Overanalize much? His windshield was frozen over for Pete's sake, that means it was below freezing (or did the Hilsch Vortex cause that also). Water freezes when it is below freezing temperatures. No mystery here people.

That's correct metal, there was ice and that fact just gets ignored. Mownie, I disagree that the low pressure area could form in the center of the radiator. With such a large "volume" of air the high pressure that forms would remain high pressure until it has somewhere to go to expand. In this case the low pressure area would have to be behind the radiator and would be larger than the area that was compressed in the first place or it wouldn't be low pressure. Lets say you have 10'x10' room full of foam pillows.(AKA air molecules)You cram these pillows into a room that is 2'x2'. (It gets hot from compression) The pillows (air) in the 2x2 room has the "potential" to absorb as much heat as previously made when compressed if released and allowed to expand back to it's original size. This heat absorption would not take place in the 2x2 room. It would be in a large low pressure room where the pillows were released. Like I said before any heat absorption that did occur at the very trailing edge of the radiator would have been offset by the heat already produced by the aforementioned compressed air. (Conservation of energy...that heat has to go somewhere.)
All in all I do not think that at the air pressures we are talking about the heating and cooling effects of expansion and contraction are anywhere near enough to produce enough BTUs to do anything even if you could isolate their effects.
...............The windshield was frozen and that's the one fact that can't be ignored................... Because the temperature was freezing the radiator froze as well.

"at the end of the trail us pointe heads may find out that this has or had nothing to do with a battery at 16 degrees less than 40% charge? "

It doesn't. But in your original post, you also asked/said this:

"I would think wind chill would also play a part if stored outside? "

Wind chill never has and never will have anything to do with what the actual temperature is. The water in your battery, radiator, dog dish, etc. will not freeze until the temperature causes it to. Wind chill is not, and never will be temperature.

We really should send the radiator scenario to Mythbusters. I'm betting they could spend a few episodes' worth of time playing around with air pressure in front of and behind the radiator, varying humidity levels, varying radiator designs, varying anything-else-you-could-come-up-with, and still not duplicate water freezing in a radiator when the ambient temperature is above freezing. At least not at any pressures/densities/humidity levels/etc. that would EVER occur with the aforementioned combination of road speed, ambient temperature, and/or low pressure air behind the radiator.

The original frozen radiator scenario posted in this thread is simply not the first and only time someone has driven a vehicle down the road with nothing but plain water in the cooling system at whatever the ambient temperature and humidity happened to be at the time.

;-)

On the other end of the spectrum is another similar discussion. The Space Shuttle. I have always been told that the heating on reentry was caused by friction of the air rushing past the Space Shuttle as it encounters the earth's atmosphere upon reentry. Now they are saying that the heating is caused by...guess what??...air pressure that builds up in front of the shuttle on the shock wave caused by going way over supersonic speeds......

and as she nervously looked into her rear view mirror, wondering if the person flashing their lights at her was a madman or not.She didn't realize it was only rcmoser just wondering if his battery was about to freeze...

Mmmmm just the other day freind said his battery frozen on the way to work???? How could that be, it started the old 68 ford truck and was less than a year old (walmark cheap battery) He drove a few miles at road speed pulled in to get coffee and a fat pill. Guess what his truck would not start, just click, now the 9 degrees wind blowing down the radiator whipping around the engine bay had nothing to do with it nor did the temp. It just frozen solid from being a cheap A@@ battery, had nothing to do with being discharged, well below freezing, nothing to do with it setting outside all night, and three the CFW while going down the road? even though the battery was not frozen from being outside all night and started the truck and the alt. charging the battery while driving down the CAFR at 9 degrees.

And just the other morning at 32 to 33 degrees on the way to work there was NO ICE on the road or in the mud puddles, and snow was melting, But when I rounded the Big A@@ water tank on the back side where the water was tricking across the road guess what was on the payment ICE. Could it of been the wind or lack of on that side of the tank????? and why did the ICE only form on that side of the water tank and not on the other side. O I see it was well below freezing on the other side and well above freezing on the other side a few feet away!

