the manure and your cousin's illness? Was it from something she ate that had been grown in uncomposted manure, or her handling of manure? Was the manure invoIved very fresh? I don't mean to pry, but I am curious about the known connection. I will avoid whatever brought that upon her. Thank you for any additional info you provide.

Rob Mac

I'm surprised to see the use of horse manure treated with the same suspicion as humanure or pet feces here, which I think is unfair. The people I learned most about organic gardening from have been doing the following every year for twenty odd years, out of necessity (they spend winters in the city working, and summers at their country place, gardening): every October they spread about five tons of horse manure on their gardens and till it in. The manure has minimum six months of soil incorporation before anything is planted. They feed their family of eight, comprising three generations, on their produce, which they eat all summer and haul back to the city in the fall.

In zone 6, at least where we are - but I suspect it's the same in other zone sixes - winter doesn't freeze the ground for six months straight; we get quite a few freeze-thaws. So the soil bacteria are active, working on the manure, for some of the winter and for some time in spring before planting.

That said, I try to compost horse manure in our pallet bins for a few months before using it. I'm not worried about pathogens but about weed seeds - it's terrible for weeds. The people I described above have masses of weeds, partly because of the tilling, partly because it's horse manure and some is fresh.

We found a new source of horse manure very late this fall, so I'm going to try topping a few beds with it, then covering with a 10-12" layer of eelgrass, which is nearly black, to smother sprouting weeds and encourage bacterial activity during bouts of warm weather this winter. The rest went into compost bins.

robbiemac: My cousin lives in another state, so information I got was through her husband. He said that her doctors thought it most likely caused by salad she had eaten at a restaurant. Doctors told him that it is usually due to produce grown in poorly handled manured soil. It wasn't food they had grown at home, they're not gardeners.

Like I said I have no experience with using manure. But when hear of people dying or becoming seriously ill from tainted food, it just seems like one of those rare, far-off things that will never touch our lives. For me, it struck closer to home this time. My cousin is 2 years older than me, and now she's paralyzed. Except for being overweight, she was a normal healthy person a year ago, now a total invalid. When it hits your own family it's a rarely heard of statistic that comes to life.

Karen

It seems like lettuce, spinach, and such greens are the most likely item to be "tainted" by manure products so it seems a good idea to not manure those little plot areas.

I just read today that putting some clay into sewage sludge destroyed all the pathogens This indicates that Mother Nature works hard in the soil to netralize pathogens. I have read where some children in Carolina have eaten a bit of soil...probably an old tradition...but they may be on to something...huh?

I am trying to remember the crop rotation plan my uncle used and about all that I can pull from memory is that a field would be manured, and immediately disced, in the fall with a Winter Rye cover crop planted. Then in the spring that would be disced in and field corn planted (a high Nitrogen feeding crop), and in the years that followed that would be various grains (Wheat, Oats, Rye that he used to feed his animals) along with pasturing and a year of "fallow" (always planted with a cover crop in that "fallow year), a total of 7 years rotation. For the house garden he had an area that kind of followed the same program, one part was manured and planted with a cover crop and as time progressed different vegetables would be planted in different areas depending on what grew where and which nutrients would be taken from the soil and what did this veggie need, but never would anything they were to eat be planted in that area that was manured for a year and when it was what went in that area was something that grew tall, like corn.
There were very good reasons for doing things that way back then that we have lost today.

I am not trying to be demeaning of anyone's family members that have experienced troubles of a very serious degree due to food contamination or anything else for that matter.

BUT, I don't believe that a single instance or even a handful are justification for fearing something, especially without all the facts. My sister has MRSA. Should I never dig in the dirt again because she got it? Maybe I should factor in that she is a germ freak that over cleans (google the hygiene hypothesis) and is a pill addict (thanks to our oh-so-knowledgeable business oriented doctors and her undying trust in them) that has lowered her immune system. A friend of mine had a daughter die in a car crash, my aunt was hit by a semi (dead), and my daughter had a boyfriend recently die in a car crash. Shall I never drive again even though the statistics of being in a crash are higher than getting Listeria? Listeria is found in soil. Not just manure. Shall we all stop eating all food grown in soil just because some people are susceptible to the multitude of infections from bacteria commonly found in soil? Absolutely not. Especially since food handling is the main cause, not food growing.

