What I find fascinating about this back and forth conversation between Lloyd and Robert is that while both operations are huge, they are totally different.

It seems (to my somewhat novice being) that you two are working almost polar opposite of each other in the way you are working your compost piles/bins/tumblers.....and yet....it all comes out looking like great compost.

It just goes to show that there is no right or wrong way to do this (more or less). That might be why some people get angry at other people when they try to sound like their way is the only right way.

Who was/is it on this forum that always said, "It all leads back to compost"? Never a truer word spoken.

Val

Well said Val

As I have stated previously, I am generally lazy so I am always on the lookout for different methods that I can "borrow" and incorporate into what I do. (Some people call it stealing but hey, if they offer the information freely, I'm gonna look at it).

Vance and Bill(squeeze) helped me build my sifter and didn't even complain about me being a huge pain in the butt with the 20 question routine! Bill (Gonefishin' RIP) gave me the idea of using the bale forks for the windrows. CG2, GG48 and McLove 'n Hugs fed me information (as important as the physical equipment)in a format even I can somewhat comprehend. Heck pbgreen teaches us how to post better! :-) Lot's of others gave me ideas that I have used and continue to use, so I keep coming back for more!

But I can only use procedures that meet my guidelines of safety. For both the physical well being of myself and any workers, as well as the safety of the finished compost. There are rules and guidelines for composting that I strive to achieve, not so much that I have to, but because it is probably a good idea to.

I don't do manures, I might some day, but so far I haven't. Though I try to meet the composting guidelines as if I were. I think that by doing this, my compost oughta be safe.

What's the best method? There is no best method, too many variables from person to person and operation to operation for anyone to claim "it's the best" .

I know some of this stuff is way beyond what an average homeowner is concerned with and I thank you all for being patient whilst I perused Roberts techniques.

Lloyd

Oh Lloyd...please don't think it has anything to do with patience that I watch this thread. Even though I don't have an operation like yours or Robert's....I do find it fascinating. Who knows, I might pick up some useful tidbit of knowledge!

And besides, everyone here should be old enough to know how to ignore a thread if it's not what they are interested in. I certainly know how (big grin)

Val

Lloyd, What do you use as a primary nitrogen source with all those leaves?

Robert

Hi Robert

While it is difficult to tell from the pictures, there is a substantial amount of grass clippings in there. There are also many bags of plants/flowers that were still quite green thus giving this pile a decent C:N ratio.

That pile stayed warm well into January with water vapor being vented out. I don't think the center ever froze but it had a frozen crust hard enough that I could walk on it!

Once spring came around and the grass started being delivered, I mixed in two additional truckloads of clippings. This brought the temperatures back up nicely.

Here is photo of the windrows, the darkest one on the far right is the one from the fall of '07, the rest are from this fall.

Lloyd

Robert, I have a question or two. I've noticed in some other posts that you advocate adding molasses and also dog food. I don't know about molasses as I've never bought it but in the case of dog food...at least for me.....it would be quite an expensive additive.

I do have a dog and she eats very well, but even if you are using low grade (cheap) dog food, wouldn't it be cost prohibitive as an additive?

And second, what is the whole point of the dog food being added? Isn't there enough food in your mix or does the compaction have something to do with it?

And third, with all the stuff you are getting from various areas, why would you want to spend the money on additional ingredients? Or, is the molasses/dog food important to your operation somehow?

Hmmm...I think that was more than one or two. Those will do for now :-)

Val

Val--I've added cat and/or dog food a couple of times, but only when I found it at the dollar store. It doesn't take much to get things going. The advantage to cat food over dog food is that it is higher in protein, but it may have more salt in it, so I don't use it often (salt build up can be a problem in arid areas).

If there's a feed store handy, it may be less costly to get something like soybean meal or alfalfa pellets.

Aha! So it's used more like an accelerator? Funny, I never would have thought of hard dry dog food in that way.

If I wrap my mind around the fact that it's being used in that way, and given the obvious that Robert is trying to make compost really fast, I guess the use of dog food is more cost effective than an expensive "compost accelerator".

Still hard to imagine "dog food" as an accelerant.

Thanks bpgreen - Val

cowgirl2,

You're pretty good at 'ferreting'. I'm impressed too, particularly with your evident desire to understand, which I relate to.

My biggest problem is putting what I do understand, into language that other people can relate to; so they can see the need for them to understand, and therefore choose to take action. Not an easy task.

As Lloyd so aptly put it - "...should I even really be caring about this?"
My reply is "yes, certainly" Because what we do, has an intended result, and it has a 'set' of ACTUAL results. Do you know the difference between them? Is that important? Should it be?

We either "throw a pile together" and accept "the way it is - as it is", because that's the way we do it...

Or we choose to engage more of our energy toward a more specific set of end results (which just might be better than "the way we've been doing it") and therefore learn something from the experiment - and if positive, then consider the option to change our methodology to accommodate that improvement, depending on whether doing so saves cost and time.

But to do that, we have to welcome change, to become more deeply involved in the process - and try to understand more about what it is we are ACTUALLY doing.

That's where (in my opinion) most composters 'draw the line' - to protect their current 'mindset'. Humans are reticent to change.

From my research, it seems that the 'process' (including rate) of decomposition depends on which specific 'set' of microorganism are active at a given time, based on the existing composition of the material (C:N etc.), in conjunction with temperature/moisture content of the material 'environment' in which certain microbes thrive - and a given pile's 'state of maturity' (from a decomposition perspective) is also relative to time.

It's not so much how many of the various 'critters' there are (numerically - or their volume), but the different functions that each 'set' performs in the process. The 'scheme' of things, one might say...

Science still does not know the full extent of inter-relationships of the different microbe populations ('sets' or 'cycles') at any given point (in the decomposition process).

But most soil scientists agree that specific relationships do exist, and each 'set' produces by-products (such as enzymes) which 'trigger' shifts in microbe population cycles to accomplish different actions to the decomposing matter, each in their 'turn'. This is how humus is made.

We know how the heat in a pile is generated, by which microorganism 'set' and what they assimilate to produce that heat. We also know that the heat is short-lived, and why - and that it can and (with regard to composting) should be extended (to maximize humus production), and how to accomplish that end.

Unfortunately, translating that scientific information into practical activity is another matter, because there is no recognized 'best way'. Too many variables.

The "I'm happy with what I got" or "works for me" syndrome, without knowing much beyond 'generalities', what the scientific result or process is - other than "my plants like it".

"Most compost-oriented folks" look at the materials available, and that's what is focused on - not what other materials might be needed to 'balance' a pile to maximize results for more effective/efficient end purposes. Because they do not see the need to investigate any different end purpose.

So the view of providing immediate needs for plants - or plants we are going to have - from a nutrition/moisture retention perspective - still prevails.

Composting to affect long-term soil improvement (humus content) still 'takes a back seat' - for now.

Sure, we can be 'amazed' at the terra preta plots of ground discovered along the Amazon river in South America -(National Geographic magazine, Sept.'08 - said to be the most fertile in the world - produced by an ancient civilization that no longer exists. Learn from it? Do anything about it? No.

Which is why President Roosevelt said: "The history of every nation is eventually written in the way in which it cares for its soil".

Nutrient and moisture considerations to improve plant growth and harvest has almost always been the major focus of backyard composting - but is is certainly not the 'whole story'.

The best part of Mother Nature's process is called humus, and we are just beginning to realize that the microbes that change nutritive elements in dead plant matter BACK into forms plants can use AGAIN...

ALSO transform a percentage of that 'sweet-smelling black stuff' into almost pure carbon that will no longer decompose - which PERMANENTLY (not temporarily as in the case of matter that continues to decompose) changes values in the soil in a positive direction for plants AND the entire planet.

We are beginning to realize how Mother Nature actually "heals" soil. Repairs 'broken' and damaged soils.

We still have a lot to learning from M.N., and in my opinion, it is important for people who compost, to pay more attention to what they are actually doing - the way they do it - and try to learn how to do a better job of it - so they 'see' the larger 'picture' with regard to conditioning/healing their soil - instead of just 'feeding' plants in their garden.

