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stored batteries

Posted by rcmoser (My Page) on
Sun, Jan 10, 10 at 18:17

I know this is probably alittle late especially after the deep freeze most of us have been in the last week and us southern boys usually don't have to deal with blister cold. If you equipment stored out in the cold or even in unheated shed if the battery become less than 40% discharged it may freeze if the temp. dips below 16 degrees F. I would think wind chill would also play a part if stored outside? I know here it got down to 5 degree and that is unusual for central OK but not unheard of. IMO thats probably what kill alot of batteries in the spring when there brought out of storage


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: stored batteries

Wind chill factor is something that was developed to try to illustrate how wind velocity increases the rate of heat loss from any object. It does not mean that if the ambient temperature is 20 degrees F with a WCF of minus 5 degrees F that the object will be cooled or "chilled" to a temperature of minus 5 degrees F. It means that the object will lose heat at the rate it would in still, unmoving air if the ambient temperature were minus 5 degrees F. But if the ambient air temperature is 20 degrees F, the object will stop losing heat when the temperature of the object reaches 20 degrees F. At that point it has reach thermal equilibrium and will lose no additional heat unless the ambient temperature drops further. Even though WCF does not actually result in the temperature of objects dropping to the WCF temp, WCF remains an important thing to be aware of for persons going outdoors. The temperature at which humans and other animals are in danger is far above the freeze point of water, so it doesn't require bitter cold to develop hypothermia. The WCF was intended to inform persons of how fast they would lose heat when exposed to the outdoors by factoring in the prevailing wind velocity against the ambient air temperature. The result is the wind chill factor temperature rate. It has also been called the "feels like" temperature colloquially. Realistically speaking, 20 degree air can cool objects to only 20 degrees, but if you make the 20 degree air blow over the object at 20 MPH, you will get the object cooled to 20 degrees a lot quicker.


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RE: stored batteries

Wind chill factor was never intended to illustrate how wind velocity increases the rate of heat loss from "any" object. Wind chill is the apparent temperature felt on exposed skin due to wind. The degree of this phenomenon depends on both air temperature and wind speed. It's a relatively inaccurate "feels like" temperature never intended to calculate true heat loss.


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RE: stored batteries

I agree with rdaystrom, sorry mownie. Wind chill is meant for Humans not batteries.


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RE: stored batteries

I never said it was for batteries. And while you may maintain that the WCF is for humans only, that stops short of the mark. Though the popular term "Wind Chill Factor" may have been coined to standardize the language as to how wind velocity "makes one feel colder", the physics and thermodynamic principles regarding heat being absorbed from a warm object, into a colder (less warm) object are the base that WCF stands on. Heat will be absorbed out of a warm object and into the cooler air faster if the air is moving across the object than if the air surrounding the object is motionless, whether that object is a battery or a human is not a factor.


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Interesting Debate Gentlemen , The Term Wind Chill was developed to pertain to Human Being's during Survival Testing. It was a scientific in origin utilized by the Military. However the Rate of Radiant Heat Loss of a Given Inanimate Object Eg: Automobile Radiator will be affected accordingly by Wind Chill Factor. Mownie's analogy would pertain to the rate of cooling in a certain Time Frame that would Relate to a State of Discharging Batteries. The Formula of Water Freezing @ 32 Degrees F. Remains , the only affect of Wind Chill would be the Increased Heat Loss on a Body of Water is that the Rate of Time to Freeze the Surface would be lessened by the Rate of the Ambient Temp plus the Wind Velocity Index . Having worked in Hvac Industry for yrs. I have on numerous occassion worked within Radiant , Conduction and Convection Heating System Designs . The most critical element of Design within Wind Chill was the Proper Calcuation for North Facing Bearing Walls and Proper Insulating Crtieria (Dew Point) As Mouwnie has indicated Heat is given off a Warm Object to a Cooler Medium much more readily when Ambient Air Velocity is Increased . In many System Design the Terminal Velocity of Forced Air Heating Equipment had to be Tempereed with a Plenum Heater due to the Make up air (Outside) causing a Wind Chill Affect (Sub-cooling) the Heating Element (Medium) causing less than Design Optimium Discharge Heat Charge . I guess what I'am trying to say is all parties are partially correct As any Farmer would relate , you don't park the Tractor (Diesel) into a North Prevailing Wind Overnight in January and expect it to Crank and Fire up in the Morning lol ..Ty !


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RE: stored batteries

RC The Best advice that I can suggest other than the common sense approach that you have provided (Trickle Charger) for Equipment that is not ran often . Is by better Battery Design , for those who do not keep abreast of current technology , Spiral Wound Battery design is the most vibration , freeze proof design on the Market. Originally utilized by the Military these batteries will provide twice the cranking amps of a conventional cranking battery and the same (Deep Cycle) load cycle as a Marine service battery. They also recharge 3-4 times faster than a convential battery of the same Amperage . I utilize this form of battery on all my autos including my Diesel Truck and RV. Equipment . But as RC has indicated common sense and proper maintenance will provide the best defence against a Dead Battery when you least expect it lol...Ty .


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I have had batteries in my tractors last for many years by just starting and running the engines for at least 20 minutes every two or three months during the cold winter. My tractors are kept in an unheated attached garage. Running them occasionally charges the battery, and circulates the oil, helping to prevent corrosion. I make sure I run them long enough so the oil gets hot. My JD 325 tractor is now 10 years old and has the original battery in it. Once a year, I check the electrolyte, and if necessary, add distilled water. This procedure has worked well for me. I know there are times when it goes below freezing in the garage, because ice will not melt on my snow blower or on the floor. Charles Ranheim


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RE: stored batteries

The op was just wondering if as the temperature drops and the specific gravity of the electrolyte in his battery drops will the freezing temperature of his battery increase and the answer is yes it will. Wind chill not effect equipment? Guess again!


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RE: stored batteries

And all this time I thought "wind chill factor" was a football term..


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RE: stored batteries

Popcorn ! Hand me going with that one , lost my coffee lol !


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RE: stored batteries

OK, I shouldn't of mention wind chill. But, I know when the wind is blowing and water is on the road it will freeze above freezing (32F) hence the term black ice. I also know when I froget (well I never have) to put the anti-freeze back in my car and drive down the road it don't take along for the 50 mile an hour wind to freeze the radiator which would not freeze at street driving. (Need to see my latest post on the briggs oil leak, now that is something we will difference of opinions on which is why I posted it wanting to know different levels of knowledge and opinions when if comes to torque.)

I think it may make things colder when the wind is blowing, but all I care about is it's %*&$)*& cold.

so my point was if the battery was less than 40% charged it could freeze at 16 degree and lower. I didn't come to that myself, good old google enlighten me. Which I agree a trickle charger is a good idea to get longevity out of a battery


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RE: stored batteries

Your right on RC ! Even though ambient temps may be above 32.F Black Ice can develop on road surface due to wind chill , same with automobile rad example , thus Mownie was correct within his original assertion . Any Battery less than 50% charged shall freeze and could explode if equipment is started and charging system attempts to restore a form of charge to the Battery . All the more reason to ensure a proactive approach to Battery Mtce.


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RE: stored batteries

I keep my equipment in an attached garage and have never had issues until I went out this weekend and my truck that had been sitting for over a month wouldn't turn over. I bought two "Battery Tender Juniors" (one for my truck and one for the tractor). They only cost ~$23 each and shipping is free (there are cheaper ones out there, but Battery Tender brand seems to get very good reviews). Well worth the price if I need the truck for an emergency.


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RE: stored batteries

Trickle Chargers like the Battery Tender are an excellent choice . I have used one on my Marine Service application for yrs. Always had issues since the marine battery case was not conveniently accessible. Once I bought the Tender , end of troubles . On another note with new battery technology , mtce free battery types preclude checking electrolyte levels , therefore more than ever testing or routine charging to determine state of charge is more important. I normally check my battery monthly c/w inspecting the terminals and cleaning if req'd. We sure are getting some mileage from RC's Post..Eh !


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Black Ice forms on roadways because the temperature of the roadway is well below 32 degrees when a warmer rainfall occurs. Air temps may be in the mid 30s but the roadway can be significantly lower. The water freezes almost transparent on the roadway and is wet on top causing the ultra slick surface. "Windchill" cannot freeze water above 32 degrees....period.
"Windchill" is not an accurate term when referring to the effect that large volumes of air have on objects. Increasing air volume over an object does cool the object quicker but it's primarily because of conduction. While the effect of increased air volume over an object is essentially the same as the effect of "windchill" on humans the two terms have been inaccurately interchanged. Windchill on humans is closely related to humidity as well as wind speed. The reason humidity is such a factor is because human skin is almost always moist to some extent and wind speed and relative humidity greatly affects the "feel" of heat loss. This "feel" of heat loss is related to but not equal to wind blowing across an object.
bushleague, Specific gravity in an electrolyte solution slightly increases as temperature drops (Not decrease) So wind speed does not affect the freezing point of the battery. Specific gravity in the electrolyte determines the freezing point. The specific gravity is controlled by the state of charge. A highly discharged or dead battery will freeze at a higher temperature than a fully charged battery. It is true that increased wind speed will hasten the process of heat loss but it does not lower the freezing point.