Simple hygiene at the sink can keep a food poisoning issue to as minimal a point as possible. Overlooked hygiene (not washing your veges BEFORE you slice them and also your hands) is the main cause of foodborne illness on produce. Don't believe me? Look it up on the USDA site or the CDC's site. Both concur. Food-handling.

So, my point: I caution anyone from living a life of fear because of incidents that have occurred even close to home without considering all facts. The fact that listeria is common in soil, manure, and meat completely eliminates possibly knowing that it definitely came from manure. The only way you could possibly know for sure is if you knew that the patient ate manure and nothing else. I'm guessing it's safe to assume that didn't happen.

The point is simply to point out that these things can and do happen. We read statistics and never think this will happen to us, until it does. It just seems prudent to be cautious and follow recommendations, like composting for 6 months rather than spreading on a bed then planting food.

And hygiene, hand washing, washing vegetables doesn't always prevent problems. Remember the tainted organic spinach last year? The bacteria was in the food, washing had no effect.

Karen

Like joe jr., I am not a germ freak or anything like that. However, I do believe that guidelines are in place for a reason and I follow established recommendations for proper composting and food handling.

My sympathies go out to anyone who has experienced or had the experience in their family of a food-borne illness.

Apparently there are those here that are unaware that in the last year there have been at least 5 recalls of vegetables found to be contaminated with disease pathogens from animal manures, lettuce, spinach, tomatoes, as well as meat products. To say that the incidence of these happening is too small to be of any concern is unwise at best, these things happen and are devistating to those that it did happen to. Simply because "we have always done it this way" is not a good enough reason to continue practicing something that has the potential of doing harm.
Animal manures can be used in the garden, if they are used with due care, if common sense practices are used, if you do not grow foods for human consumption on or in those plots or as long as the manure is composted before being put on the soil. Simply because you have never experienced one of these diseases, or know of someone that has, does not mean that the potential is not there and good, common sense manure handling practices do not need to be followed.

Kimm, am I missing something here? I thought this was gardenweb.com not industrialfarm.com. All of those recalls were from large industrial farms that are incredibly guilty of unsafe growth and food handling and the government continually protects them. Both organic and otherwise. As you may recall, I am constantly bashing the idea of "organic" because it is yet another marketing ploy that capitalizes on fear. When people let fear guide decisions, they throw reason out the window.

On organic farms, according to CFR 205.203 of the USDA, they can (and do) apply raw manure up to three months before harvest depending on the crop. It's six months if the edible portion of the crop touches the soil. I figure the original poster might like an actual source. Mind you, I don't agree with all the USDA's practices. I'm just letting you know where there is federally supported info.

Kimm and Karen both fail to point out that the outbreaks were E-coli and not listeria. At least the spinach one was. My point was that you have no way of knowing where the listeria came from because it is everywhere so making irrational decisions based on a case of it is foolish. Also, Karen's case of the spinach is one of the few where the bacteria was actually internalized. It's also a case of a bacteria that many claim man has essentially created through screwing with nature by feeding cattle the wrong food (corn despite having organs specifically for grass) and a boatload of antibiotics that have caused the E-Coli to mutate. Most cases are external bacteria that occur from not washing food properly, not washing your hands (the bacteria is often on unwashed hands and causes food poisoning in many restaurants), or by eating packaged food that says ready to eat that wasn't washed properly and stored in a perfect environment for bacterial proliferation. . . a plastic bag. Don't try to leave out info to make your argument, Kimm. You should know by now I'll fill in the big freaking gaps you leave. The facts still speak for themselves. Improper food handling is the main cause.