Most people don't yet realize that this is a part of the 'global warming' issue and our 'carbon footprint'. We are realizing that it IS everybody's responsibility - because as a globally-expanding human population, we all, individually, affect the world's environment. Same issue with air quality, is also true for the way our world's soil is being mistreated.

Robert

Robert

I read it twice, I'm not sure what it is you are trying to tell us.

And I guess my question "...should I even really be caring about this?", wasn't clear about the this that I was wondering if I should be caring about.

Should I care if someone states that it is fungus causing the heat when everything, and I mean everything I have read, says it is the bacteria that is responsible for the heat generation?

After all, someone ought to know and if there is a correct answer then we should all be "reading from the same page" so to speak. If all that I have read was incorrect then I need to get with it and correct what I tell people in the future

Classic conundrum. Why do I care and does it really matter?

Lloyd

Robert, was that long response in answer to my molasses and dog food question?

Even though I'm not cowgirl I understand why you'd be confused since we look so much alike :-)

Val

Hmmmm, I have a lot yet to learn about using words to communicate. Do apologize for any confusion, and all I can say is: "I'm learning". Please bear with me.

Val, the answer is no - my previous post does not address your question. But will address that issue now...

Yes, the molasses and pet food amendments function as an 'accelerator' (of sorts), which are used specifically (and only) to affect HEAT-causing (thermophylic) microbes by me.

The term 'microbes' used by me, includes ALL microorganisms involved in the decay process (predominently bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and algae), of which there may be hundreds of different strains (of each) active in a pile at any given time, depending on what pile materials consist of.

The issue of using an 'accelerator' in the context presented, is ONLY relative to the 1ST TURN of a pile (not a new build, or 2nd, 3rd or later turns).

While all microbes may benefit from such infusion, my ONLY purpose of adding sugars/starches to a 1st turn compost pile is ensure a sufficient food source for heat-generating microbes, to cause a 2nd heat to 130F - 140F degrees, mainly for freshly-turned (but nothing else added) material in the 2nd heating process.

After a 2nd heat, heat-causing microbes have 'done their job' (to break down tough cellulose/lignin) and mesophilic (non-heat generating) microbes should be allowed to do their work without being killed by additional re-heating.

Yes, I'm aware that some folks use a 'continuous-add' method, and a pile is reheated over and over and over again. I use that same method also (in my cinderblock 'critter pile'), but in this case we are only discussing a finish-to-harvest method which does not use any additional new material, start-to-finish.

Sugars and carbohydrates/starches are the primary food for heat-causing microbes, whether bacterial or fungal, etc. When such 'fast' food is depleted in a pile (and almost all organic materials have some), it will no longer heat to a high enough temperature (for my purposes - no matter what other things I have tried so far). And yes, we are still referring to carbon/nitrogen/protiens, but in specific forms IMMEDIATELY available for heat-producing microbes.'

The human body does (kinda) the same thing with sugars and carbs/starches to produce our energy and maintain our body heat.

Let me preface the next statement with this:
A sufficient supply of re-heat food MAY already exist in the pile being turned, but pile temperature decreased for other reasons.
NO additional 'accelerator' may be needed to attain a sufficient re-heat. That's a determination that the pile-turner has to figure out.
My advice is - when in doubt, add - because once the pile is turned - and does not attain sufficient 2nd heat - it's much more difficult to 'heat it up' later (but can be done).

And sometimes underestimated the heat-producing capability of initial material mix performance (such as manure or grass clippings being more aged than I thought), since the new-build did not heat to my MINIMUM 135F requirement for 3 days. If that happens, I'm definitely going to add 'fast food' to the the 1st turn, to ensure a complete heat.
I try not to create a mix that exceeds 140F, but with too much molasses added, it can happen, which kills too many mesophylic microbe populations that are needed next in the cycle.

Understand that most 'backyard' composters have NO such requirements, since they are not as concerned about product safety, consistency and nutrient values of their results, since they don't sell their product - so they don't have buyers who require independent analysis reports by a soil laboratory.

I recommend that the 1st turn of a pile be accomplished in layers, for material inspection as the rebuild takes place, and sometimes add 'fast food' to some layers and not others. I may add dry molasses to one pile in 4-6 builds. Winter more than summer, since my fresh nitrogen sources here are more limited during cold seasons, and sometimes will add blood meal and pulverized charcoal if appropriate. Depends.

IF needed, the best re-heat 'food' I've found is DRY molasses (compressed starch pellets coated with molasses) at a rate of 1 cup per 35-40 square feet of a 4"-6" layer (watered-in).
Second best is a dilution of 'liquid' molasses (8 oz. to 4 gallons) and pulverized cheap pet food in place of the pelleted starch (can be used whole), stirred into a 'slurry' with a drill-type paint stirrer in a 5-gallon bucket and distributed with a small bucket such as a coffee can.
Or pet food scattered on a layer with the diluted molasses sprayed on with a pump-up garden sprayer, then lightly watered-in. Tried 'em all and all work. I try not to spend more than $5 on such items total, for a 1st turn pile - if they are needed.

The alternative is longer pile decomposition time and reduced product quality. I try to harvest a 1+ ton pile in 90-100 days from first-build.

Hope that explanation helps...Many folks won't understand it because they are not familiar with my methodology, and most folks will find it not relevant to how they compost, and I have no issue with that - but I think that it never hurts to keep learning. I think it's fun.

Lloyd, please don't be offended by my inability to express myself effectively. I have no intention of taking exception with your comments - all of which have been enlightening. I already recognize that your composting skills are way beyond mine in many areas, and hopefully you are a very patient person...

Robert

"a rate of 1 cup per 35-40 square feet of a 4"-6" layer"

To put this in perspective for the "backyard" composters here, that translates to a cup for 11 2/3 to 20 cu ft. Many of the home made bins are aiming for 1 cu yd, which is 27 cu ft. My bin is about 12 cu ft and when I've bought pet food at the dollar store, it was more than a cup. So in terms of added cost, what he's proposing would be almost nonexistent for most of us and pretty minimal even for the larger operations. As he said, he tries to keep the cost below $5 for a ton (literally--2000 lbs) of compost. I can't imagine producing that much compost (ok, I can imagine it, but I don't think I have room to do it).

I take kind of a "seat of the pants" approach to composting. Mostly I just add what I have and let it compost.

I never used a compost thermometer until a few years ago, when a neighbor bought a pallet of stuff at an auction and ended up with one he didn't have a use for.

My basic approach is that if it's not heating up, I add water, mix it, and/or add something relatively high in nitrogen. If it stinks, I mix it up and/or add something relatively high in carbon.

I've got a fairly technical background and I can understand the chemistry and biology that have been discussed.

My confusion and question is about your comments about the thermophilic microbes (I used to think all the thermophilic activity was bacterial, but thanks to you have done more reading and see that fungi are also involved, so I'll say microbes) using lots of sugars. I've gotten hot compost using nothing but used coffee grounds and shredded paper. As I'm sure you know, paper is almost pure cellulose. Although the chemical formula is pretty close to sugar, it's much harder to break down. If the heat is caused by the digestion of sugars, why does my compost heat up from the addition of high N ingredients rather than high C ingredients, and why would a batch of only coffee grounds and paper heat up?

Is it a case of the "wrong" microbes being fed?

After reading your comments on heat, I'll watch more closely when I have hot batches and try to keep the heat lower. I've seen it go above 160F before and thought that was a good thing, but I guess that's not the case.

Maybe I'll get some dried molasses and try to heat a pile with that instead of something high in N. I'm trying to wrap my head around this, since my experience has always been that adding N heats my compost. But my C sources have always been more complex and I've never tried adding simpler sugars.

Not offended at all Robert. Just wanted to ensure what I was questioning was understood.

I now get your use of the term microbes to be all inclusive.

While we are doing questions, I have a couple more.

When you water during an initial build using manures, are there any concerns of the leachate containing large quantities of pathogens?

Is this leachate recycled into the compost after heating thereby re-introducing the pathogens into the compost?