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rdaystrom: Sorry Dude but Black Ice can also develop from Above freezing ambient ground temperatures affected by cooler winds blowing accross a road surface , which reducs the surface temperature , causing the formation of ice. Also large volumes of air over a warm body increases the heat loss of that body ! It is referred to as Convectional Heat loss not Conduction . Conduction is from a solid to a solid (Heating Cable) or a liquid heat transfer to a liquid (Tube Shell Heat Exchanger), were as Radiant Energy is tranmitted primarily gaseous medium (Infra-Red Air Heater) . Sorry but the buck stops here , I stand by my previous statement . Sorry but I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree Dude !


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RE: stored batteries

ewalk, There is no question that cooler air (below 32 degrees) blowing over a road surface can freeze water that may have been above 32 at some point. That isn't what you said above. Your statement above,
"Even though ambient temps may be above 32.F Black Ice can develop on road surface due to wind chill", is false.
With ambient temperatures above 32 no amount of wind will freeze water that is above 32 degrees. Your use of the term windchill is also misused. Windchill refers to a human feeling.
Conduction does occur in solids, liquids, and gases but you are correct that convection is the right word for heat transfer through large moving masses of air. Radiant is not just primarily gaseous as you stated. Everything radiates infra-red energy. Infra red energy is just a wavelength in the electromagnetic spectrum. If it were primarily gaseous I doubt the sun would feel very warm.
Anyway, my primary objection to your other post was the use of windchill. I noticed you changed all that to convection later. Also when cold winds below 32 degrees cool a warmer wet surface it tends to form slush or more visible ice because of the entrapped air. Black ice is clear ice formed by warmer rain falling on extremely cold road surfaces and freezing as clear as glass. It is clear ice that is wet on top making it the slickest thing you will ever see. This phenomena also causes ice storms. Extremely cold ground, trees, and objects, freeze the rain that falls on them that is just above freezing itself. If it were a degree or two colder it would fall as sleet or snow. Ice storms and black ice require a narrow set of conditions to occur.
Back to windchill. Windchill makes a person "feel" cold because of two things. Increased evaporation and increased heat loss due to "convection".


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rdaystrom: Yes Conduction is what I gave examples of both Liquid and Solid...read more carefully , you would be a very capable Politician but a very poor Hvac Technician lol ! Anyhow I think the Majority of Poster's would disagree with your ascertation
and have clearly viewed their viewpoint Windchill vs Air Velocity Index on Inanimate objects "Not Humans" . Were discussing Batteries and the OP did convey a very good viewpoint which Mownie & I agree . Sorry you object to our usage of Wind Chill or Wind Chill Affect which are referred to as a synonym in the Hvac Industry , Your entitled to your opinion..lol ! Chow..Ty !


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This is rather amusing:

"Black Ice can also develop from Above freezing ambient ground temperatures affected by cooler winds blowing accross a road surface , which reducs the surface temperature"

Is the temperature of the ground surface ABOVE freezing, or is it BELOW freezing? If the temperature of the ground surface is above freezing, then it doesn't matter what the wind is doing. When moisture contacts the ground....what happens?


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I agree something has to be below freezing for the Ice to form. either the wind ( in so the temp. usually drops mins or sec. after that) or the ground. The problem is with road surfaces we don't know the condition of either therefore we may get in trouble real quick especially where the sun don't shine!.

Again I am sorry I brought up the terms wind chill or black ice.


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RC: No Apology necessary , yes of course the air must be cooler ! That was what the OP was referring too , and I was
stating , some folks just cannot read apparently . I live in a extreme cold climate where prevailing wind causes all kinds of freeze damage , both domestic , commercial and industrial . I have yrs of experience in this field , and sorry but the last time I took a breath , the air I breathed was in a Gaseous Form , but I regress , since Ray did not take the time to fully read or comprehend my Initial Post . I 'am very knowledgeable of Wind Chill as it applies to Humans . This is my last word on the subject since , I think we have covered the intent of the Original Post .


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"I live in a extreme cold climate where prevailing wind causes all kinds of freeze damage , both domestic , commercial and industrial . I have yrs of experience in this field"

Lots of us live in cold climates. If the temperature outside is "X" degrees, then that's what the temperature is. The "prevailing winds" don't make it one bit colder. If you desire proof, take a peek at a thermometer exposed to the wind. Then shield it from the wind and look at it again. Then....imagine that that thermometer is similar, (because it IS), to any other inanimate object that may be exposed to the wind.

Wind does not cause "freeze damage" to equipment.

It just doesn't.

;-)


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with all due respect, baloney. I can remember a number of times yrs ago when looking in an engine's radiator to confirm no ice - then starting up, driving for a cuppla miles and the radiator all of a sudden froze up solid.
Please elucidate cause - enquiring minds wanna know...


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RE: stored batteries

ewalk, You made this personal. Not me. I kept it on a debate level. I never once mentioned that you could not comprehend the material or that you did not take take the time to read it. In fact you informed us as to how much experience you have and how very knowledgeable you are. You must be really smart.


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RE: stored batteries

"with all due respect, baloney. I can remember a number of times yrs ago when looking in an engine's radiator to confirm no ice - then starting up, driving for a cuppla miles and the radiator all of a sudden froze up solid. "

Repeat this test again now and see if you can duplicate your result. Simply put some water in a bottle and attach it to your vehicle. Drive as fast as you want in an attempt to make the "wind chill" freeze the water. Unless the ambient temperature is below freezing, the water won't freeze.

According to the NWS wind chill index chart, at 40 degrees outside and with a 60 mph wind, the wind chill "temperature" is 25 degrees. Water freezes at 32 degrees. Pick a 40 degree day, and go 60 mph. Heck go nuts on the freeway and go 80 mph. It won't matter, your water won't freeze.

To verify the un-frozen water in your bottle, duct tape a thermometer to your vehicle antenna, and watch it NOT register a colder temperature as you drive.

Then, triple-check your experiment results by holding your hand outside your vehicle window while stopped, and while moving. Yes, even though your previous experimentation has confirmed that it ISN'T colder while you're moving, it still FEELS colder....and that's all "wind chill" is.

;-)


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broke_not, You are exactly right.


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I guess my Father was right when he advised me to never say never lol ! Ok here goes !

Broke: Yes the Ground would be subfreezing ! Also the Prevailing Northern Winds , well at least here in the Great White North in January , although the ambient air may be at or slightly above freezing . Same assumption for Op's State of Origin I assumed.

Ray: I was referring to reading my Original Post of Jan. 11th I stated that the normal freezing point of water would remain 32 F. Via Wind Chill Doctrine . I further referred to Wind Chill Index as it relates to Sub-Cooling (Convectional Heat Loss)within the Realm of Hvac Thermodynamics and Fluid Parabolic Heat Transfer Formulas that I have used routinely in the past. I realize and believe I stated quite concisely the difference between "Your Wind Chill Theory on Humans" which I agree , and my Hvac Wind Chill (Sub-Cooling) Effect on Inanimate Objects ,are similar but different as to the amount of Time which a liquid would refreeze at approx. 32 or slightly above at the surface , when subjected to a Sub-Cooling Northern Wind Affect . I never stated sub-cooling would freeze a swimming pool in a matter of minutes , but rather a a transitional slush / ice condition which you described as transparent , where I might describe as translucent "Black Ice" lol. P.S. The Infra-Red Heating example I advise of was correct in that Infra-Red (Quartz Grid Heaters) are , whether Elect. or Gas Fired , designed to use a gaseous Medium (air) to effect a form of Conductive / Convection Optimum Heat Transfer . In other words they do not effectively heat the air but rather pass through it to a solid or reflective object , preferably Non Combustible lol,thereby absorbing most of the Rated Btu's of the Appliance and giving off these calories of Heat back into the Ambient Air to be carried via Convection Currents to end-user either personnel or in freeze proofing a piece of vital Production or Operating Equipment. EG: Welding Personnel (Metal Slab) Fabrication Table absorbs the Heat(Conduction) and gives up it's Heat Calories back into the Air(Convection) within a Welding Field Quonset . Anyhow as I advised on Jan.11th my Humble Opinion was and still is as previously stated , with numerous personal experiences prior to retirement confirming same. Sorry if you do not agree with my analogy or that of other Posters as to Rads Slushing or Black Ice incidents due to Sub-Cooling Affect of Northern Prevailing Winds that they have identified . Common sense would dictate that South Prevailing Winds would normally be considered Balmy at least up North here where Ambient Temperature can fail rapidly within less than a hr.when subjected to Sub-Arctic Cold Fronts passing through , as I have again stated you are entitled to your own opinion.

P.S. You may be correct in that I may have made this personnel , if so perceived , please allow me to apologize , its been a tedious few weeks lately...Ty !


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All I can say to that is.....wow.

If it indeed IS the ground being at a sub-freezing temperature accounting for the moisture on the road surface freezing, then any blabbering on about "prevailing winds" is nothing but ....blabbering.

What causes moisture to freeze? The answer is simple: TEMPERATURE. What makes a discharged battery freeze? TEMPERATURE. What makes an engine harder to start in the winter? TEMPERATURE.

And "wind chill" is not, nor will it ever be....TEMPERATURE.

