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| I've read where aragonite can be used as a nitrate source due to it's high porosity. It supposedly can contain 250,000 bacteria per gram, which equates to 113.5 million per pound. I haven't found any scientific proof that this will create enough nitrates to eliminate the need for a nitrogen fertilizer. The original statement was made at the site http://raw-aragonite.com. This is the same aragonite that is being sold by Fertrell as an organic calcium supplement. I contacted Fertrell and while they admit nitrates could be created by the free-living nitrate fixing bacteria, they have never investigated it for this use. There are quite a few anecdotal accounts of aragonite being beneficial, but no definitive proof that it's caused by the nitrogen fixing bacteria. Anyone have any input on this? If I can't find any proof, I guess I'll have to go down the road of doing my own study on it. I figured I'd hit up the community for some input first, though. Thanks |
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| Aragonite is mostly calcium carbonite...ground from mineral deposits or mollusk shells. The amount of small pourous areas and a high surface around would give bacteria a lot of place to set up, but to get enough bacteria to "die" to form enough nitrate for agriculture use you'd need an extremely huge amount of the stuff to get decent N...plus a very healthy bacteria population. You'd probably need many 100s of pounds per acre of the stuff plus inoculate (or create favorable conditions) for bacterial growth while finding a way to incorporate the stuff without it effecting soil pH adversely. |
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| Even if this mineral were able to be a nitrate source you still would need enough organic matter in your soil to feed the Soil Food Web so they could convert that into something plants could uptake. Expend your time and energy in getting the level of organic matter in your soil up to par and you probably won't need to spend money on this overly expensive product. |
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- Posted by PabloPicasso none (My Page) on Tue, Dec 18, 12 at 12:06
| Aragonite is actually formed in the water column in very warm waters when dissolved calcium in the supersaturated water precipitates onto a grain of something, whether that's another grain of aragonite or a small bit of shell. Over time, the grain gains enough layers of precipitated calcium to fall to the ocean floor. The recommendation for aragonite is 250-750 pounds per acre. So, the suggestion that you'd need hundreds of pounds per acre is accurate (according to raw-aragonite.com). Heavy nitrification reduces the pH of the soil. As the pH decreases the rate of nitrification also decreases. An additional benefit of aragonite is that it buffers the pH up, allowing nitrification to continue at high levels for extended periods. The aragonite itself acts as a carbon source for the bacteria for nitrification. Additional organic matter isn't required as a food source for the bacteria. The product is priced at $300/ton, which should handle between 2.5-8 acres. If this can be used as a replacement for nitrogen fertilizer, it could actually cost less. This is where I'm stuck. Can it replace nitrogen fertilizer or is it snake oil? |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr 5 (My Page) on Tue, Dec 18, 12 at 13:26
| I don't know the answer to your question, but it occurs to me that if the folks selling the stuff have not investigated it themselves, that should say something. Not that there couldn't be research out there about it, just saying. A few thoughts and questions to be considered: 250,000 bacteria per gram is very small. Most healthy soil has millions to billions of microbes per gram. So it does not seem like a microbial boost, at least in terms of total numbers. If it's all about surface area, does it really add significant surface area for microbe growth? I forget how many tons of soil are in an acre-foot, but even a ton per acre of an amendment would, again, be a tiny addition to the total mass and therefore the total surface area. If, instead, it's all about using carbonate while producing nitrate, why wouldn't any calcium carbonate work just as well? Just some things that come to mind, not pretending to have all the answers to them. |
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- Posted by PabloPicasso none (My Page) on Tue, Dec 18, 12 at 14:42