Does that leachate sit on the pad for any length of time? Is there any chance of animals getting to it to consume it?

Is there any smell to the pad area? Looking at the pictures I see the dark brown gunk on the plastic and was wondering if that had any odor associated?

I did have a question about the preservatives and chemicals in dog food but now see that the amount is so small it is insignificant so we'll forget about that one.

I've tried to check to see if your methods are compatible with guidelines but I don't know what to call it.

Your methods are intriguing.

Lloyd

Lloyd, you do have an inquisitive mind - that's a good trait...

Q: When you water during an initial build using manures, are there any concerns of the leachate containing large quantities of pathogens?
A: No. Not even in small numbers, that I have found with my microscope, and neither have other folks I correspond with.
But I'm not a pathologist, either. But let's be clear about the definitions of "pathogens".
That's a 'generic' term like my use of the word 'microbes'. Pathogens are microbes too, and part of that definition.
Pathogens are certain microbes identified as detrimental to human health. Veterinarians include animals/birds, etc. too.

I know what the 'bad critters' look like from photos, but truthfully, have not found even one 'bad one' in my leachae/leachate since I began looking for them. Not saying they don't exist - just saying I have not found any yet. But I do look for them.
As a RWH professional, I know how to test materials for coliform bacteria (particularly e.coli), and others.
I've read technical reports that say pathogens exist more often in cattle manure, more than horse manure.
Which seems to be attributed more to 'feed lot' cattle which are 'pumped', thereby damaging their immune systems.
Normal immune systems (even of people) can 'fend off' a coliform attack - but takes less e.coli (the really 'bad one').
And all agree that even if pathogens did exist, they would not likely survive composting.
Not so much due to heat - but are more often killed by beneficial microbes.
But then again, I only take a few small samples per initial pile, and again after 1st turn.
However, getting back to the issue of leachae:

Liquid that is concentrated - that is, collected during build, and reapplied through successive layers, and therefore drained through multiple layers, is a true 'liquid picture' of the solid matter in the pile.
Even to determining C:N ratio if desired (which I have, but it is not worth the effort - at least with the procedure I used).

Nutritional makeup will be the same, although one important distinction is needed in this regard:
Nutritional components have not be 'changed' by the microbial process yet. Nutrition is still in "raw" state.
That simply means that microbes in soil (where you put the 'tea') will have to do their job - before plants can use it.
The microbes that do that are called mycorrhizae/mycorrhizal. See: http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=40
They are plant root parasites with a very necessary symbiotic relationship to plant roots.
Plants provide them energy - the micorrhizae provide the plants with 'ready to eat' nutritients.
Long ago, we thought that plant root hairs did all that 'by themselves' - but now know it is mostly fungus that feeds root hairs.
In about 95% of the plants in the world. Google for the word: mycorrhizal
I purchase mycorrhizal stains to innoculate my finished compost and compost 'tea' prior to distribution.
Makes a BIG difference in plant growth - particularly containerized, and in vegetable gardens.
That's a 'secret' by the way - one-upmanship on my competition.

Q: Is this leachate recycled into the compost after heating thereby re-introducing the pathogens into the compost?
A: Yes. No.
Yes, fresh and/or aerated (stored) leachae is used as inoculant in a new build, to increase microbe populations initially, so the pile gets a 'head start' on heating up (not waiting on existing thermophyllic population in new materal to 'kick-start' and reproduce to the point where the pile starts getting hot from mainly the center - where primary biomass compression exists).
Yes, if needed, into a 1st turn (which gets another heat) - along with molasses/carb's.
No, after a pile has heated twice, NO additional inoculant is needed, so no possibility of re-introduction.

But let's take this question another step forward, because the greatest use of leachae (compost 'tea') is as an amendment - as a soil drench, not as pile inocculant. Here's where soil microbes 'step up' to destroy possible pathogens instead of along with pile heat. In my opinion, the e.coli outbreak in the spinach crop would have been averted if the spinach-growers cared for their soil properly - i.e., maintained an effective 'set' of soil microbes, instead of killing them with commerical agricultural chemicals to allow the more-resistant (to chemicals) e.coli bacteria to 'take over'. Agricultural stupidity for the sake of a dollar - and killed/wounded innocent people. Mostly young and elderly with deficient immune systems.

Q: Does that leachate sit on the pad for any length of time? Is there any chance of animals getting to it to consume it?
A: No, Yes, And Yes - but wouldn't hurt the animals (e.coli from cow poop might kill you, but doesn't kill the cow).
No because the bulk of the 'tea' is pumped into my 1,000 gallon tank which will drown any critter who gets thru the cover.
Yes, because the pile will continue to drain for a half day or so after watering is completed, which is later pumped out.
And since the pile is not fenced, a critter could drink some while I'm not there.
But wouldn't hurt the critter - possum, coon, 'dillo, coyote, wild cat/dog - they all scarf rotting road kill.
And I don't eat those critters raw. (or cooked).
And as previously stated - I haven't found any bad microbes in the tea - yet.

Q: Is there any smell to the pad area? Looking at the pictures I see the dark brown gunk on the plastic and was wondering if that had any odor associated?
A: No - not to my nose. Not even in the deep vat. And while I recommend occasional aeration of some kind - even anaerobic, 'tea' does not smell.
If you toss a week's worth of kitchen scraps into a big bucket and cover them with water - and wait a week - now THAT stinks.
Compared to that, quality leachae has no smell at all.

But let's take this question another step forward. I can also tell you how it tastes, having done that, to prove to a Master Gardener that there is no reason to be afraid of e.coli killing people in the compost 'tea' that I make. I didn't swallow it, 'cause while I admit to being crazy, I'm not stupid. Probably would have given me a case of "green apple quick-steps" if I had. Remembering that I've looked for 'badness' in my 'tea', and to me, it's pretty safe. Awful-tasting stuff (bitter) - but y'know, I've 'eaten' more cow manure in one day during a herd roundup to run 'em through a chute for the vet, than I have in a year of spraying wind-blown tea on piles. I know the taste well. Does not stain clothing or skin. You can find lots of bottled 'tea' brands on nursery store shelves.

I did have a question about the preservatives and chemicals in dog food but now see that the amount is so small it is insignificant so we'll forget about that one.
OK...

Q: I've tried to check to see if your methods are compatible with guidelines but I don't know what to call it.
A: Yeah, I've had the same trouble - and I know what to call it.
But it's kinda neat when you get to design your own standards - and the soil lab 'buys into' it.
That's what I mean about operating on the "leading edge"...

Example: The word 'quality' is a 'generic' term, when used with the word 'compost', no matter whose 'guidelines' you use.
Why? Because there are NO ACTUAL quality standards accepted by the 'experts' who create such composting 'guidelines'.
Why? Because most 'experts' function mostly on practical methodology - not on what scientists report from their findings.
Why? Choose not to give my opinion about the 'experts' at this time. Read between the lines...
Because there ARE some experts 'out there' who really are trying to 'pin' this issue down, not just sell books.

The statement below is simply my personal opinon of one particular example:
Most 'experts' who create guidelines "talk-the-talk" with regard to C:N RATIO - but they don't "walk-the-talk".
I was aghast to find that some of those 'experts' don't regularly maintain compost piles, and a few NEVER have.
Takes a LOT of book-reading - but check it out for yourself...You can find some incredible contradictions.
Between any number of the various RECENT authors you select to sample...
I'm a writer (not a very good one yet) and so I read a lot, and experiment a lot.
Show me a guideline that actually instructs you in a valid procedure to determine the C:N ratio of YOUR pile materials.
99% of people who 'backyard' compost don't "have a clue" of what to look for, much less conduct accurate field tests.
And from my experience, testing isn't worth the effort anyway - it's really a matter of recognizing the result.
So while building a "proper" C:N ratio in the first place saves lots of time/effort, C:N ratio does not just 'happen'.
Way too many variables - in materials (nutrition/microbes) and methods and techniques and weather.
But a high % of people don't know what to do about an 'out-of-whack' ratio when decomposition rate is poor.
EVERYBODY knows the words to say: "add more green" or "add more brown" - but does saying that really help?
How many people can give practical advice on how much, and the best methods of doing that? Not many.
And how many people know that there are better, 'proven' ways to heat a pile than adding more greens/browns?
How many composters actually use a thermometer AND monitor heat effectively. What is 'effective monitoring'?
What is the 'recommended' temperature to turn a 1st turn - and why? Heated 2nd turn - and why?