I'd ask you to summarize your last post, but I don't know if I want to open that can of worms. I think this thread has probably already had its fill of good ol' "baffle 'em with bs" type stuff.

;-)


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bn - scenario:
car sits outside all night - temp near freezing, no prevailing wind. A visual check into the radiator cap confirms coolant still liquid.
Start engine, drive towards town around 40 to 60 mph. 2 miles out, temp gauge pegs hot. Stop car, again chk radiator cap, coolant frozen. air temp ain't changed.
Pls elucidate.


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Broke: Well Moisture here in the Great White North In any month after Mid November through to Mid March , is in the form of Snow..never Warm Rain Roflmbo ! So what makes the Liquid State Transition from either Ice or Snow...well I would recollect , either Mid Day Sunlight or Road Salt on Majority of our Dark (Asphalt) Highways., we do not have any Cement usage here up North . Although the Surface Temperature is Elevated enough to allow moisture or water via this Sun /salt combination , the Black Ice formation can and does occur very rapidly with any form of Prevailing (Colder) Winds here in Northern Ontario . Hows that for a Summary of what should have been rather clear! As I said the Black Ice from liquid state or semi Solid (Slush) is at the Surface only and forms within seconds or minutes .
As for the Lesson in Hvac Heating Theory No Charge lol.
Dude we have came a long way from Battery Maintenance 101 , but since were here battery post cleaning and or tightness of connection is the most prevalent form or cause of Discharge not Ambient Temperature ...just to be Clear .
Further and not to be impolite I don't really care if you believe me or not , because numerous others do , Have a Great Day ..Eh !


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"bn - scenario:
car sits outside all night - temp near freezing, no prevailing wind. A visual check into the radiator cap confirms coolant still liquid.
Start engine, drive towards town around 40 to 60 mph. 2 miles out, temp gauge pegs hot. Stop car, again chk radiator cap, coolant frozen. air temp ain't changed. "

---------------

Similar question. Soft drinks stored in unheated sun porch, ambient temp about 20*f. I grab a few bottles of uncarbonated green tea drink to bring inside. Although below freezing, the contents are liquid. I drop one bottle and find it is now frozen solid when I pick it up. Which scenario is more likely:

1) The wind chill created by the bottle falling 4 feet to the ground cooled the liquid to the point it finally froze?

2) The agitation caused by the bottle impacting the floor created minute air bubbles that allowed the super-cooled water in solution to form ice crystals?

Now, did the water in the radiator freeze because of similar agitation when the engine was started and the water pump started cranking, or was it the wind chill caused by the airflow through the radiator?

We need an expert in thermodynamics and the physics of water in solution...


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IMO the water freezing in the radiator is caused by the themostat when the water stops flowing the cold air flowing over the radiator Dispates the heat very quickly and causes it to freeze!?! if the themostat was removed IMO the water would flow and probably not freeze unless the temp. was way below freezing and of course depending on how fast your going???????? at what temp. and speed? well, I don't know?


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Wind chill has no impact on cars or any other inanimate objects: wind will shorten the time it takes for an object to cool to the temperature of the surrounding air, but it won't get any colder than that no matter how much wind there is. End of story.


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"bn - scenario:
car sits outside all night - temp near freezing, no prevailing wind. A visual check into the radiator cap confirms coolant still liquid.
Start engine, drive towards town around 40 to 60 mph. 2 miles out, temp gauge pegs hot. Stop car, again chk radiator cap, coolant frozen. air temp ain't changed.
Pls elucidate."

I'll have to ponder that one for a while, but I can guarantee you wind chill is not the answer. There are too many ways to rule that out, not to mention stories of it occurring frequently would be everywhere. Simply *Googling* with keywords like "water in radiator frozen" brings up hundreds of hits because apparently people getting caught during colder weather with nothing but straight water in their cooling systems isn't all that uncommon. Since the frozen-radiator-due-to-having-no-antifreeze situation has occurred as often as it has, I *have to* believe that just as many times, (if not more), plenty of people have driven their cars at highway speeds with straight water in the cooling systems while the ambient temp is close to, (but not below), freezing. And when they've done so, their vehicles haven't exhibited the same symptoms.

Something just doesn't add up.

;-)


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car wus mine - a '51 ford v-8 2 door hardtop (1st yr Ford made such).. wus stationed in USAF at Shaw AFB, SC, Feb '59.
We got hit by one of the infrequent cold snaps down there - overnite temp dropped to right at freezing. Car wus parked in the lot behind the barracks - no wind to speak of.
Straight water in the radiator (spare $$ were tight then), but I knew I wus gonna hafta pop for a gallon cuz it wus supposed to get colder the following nite.
So, I went to drive off-base to get antifreeze from a local place carrying such. I popped the rad cap just before I started the car up - water was liquid at top with no ice showing.
Releived, I fired up - got out of the base gate onto the main drag - got about a mile down the road when temp guage pegged and engine started to lug. Pulled over right quick, popped the hood and rad cap - was froze up good. Just hadta
sit there with hood back down for about 30-45 minnits till engine heat thawed rad enuff to get going again. Got my antifreeze and never drove w/o A/F coolant since. Wus one of those life lessons whut stuck.
I understand "wind chill" as it relates to "feel like" body sensations which today's weather merlins love to hype. I don't mean to infer that same wus at work with my car experience.

But, something made thet radiator freeze up. And I wus raised in Minn - familiar with cold, wind, froze batteries/radiators.


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I've got no explanation except that perhaps it did get a degree, (or two or three), below freezing overnight so that nothing was completely frozen solid, but there was some slush or a light coating of ice on the inside of the hoses and engine that was pushed into the radiator through the upper hose when the thermostat opened. When it ended up there, it couldn't flow through the tubes, and that's why it got hot.

I really can't see any other explanation, and I think the same thing would have happened if the car had been sitting still and running at the same rpm. The wind had nothing to do with it....if it did, we would see the same/similar things happening every day.

Water doesn't have any asterisk next to it's freezing point in a list of its properties. If the temperature is below freezing, it'll freeze. If it's above freezing it won't. Air moving around in whichever ambient temperature situation we're looking at changes nothing as far as the temperature required to freeze or unfreeze water is concerned.

If we're unable to duplicate what occurred through some simple experimentation without changing a parameter, well....

;-)


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The answer to this "poser" lies somewhere in Bernoulli's Principle and in the Venturi Effect. Both of those apply to numerous practical things we are familiar with (such as: exactly how is "lift" created that permits aircraft to function?, what causes carburettor icing?, and how does my YA 862 Snap-On choke tester produce both a cold zero degrees stream of air out of one end and a hot 160 degrees stream of air out the opposite end simply by connecting the device to a supply of compressed air.) The Snap-On choke tester I mention is something of a modern marvel, it has no moving parts, it operates off of compressed air, and it delivers frigid air at at one outlet and hot air at the opposite outlet simultaneously when you connect the thing to a supply of compressed air via the inlet port located in the mid section of the tester. The tester (which I bought back in the early '90s) was aimed at the problem of needing to cool or chill the choke mechanism on carburetted engines to check or adjust for cold start efficiency while also being able to provide a way to heat the choke mechanism to check/adjust pull off parameters.
I am thinking that similar principles and cooling effects may be acting on the surfaces of an automobile radiator that would duplicate or simulate the same thing that takes place inside the compressed air driven YA 862 choke tester. I have not been able to come up with anything relating or connecting rcbe's event to the principles above, but I will hazard to guess that given the uncertainties of aerodynamics created by the unique shape of an automobile (meaning there are "unknowns" as to where low pressure or high pressure zones will form or exist as the vehicle plows through the atmosphere), and whatever cooling (or heating) effects will develop, the two principles above may provide the key to why/how the water in a car radiator might be cooled to freeze when the car is moving through calm air under certain "perfect conditions" where everything just clicks into the right spot. Another phenomenon that I have observed in my years of automotive work is the formation of frost and ice on the metal portion of a tire valve stem when the core is removed for rapid deflation of the tire. You can pick the hottest day of summer and remove the valve core on an inflated tire and as the air escapes, frost and even ice can be seen forming on the threaded metal part of the stem. This occurs because the air expands rapidly as it exhaust out the tube of the stem. When undergoing rapid expansion, a compressed gas will absorb heat readily from any surfaces contacting the expanding gas. I believe the same circumstances are present in my choke tester and also in the radiator scenario. I just can't find any cases or data to say for sure, though there are plenty of allusions to be found by searching the net.


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RC: You absolutely correct that a Body of Water at Rest at or slightly above freezing would more easily sub-cool to freezing than water in Motion .

Metal: I have already indicated in my Jan 11th post that Ambient Sub-cooling Winds only shortens the Time Frame . Your Correct. Where I disagree with Ray is wherein in Extreme Cold Regions , Prevailing Winds can cause Black Ice to Form on Slightly above Freezing Ground with Ambient Temperature of the Same Gradient. I have witnessed this occur on numerous occasions within Northern Ontario Roadways and Over passes due to Colder Northern Prevailing Winds .

P.S. Just a further footnote , My former Home Town still has the record for the Coldest Day on Record in Ontario -50 F . 1965...if memory serves me well lol .