Nope, not worried about my batteries, oil changes, air filters, radiators, or ANY thing else. you see this Had nothing to do with winter, cold, ICE, batteries, Climite change, gas prices, NASA, the price of rice in china, or the dirt farm I thinking about buying, nor the fact that I don't have car payments, house payments, credit card payments, LT tractor payments, or any payments. Old Rc Moser has learned alot in the 59 some odd years without the silver spoon in my mouth or a liberial brain wash at college.

Tom : From now on I'll keep eye Peeled for Flashing lights with a completely different Rational lol :)

Anyone who does not think Wind Chill has any factor on batteries or anything other then human flesh.Just does not have a clue what wind chill is.I live in the midwest flat prarie land.Out in the country with nothing to stop the wind.It gets cold out here. But in the near by towns where the wind just does not blow like it does out here because there are buildings to stop the wind.You have a lot less cold weather problems.

If wind chill has no affect on batteries.Then why do we have battery failures after strong winds in the winter?Meaning if we do not park are vehicals out of the wind.If there in a garage no heat or insulation it starts but if its out in the cold its a dead battery.Or even just parking it next to a building or covering blocking the wind with a canvas helps.

I have seen large equipment start when its cold.But put it on a transport trailer and haul it 50 miles in the same temp.Then try to start it and its a no go.

So all the scientific BS just does not fly.Windchill does affect batteries and mechanical things.

Johndeere and all of you believers in wind chill effect on inanimate objects - I suggest you visit the Wickipedia site, it has an excellent explanation of wind chill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill

Can we say 200 posts in this thread?

It is truly amazing that someone can call "something" they do not understand "scientific BS". Farmers use more real science everyday than the average person and they of all people should realize that.
As to the original post. Nobody ever said that "windchill" doesn't do "anything". What we said was: 1)Windchill is a term created to describe the feeling of cold wind at various speeds on human skin. 2)More importantly and probably the crux of the matter. Wind itself does not bring a temperature of an object down lower than the temperature of the wind itself. Where a lot of misunderstanding seems to have occurred is right there, involving the winds cooling effect. Of course wind brings the temp of objects down rapidly and far quicker than the same object sitting in a barn or out of the wind. If the air temp has been 34 degrees all day and then drops to 12 degrees at night all objects will be cooling down at different rates according to various factors. Tractor "A" out in the middle of a windy field cools rapidly down to 12 degrees in the 15 mph wind because of the wind's rapid cooling effect. Tractor "B" sitting in the middle of an unheated but otherwise tightly built barn cools down way, way slower because of many other factors. The barn and all objects in there including the earth it is sitting on radiate their heat into the air by convection, radiation, and etc etc. They do not have the rapidly moving air to cool them down except on the very outside "skin" or "siding" of the barn which by the way cools down
quickly. Tractor "C" on a flatbed truck transport cools down to the air temperature the quickest of all because of the hwy speed air blowing over it. (What you will not see however is tractor 'C" cooling down lower than the ambient temperature.)
So why does the tractor "B" in the barn start and the tractor "A" in the field not start? If you could measure the "core" temperature of the tractor you would find that the field tractor is as cold as the wind temp through and through as long as the wind kept blowing. The barn tractor is considerably warmer because of ground heat and slower heat loss because of protection from the wind inside the barn. In summary the wind definitely cools objects quickly. No question about that. The wind alone does not however cool objects down below the air temperature itself.

Ray : I think you are trying to offer a Olive Branch (Maybe) "The Wind alone does not however cool objects down below air temperature itself". Yes we all (already know that) I think we do ? .. well at least most of us ! But what I was "originally was suggesting was that "Extreme Colder" Prevailing (Northern) Winds could and do "Very Quickly" change the "Current" (Ambient) Air Temperature. Yes and you are Probably correct that I was previously describing Ice Formation , who cares if you call it Black Ice ! Also further Wind Chill in Theory and Real Time was as I illustrated a Human Issue initiated via the Military from Hypothermia Related Studies of Human Exposure to Extreme Cold Conditions within the Arctic. I agree with you on that . But you have "Finally" concluded that Cold Winds can have an effect on causing less than Optimum Effect on Stored Batteries , perhaps even to the Ultimate Effect (freezing) . The last time I recall Cold Weather was normally brought into effect from Prevailing Winds bring into Place a Colder Ambient Air Front . Wow that only took less than 200 Posts...perhaps less worries of Supersonic speed and more attention to Northern Clippers would have put you wise to things that took Rcbe and JD most likely less than 59 Yrs to Understand , but you over 60 Posts to Comprehend ! We all have our perspectives and life's experiences , so why is it that you cannot agree to disagree , Self Esteem Issues Dude ? Have to look down your Nose at other's to find satisfaction in your own position in Life .. Yes I 'am certainly finding you very Entertaining Indeed ! Just not all that Amusing !!