I want answers. Can't find 'em from the 'experts' - so need to find out what works best on my own.
I make my own 'standards' - then try to 'hit' them - then test 'em over & over to prove them to my satisfaction.
Before I recommend them to anybody else to try. Yeah, by writing a long dissertation like this?
Probably only you, Val and cowgirl2 will get to the last sentence in this one...

Again, a disparity between scientific results, and translating them into practical terms - can be a frustrating issue...
So I'm attempting to initiate an easy-to-test standard for what "quality" compost is, for 'backyard' composting.
Percentage of humus - which science translates as: "organic material that will no longer decompose". Carbon.
That which remains (from decomposition) as a proven, permanent way to increase soil tilth/fertility.
Not just continuously 'throwing' decomposing organic matter at a garden - but making permanent progress to build soil.

There exists a % of humus in almost every well-constructed/maintained compost pile.
So dressing or amending soil with compost is a proven method of building quality soil - the question is how long that takes.
What is the result versus effort/time/cost? Most people don't care. Reckon I'm just wierd that way.

Appears from your questions, that you're entertaining the thought of collecting 'tea' from your piles?
I highly recommend considering such - seriously. A precious natural resource that should be utilized...

Robert

Thank you for taking so much time in answering my questions, I promise, no more.

I have no intention of collecting leachate, I had concerns about some possible safety aspects of your methods and just wanted a bit more clarification.

Once again thanks. I really do appreciate all the time you have taken.

Lloyd

Robert - question.

Just as an experiment, I'm thinking of trying your method next spring in one side of my bin. Of course it will be a much smaller scale and obviously I'll have to adjust some things (more on this later).

So my question is, before you went to this large operation, had you tried this on a smaller scale? Say something the size of your critter bin? Mine would be without the manure and compost tea part of it for now.

Disregard for right now all the extraneous stuff, I'm just wanting to know if the average home composter could do this compaction style of composting.

Val

Yes, Val -

This method was originally taught to me using a 4' x 4' x 4' Frame of 1" x 12" lumber and 2" x 4" lumber to join corner pieces.
Worked very well. Bricks were used to raise the Frame.

The original Frame that size was simply 4 corner pieces that would overlap for connecting (at center sides/ends - 8 screws) to end up with a 3' x 3' x 4' Frame to accommodate pile shrinkage, but keep pile height at 36" minimum.

Hubert made his piles 48" high minimum to start with, turning once a month, and harvested 1 month after the 3rd turn (4-month pile).

There was only one 10' x 5' pad (room to set up the Frame next to an existing pile - for turning-into) which was trenched around the entire perimeter for 'tea' collection with a deeper 'hole' in the front for a bucket to dip from.

He made his screening frame to fit on top of the 4' x 4' bin, so didn't matter if the frame was smaller later. He set the frame down on one side to water layers and tamp edges. His piles turned in 2 hours, start-to-finish.

If you already have one bin, you could make one 5' x 5' trenched pad next to it, and use a Frame for alternate turnings - using both methods with the same pile.

Hubert trenched his pile with 8" PVC pipe split in half lengthways (same for the 90 degree corners), with just plastic sheeting over the pad and lapped into the PVC trench.

He used a long-handled shovel-like device that was curved to fit the PVC to get pile material out of the pipe after turning. I think he made it, since he was a welder too. I just used my hands, which was easy because of the pipe, but Hubert had a bad back then.

Robert

Val, that post even confused me...

A few clarifications:

Eight pieces of 3' long 1" x 12" lumber or 1/2" plywood.
2 of the 3' long pieces are held together at ends with 2" x 4" lumber to make one corner section.
Construct 4 corner sections with the eight 1" x 12" pieces along with eight 12" pieces of 2x4 (2 to join each corner section. Looks like the photo of my Frame, but smaller, and with no extra side/end pieces added.

When the four corner sections are placed on the ground to make a 'box', the smallest 'box' the corners will make is a 3' square box. The largest 'box' that Frame will make is a 4' square with a 12" overlap of pieces. Or any dimension in between. If you use plywood pieces, you can get away with only a 6" overlap instead of 12" since plywood does not split as readily as regular lumber does.

Hubert trenched with a fiberglass pipe, but now thinwall PVC is recommended.

Hubert covered his pads with a treated canvas 'tarp' but now thick sheet plastic or heavy duty polyolifin tarp is recommended.

The Frame was set up in alternating positions on the 10' x 5' pad to accomplish 'back-and-forth' turning from the existing pile into the empty Frame beside it.

I remember now what Hubert's trench tool was. He took a narrow shovel (like a 'sharpshooter') and ground the tip down to fit the curvature of the pipe, when the shovel tip was at a 45 degree angle, then put a long handle on it. I didn't like using it because it 'bit' into the rough fiberglass surface - but that same tool would work fine to clean out a smooth PVC pipe.

Hopes that clarification helps.

Robert

Thanks Robert for the explanation.

I think I am going to try this compaction method as an experiment but I will be modifying it to fit with what I have now. I have a two sided concrete block bin similar to your "critter composter". I plan to make some sort of closure to the front so it's not open thus creating a square instead of an "U" shape.

I have a lot of leaves I've gathered this fall so I'm going to use that as my base. Wet the first layer down and compact. Then as I get things such as grass and kitchen waste, I'll add those along with more leaves wetting and compacting as I go. I might even buy some cheap dog food to add to the mix :-)

Then when I have a good amount, say 3 ft. high or so, I'll wait for a bit then turn over into the other side, maybe adding more dog food as I flip. Compact it down and wait again before flipping it back to the other side.

My main goal is just to see what happens. I'll likely make a big mess of things and screw it all up but I think it will also be kind of fun just to see if compacting it versus aerating it makes any difference to how I compost.

Thanks for being patient and explaining everything to me.

Val

PS - it really is the compaction of the whole process that fascinates me the most.

Hi Val -

Ooooeee - over several days, this got to be a 'monster'. Hope you can 'wade' through it.
You'd think I was writing a book...

The review at the end of this post is not intended as direction, but solely as a basis for communication.
This message is about YOUR pile (not mine), and I'll be happy to help support you in any way possible.
Sounds like you are going to attempt doing some things I may not have tried before - so would appreciate you keeping me "in the loop" as your experiment progresses.

Remember that the ONLY mechanical compaction is on the EDGES of the pile. Nowhere else. Otherwise you will DE-aerate material.
Yes, compacting edges DE-aerates those 3", but that compressed edge material does benefit from some 'air flow'.

Inside a 4-walled enclosure, vertical sides are a 'given', so the issue of 'well-behaved' pile sides is not a factor, but retention of internal pile moisture/temperature and total biomass could be - depending on type of material used to construct the front panel and how high you initilly build a pile to add layers later.

I'm not clear on the modification you propose to your bin, but sounds like it is intended to become a 3-sided enclosure with removeable wood slats in front, for access to turn it? Photo would be great, when you have it finished.

In any case, compacting the 3" EDGE of pile material as you layer (even inside an enclosure) is still a good idea. Even in a solid-sided bin, material will shrink (pull away) from the sides of the enclosure due to decomposition and moisture loss.

If the pile heats above 135F, an even greater moisture loss would occur, if the material were not 'tamped' down at the edges. What we are talking about here is moisture loss mostly due to osmosis or the "wicking effect" to the outsides and top. To the extent that the edges of a pile are loosely exposed to 'the elements', moisture loss from inside a pile is even greater. Tighter edges mean less moisture/heat loss. Checking different areas/depths of a pile with a moisture meter/sensor will provide valuable information as you experiment.