PhotoBob: Very Interesting Theory , although I have never came across a Bottle of Non-Carbonized Green Tea. I have though witnessed the effects of Dissolved Oxygen within High Pressure Industrial Turbines cause heavy Cavitation Damage when Venturi Sizing was not properly implemented. The High Pressure to Low Pressure Transition released the entrapped air from the Fluid which caused subsequent secondary Stage Impeller Damage on this equipment. Don't no where this would apply with your Tea unless carbonation was the catalyst ?

Mownie: Great Post Dude (as usual) . The example of increased air velocity over the longer radius and surface area of the contoured wing causing the low pressure and subsequent potential for lift is very similar to the Principle of Thermodynamic Fluid (Condensate) and Steam (Vapour) Flow within Mechanical Disc Type Steam Traps that I'am very familiar within my former Hvac Responsibilities.
As for the Venturi affect of the low Pressure Vortex area within a common carburetor and how the low Pressure within the throat , combined with 14.7 lb of atmospheric pressure to assist within Fuel Delivery is also again very interesting. The Only Freeze occurrence within the Carb area that I have personally witnessed was back in my Teens. I was driving back through Thunder Bay Ontario , when a Cold Front from Alberta hit us , in My Old 1966 Fleetside Chevy (230 cu in.straight six). The Girl friend got pretty worried since Temps were approx approx. 5-8 Below F. and the Winds where gusting out of the North with Snow Squall of the Lake Superior ( Who says it don't snow ) when its Cold. Anyhow the Old truck begins to sputter , Fuel Gauge is Good , Temp Gauge and ALt. both within Spec. I pull over pull off the Air cleaner and that Old Single Throated Rochester looked like a Bavarian Beer Stein Complete with White Frosty Head lol. I carefully cleaned off the Carb of Ice and poured in a bottle of Dry Gas and made it to the next Motel until the next day when the Storm Broke.

Ray / Broke: Just an Addendum for you both , no portion of this post is intended to be condescending , or personal lol , however I do sincerely hope some form of Moderate Information or Entertainment is Conveyed to Whom it may Concern...Ty !

Ifin Yor Girly Don't Find Ya Handsome..See Had Better Find Ya Handy...Eh ! :)


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RE: stored batteries

"bn - scenario:
car sits outside all night - temp near freezing, no prevailing wind. A visual check into the radiator cap confirms coolant still liquid.
Start engine, drive towards town around 40 to 60 mph. 2 miles out, temp gauge pegs hot. Stop car, again chk radiator cap, coolant frozen. air temp ain't changed. "

If you were to take a car and put it in a freezer (32 degrees), it would take quite a long time for the radiator to equilibrate to the temperature in the freezer. If you open the hood and blow the air around the radiator with a fan, it would take a much shorter time.

The explanation for your radiator freezing after you drove the car is that the radiator had not equilibrated with the ambient temperature. When you ran the car, equilibrium was reached the temperature being below 32, the water in the radiator froze.

Wind Chill: If you have a wet object, the wind blowing across it will cause the water (liquid) to evaporate; the evaporation process will cool the container that the liquid is in. If no liquid is involved there will not be any cooling effect.

Wind will not effect the temperature of your battery.


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RE: stored batteries

esemilio - See my post above. Car sat outside all nite long - had plenty of time to "equalize" to ambient temp...


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RE: stored batteries

rc - you stated: "We got hit by one of the infrequent cold snaps down there - overnite temp dropped to right at freezing. Car wus parked in the lot behind the barracks - no wind to speak of...."

The temperature "dropped overnight to right at the freezing..." it did not stay at or below the freezing point long enough to cool the radiator especially becasue "no wind to speak of" had there been wind the air agitation would have cooled the radiator and you would have found it frozen. It takes a long time for the radiator to equilibrate to the ambient temperature especially if the radiator was hot when you parked it the night before.

There is no way your radiator would have frozen if the ambient temperature in the morning when you drove the car was above 32 degrees.


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RE: stored batteries

now I'm getting confused:

"had there been wind the air agitation would have cooled the radiator"

hasn't it already been stated in this thread that wind itself does not have an effect on inaminate objects unless they are covered with liquid water ?


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RE: stored batteries

Rapidly moving air can cause a cooling effect as several of you may have speculated. (Search Boyle's law, Charles law, and gas laws in general for a few days of reading.) An example is an aircraft flying by at supersonic speeds. The pressure wave or shock wave caused by breaking the sound barrier creates this high pressure to low pressure differential causing water to condense momentarily from the cooling affect. I doubt that much of this occurs at the wind speeds or automotive speeds we are talking about.
Another interesting aspect related to this discussion is space shuttle heating upon re-entry. I always assumed the usual answer to re-entry heating was correct. That being friction of the air at 18,000 mph. Apparently it is more complicated than that, in that it is more related to the pressurized cushion of air in front of the shockwave created by the shuttle. The routine "friction" answer is all over the internet but the "pressure" answer comes from seemingly legit sources. Anyway this off-beat post has caused me to think outside the box and has enlightened me to some new stuff I have not considered before. Sometimes a little heat added to a discussion/argument can bear fruit. I wonder what principle that is?? Check out the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cool video illustrating shockwave cooling


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RE: stored batteries

Wind does not cool inaminate objects below the ambient remperature but if the object is above ambient temperature (like your radiator under the hood) the wind would allow it to equilibrate (reach ambient temperature) faster. Your radiator had not equilibrated to the ambient temperature when you checked, in essence it was still cooling.


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RE: more stored batteries

The second half of the video I referred to above shows the cooling affect. Here's a better link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Supersonic cooling affect


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RE: stored batteries

the car sat by itself in the near-freezing temp for at least 12 hours - would think that was sufficient "equilibrating" time for the radiator...


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RE: stored batteries

I considered things like venturi effect, but to freeze that amount of water, that quickly, it seemed like too many things would have to occur too perfectly for it to happen.

I came across a device many years ago in some science hobbyist book my Dad had, that was likely the forerunner of the choke tester tool. It was called a Hilsch Vortex Tube if memory serves, and I attempted to make one as a project for a science fair back in junior high. The instructions and drawings recommended making the internal snail-shaped vortex creating part out of a solid piece of metal, machined to a precise shape. Since we didn't have a mill or any other machining equipment on the farm, we bent the snail out of narrow flat stock and brazed the ends closed.

After lots of fiddling, we did get it to work....sort of. It didn't win any prizes at the fair, but lots of folks did stop by to see what all of the racket was coming from.

Edit:

Just found this after a quick search. This is very similar to the plan we were working from back in the 70's. It doesn't go into as much detail though. Might be fun to give it another go:

Here is a link that might be useful: Hilsch vortex Tube


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RE: stored batteries

Well, looking at the drawings of the Hilsch vortex tube, I would say it is in fact very similar to the Snap-On choke tester. I'll post a picture of mine this weekend. The explanation offered by the article on how the thing works is more complex than I would have thought. And it didn't occur to me before I read that article that the heat content might be more due to the energy content of the decompressing air giving up the heat load that was imparted during compression in the first place. I would guess it is simply obeying some of the laws of conservation of energy.


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RE: stored batteries

My brother is restoring a 1927 Model-T Ford. We recently started the newly rebuilt engine and much to our surprise the intake manifold got so cold it formed ice for about 3 inches beyond the carb. It's easy to see how it happens. The 4 cylinder engine pulls through a single carb about 1" dia. The vacuum at idle creates the pressure drop we are speaking about. Now we know why Ford supplied a metal shroud or hot air tube to pull heat off the exhaust manifold and into the carb. It ran much better with that hot air pipe installed and the icing went away after the engine warmed up slightly.


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RE: stored batteries

OK, as promised, a couple of photos of the YA 862 tester.
One page of my owner's manual says this is protected by "one or more" of these patents. 3173273; 3208229; 3654768, if anybody know how to get a view of those patent numbers.
Photobucket
Photobucket


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RE: stored batteries

Ray: The Incident I referred to with my 1966 Fleetside was compounded by exactly what your Model T issue was Basic Cause. My Mechanical Heater Valve off the Exhaust Manifold had seized partially open , not enough to prevent the Icing
(Not Black Ice lol ) from Forming . Heck never had that Problem with the Old 1972 Dodge Power Wagon , the Dam Heater flapper never seized , only kept annoying me with its constant clanking. Anyhow thanks for your patience and interesting Super Sonic Sub-cooling rational , I remember asking my Dad as a Kid what the Vapour Trail behind a Domestic / Commercial Air Liner was all about , loved them ice crystal formations during the Northern Lights Displays.


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RE: stored batteries

regarding carb or intake icing, this is a common problem on aircraft,mostly those with float type carbs.The icing occurs most often on mild humid days with ambient temps from 50 to 70 degrees F.The effects are caused by the cooling of the mixture due to the evaporation of the gasoline,the venturi adds a small amount of cooling due to the evaporation of water vapor in the atmosphere under lower pressure. I seem to remember from a physics class 50 years ago "the latent heat of evaporation".At cooler temperatures the atmosphere doesn't have enough moisture to produce much ice in the carb.