On that note, I never said that one should be stupid about manure application. There are guidelines for a reason as has been stated. Nobody said we do this because "we have always done it this way" unless I simply missed that post. We use manure because it's good for plants, good for our waste stream, and generally good for the soil food web.

Sure, there are many outbreaks of food poisoning, various causative organisms, various types of food. There have been countless involving meat, also produce, even peanut butter! Nothing we eat is 100% guaranted safe. I just can't understand why anyone wouldn't follow recommendations for composting manure first before use, especially if it's for your own and your family's food. Why add another possible source of contamination if the solution is to just compost for a few months before use? I guess I just don't understand the logic of rushing the process if it's known to be risky. Seems a simple choice to me.

In reality, it's as simple as can be for me. Manure is not readily available to me here in suburbia. If it were, I'd probably use it, I'd just hot compost it for 6 months beforehand.

Karen

Not all of the products in the past have been from "factory" farms, I can recall on that specifically involved an organic operation from California. Not all of the recalls involved just E-Coli and did include listeria and salmonela, and the recalls only happened after many people ate the products, got sick, and this was reported, by the local health authorities to the Center For Disease Control (CDC). I have been told by those in the know that there are probably 10 people that get sick for everyone reported, because many people do not get quite sick enough to go to the hospital or doctor, and some people think the food poisoning they have is simply the flu and work out a "cure" themselves. Often, because of the length of time that passes from ingesting the poisoned food to getting the signs and symptoms no connection is made to the real cause.

Karen, why use raw manure, you ask? Because the point of using the manure directly is for the nitrogen. The nitrogen that is lost in composting. In fact, many of us use manure in compost because we know it will lose it's nitrogen as it's used to activate that pile. If applied directly to a field and tilled in, more of the nitrogen sticks around and is available when the plant needs it. The bacteria that eat it up in the pile aren't nearly so prevalent in the soil. You can't have the production we have today organically because production today is only possible because we have enough synthesized nitrogen. Farms need as much nitrogen as possible if they don't go synthetic because it doesn't stick around for long in the ground. Especially when you till that ground for planting, which is one of the many reasons for no-till farming. If only composted manure was used, the farms would go out of business thanks to reduced yields. Otherwise, don't you think the USDA would prohibit the use of raw manure altogether? It's necessary. It's that simple. Man has overcome that in only one way, with chemicals. Chemicals not used by those who go the "organic" route.

Kimm, what is it with you and changing words but putting them in quotes as if they aren't your own words? (I know it seems like a matter of semantics to some of you, but factory farming is a very intensive method that involves animal cruelty and the overuse of antibiotics, which makes animal feces toxic and sometimes full of mutated bacteria. Not the same as a family farm or an industrialized organic farm.) I said industrialized farming and the organic farm you mention is likely the same as the one that Karen mentioned concerning the huge surprise E-coli outbreak with an organic spinach producer. THAT IS AN INDUSTRIALIZED FARM! Again, you try to twist things. Industrialized doesn't mean non-organic and you know it. This website is supposed to be about helping people. Not misleading them so you look like you know what you are talking about. So stop doing so. Besides, just because something is recalled doesn't mean it was because they used manure and I know you know that, too. Show me which one determined that listeria was from the manure conclusively. I mean, I can actually reference sources. Can you? In fact, all of those that involve listeria that I have found specifically make a point to mention it could be from manure OR soil. Doesn't exactly prove much, now does it? The only ones that were proven to be from manures in soil were the E-coli outbreaks. The salmonella was from manure being sprayed directly on the plants. That has nothing to do with this discussion. The thread is about putting manure on your garden in fall. Not directly spraying your plants with a water-manure mix.

Okay. I'll stop on this thread. There are real resources out there. I referenced some. Go enjoy gardening and refuse to live in fear unless the facts (and I mean all of them)...

This thread raises the question: if your choice is to buy conventionally-grown produce from a faraway mega-farm, or non-certified organic produce from a small local farm, which do you choose? Do you trust the organic grower to handle manure safely? I do, because I don't associate 'small' and 'organic' with 'fly-by-night'. There's far too much hard labour and study and research involved.