Way 'back when', any type of wire enclosure was 'the rage' for composting because somebody decided that fresh air should 'circulate' inside a moist pile.
Which turned out not to be true - since later studies proved that smaller/wetter/denser material particles (and therefore less "air flow"), decomposes faster, and even in a large pile of leaves, 'air flow' did not occur within internal material enough to make a difference to center CO2 buildup - and in outer edges of leaf piles, too much fresh air dries material too quickly and drastically slows down the decomposition process. Mother Nature 'mats together' organic material to fully decompose it. Forest floor.
When the outer edges of a wire bin are watered well and tamped down, then a piece of wood placed to cover the top, decomposition rate/heat inside the pile increases dramatically. Still easy to pull off the wire frame and turn the pile back into it.

Years ago when I had a loose pile of dead leaves waiting to be added, I'd level and wet the pile, add some blood meal, lightly wet again, then lay an old piece of 4' x 8' plywood over it and cover it with a tarp or plastic sheet. 2-3 days later, distance from plywood-to-ground decreased greatly, and microbes were hard at work - leaves were soft/limp.
Now I shred piles of leaves first, right along with branches/twigs, then do the same thing before layering into a pile, and you can hardly recognize leaf material in the pile ONE month later (at first turn). And humus levels increased by over 15% from previous percentage at the same measurement time.

Although you will be using the continuous-add (CA) method instead of the finish-to-harvest (FH) method, I still recommend scalping the top/sides of your pile first (but probably will not be able to reach the back side), especially on a first turn, since the material on sides/back/front will have been mechanically compressed. A garden rake is the perfect tool for 'blocking' edges.
Also, if you do not 'cap' the top of the pile with finished compost, some of the benefits of 'blocking' sides will be lost.
I usually 'cap' my FH Frame piles with a 2" layer of very wet aged horse manure (if I have it) or older compost. Have also successfully capped with a 3" layer of fresh grass clippings, and with dry grass clippings that were soaked overnight, then placed on the pile top with a light 'pat-down'.
Maybe a piece of plywood like I use to 'kick-start' leaves?
Won't know 'till you try...

Interesting concept of 'blocking' inside a solid enclosure, since the bin will tend to further insulate the pile. We know that insulated piles (versus self-supporting 'open' Framed piles or wire frame piles) do heat faster, get hotter and maintain heat longer - but, temps 'crash' much more quickly and usually require turning more often. I prefer a more 'dependable pace' since I work so many piles at once.
Hopefully you have past notes of heat times/temps, to compare with this type of experiment.

The main necessity is to turn (re-aerate) the entire pile before the pile oxygen supply becomes depleted too much (turning below 100F may severely reduce thermophilic microbe populations (material also cools during turns) to the point of having to 'rebuild' them during the 1st turn (2nd heat) - to obtain a sufficient 2nd heat in a reasonable time. If a pile cools below 105F before I can turn it, I always add sugars/carbs to 'fire it up' again, because I only have 30 days or so before the next scheduled turn. But that's just my production method to stay on schedule...

Will you be attempting a re-heat with each turn? How many times will you try to 'fire it'?
At some point volume (no more space to add much new material) will dictate that you 'finish off' the pile and start over.
I have done some study using the CA method, but mainly with my 'critter pile' - but CA is too slow for the production I need.

Do you use a compost thermometer? I have MUCH better success by regularly monitoring pile temps - particularly for knowing when to turn, and what materials need to be added to make the 1st turn material heat up sufficiently again.

Dog food by itself won't do the whole job - it's only a part of the equation. Adding sugar is another.
But thorough gas exchange (screening) and enough water are the real keys.
Dry molasses is both (sugars and carbs).
Dilute molasses syrup + pet food will do the 'fast-food' job too.
Pet food can be used whole, but works better/faster if pulverized first.
Initially, I put it in a bag used for sand (polyolefin) and crushed it with a heavy rubber mallet, 'cause I didn't use that much pet food years ago. If you're careful, the bag that the food comes in can be used. Now I just put a large bag through my shredder. That much lasts quite a while. Must be tightly containerized afterward, against moisture, to keep mold/mildew from 'eating' it, just from humidity. Still usable if moldy, but not nearly as effective.

Since your base is mostly leaves, recommend that you sprinkle a bit of 12-0-0 blood meal (or other nitrogen source) on each layer of leaves as you build your pile unless you have fresh greens to mix in.
And if you don't inocculate with fresh 'tea', remember to put a thin layer of old compost or good garden dirt on a couple of internal layers, to ensure a sufficient microbe population exists in a new pile.

Dry, old leaves don't 'wet down' well after making a dry layer. Way too much runoff and re-watering. Highly recommend soaking the leaves first (overnight).

I just fill plastic garbage bags with leaves, then add water and tie them closed, making sure the top stays up by setting a cinderblock next to the bag so the top gets pinched between the top of the cinderblock and a piece of lumber laid on it. Just step on the bag to 'squish' leaves into the water in the bag. Then just dump the whole kit'nkaboodle to layer. Down here we have lots of fresh oysters, so sometimes I pick up leaves in burlap bags - and just toss 'em into my vat of 'tea' to soak.

Good luck with your experiment !!

Quick re-hash of the theory, design and benefits of using the Framed pile technique:

1) Everything needed (microbe food/moisture/air) to accomplish the FASTEST-possible and most-EFFICIENT decomposition is assumed to be incorporated into pile material with the objective of 90-120 day start-to-finish timing with three turns at regular intervals. Bulky materials should be chopped/shredded first.

2) Piles are exposed on all sides for ease of visual inspection, taking temperature readings of any pile area, and internal pile sampling.

NOTE: It is recommended that framed piles be covered with a non-permeable material, since sunlight and no additional air or moisture should be needed.
If a cover is not used, a procedure called 'capping' (placing a very WET layer of dense material (such as aged manure or previously-finished compost) on the entire top of the pile) should be considered to reduce moisture loss, further 'insulating' the pile.

For piles constructed in arid climates where moisture loss is a critical issue, it is recommended that the top pile edge be 'crowned' as well as 'capped'. A crown is simply an extra layer of material around the outside top edge to ensure that water (rain or applied) does not run off the pile edges, but soaks into the center of the pile top.

3) Designed for use with a finish-to-harvest (FH) method, although it can be used with the continuous-add (CA) method until ready to finish.

4) Utilizes a size-adaptable and height-adjustable frame to ensure minimum pile height of 36" (as pile volume is reduced by decomposition, without addition of any new bulk material). The frame allows two or more 2nd or 3rd turn (volume-reduced) piles to be combined (to maintain sufficient vertical biomass) without size constraints of a structural containment.

NOTE: Frame is usually constructed of 16" wide cuts from one 4' x 8' sheet of 1/2" thick plywood and 8 (or more) 16" lengths of 2" x 4" lumber connected with deck screws.

5) Designed as an 'open' means of layering pile materials to ensure adequate watering and movement of materials without limitation of a raised structural containment.

6) Designed as an easy means of making and collecting compost 'tea' (utilize nutritional and microbe population values as soil/plant fertilizer and inocculation of piles.

7-A) EVERY LAYER must be well watered-in, and side edges MUST be 'tamped' (preferably with a garden rake) snugly to compact material sufficiently to maintain integrity of exposed material so no external support is necessary.

NOTE: The 'tamping' ('blocking') technique of compacting pile edges, is designed to keep the material 'well-behaved' with vertical sides - that need no support from any kind of structural enclosure, even when material is quite decomposed.

7-B) 'Tamped' construction of a vertically-walled pile increases compressive biomass at edges, helping to reduce moisture loss (the third most frequent issue that retards decomposition).

8) A procedure called 'scalping' should be used, with EVERY turn of the pile. This term means the initial removal of all 'tamped' material around the outside perimeter of the pile - including the top layer (although central pile material is NEVER compressed - decomposition of a sufficient biomass will cause compression naturally).
External pile material should be screened and placed/watered in the CENTER BOTTOM of the next pile first, to ensure adequate decomposition.