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RE: stored batteries

I say when the ford was going down the road at a temp. below or just below freezing with the engine hot while setting and the water in the radiator hot while not moving the below freezing temp (depends on how much below freezing?)can not and will not freeze the radiator you can set there all day long and nothing will freeze. BUT, when you start going down the road at 30+ mph the wind blowing through the radiator plus the themostat closes now you have no circulating water going to the nice warm engine block and back. with sub freezing air traveling through the radiator disapates the heat the radiator water starts to form ice and now the themostat opens and no water will flow, a short time later the temp. gauge pegs all of a sudden. The hesitation of thinking is the gauge right or wrong is enough time for the steam to crack the engine block. How do I know this? (seen it in person when I went to get him) a freind traveling from Arlington TX. to carswell AFB in 1979 with a 72 chevy temp was 22 degrees. He got 5 miles out of town after he got up to highway speed before the engine blew. The radiator was frozen but the engine was HOT. I guess it probably took the themostat couple of cycles and the ice probably turned to slush first. When it comes to radiators temp. and wind does have an effect on them why? "thats the way they were designed" . SO wind will have an effect on water in certain situations.

I came close to this happen to me when I was 16 with my first car a 56 chevy. on nov. day in MO. an the temp at about 20 degrees or so. I started the car I checked the radiator knowing I had very little anti-freeze in it do to a leak couple months back. There was slush in the radiator, being 16 and not to smart yet I was paying attention to everything but the winter temp. so I rolled up some newspaper and lit it, let the idling engine pull the heat from the burning newspapers through the radiator. after about 5 mins the water was nice and hot. Not being too dumb I slowly drove it into town and brought some anti-freeze. when I got to town the water was not frozen solid but the slush was forming, I again got out the lit newspaper thawed out the raditor and drained and added the anti-freeze. This was the only time I even came close to cracking and engine block.

you can talk all you want about water, wind, no effect, want to know for sure? drain the ant-freeze out of your car, drive down the road at 32 degree at 30+ MPH and report back your findings if your so conident?!? no I won't accept a glass of water stuck out the wind cause the glass container is not designed like a radiator IMO cause I'm now paper engineer.

That 56 chevy had a nice space between the radiator and grill! made a nice beer cooler on cool nights well above freezing. now I wonder what cooled the beer HMMMMmmmmmmmm could of been the 30 to 100 MPH wind blowing through the grill???


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RE: stored batteries

RC: Save your Breath Bro ! I think the You can Take a Horse to Water but you can't make him Drink unless you Drown Him Applies Here lol .

dc3: Interesting Air Craft Density Operating Carb effects during Low Ambient Atmospheric Pressure at High Elevation within rather Warm Ambient Temperatures Theory. I'am much more familiar with the Latent Heat of Evaporation as it Relates within Thermodynamic "Enthalpy" L=^H=^U+P^V . I don't know where either of these Principles would come into play with RC's Beer Example , but very interesting none the less lol :)


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RE: stored batteries

"RC: Save your Breath Bro ! I think the You can Take a Horse to Water but you can't make him Drink unless you Drown Him Applies Here lol ."

That's funny.

I have a question. Suppose a very-well-designed experiment was done. Let's say a technician in a snow-white lab coat placed a radiator filled with plain tap water in a controlled environment like an industrial restaurant walk-in fridge or freezer and set the very-well-controlled ambient temperature to a degree or two above freezing. After his careful preparation, he came back in a day or two to check on things and found the radiator water un-frozen.

Then he positioned a multi-speed fan in front of the radiator and ran it at several speeds to simulate the wind. What do you suppose would happen to the water if the AMBIENT TEMPERATURE IN THE ROOM DID NOT CHANGE and the only difference to the pre-fan running and post-fan running conditions was that there was air blowing around?

The answer is that NOTHING different would happen to the water.

I get the feeling that no amount of experimentation will convince some folks. There just seems to be this idea that having a moving vehicle involved somehow tosses junior high-level science out the window.

;-)


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RE: stored batteries

the well-designed theory approach reminds me of USA's NASA cost to develop a ball-point pen that would write in space... while their Russian counterparts simply utilized a pencil.

Mose, ewalk - you guys wanna grab a pointy hat and join me over here in the corner? :)


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RE: stored batteries

"the well-designed theory approach reminds me of USA's NASA cost to develop a ball-point pen that would write in space... while their Russian counterparts simply utilized a pencil. "

Actually, I published that little grin about a decade ago just to provide a light-hearted close to an article. Received a nice letter (from a guy at NASA, I believe) explaining to me how NASA determined that the the graphite dust released from using a pencil would, in a zero-gravity environment, be a hazard to delicate electronics. Therefore, the costs involved in developing that pen were not only justified, but essential to the safety of the Space Program.

Uh, when you guys get to the corner, I'll be the guy already sitting there with a pointy hat... ;)


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RE: stored batteries

Photobob: Carbon Graphite Contamination huum interesting ! I know that that Oxygen Service Equipment preclude the use of any form of Carbon Packing due to potential for spark propagation within Piping Services.

P.S. Break out the Pointed Hats RC You Guys are the Best lol :) .


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RE: stored batteries

OK, I'll put on the pointe hats, where do I get one? but junior high-level science is way over my head! Ok, I amit I skipped out alot, so dumb it down some for us after school gas station employees. what daes nasa stands far?

I will also join in on the Mutiny (as in the Caine Mutiny) and as Commander Queeg had I'll have the steel balls in my pockets, so it put under pressure I will bring them out and roll them around in my hand before I cave in and say all my icing experiences was below freezing. But I will say this it don't take much slush to block the tiny passages of the automobile themostat.

at the end of the trail us pointe heads may find out that this has or had nothing to do with a battery at 16 degrees less than 40% charge?

wow this is the only post of mind that made it pass 50! lets see if it will go to 100? I'm trying to think of some more controversial, aurgumentive, implausible words or terms to add?


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RE: stored batteries

RC: Controversial , Argumentative , Implausible...Wow hate ta have to Coin a Phrase from Ray , but how about Debatable lol !

P.S. Do I hear 75 Roflmbo :)


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RE: stored batteries

It should go 100 easily! "What does NASA stand for?"
National Aeronautics & Space Administration (it ain't rocket science) :>)
I have been discussing the phenom of sub cooling the plain water in an automobile radiator with some friends and I get all sorts of responses (from blank stares to eloquent discourses) and putting it all together, I believe that the sub cooling (removing enough heat to freeze the water) is due to the effect of the engine driven fan situated behind the radiator more than anything else in the process. Though the forward motion of the vehicle does play a role (creation of a high pressure area from "ram air effect"), it is not the sole factor. Driving a vehicle forward at a given speed will cause a small area of high pressure to develop in front of the radiator and grille. This high pressure zone will tend to concentrate the water vapor content of the air and under certain conditions, even result in liquid water being precipitated out of the air mass. The radiator fins & tubes cross section constitutes a "restriction to flow" (analogous to expansion valve in refrigeration speak) The high pressure air mass in contact with the leading edge of the radiator will develop a very high moisture content and the density of the mass will not be able to rush through the radiator core unimpeded. The egine driven fan on the trailing edge of the radiator core is trying to create a low pressure area which will facilitate air flow through the radiator. Because a liquid absorbs heat when going through the process of evaporation, AND a gas also absorbs heat when the gas is rapidly expanding, there are not one, but TWO, processes taking place that may contibute to sub cooling an object below h freezing point of water, even though the ambient air temps are above 32 degrees F. (1) The water vapor that was trying to condense in the air mass at the front of the radiator is now trying to evaporate in the low pressure area. As it undergoes evaporation, it absorbs some heat from the radiator. (2) The air mass itself is now expanding due to the low pressure area created by the engine driven fan, as it expands, it too absorbs some additional heat from the radiator. Both processes might be able to extract enough heat from the radiator to sub cool the radiator (and the water) below 32 degrees F. You see, it's not the magic of air movement (from wind or forward motion) that permits this to happen, it's a complex of refrigeration principles taking place in an unorthodox manner and circumstances, and all the mechanical factors must be present in order for it to happen. That's why simply placing a container of water into a stream of moving air WILL NOT result in the container being sub cooled, but placing a container (radiator) in a situation where ALL the neccessary factors are present very well may result in sub cooling below 32 degrees F even in ambient air temps of 33 or 34 degrees F. By the way, the energy scale using British Thermal Units (BTU) states that to lower the temperature of one pound of water by one degree F, one BTU of heat content must be removed from the pound of water. This ratio of "1 degree per BTU" remains constant until you try to lower the temperature of the water from 33 degrees F to 32 degrees F. When you reach that point, the factor of "Latent heat of freezing (fusion)" comes into play. When water is the medium at hand, an additional 144 BTU must be removed (extracted) from the pound of water before it actually begins to form ice crystals on its way to freezing solid.


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RE: stored batteries

which brings up another "sub-factor"... that of more later model vehicles being equipped with clutched or electrical radiator fans (of which my old ford was not).
If I dimly understand mownie's dissertation, would that also have some effect ?