My diagnosis is CABIN FEVER.
Take a BIG dose of artificial sunlight and call me in the morning.

I could use some warm sunlight for sure. We don't have the snow or ice that they have in the eastern USA but we have sure been getting rain. Double the yearly average in 2009 and well on our way to new records in 2010. It's cold too. My yard is like a soaked sponge. Can't do anything outside. Short days...man I hate this time of year and cold wet weather. Give me a sunny 75 degree day, no wind or just a gentle breeze, low humidity, and my green grass that needs mowing. I'm happy. Check the picture in the link. That's what I'm talking about. (not mine)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:314267}}

Well, I hate to add any more salt to the already massive wound, but before me I have an Aircraft engine ground run ambient temperature/Dew point icing chart. when running aircraft jet engines ICE may form with temps. up to 46 degrees with dew point 5 to 30 with visible moisture in the air. Which means the air movement at a rappert pace (wind) can and will cause Ice to form in air inlets, therefore the ant-icing system has to be activated. So if wind can't cause moisture to freeze above 32 degree then why is there a big warning in test run and flight books? Also top alcohol dragsters have the same problem on cool nights well above freezing.I guess you could call these BIG Hilsch Vortexes!!!!!!!!!!

I also ran fighter engines in hush houses in these same temperatures/dew points well above freezing and has seen my own snot freeze on my mustash due to the rapent amount of air flow inside these facilities when jet engines are operating.

IMO there is big difference between liquid water and water residue or visuable moisture in the air on a surface, naturally liquid water would take longer to loose it heat (not in a design to cause rapent heat loose like a RADIATOR) vs. thin layers or visuable moisture like frost or that nasty word that started all of this black ice.

I know this is not a good comparision to the topic, but to say water can't freeze above 32 degree is BS in certain coditions.

rc, The icing effect you are talking about take place because of a great pressure drop. That fact has been at the center point of this discussion. In an airplane engine that pressure drop takes place in reverse (for lack of a better explanation) Piston engines pull a vacuum on the intake manifold. At small throttle openings the outside humid air/fuel mixture is sucked into the manifold and encounters the extremely low pressure of that vacuum. There it expands rapidly and the fuel vaporizes both of which soak up heat. Under certain conditions this pressure drop can form ice if enough moisture is present. The effect is exactly how an air conditioner works to "make cold" on a hot summer day. Only the high pressure refrigerant going through an expansion valve into an evaporator is where the cooling effect takes place. In the case of your radiator freezing we had an extended discussion about how this same effect might cause the freezing you spoke about experiencing. The problem with that effect happening to your radiator was that 1) There is very little pressure difference between the front of the radiator and the back of the radiator. Also the heating and cooling effects that could happen even in theory would be self canceling so to speak. Freezing just doesn't happen from minor pressure drops like those on a radiator at typical highway speeds. So anyway, What I was saying all along was that a radiator or whatever object that is out there in the wind is cooled down to the temperature of the wind itself and not cooler under normal conditions. Your windshield was already frozen so your radiator was so close to freezing that it wasn't long before it froze from the wind which was below freezing. (That below freezing air is what froze your windshield before you left)

After reading your post again I realize you are speaking of jet engines. Not trying to be facetious here. Anyway the entire cooling effect from either source is caused by pressure drops and evaporation. Compress air...it gets hot.(AKA a diesel engine) Release air pressure and it soaks up heat. (gets cold)Evaporate water it soaks up heat. Condense a gas to liquid it gets hot. Same effect whether in a piston engine, jet engine, or a/c.

I also thought of something else when I use to have outside temp gauge in my truck. I noticed that on top of hills the temp. was what was said on the news and and the bottom of hills (cold air sinks) the temp. could be 2 to 4 degrees lower. This maybe some of the problem when most of us go by weather reports of temp. if very well could of been below freezing at a lower location.