9) Screening of ALL pile material for ALL turns is recommended, through a mesh size of no larger than 3" x 3". A chain-link material (such as 'hurricane fence') is recommended, since 'bounce' is a beneficial action to move material through the screen.

10) An initial pile heat to a MINIMUM of 135F degrees for 5 continuous days at center, and turning (1st turn to 2nd heat) at a decreasing temperature of 105F -110F, and the (re-made 1st turn) pile attaining a minimum of 125F degrees for 3 days at center is recommended, in order to produce a well-decomposed product with a timely harvest.

FINISHED compost @ 120-DAY analysis - STANDARDS:
This is what I adjust my material mix to try and achieve.
If my compost tests within 5% +/- I'm pleased...
If not - I seek answers to stabilize pile consistency.
Mixing piles of KNOWN results achieves overall product consistency.

Standards expressed below are AFTER 3 extractions of compost 'tea' concentrate, which has relative nutritive value, but is reported in percentage of total liquid sample (16 oz.), and in pounds/acre inch.
Conductivity is higher in a 'tea' concentrate due to salts leached from compost material, but it is easier to mitigate salts in liquid than in compost solids.
Standards below have been developed from Routine+Micro soil laboratory results over a considerable period of time.

pH: 6.8 (slightly acid)
Conductivity: Less than 2,000 umho/cm (moderate)
Nitrate-N: 400.0 ppm (v.high)
Phosphorus: 450.0 ppm (moderate)
Potassium: 2,300.0 ppm (v.high)
Calcium: 2,500.0 ppm (high)
Magnesium: 900.0 ppm (v.high)
Sulfur: 300.0 ppm (v.high)
Sodium: 900.0 ppm (moderate)
Iron: 8.0 (high)
Zinc: 18.0 ppm (v.high)
Manganese: 10.0 ppm (v.high)
Copper: 1.5 ppm (high)
% Total Organic Material: 97.8
Humus %: 8
Recommended fertility additions: NONE
Detailed Salinity Test Standards (saturated paste extract)
pH: 7.0
Conductivity: Sodium: 500.0 ppm (25.250 meq/L
Potassium: 1,000.0 ppm (27.000 meq/L)
Calcium: 175 ppm (9.000 meq/L)
Magnesium: 150.0 ppm (12.500 meq/L)
SAR: 8.0
SSP: 30.000

If you collect compost 'tea' and have had the effluent analyzed, I'll be happy to share those Standards with you as well.

Robert

Thanks Robert.

You sure do know how to make a short story long :-)

I'm going to work on the details of your explanations and see if I can work it out in my brain. Right now I'm experiencing information overload LOL

Val

Robert, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to copy your posts....they must be saved and cherished. Really, like Val, I need to take time to assimilate all your comments. Whether I ever try on a smaller scale what you do is irrelevant....there's a font of knowledge and information to be had. Perhaps I can adapt your methods in some way.

Robert - this is quite impressive, and like some of the others - i'm trying to get a better grasp on the abundance of information given. I would love to see a step by step pictorial with documentation on your methods, from start to finish. I don't have the equipment that you and Lloyd have, but I certainly have space for a fairly large composting setup. I'm inspired, and can't wait to receive more education from you on this method, that is completely different from the usual way that most people compost.

EG

Thanks for the compliment, EG - as you already know, I do 'struggle' to make my verbose communication readable.

What is quite impressive to me, is your blog site.
How did you do that? Is it expensive? Does it take a long time? How extensive is the 'learning curve'?

There's a post on the forum that Val started, in which she is suggesting I do precisely what you have done, so I don't bore folks with long dissertations over and over on various message posts - but can refer them to a central site.

PLEASE go to that post "OT: Robert (soilguy)" and share your experience/knowledge, and let me 'pick your brain' a bit?

Robert

There's a post on the forum that Val started, in which she is suggesting I do precisely what you have done, so I don't bore folks with long dissertations over and over on various message posts - but can refer them to a central site.

Robert...Robert....Robert....nowhere did I say you were boring people. In fact, I distinctly said I was worried about your health (e.g. carpal tunnel). You make me sound like a shrew :-)

Val

Sorry, Val - you're right, 'boring' was not a descriptive you used - 'twas a momentary case of mistaken identity - hopefully forgivable - no inference to shrew-like behavior intended.

Although come to think of it, in some of your previous posts, you appear to have displayed some good shrew-like traits such as persistence and very 'active' (as in high-mentality) temperament; responding somewhat agressively to 'territorial intrusion' (by people who insist on repeating themselves).

Obviously, Shakespeare did not appreciate the creature...gave it a 'bad rap'.
Poor thing - the only rodent born with 5 claws and loses it's teeth as it gets older -
no wonder it 'acts up' sometimes...Toothache and carpal tunnel syndrome.
Hmmm, sounds like I may have some shrew-like traits too...

Robert

Why does the shrew get such a bad rap?
These little guys are kinda cute I think...

(click to enlarge)
{{gwi:319929}}From Drop Box

I believe this is a Tiny Shrew. The dog and/or cat was "playing" with this little guy at our house in Alaska. It was a daily occurence for about a month the first summer we were there. I'd grab the little guys (ok, sometimes the dog would spit 'em out into my hand) and put them outside the fence. I don't know if they finally died or moved out... but I didn't see any the next year.

Ok, I have do have an on-topic question...

I have almost 2 dozen bales of straw right now. It will have a purpose in the spring, but at the moment it's just sitting here. I was thinking I could build a compost bin with it for the winter. It would be fully enclosed (and somewhat insulated I presume) and be about 5'x5' and I think 4' tall (2 bale widths, however big that is...).

I have access to quite a bit of horse manure nearby. I can also get spoiled hay from the same place. Most likely the manure I would get this time of year would be quite fresh (as the older pile could be frozen) and mixed with paper bedding.

So, I'm thinking I may go get a couple loads of manure and put it in my straw bin. Should I mix hay in as well? I would cap/cover the top with either hay or straw. Would it work just with the 2 ingredients? My goal is to be able to use it when building my new flower beds in the spring. Any advice? Does this sound like a good idea?

Greenbean, I think you could certainly use straw bales to build a compost bin. Someone on here (Len, maybe) used straw bales to build garden beds.

Val

Yes, greenbean08, the bales will make a very nice bin, as long as it does not matter that they may smell a bit - and pile decomposition will probably affect contacted hay also.
Assume NO air flow, so ensure that material is 'fluffy'.

My advice is to use a garden rake, so that:
1) you don't have a mess to clean up when you remove the bales in spring (i.e., pile sides will stand on their own;
2) further insulate the piles by compressing ALL exterior 3" of material as you build it in 4"-6" layers.

Have never composted in Alaska, but sometimes in S.Dakota and Ohio, I thought I was there...

Set the first level of bales with rope/twine around them to keep them from moving apart as you compress sides with the rake. In this case perhaps you should point the rake tines inward toward the center of the pile so you don't 'snag' bales. I know that to be a PITA.

Put the next layer on, filling the side depressions up a bit higher, then tamp them firmly ALL the way around. You can read about the 'why' of this in earlier posts (somewhere on this composting forum - although such may be on page 2 or 3 by now. Or ask, and I'll reiterate...

It's going to be a LONG winter, and assume that you are not going to turn this pile 'till spring. The pile will likely run out of oxygen before it runs out of food for decomposing microbes, so again - fluffy as you can make it.

In that case, I recommend that you mix the manure with the old hay first, or at least layer each in 2"-3" layers - whichever is easiest for you. I use a tractor front-loader bucket to mix those two materials first - saves a bunch of time IF you have a 'backboard' to push against.

LIGHTLY (but thoroughly) water every layer BEFORE using the garden rake to tamp down edges. If you see water running out from under the pile - stop watering and put on another layer. Do not tamp any other part of the pile.

If not mixed first, and hay is to be layered-on, I'd soak the old hay in a vat overnight first, and fork it on the pile - unless it is already moist, hay is difficult to wet-down as a layer, and can be the cause of a pile drying out too much, particularly if it gets quite hot.

If it were me, I'd put strong material across the top to keep out snow/ice, since a warm, insulated pile will cause such to melt into the pile, which could make it anaerobic by driving out too much air. Depends on how hot it gets, and how much moisture.