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RE: stored batteries

"clutched or electrical radiator fans"
I would say that a clutched fan would certainly not be able to develop a low pressure zone during the time frame that the water would freeze because the clutched fan is really just "free wheeling" at road speeds until the heat sensor strip or a bi-metal coil on the front of the fan body picks up enough heat in the air mass that has passed through the radiator due to ram air, or from the low volume of air being drawn through by the slow turning fan if the car is not moving. I believe ram air from forward motion and the low pressure zone behind the radiator must both be present at the same time for this impromptu refrigeration process to occur. I also believe water vapor (relative humidity) is crucial too. So while this might happen where the RH was say 40%, it might not be possible in the desert southwest region where RH can be in the single digit range.


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RE: stored batteries

Well, mownie -
just for curiousity I just checked the local weather here - it's 34 degrees with 67% humidity - which makes it close to a "candidate" nite ?
I honestly can't remember how humid it was that early morning down at Shaw AFB back in 59.. But, I think I remember having to scrape my windshield then as that was another clue that I wus close to trouble with having a frozen radiator.But,I can't be sure.


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RE: stored batteries

The most likely scenario was that the temperature in the story was lower than stated. Temperatures vary considerably across the countryside and it's likely that the temp in the story was well below freezing where the car was driven.


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RE: stored batteries

daystorm - I wus there, you wasn't. And - being born/raised in Minn - I knew/know enuff not to drive a vehicle in subfreezing weather with only water in the radiator.
Plus, the car had sat out all nite since around 5 PM the previous evening - the radiator woulda already been froze if the temp fell below freezing.


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RE: stored batteries

Apparently you didn't know enough to not drive a car in sub freezing weather with just water in it. It froze didn't it. It could have been 33 or 34 when you left but a mile or two away it might have been 32 or maybe even 30. Temps change a lot across the countryside. I think temperature being lower than you thought was the most likely scenario as opposed to the laws of physics changing on that evening.


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RE: stored batteries

stromboy - I doubt you've even been in SC during the winter months or have an idea of that atate's topography. And, go back to read my earlier posts on this. I _do_ (and did) know enuff not to drive a liquid cooled vehicle in sub-freezing weather without antifreeze - in that case, I had no choice except to make the emergency run AFTER first checking to see that my radiator wasn't already froze up.... sheesh.


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RE: stored batteries

There is science, and there is obstinance..........and never the twain shall meet.


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RE: stored batteries

There once was a Man from Pawtucket.....:)


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RE: stored batteries

OK rcbe, Here's what you said, not me. " I remember having to scrape my windshield" I'm assuming you scraped ice off the windshield. That indicates to me the temperature was 32 degrees or lower. You were in freezing temps or below, drove a car with water in the radiator, and it froze.


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RE: stored batteries..stored batteries

Mownie, I read your post above about the effects of the high pressure area in front of the radiator etc etc. I too thought for a while that this might be a contributing factor. Later after thinking about it I decided that wasn't true. Here's why. High pressure forms in front of the radiator...true. High pressure also generates heat. Low pressure on the other side of the radiator absorbs heat...true but where?? Most of the heat absorbed by the low pressure area behind the radiator is actually "behind" the radiator and not in the radiator fin area. Just like in an air conditioner you can feel the heat in front of the expansion valve and cold behind the expansion valve but at the expansion valve area (AKA radiator)the heat and cool reaches an equilibrium and has essentially no effect on cooling the radiator. Likewise any condensation of moisture in front of the radiator would negate any evaporatory cooling that might take place when exiting the radiator fin area.


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RE: stored batteries

Son, I loves yer selective reading.

"OK rcbe, Here's what you said, not me. " I remember having to scrape my windshield" I'm assuming you scraped ice off the windshield. That indicates to me the temperature was 32 degrees or lower. You were in freezing temps or below, drove a car with water in the radiator, and it froze."

Yep. AND, I also said that I had checked the radiator just before starting the car and the water at that point was NOT frozen. Now, the car had sat all nite out in the weather and the radiator had still not frozen - but froze just after the car was started/moving. Ambient temps don't change within a cuppla miles on flat open terrain (Shaw AFB area).
Mownie's theory on this is the only one so far that makes any sense to me.


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RE: stored batteries

My reading is not selective. Your post has all the info needed to prove the point. Ice on the windshield. That means that it was 32 degrees or colder right then and there. (What part of that do you not understand?)
The radiator was NOT frozen yet. That makes sense too because a larger quantity of water takes longer to freeze when the temperature is just right at 32.
So here's what happened whether you agree or not, like it or not, whatever.
You went out to your car, scraped ice off the windshield. Proof that the temperature is 32 degrees or colder right there. Then you checked the radiator and saw water. OK it was real close to freezing right there. You drive a couple miles and it freezes from that huge quantity of 32 degree air flowing through the radiator. Personally I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. It's clear to me that a windshield will freeze quickly as opposed to a radiator full of water when the temp is right at 32.


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RE: stored batteries

Sorry, son - my money's still on mownie.


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RE: stored batteries

Well, I can say for certain that the aforementioned "compressed air driven choke tester" does produce two streams of outlet air, one hot and the other very cold, from a single input of compressed air having a temperature which matches neither of the output streams of air. My bet is that the same processes that make the Hilsch Vortex Tube effect possible, are somehow duplicated (however weak it might be) in other circumstances where the resultant cooling was never a design intent, or even considered when the application was drawn and built. After all, the subject case herein consists of an automobile which has shed enough already heat to be near the freezing point of water, so the additional cooling from any impromptu "Hilsch Effect" (or whatever it would be called) would not require a lot more cooling (even considering the "latent heat of fusion" factor) to produce temperatures lower than 32 F. And to respond to the part about "the low pressure area behind the radiator is actually "behind" the radiator and not in the radiator fin area". That is also not known to be a fact. The restriction to air flow begins at the front edge of the radiator cross section but would reach a maximum restriction value somewhere before reaching the trailing edge of the radiator. Just where that "max restriction point" is located will depend on how great the "head of pressure" in front of the radiator actually is, as well as the strength of the low pressure area (caused by the fan trying to move the air from behind so air will flow through the radiator). If the low pressure area is substantially less than the high pressure in front of the radiator, the "equilibrium of pressure" point could very well be in the center of the cross section of the radiator. Also, I think that just as the Hilsch Vortex Tube demonstrates that heat can be extracted from one stream of air and transferred to the other stream of air in my choke tester, heat content might be encouraged to flow away from the center zone of the high pressure area that develops in front of the radiator, allowing the cooler air along with a higher concentration of condensed (or at least "conentrated") water vapor to flow through the radiator. If "heat of compression" was the only factor able to express itself, the heat of compression in the ram air would raise the temperature of the air flowing through the radiator on the night in question, which therefore should have had the effect of preventing freeze-up.


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RE: stored batteries

Overanalize much? His windshield was frozen over for Pete's sake, that means it was below freezing (or did the Hilsch Vortex cause that also). Water freezes when it is below freezing temperatures. No mystery here people.


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RE: stored batteries

That's correct metal, there was ice and that fact just gets ignored. Mownie, I disagree that the low pressure area could form in the center of the radiator. With such a large "volume" of air the high pressure that forms would remain high pressure until it has somewhere to go to expand. In this case the low pressure area would have to be behind the radiator and would be larger than the area that was compressed in the first place or it wouldn't be low pressure. Lets say you have 10'x10' room full of foam pillows.(AKA air molecules)You cram these pillows into a room that is 2'x2'. (It gets hot from compression) The pillows (air) in the 2x2 room has the "potential" to absorb as much heat as previously made when compressed if released and allowed to expand back to it's original size. This heat absorption would not take place in the 2x2 room. It would be in a large low pressure room where the pillows were released. Like I said before any heat absorption that did occur at the very trailing edge of the radiator would have been offset by the heat already produced by the aforementioned compressed air. (Conservation of energy...that heat has to go somewhere.)
All in all I do not think that at the air pressures we are talking about the heating and cooling effects of expansion and contraction are anywhere near enough to produce enough BTUs to do anything even if you could isolate their effects.
...............The windshield was frozen and that's the one fact that can't be ignored................... Because the temperature was freezing the radiator froze as well.


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RE: stored batteries

"at the end of the trail us pointe heads may find out that this has or had nothing to do with a battery at 16 degrees less than 40% charge? "

It doesn't. But in your original post, you also asked/said this:

"I would think wind chill would also play a part if stored outside? "

Wind chill never has and never will have anything to do with what the actual temperature is. The water in your battery, radiator, dog dish, etc. will not freeze until the temperature causes it to. Wind chill is not, and never will be temperature.

We really should send the radiator scenario to Mythbusters. I'm betting they could spend a few episodes' worth of time playing around with air pressure in front of and behind the radiator, varying humidity levels, varying radiator designs, varying anything-else-you-could-come-up-with, and still not duplicate water freezing in a radiator when the ambient temperature is above freezing. At least not at any pressures/densities/humidity levels/etc. that would EVER occur with the aforementioned combination of road speed, ambient temperature, and/or low pressure air behind the radiator.

The original frozen radiator scenario posted in this thread is simply not the first and only time someone has driven a vehicle down the road with nothing but plain water in the cooling system at whatever the ambient temperature and humidity happened to be at the time.