"I have seen large equipment start when its cold.But put it on a transport trailer and haul it 50 miles in the same temp.Then try to start it and its a no go. "

I'm in the frigid, unshielded, windy Midwest as well. North Dakota. ;-)

I'm a mechanic at a rental dealer, so getting equipment started in cold, windy weather is a daily occurrence for me. I don't go out to fire up a tractor once in a while to move snow or something similar....it's every day. Several types of equipment, several times per day. After twenty or so years worth of doing it, I can pretty much tell you when I get to work at 7 am what stuff is going to start, and what isn't. If the machinery has sat without running for a few hours, it never makes a bit of difference how windy it is....or isn't. If it'll start at zero degrees, then it'll start at zero degrees with a twenty mph wind.

The end-users tend to be more aggravated when it's windy and they're trying to get something going, but that's because the wind chill is affecting them...not the machine.

There have been times we've left stuff running while it's riding down the highway on the semi, but it's not because the ride is making it *colder*. It's simply because we know that even though it's below zero, (often WELL below zero), what's going to happen at the jobsite is that as soon as the machine is idled off of the trailer, some operator will hop on it and put the pedal to the floor. Not only is it not very equipment-friendly, it's also unproductive.

You should hear 'em complain when hydraulic functions aren't responsive, or transmissions are sluggish for the first half hour or so.

;-)

That makes sense.

Wow, I just looked into this thread, thought it would be boring until I saw how many replies there were!

My thoughts: sorry to a lot of you guys, but I back rdaystrom's explanations, not that that will change anything or that anyone will care LOL!

One thing I might add on the radiator story is the skin effect of still air on a surface, which can significantly increase the resistance to heat loss (R-value) through the wall in question, be it building construction or the tube wall of a liquid to air heat exchanger (radiator). It was noted that there was no wind through the night. The skin resistance can be a significant adder in the heat loss calculation, and wind (or moving air) destroys the skin effect. So the heat in the water could last quite a while sitting in still air, but quickly dissipate when on the road, at the same ambient temp (must be @ or below 32-deg.F. to freeze of course). And if you have a car with an outside air temp indicator, you know that the outdoor air temp can change several degrees up and down on a 10-mile trip. At least those are my thoughts on that subject.

As to wind chill, maybe you've heard that they're talking about removing it from the daily weather news due to its lack of meaningful information (how the air temp feels on your skin) and because of its potential for misuse in safety considerations.

On those vortex coolers, I've bought a couple of those from McMaster Carr to cool electrical enclosures where I work... it uses a lot of compressed air though, but are a quick fix if you already have the 100-psi CA supply.

When I hit black ice in Denver c.1974 at about 7:00AM, it was unbelievably slick. And, it had no sheen to it! The asphalt was non-reflective, flat black. No amount of steering input had any effect on the direction I was going, very scary, but I slid safely onto the grass shoulder. Many were not so fortunate. I had never heard of it before, and I've never experienced true black ice since.

larso1, Good post. I agree with your thoughts on the subject and appreciate your backing. Having ridden motorcycles in all seasons and climates I can assure you that you are right about the outside air temperature varying up and down several degrees on a ten mile trip. About the black ice subject. Like your experience, mine was shocking as well and I have only seen true black ice that 1 time in a large quantity. It was so slick an Olympic ice skater would have trouble standing on it. Just kidding in a way but not really. It was truly the slickest thing I had ever seen. And you could not see it at all. I was amazed by it but even more I was so thrilled that I managed to get the two million dollar medical coach through it without a crash. Needless to say I was about as nervous as you can get for a while.

"Having ridden motorcycles in all seasons and climates I can assure you that you are right about the outside air temperature varying up and down several degrees on a ten mile trip."

might that just be another case of feeling different levels of wind chill ?

Ask any biker that has ridden much. Temps change by several degrees across the countryside. Sometimes it is predictable and other times it is random. Going down into a valley drops the temp considerably. It almost is shocking when you're out there at night riding without a good jacket. Temps are marginal, almost too cold, then you see a valley coming up and it's,"Oh great I'm about to freeze for a minute or two till I get out of this valley." The temperature changes I have seen like that I have also verified with my various different vehicles with outside temperature sensors.