In the northern climes, I always covered my piles in winter. But then, I was crazy enough to turn them on 'good' winter days and add microbe food for a re-heat.
I simply wanted good compost by early spring - to get it into the ground before earliest planting.

Hopefully Lloyd will 'chime in' too, since he has LOTS more cold-weather composting experience than I do.

Robert

Robert,
Thank you for the reply. I was hoping that it would work as a bit of a modified version of your process. I actually live in Colorado now, we moved last winter, so as long as the pile doesn't freeze, I will be able to turn it, as we have some beautiful sunny winter days here. I would expect it to stay thawed as we don't seem to have terribly long stretches of really cold weather. My "regular" bin is not frozen, even after very cold temps here last week, and was warm and steamy the other day.

I've never done a straw bale bin, thought of it, just never done it.

But if I was going to here are some thoughts in no particular order:

Standard small square bale is 14 inches high by 18 inches wide. Length is adjustable but most around here do a 3 foot bale. We use mostly plastic twine (2 strings per bale) versus the old jute stuff which means we have to take the twine off before running the bale through any kind of mechanical shredding device or through the manure spreader.

I'd use some piping into the bottom to allow for air to be drawn into the middle of the bin as the heated air arose convectively from the pile.

I am not a fan of layering materials, packing/tamping materials or watering it to the point of runoff. Trying to get the materials well mixed is always my goal although it is not always easy to do due to the timing of available materials.

I'd also probably try to line the inside of the bales with some cardboard, although I am not sure why.

I'd build the walls three bales high (3 X 14 inches) and heap the material way higher in the center because of compaction over the winter.

Snow in my part of the world should act as a slow release rain on the top of the pile over time (especially on the sunny days where the OAT isn't quite so low).

Mice, possibly rats, would love this setup so that would also be an issue for some people.

Lloyd

I have 23 bales. Each side is 2 bale-lengths, so I'm one shy of being able to go 3 high. Stacked sideways gives me 38" high (I measured this time since it's still daylight).

The straw is bales with the plastic twine. The hay I can get is loose. I can mix it somewhat, but I have no hydraulics to help me. It's me and my fork.

I'm not terribly worried about the rodents. I built a lasagna-type bed for my upcoming raspberry patch that will already make a lovely home for the little creatures if they're moving in (I had that thought right after I finished it). This straw-bale bin will be in the back fence, so any critters would have to deal with the 2 big dogs that hang out there.

I would probably be better off covering it. We don't seem to have regular snowfall (only my 2nd winter, so I don't really know), but we do have very drying winds. They tell us to water trees in winter if there's no snow cover because the wind will dry them and kill them.

Well, I have to go to a Christmas party now...
I'll be back later...

greenbean08,

Would like to 'dig' a bit deeper into this subject with you. Think it would be a 'neat' project to keep in touch with, if you're 'game' to make it happen.

So have a few questions:
Do you think that it is possible to turn such a pile during the winter, or do you intend to just 'let it sit' until spring?
Makes a difference in how I'd recommend constructing the straw bale enclosure, and methods that might work to keep the pile 'alive' longer if it was not going to get turned.

Think about this question of turning, because to effectively create gas-exchange manually, will necessitate a side-by-side place to enclose it (and you don't have sufficient bales to construct two enclosures without incorporating the back fence into the design) - or turn it out, then handle the material back into the straw bale bin via screening.

That's a serious PITA during a CO winter. Unless you do something unique - and I have an idea...to make this a pile that does NOT need to be turned all winter - and maybe won't need to be covered, either. Yet STILL have material ready to plant with come early spring.

Do you own a 20" compost thermometer? If not, are you willing to obtain one?

Let's chat about your intentions for a spring garden, too...How big is it, and how will you be using the finished compost on/in it?

Robert

I should be able to turn the pile, but whether or not it were turned at the "proper" time, could be a question, depending on the weather and the length of the window of time that would constitute "proper". Last winter, we had many nice sunny days, it's mostly a matter of how windy it is, if I can stand to be outside for long.

I would think to move the pile during turning, I could remove a layer of bales and re-build the pile next to it's original location. If I only build it 2 bale-widths high, I would have a few extra to use then as well. Screening all the material as you do might be a bit tougher to add into that mix though. I would have to be able to turn it all in one day and have it enclosed to keep the dogs out. Otherwise I'll be living with manure-kisses.... not nice. I would probably need to cover it somewhat if using fresh manure since my neighbors are close by.

I do not have a thermometer, but I could obtain one.

The spring garden: I am converting some of the lawn in front of my house and along a retaining wall to flower beds. I'm still working out my exact plan, but at this point, I'm thinking I will have to bring in some soil to correct some negative drainage near the house and to create a bit of a swale and re-direct the water from the 2 downspouts near my front porch for some rainwater harvesting (when it actually rains that is...).

I plan to use a layer of newspaper to smother the grass and I should have a stockpile of coffee grounds, the compost and the straw, to layer on the area early in the spring. I plan to use the straw in "pads" (soaked in water before I put them down) so maybe it won't all blow away. I am wintersowing the seeds (my first try) so I think it's possible I'll have seedlings pretty early.

That's pretty much my plan at this point. I was thinking I'd just put down the manure in the layers before I got all these straw bales. It may or may not be "properly" composted, but I can get aged manure as well. After all the talk of pathogens on another thread, I'd rather know it got hot somewhere along the way... It's not for food crops, but I'll still be working with it...

I think I'm aiming for having useable material in about 4 months if I can.

Thanks!

Robert: Could you please mail me one of your compost slabs? Man, that looks like good stuff!

Sorry for the interruption, I couldn't help myself, carry on guys.

Rdak - Robert has suspiciously ignored all requests for one of those slabs. :-)

Val

Mail won't take it, but tell you what, rdak - a finished block weighs about a ton dry weight - truck-ship a stout 3' x 4' x 4' palletized container down here, round-trip prepaid, and I'll load it up and send it back to ya full.

One of these days I'm gonna have a website up, then I'll take a prime pile and put a quart of it into ziplock bags and send 'em off to the first hundred folks who visit my new site and want to compare this stuff with what they make. Until you see it, feel it and smell it, you won't believe how good it is. Just 'whiff' a handful of if it near a tomato plant, and it'll double blossoms the next day in anticipation... x;-))

Robert

One ton? Wow, what I could do with that.

Anyway, I wish I lived closer to you Robert. I'd buy some in a heartbeat.

I'd love to make some compost tea with a little of that stuff. Maybe if you offer little quantities over the mails, people could get it that way? I know I'd order some.

"Until you see it, feel it and smell it, you won't believe how good it is. Just 'whiff' a handful of if it near a tomato plant, and it'll double blossoms the next day in anticipation"

My birthday's coming up in a bit hint hint hint :)))

Seriously, wouldn't compost make a GREAT gift....I recall an article in a gardening magazine about Princess Someone, who had a beautiful garden in Belgium? Netherlands? Anyway, as she explained in the article, her husband asked her what she wanted for her birthday, and she told him she wanted a truckload of manure.

Yes, lynxe - I think you and rdak are right - even quality compost might make a good gift - especially for that 'special someone' who has 'everything'...??

I make compost 'tea' which requires really good compost to start with (kinda like a sourdough starter for bread). Hmmm, maybe I should find a different anology for that comparison?

Anyway, I'll have my new website 'fired up' soon, and am thinking about offering a quantity for folks to make 'tea' with. My stuff will include printed microbe population counts verified by a professional microbe lab, which would certainly 'set it apart' from competition, eh?

What do y'all think of that idea, and what quantity (sizes) would be appropriate for most 'tea-makers'?

Lots of folks buy 'compost' in bags from 'box' stores, to make 'tea' with - and in many cases the 'starter' used might be deficient - and they would never know...I have never seen a microbe population count on a bag of compost for sale in a store.
The website below is one I often refer folks to on this subject:

Robert

What do y'all think of that idea, and what quantity (sizes) would be appropriate for most 'tea-makers'?