;-)


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RE: stored batteries

On the other end of the spectrum is another similar discussion. The Space Shuttle. I have always been told that the heating on reentry was caused by friction of the air rushing past the Space Shuttle as it encounters the earth's atmosphere upon reentry. Now they are saying that the heating is caused by...guess what??...air pressure that builds up in front of the shuttle on the shock wave caused by going way over supersonic speeds......


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RE: stored batteries

and as she nervously looked into her rear view mirror, wondering if the person flashing their lights at her was a madman or not.She didn't realize it was only rcmoser just wondering if his battery was about to freeze...


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RE: stored batteries

Mmmmm just the other day freind said his battery frozen on the way to work???? How could that be, it started the old 68 ford truck and was less than a year old (walmark cheap battery) He drove a few miles at road speed pulled in to get coffee and a fat pill. Guess what his truck would not start, just click, now the 9 degrees wind blowing down the radiator whipping around the engine bay had nothing to do with it nor did the temp. It just frozen solid from being a cheap A@@ battery, had nothing to do with being discharged, well below freezing, nothing to do with it setting outside all night, and three the CFW while going down the road? even though the battery was not frozen from being outside all night and started the truck and the alt. charging the battery while driving down the CAFR at 9 degrees.

And just the other morning at 32 to 33 degrees on the way to work there was NO ICE on the road or in the mud puddles, and snow was melting, But when I rounded the Big A@@ water tank on the back side where the water was tricking across the road guess what was on the payment ICE. Could it of been the wind or lack of on that side of the tank????? and why did the ICE only form on that side of the water tank and not on the other side. O I see it was well below freezing on the other side and well above freezing on the other side a few feet away!

Nope, not worried about my batteries, oil changes, air filters, radiators, or ANY thing else. you see this Had nothing to do with winter, cold, ICE, batteries, Climite change, gas prices, NASA, the price of rice in china, or the dirt farm I thinking about buying, nor the fact that I don't have car payments, house payments, credit card payments, LT tractor payments, or any payments. Old Rc Moser has learned alot in the 59 some odd years without the silver spoon in my mouth or a liberial brain wash at college.


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RE: stored batteries

Tom : From now on I'll keep eye Peeled for Flashing lights with a completely different Rational lol :)


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RE: stored batteries

Anyone who does not think Wind Chill has any factor on batteries or anything other then human flesh.Just does not have a clue what wind chill is.I live in the midwest flat prarie land.Out in the country with nothing to stop the wind.It gets cold out here. But in the near by towns where the wind just does not blow like it does out here because there are buildings to stop the wind.You have a lot less cold weather problems.

If wind chill has no affect on batteries.Then why do we have battery failures after strong winds in the winter?Meaning if we do not park are vehicals out of the wind.If there in a garage no heat or insulation it starts but if its out in the cold its a dead battery.Or even just parking it next to a building or covering blocking the wind with a canvas helps.

I have seen large equipment start when its cold.But put it on a transport trailer and haul it 50 miles in the same temp.Then try to start it and its a no go.

So all the scientific BS just does not fly.Windchill does affect batteries and mechanical things.


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RE: stored batteries

Johndeere and all of you believers in wind chill effect on inanimate objects - I suggest you visit the Wickipedia site, it has an excellent explanation of wind chill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill


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RE: stored batteries

Can we say 200 posts in this thread?


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RE: stored batteries

It is truly amazing that someone can call "something" they do not understand "scientific BS". Farmers use more real science everyday than the average person and they of all people should realize that.
As to the original post. Nobody ever said that "windchill" doesn't do "anything". What we said was: 1)Windchill is a term created to describe the feeling of cold wind at various speeds on human skin. 2)More importantly and probably the crux of the matter. Wind itself does not bring a temperature of an object down lower than the temperature of the wind itself. Where a lot of misunderstanding seems to have occurred is right there, involving the winds cooling effect. Of course wind brings the temp of objects down rapidly and far quicker than the same object sitting in a barn or out of the wind. If the air temp has been 34 degrees all day and then drops to 12 degrees at night all objects will be cooling down at different rates according to various factors. Tractor "A" out in the middle of a windy field cools rapidly down to 12 degrees in the 15 mph wind because of the wind's rapid cooling effect. Tractor "B" sitting in the middle of an unheated but otherwise tightly built barn cools down way, way slower because of many other factors. The barn and all objects in there including the earth it is sitting on radiate their heat into the air by convection, radiation, and etc etc. They do not have the rapidly moving air to cool them down except on the very outside "skin" or "siding" of the barn which by the way cools down
quickly. Tractor "C" on a flatbed truck transport cools down to the air temperature the quickest of all because of the hwy speed air blowing over it. (What you will not see however is tractor 'C" cooling down lower than the ambient temperature.)
So why does the tractor "B" in the barn start and the tractor "A" in the field not start? If you could measure the "core" temperature of the tractor you would find that the field tractor is as cold as the wind temp through and through as long as the wind kept blowing. The barn tractor is considerably warmer because of ground heat and slower heat loss because of protection from the wind inside the barn. In summary the wind definitely cools objects quickly. No question about that. The wind alone does not however cool objects down below the air temperature itself.


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RE: stored batteries

Ray : I think you are trying to offer a Olive Branch (Maybe) "The Wind alone does not however cool objects down below air temperature itself". Yes we all (already know that) I think we do ? .. well at least most of us ! But what I was "originally was suggesting was that "Extreme Colder" Prevailing (Northern) Winds could and do "Very Quickly" change the "Current" (Ambient) Air Temperature. Yes and you are Probably correct that I was previously describing Ice Formation , who cares if you call it Black Ice ! Also further Wind Chill in Theory and Real Time was as I illustrated a Human Issue initiated via the Military from Hypothermia Related Studies of Human Exposure to Extreme Cold Conditions within the Arctic. I agree with you on that . But you have "Finally" concluded that Cold Winds can have an effect on causing less than Optimum Effect on Stored Batteries , perhaps even to the Ultimate Effect (freezing) . The last time I recall Cold Weather was normally brought into effect from Prevailing Winds bring into Place a Colder Ambient Air Front . Wow that only took less than 200 Posts...perhaps less worries of Supersonic speed and more attention to Northern Clippers would have put you wise to things that took Rcbe and JD most likely less than 59 Yrs to Understand , but you over 60 Posts to Comprehend ! We all have our perspectives and life's experiences , so why is it that you cannot agree to disagree , Self Esteem Issues Dude ? Have to look down your Nose at other's to find satisfaction in your own position in Life .. Yes I 'am certainly finding you very Entertaining Indeed ! Just not all that Amusing !!


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RE: stored batteries

My diagnosis is CABIN FEVER.
Take a BIG dose of artificial sunlight and call me in the morning.


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RE: stored batteries

I could use some warm sunlight for sure. We don't have the snow or ice that they have in the eastern USA but we have sure been getting rain. Double the yearly average in 2009 and well on our way to new records in 2010. It's cold too. My yard is like a soaked sponge. Can't do anything outside. Short days...man I hate this time of year and cold wet weather. Give me a sunny 75 degree day, no wind or just a gentle breeze, low humidity, and my green grass that needs mowing. I'm happy. Check the picture in the link. That's what I'm talking about. (not mine)

Here is a link that might be useful: sunny lawn


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RE: stored batteries

Well, I hate to add any more salt to the already massive wound, but before me I have an Aircraft engine ground run ambient temperature/Dew point icing chart. when running aircraft jet engines ICE may form with temps. up to 46 degrees with dew point 5 to 30 with visible moisture in the air. Which means the air movement at a rappert pace (wind) can and will cause Ice to form in air inlets, therefore the ant-icing system has to be activated. So if wind can't cause moisture to freeze above 32 degree then why is there a big warning in test run and flight books? Also top alcohol dragsters have the same problem on cool nights well above freezing.I guess you could call these BIG Hilsch Vortexes!!!!!!!!!!

I also ran fighter engines in hush houses in these same temperatures/dew points well above freezing and has seen my own snot freeze on my mustash due to the rapent amount of air flow inside these facilities when jet engines are operating.

IMO there is big difference between liquid water and water residue or visuable moisture in the air on a surface, naturally liquid water would take longer to loose it heat (not in a design to cause rapent heat loose like a RADIATOR) vs. thin layers or visuable moisture like frost or that nasty word that started all of this black ice.

I know this is not a good comparision to the topic, but to say water can't freeze above 32 degree is BS in certain coditions.


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RE: stored batteries

rc, The icing effect you are talking about take place because of a great pressure drop. That fact has been at the center point of this discussion. In an airplane engine that pressure drop takes place in reverse (for lack of a better explanation) Piston engines pull a vacuum on the intake manifold. At small throttle openings the outside humid air/fuel mixture is sucked into the manifold and encounters the extremely low pressure of that vacuum. There it expands rapidly and the fuel vaporizes both of which soak up heat. Under certain conditions this pressure drop can form ice if enough moisture is present. The effect is exactly how an air conditioner works to "make cold" on a hot summer day. Only the high pressure refrigerant going through an expansion valve into an evaporator is where the cooling effect takes place. In the case of your radiator freezing we had an extended discussion about how this same effect might cause the freezing you spoke about experiencing. The problem with that effect happening to your radiator was that 1) There is very little pressure difference between the front of the radiator and the back of the radiator. Also the heating and cooling effects that could happen even in theory would be self canceling so to speak. Freezing just doesn't happen from minor pressure drops like those on a radiator at typical highway speeds. So anyway, What I was saying all along was that a radiator or whatever object that is out there in the wind is cooled down to the temperature of the wind itself and not cooler under normal conditions. Your windshield was already frozen so your radiator was so close to freezing that it wasn't long before it froze from the wind which was below freezing. (That below freezing air is what froze your windshield before you left)


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RE: more stored batteries

After reading your post again I realize you are speaking of jet engines. Not trying to be facetious here. Anyway the entire cooling effect from either source is caused by pressure drops and evaporation. Compress air...it gets hot.(AKA a diesel engine) Release air pressure and it soaks up heat. (gets cold)Evaporate water it soaks up heat. Condense a gas to liquid it gets hot. Same effect whether in a piston engine, jet engine, or a/c.