I rode 2 wheelers too for any yrs.. ain't nothing to shock you like comin out from behind a grove of trees and then having that cold 25 MPH N/W wind smack you in the face - that's wind chill. Also drove 18 wheelers for years... allus hadta watch out for road icing on mountain I-states. Tried those cab mounted thermometers - ended up going back to watching the spray off my drivers to detect/confirm actual road icing.

Yep , fondly remember heading through the Smokey Mountains just North of Ash-ville N.C. back in 1980 and being introduced to Practical Dew Point Characteristics while leaving the Base to the Summit on my Harley FLHC . I think the elevation change was approx. 1200' perhaps someone can correct me if i'am wrong , but hell yes you certainly felt the Thermal Temperature variations on that 90 Mile Trip through the mountains from Gatlinburg Tennesee . Good to see everyone still on topic , hope the weather is good with all , it's crazy warm hear in Vancouver , Great Hockey ! The Top Teams are all getting a run for Their Money , have Box Seats for USA / Canada Game via my Son , should be a Barn Burner ! 1st time I have used my Laptop since arriving . Well Chow all see ya when I get back next week..Ty ! :)

Surely there are more opinions out there on windchill and batteries! TTT!

Nah were all stuck in a gorge trying to collectively find a way out tttt he...he !

Hows it going Metal ?

I'll be glad when this winter is long gone. I'm looking forward to some warmer weather. I wish I had two homes. One in Australia and one in USA. I could just follow the warm weather. Winter is not something I enjoy. I like a good snow once in a while for a day or two but that's about enough. Around here we just get miserable, wet, rainy, and cold winters that are good for nothing. This winter is lasting way too long. The two previous years (2008 & 2009) I had fully green Bermuda by March 15th and was mowing. This year (2010) the Bermuda is fully dormant on March 9th. Still rainy and cold. Today was a little better though. Temperature was 74...I got outside but the yard was like a wet sponge from yesterdays downpour.

Well not quite that warm here yet . 50 F is real warm here for this time of the yr. I hope to get out for some Ice fishing on Mar 8th for a long weekend . Won't know till just before I leave whether to bring the Snowmobile or Quad , Strange Winter Ice won't last long at this rate. Must admit that I don't mind the idea of a Early Spring though...guess I'am just getting Old .

One time my truck was sitting in front of my house and the temperature was too cold to even register on the temp guage (under 100F), but I drove it into the wind for 20 miles without water in the radiator and it overheated. I thought the wind chill would keep the engine cool or possibly freeze it up completely? I guess I didn't drive fast enough?

I guess you truck engine is not air cooled HAA, HAAA, HAA? come on metal this was dead and buried!

Interesting thread. There may be a simple explanation regarding the phenomenon of water freezing in the radiator of a car that's in motion. Hot water freezes faster than cold water. Once the engine has heated the water it becomes more prone to freezing as it passes thru the radiator when outside ambient temps are at or below freezing.

" Hot water freezes faster than cold water."
OK, time for the debunking squad to "suit up".
This old myth has been around for as long as there has been hot water plumbing in houses. I don't know if some old plumber got this going (with a twinkle in his eye) to see how many people he could dupe, or if it came about from misinterpretation of the facts or what. The basis of how the myth originated has been variously explained, but the most likely reason it became popular has nothing to do with laws of physics. Instead, it is because of the way people use the hot, or the cold, water in their home. Typically, the hot water half of the system gets called on much less than the cold water. This means that the water standing in the pipes on the hot side has a better chance to be cooled below the freezing point than the cold water side. And when folks leave a faucet "trickling" on a cold night to prevent the pipes from freezing, it's the cold water that is let to trickle. There again, no replenishment of warmth on the hot water pipes. Plumbers often say that they replace or repair pipes on the hot side more than the cold side after a bitter cold snap. But not because "hot water freezes first or faster".

Hey RC how much did ya pay Metal to Revive this one lol ~
Just for the fun of it here goes ! This Phenomenon should get better Mileage than Black Ice . I think the Mpemba Effect
is what would best describe this Theory of Freezing Aqueous
Solutions . This has been discussed as far back as Aristotle . The American Journal of Scientific Studies is what I read during College along with numerous tests in our Liquids in Suspension and Transitions Lab . I'll leave the Final Equation of Fact up to You all . I known Mownie will be interested .