I hope your cousin recovers, Karen - what a nightmarish scenario. The message I get from it and from reading the article below is to avoid eating cold cuts, salads in restaurants, and bagged greens from big farms far away.

Here is a link that might be useful: American scientist article

We're growing about 5000 sq ft of veggies, berries, semi-dwarf fruit trees, and vines - mostly to feed two adults. We've used composted horse and cattle manure, cover crops, straw mulch, kitchen & cornstalk waste compost, and somtimes alfalfa meal to enrich the basically sand & silt mineral soil we have here.

Having used compost and composted manures, I'm well aware that these tend to be pretty low in nitrogen, though sometimes high in worm content.

Bagged alfalfa meal seems, in our experience, to be fairly high in nitrogen. But we recently traded something to a woman who keeps horses and got a largish load of fairly green horse manure in return. I'm kind of sad to read this thread, because we've contemplated using fresher horse manure because its N content would be higher - but the pathogens would be an issue.

What, besides just basic organic matter, do you think well composted horse manure has left to offer as a garden soil amendment?

Properly composted animal manures, cow, horse, sheep, goat, etc. still has much to offer besides "just organic matter" even though testing does not reveal the levels of nutrients in that compost. The nutrients are not readily available which are the nutrients testing will find.
Because some 76,000,000 people in the USA suffer from food poisoning each year, that is just the reported numbers, due care in using animal manures is simply common sense.

"What, besides just basic organic matter, do you think well composted horse manure has left to offer as a garden soil amendment?"

The basic benefit of using animal manures is that of the added organic matter. These secondary benefits are the nutrients that come with it, typically low, but longer-term availability.

The major risks associated with using manures are the enteric pathogens that they may carry. There are two basic strategies to mediate pathogens : (1) heat via composting, and (2) age. In commercial agriculture using the compost approach, the USDA requires a temperature of 131-170 ðF for at least 3 days with an aerated static pile for compliance with their "certified organic" program. In addition the initial compost formulation must have a C:N ratio within a range of 25-40 :1. Using age, raw (uncomposted) animal manure must be incorporated into the soil not less than 120 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion has direct contact with soil; or incorporated into the soil not less than 90 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion does not have direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles.

I'm not sure about regulations, but because of specific pathogen issues the use of swine, sheep, cat and dog manures is broadly discouraged, and the USDA specially prohibits the use of sewerage sludge in organic agriculture.

Seems like the use of horse (or other animal) manure directly in your soil necessitates follow-up with a nitrogen-fixing cover crop, which would then be plowed in. Manure, followed by cover-crop rotation, requires that your garden be larger than simply the area that you use to supply your annual veggie crop, right? Then you can have a portion that is being entirched, and which can be used for another year's veggie production.

Another approach some people follow is to manure the garden in the fall, overwinter it, then amend the soil with the nitrogen needed for good crop development - coming from some specifically N-heavy "fertilizer", such as feather meal, alfalfa meal, etc. I know some of the people who follow "biological agriculture" (a la Acres USA) feel it's okay to use an N source like artificial (manufactured) urea - as they say it's the same molecule as produced by animal kidneys, and is digested in the soil by natural soil bacteria (just as natural urea is).

My husband spread fresh horse manure over my newly planted vegetable garden, which includes leafy greens, herbs and tomato plants. I am afraid that the produce from the garden will be contaminated with pathogens, since the manure has not had a chance to compost. I guess I will have to dig up my whole garden and begin again! What a pain!

Tomatoes for one should not be a problem. By the time they get ripe the manure will have been there for awhile. Also they grow up off the ground.

As for lettuce and herbs, you have a problem if it was REALLY fresh. Are you sure it came right out of the barn and did not sit in a pile at all?

If so, you could remove it, and maybe mulch with something over the top of the ground to avoid splashing up anything off the surface onto the plants. I'm just guessing here. In any case I don't know that it would be worthwhile to dig everything up and start over. I'd be finding out more about the manure first if you don't know for sure.