Being a 'lawn guy' (but just a lurker here), I feel the standard application rate is oz's or lbs. per 1000 square feet.

I'm with Princess Want Some Manure.....

The yard guys were next door two days before Christmas doing a final clean up on the neighbor's lawn. I realized they were dumping NICE, CHOPPED leaves into a trailer to be hauled off so I ran outside and asked them to dump the loads from the backyard into my flower beds.

SCORE! Best Chrsitmas present I got!

My poor husband just doesn't get it...
Him: "What do you want for Christmas?"
Me: "Um, there are three good piles of chopped stuff along the curbs in the neighborhoods, honey, and it is FREE! Plus, if we drive around we can find some more!"
Him: "Ugh, Now what do you REALLY want for Christmas?"

Me (thinking to myself) "Well, could I trade you for the guy who was gathering the stuff out from OUR curb one day before I could get to it? And geeze, he had his own wooden trailer thingy, too...

"My poor husband just doesn't get it..."

If it isn't written down in big bold letters the odds of us "men" getting it are slim to nil and slim has left town.

Here is what my DW would do, "Honey, if you bought yourself one of those chipper/shredder thingies and a trailer, do you think it might be possible to gather up a few bags of leaves for me?"

Works every time, I get toys tools, she gets leaves, AND I get to go to work and say WooHoo, I got a chipper/shredder AND a trailer and all I had to do was get her some slimy moldy old leaves for Christmas!

WAY TO GO, LLOYD !!

My DW doesn't like leaves, so I told her - "...If I had a chipper/shredder thingy and a trailer, I could get my composting done faster, and maybe get more things done around the place..."
Voila - out 'pops' a new shredder/shipper for next Christmas, and a new trailer for my next birthday. AND a new truck the following year !!

Job jar is STILL full...and says she needs a new pencil sharpener. Guess what she DIDN'T get for Christmas?

BTW, TheSoilGuy website is up - barely, and still a long way to go before it actually DOES anything - and lots of design changes to come - but kept my promise to Val...
Hope to have the email working next week.
Val - check the photo caption...

Robert

Lloyds methods of dealing with lists of "things to do".

Add all the things I've already done (and probably like to do) and then scratch them out.

List might look like this:

Laundry
Dishes
Vacuum
Dust
shopping
wash the truck
turn the compost
Have coffee up town
Stop in at The Lanes
Pick-up parts for tractor
Grease the swather
Change oil in the tractor

Holy mackeral was I busy today, I'll try and get to those other things tomorrow, can you write them down for me?

Lloyd

Ho Ho Ho !!! Good, Lloyd -
Gotta try that - may not survive, but will be fun...

The "Job Jar" routine goes something like:
Pick - Awwww, can't do that one 'cause of "...."
Pick - Awwww, can't do that one today, 'cause you haven't...."
Pick - Awwww, can't do this one either, 'cause..."
Eventually get to one that I want to do.
Which of course, is at the bottom of her list...

Point? That's HER "Job Jar" - I have my own.
I do get a lot done - the 'really' important stuff -
Like: Turn a compost pile, water the garden, harvest veggies, shoot/skin a duck, catch/fillet a fish...
Gotta eat, right?
Besides, I'm supposed to be retired.

Dang, cold front comin' through tonight -
May be down to 59F in the morning.
Might have to wear a jacket to pick the ripe tomatoes.
Shucks.
Well, that's OK - brings more ducks down this way.

Robert

Some discussion on recent posts regarding pile moisture control has occured, so addressing this issue with regard to the techniques I use, to try and avoid confusion between my methods and advice, and somebody else's.

At this time, not going to discuss pile insulation properties, drainage, or forces that move internal-to-external gas (vapor).

Serious composters agree that moisture retention in compost pile material is critical. To the degree that composting material is not sufficiently moist (to promote high microbial activity), decomposition is restricted.

After watering a pile, most composters think of pile moisture retention as mostly relative to external air flow (that airflow is needed)...And that well-aerated pile material can get 'too wet'.
I disagree, and those two distictions separate my methodology from the 'accepted' perception.
The proof I offer to validate my distinctions, is the high quality of my harvested product, and the high speed by which the decomposition process is completed.

Air flow is relative to moisture loss only to the degree that drier air can penetrate into the pile from the outside, and studies have shown that such air flow pressure is minimal - to only a few inches, even with coarse pile material and strong winds. My piles suffer external drying effects from wind only 1/4" to 1/2".

An exposed pile (no support structure) or 'open' structure (such as wire-sided cage) are subject to much greater moisture loss, depending on the coarseness and natural compaction of materials used, and also relative to square footage of non-insulated ground contact.
A pile built on sand will lose moisture more rapidly than one built on clay, and very little loss if on a solid surface.

Similarly, covering a pile with a non-permeable membrane (such as a tarp or plastic sheeting) is only effective to the degree that it reduces flow from the inside of the pile, exhausting TO the perimeter. Would have to be very tight, to hold moisture in.

An enclosed pile (hat/straw bales, wood, cinderblock, etc.) is more protected from external air flow, but perimeter drying of material against the enclosure structure still occurs, causing an ever-widening gap that will permit even greater moisture loss. Since there's very little airflow in a 4-sided enclosure - how do you account for that phenomenon? Think about it. It's not caused by external air flow, but rather shrinkage from decomposition.

All that being said, I think that composters have been thinking "backward" about this issue for centuries. Yeah, I know - but hear me out.

I have found that external air flow (into a pile by wind force, i.e., pressure), is the smaller part (osmosis or the 'wicking effect) related to the total effect of internal pile moisture loss.

I take a 'deeper' view, based on my extensive moisture testing, to demonstrate that the technique of 'tamping' pile edges significantly reduces moisture loss - by creating a "barrier" as PART of the pile. My piles do not need additional watering between turns, even in drought (arid) conditions (which my location has suffered for more than 6 months to date).

You can see in my photo on this thread, how the vertical-sided piles stand without any support - because of this same compaction technique. The benefit of internal pile moisture control is actually a by-product of the 'layer-tamping' technique, as is heat 'insulation'.

I consider the major issue of moisture loss to be caused by movement of gasses FROM inside the pile TO the outside external edges, mostly by internally-produced (pressure) heat by produced microbe population expansion. Not by wind or osmosis from wind effect. Heat causes gas to expand and rise. Insulation of the pile to attain higher heat for a longer period is another benefit of 'tamping'.

The management technique I employ to restrict moisture loss is nature's way. As a pile material decomposes, it 'settles'. Natural compaction due to gravity and reduction of matter by decomposition, is already a part of the composting process.
I simply take it a step farther (than other researchers before me - that I know of) by ignoring the generally-accepted admonition not to compact ANY compost material.
However, I do take steps to ensure that previously compacted (edge) material is sufficiently aerated and moved to pile bottom center on the next turn, identified in my earlier discussion about 'scalping' a pile.

Moisture loss in my piles is minimal, due mostly (in my opinion) by 'snugly' compacting the outer 3" perimeter of a pile - to restrict moisture from moving from the inside to the outside of a pile.

I NEVER compact internal material. Only perimeter.

Also experimenting with placing a layer of 'tight' material (such as aged manure or pre-soaked grass clippings) on the TOP of a flat pile called 'capping'.

Compacting external sides, develops a more highly-controlled internal composting environment to effectively retain moisture and air in pile materials, and produces high-quality (higher humus percentage) product, faster than anybody else I know of.

Am gathering evidence and working with a couple of measuring device manufacturers to utilize current gas measurement/movement technology, and develop a scientific method for using it, to prove my hypothesis.

The Frame Technique of 'tamping' sides works very well in wire and solid-side bins, too. Consider experimenting with it. Fact is, sides of a bin don't support the sides of pile material after just a few days of 'settling' anyway.

But I'll tell you up front - if a pile is not LAYERED when built/rebuilt - compacting pile sides will NOT work as effectively as it could.
As soon as the composting section of my website is built, then all the details of the Frame Technique will be available in one place, with photos, which will be much easier to understand.

Robert