My statement: In order to freeze water, you must remove heat. If you stand 2 identical volumes of water, only difference being that one has been heated to 140 degrees F while the other one is at 78 degrees F, into a location where the ambient temperature is 0 degrees F, the sample that was initially 78 degrees F will be the first one to begin showing ice. It will also be the first one to freeze solid. Because the 140 degree sample contained more heat (BTU) when placed into the 0 degree F environment, it will take longer for it to lose enough heat for ice to begin forming. By this time, the other sample will already be showing a significant amount of ice formation.

What if you had cold water and no wind, and hot water with a 50mph wind blowing on it? Which would freeze first then?

"In order to freeze water, you must remove heat." Agreed, but under some conditions hot water freezes quicker. I'm guessing that this must have something to do with water having less surface tension at higher temperatures, thus under some conditions hot water losses it's heat quicker. There again, this is just me speculating and I'm not a chemist,just a plain ole country boy that was blessed with a little bit of common sense.

So maybe the heat from the engine heated the water, therefore making it freeze quicker? : )

I think this thread can hit 200...

I'll help.
It is 7:36 AM CDT on Saturday.
We have had a beautiful heavy white frost overnight.
Ice crystals only form/develop at 32 degrees F.
Yet the ambient air temperature has only reached 34 degrees F overnight.
Could the frost have formed as a result of "evaporative cooling"?
Or did the frost "fall out of the air" as my grandmother used to say?

Must be Black Ice formation from Wind Chill Theory , how say you Ray ? Sorry off to Deer Camp , let me know the outcome Roflmbo :)

Mownie's been right on this one all along. There is always confusion between how temperature effects matter and how temperature effects humans.

Temperature on matter effects the kinetic energy in the matter. Temperature on humans is felt as the "rate of heat loss". Humans want to be at 98.6F. No more, no less. When the ambient temperature is around 70F and you add the heat generated by the pumping of the heart and average movement, the human body reaches the 98.6 and pure happiness ensues.

When we lower the temperature the rate of heat loss increases. Most people will say they are cold, but it is actually "the rate of heat loss" they are feeling. If you add a wind to this, the rate of heat loss will increase and humans will say they are colder. They should really be saying that their rate of heat loss is higher but they don't.

Anyway, wind chill has no effect on matter except to get it to the actual temperature quicker, but on living beings this increase in heat loss becomes the same as lower temperature.

By the way to test this. Go into your cold shed and touch a piece of metal and then touch a piece of cloth. You have to agree that if both materials have been in there all night they are both the same temperature. So why is the metal feeling so much colder then the cloth. Only because the metal is sucking away your heat quicker then the cloth. As humans we would say the metal is colder, but it is not.

So in a nutshell, human's do not feel temperature, they only feel heat loss. Hope that makes sense.

some wonderful theories expounded in this thread, but still ain't sure how that old '51 ford froze up... and I'll still park a tractor out of the prevailing wind if I hafta leave it outside overnite in the winter... better chance of starting it next morning.

Here is the next temperature trivia question for those in the upper Northern Hemisphere. If the sun is as far north as it is going to get on June 21, why do the highest temperatures usual come in around July, after the sun has moved away a little?

Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?

"Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?" You could also put your girlfriend in the same room and ask for a comparison. My guess is, temps would rise....

"Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?"

That is a blood circulation issue.

"If the sun is as far north as it is going to get on June 21, why do the highest temperatures usual come in around July, after the sun has moved away a little?"

and that is a thermal mass issue. The earth's incredibly large thermal mass requires time to heat up. So the sun's energy may be higher in the 3rd week of June but it gets sucked away by the cold earth. Finally around July the earths temperature allows the sun's heat to result in higher ambient temperatures.

Anyway, I mention this because when dealing with matter, we can increase or decrease the rate of temperature change by adding or removing air or moving liquid, etc, but we still have to account for it's thermal mass. Your push mower is going to cool down a lot quicker then your lawn tractor.

JHC talking about coming back from the dead! GGGzzzzzzzzzzzzz z I have read all of this and desided to by VW (older VW so I don't have to worry about water freezing). O yes I will remove the battery and push start it when AIR temps approaches 32 degrees!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reincarnation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Hee, Hee!!