| I agree on the lack of research. That's what got me wondering if there's anything to the claims. The surface area of aragonite is huge. It's very porous. Aquarists use aragonite as a substrate and filter media specifically because of the porosity, which gives the bacteria enormous area to thrive. There just isn't anything better than aragonite for surface area in a small space. Does that translate to huge surface area for soil-dwellng bacteria? No idea. I've searched extensively for research papers on aragonite as a soil amendment for free-living nitrifying bacteria and have come up empty. Aragonite is a form of calcium carbonate, just as limestone and crushed shells. Limestone and crushed shells are calcite, which is a very hard form of calcium carbonate. Aragonite has a different crystal lattice that forms a weak bond, increasing the solubility. The increased solubility makes the calcium in aragonite more freely and easily available for plants. So, there are definite benefits for using aragonite as a calcium source as opposed to the other forms of calcium carbonate. While typical soil contains enormous amounts of microbes, does that translate to enormous amounts of nitrifying microbes? I've read that typical soil will product less than 10 pounds per acre of nitrates per year, which is considered insignificant for crops. Thus, the need for nitrogen supplements. Perhaps the solubility of aragonite that will increase the pH of the soil to allow for higher rates of nitrification in the soil bacteria themselves is part of the added benefit. More questions than answers. Anyone know of a soil scientist or agronomist that might be able to do some analysis? If I can't get answers, I plan to do a soil study both with and without plants to determine nitrification benefits of aragonite. I think it would be interesting to see whether soil nitrates will increase simply by adding aragonite, and then to be able to measure the exact amount. I will also perform the test with plants to determine if there's any growth improvement with using aragonite. |
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| I assume it's whoppingly expensive compared to ground limestone? |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr 5 (My Page) on Wed, Dec 19, 12 at 10:51
| It appears to be...$300/t vs., well, around here I can get limestone fines from the quarry at $20/ton. Whoppingly? 5 yard penalty and loss of down for makin up words. :-D |
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| Snake oil. Nitrogen can't be made out of nothing. Plants use up nitrogen from the soil. Either you put it back before planting again, or plants fail to thrive. When you need nitrogen, you need to add nitrogen. Pretty straight forward. |
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- Posted by toxcrusadr 5 (My Page) on Wed, Dec 19, 12 at 15:38
| I won't argue the snake oil point, but if you have to add nitrogen to grow anything...who fertilizes the rest of the world when we're not looking? There are, indeed, microbes that pull it out of the air. But I don't think this will particularly enhance them. |
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| When bacteria die they add N/nitrate to the soil. That said, you're talking about very small amount...almost negligible until you have a massive amount dieing off...which would be helped (in theory) by having all these surface areas in a mineral like this to hang out around. That said, while the bacteria are still alive they consume N...so you get another negligible situation of self-feeding unless you get more dieing that living in the soil system. |
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| Also, as far as N-fixing bacterias hanging around a substance like this, it's a non-issue. The bacteria that fixates atmospheric N is a symbiotic relationship with a plant as much as it is the bacteria, itself. The plants that fixate atmospheric N can kinda be thought of as "sinks" for storage that are facilitated by the N-fixing bacteria. You need both for the noticeable effect. The plants can only fix/store so much of this, though...so you're better off focusing on the quality of the plant to fixate the N rather than increasing the amount of N-fixing bacteria once you already have a healthy population of N-fixing bacteria. |
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- Posted by PabloPicasso none (My Page) on Wed, Dec 19, 12 at 19:48
| There are both symbiotic and free-living nitrogen fixing bacteria. The symbiotic bacteria work within certain plants to create nitrates. Free-living bacteria live in/on the soil and anything else and fix nitrogen from the atmosphere. Aragonite would involve free-living bacteria by giving them increased surface area in which to live. |
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| Most "free-living" bacteria will take in N from any source and mostly from the soil before the atmosphere if available. Until they "die" they're practically useless, yet more dieing would feed those that spawn unless you can manage your cycle of bacterial life to create then dump via death. That would be the hard part and probably require a future inoculation to get the population back up and running for the next cycle. In the end, it's a very small amount of N addition for the amount of input...and in this kind of farming/harvesting method to get that N there would be concerns about pH in some soils given the easily weathered structure of the parent material heavy in CaCO3. It wouldn't be so bad in acidic soils, though it would do little to address one of the main problems with acidic soils, aluminum sequestration, compared to some other more complete (and less "pure") liming materials. |
This post was edited by nc-crn on Wed, Dec 19, 12 at 20:34
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