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RE: stored batteries

I also thought of something else when I use to have outside temp gauge in my truck. I noticed that on top of hills the temp. was what was said on the news and and the bottom of hills (cold air sinks) the temp. could be 2 to 4 degrees lower. This maybe some of the problem when most of us go by weather reports of temp. if very well could of been below freezing at a lower location.


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RE: stored batteries

None of my remarks were directed at the people of Canada as anyone but you can see. No surprise there.
Well, that last post was a good example of what you do best. Inaccurate, exaggerated, and random information laced with profanity and pseudo-technical terms that are inserted to try to impress a non-existent audience. Perhaps if you at least attempt to post a contributory answer once in a while you might enjoy it more. Your profanity laden, adolescent replies to my disagreements with you point out your true nature.


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RE: stored batteries

"I have seen large equipment start when its cold.But put it on a transport trailer and haul it 50 miles in the same temp.Then try to start it and its a no go. "


I'm in the frigid, unshielded, windy Midwest as well. North Dakota. ;-)

I'm a mechanic at a rental dealer, so getting equipment started in cold, windy weather is a daily occurrence for me. I don't go out to fire up a tractor once in a while to move snow or something similar....it's every day. Several types of equipment, several times per day. After twenty or so years worth of doing it, I can pretty much tell you when I get to work at 7 am what stuff is going to start, and what isn't. If the machinery has sat without running for a few hours, it never makes a bit of difference how windy it is....or isn't. If it'll start at zero degrees, then it'll start at zero degrees with a twenty mph wind.

The end-users tend to be more aggravated when it's windy and they're trying to get something going, but that's because the wind chill is affecting them...not the machine.

There have been times we've left stuff running while it's riding down the highway on the semi, but it's not because the ride is making it *colder*. It's simply because we know that even though it's below zero, (often WELL below zero), what's going to happen at the jobsite is that as soon as the machine is idled off of the trailer, some operator will hop on it and put the pedal to the floor. Not only is it not very equipment-friendly, it's also unproductive.

You should hear 'em complain when hydraulic functions aren't responsive, or transmissions are sluggish for the first half hour or so.

;-)


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RE: stored batteries

That makes sense.


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RE: stored batteries

  • Posted by larso1 So. CO Zone 5 (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 14, 10 at 17:52

Wow, I just looked into this thread, thought it would be boring until I saw how many replies there were!

My thoughts: sorry to a lot of you guys, but I back rdaystrom's explanations, not that that will change anything or that anyone will care LOL!

One thing I might add on the radiator story is the skin effect of still air on a surface, which can significantly increase the resistance to heat loss (R-value) through the wall in question, be it building construction or the tube wall of a liquid to air heat exchanger (radiator). It was noted that there was no wind through the night. The skin resistance can be a significant adder in the heat loss calculation, and wind (or moving air) destroys the skin effect. So the heat in the water could last quite a while sitting in still air, but quickly dissipate when on the road, at the same ambient temp (must be @ or below 32-deg.F. to freeze of course). And if you have a car with an outside air temp indicator, you know that the outdoor air temp can change several degrees up and down on a 10-mile trip. At least those are my thoughts on that subject.

As to wind chill, maybe you've heard that they're talking about removing it from the daily weather news due to its lack of meaningful information (how the air temp feels on your skin) and because of its potential for misuse in safety considerations.

On those vortex coolers, I've bought a couple of those from McMaster Carr to cool electrical enclosures where I work... it uses a lot of compressed air though, but are a quick fix if you already have the 100-psi CA supply.

When I hit black ice in Denver c.1974 at about 7:00AM, it was unbelievably slick. And, it had no sheen to it! The asphalt was non-reflective, flat black. No amount of steering input had any effect on the direction I was going, very scary, but I slid safely onto the grass shoulder. Many were not so fortunate. I had never heard of it before, and I've never experienced true black ice since.


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RE: stored batteries

larso1, Good post. I agree with your thoughts on the subject and appreciate your backing. Having ridden motorcycles in all seasons and climates I can assure you that you are right about the outside air temperature varying up and down several degrees on a ten mile trip. About the black ice subject. Like your experience, mine was shocking as well and I have only seen true black ice that 1 time in a large quantity. It was so slick an Olympic ice skater would have trouble standing on it. Just kidding in a way but not really. It was truly the slickest thing I had ever seen. And you could not see it at all. I was amazed by it but even more I was so thrilled that I managed to get the two million dollar medical coach through it without a crash. Needless to say I was about as nervous as you can get for a while.


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"Having ridden motorcycles in all seasons and climates I can assure you that you are right about the outside air temperature varying up and down several degrees on a ten mile trip."

might that just be another case of feeling different levels of wind chill ?


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RE: stored batteries

Ask any biker that has ridden much. Temps change by several degrees across the countryside. Sometimes it is predictable and other times it is random. Going down into a valley drops the temp considerably. It almost is shocking when you're out there at night riding without a good jacket. Temps are marginal, almost too cold, then you see a valley coming up and it's,"Oh great I'm about to freeze for a minute or two till I get out of this valley." The temperature changes I have seen like that I have also verified with my various different vehicles with outside temperature sensors.


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RE: stored batteries

I rode 2 wheelers too for any yrs.. ain't nothing to shock you like comin out from behind a grove of trees and then having that cold 25 MPH N/W wind smack you in the face - that's wind chill. Also drove 18 wheelers for years... allus hadta watch out for road icing on mountain I-states. Tried those cab mounted thermometers - ended up going back to watching the spray off my drivers to detect/confirm actual road icing.


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RE: stored batteries

Yep , fondly remember heading through the Smokey Mountains just North of Ash-ville N.C. back in 1980 and being introduced to Practical Dew Point Characteristics while leaving the Base to the Summit on my Harley FLHC . I think the elevation change was approx. 1200' perhaps someone can correct me if i'am wrong , but hell yes you certainly felt the Thermal Temperature variations on that 90 Mile Trip through the mountains from Gatlinburg Tennesee . Good to see everyone still on topic , hope the weather is good with all , it's crazy warm hear in Vancouver , Great Hockey ! The Top Teams are all getting a run for Their Money , have Box Seats for USA / Canada Game via my Son , should be a Barn Burner ! 1st time I have used my Laptop since arriving . Well Chow all see ya when I get back next week..Ty ! :)


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Surely there are more opinions out there on windchill and batteries! TTT!


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Nah were all stuck in a gorge trying to collectively find a way out tttt he...he !

Hows it going Metal ?


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I'll be glad when this winter is long gone. I'm looking forward to some warmer weather. I wish I had two homes. One in Australia and one in USA. I could just follow the warm weather. Winter is not something I enjoy. I like a good snow once in a while for a day or two but that's about enough. Around here we just get miserable, wet, rainy, and cold winters that are good for nothing. This winter is lasting way too long. The two previous years (2008 & 2009) I had fully green Bermuda by March 15th and was mowing. This year (2010) the Bermuda is fully dormant on March 9th. Still rainy and cold. Today was a little better though. Temperature was 74...I got outside but the yard was like a wet sponge from yesterdays downpour.


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Well not quite that warm here yet . 50 F is real warm here for this time of the yr. I hope to get out for some Ice fishing on Mar 8th for a long weekend . Won't know till just before I leave whether to bring the Snowmobile or Quad , Strange Winter Ice won't last long at this rate. Must admit that I don't mind the idea of a Early Spring though...guess I'am just getting Old .


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One time my truck was sitting in front of my house and the temperature was too cold to even register on the temp guage (under 100F), but I drove it into the wind for 20 miles without water in the radiator and it overheated. I thought the wind chill would keep the engine cool or possibly freeze it up completely? I guess I didn't drive fast enough?


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I guess you truck engine is not air cooled HAA, HAAA, HAA? come on metal this was dead and buried!


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Interesting thread. There may be a simple explanation regarding the phenomenon of water freezing in the radiator of a car that's in motion. Hot water freezes faster than cold water. Once the engine has heated the water it becomes more prone to freezing as it passes thru the radiator when outside ambient temps are at or below freezing.


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RE: stored batteries

" Hot water freezes faster than cold water."
OK, time for the debunking squad to "suit up".
This old myth has been around for as long as there has been hot water plumbing in houses. I don't know if some old plumber got this going (with a twinkle in his eye) to see how many people he could dupe, or if it came about from misinterpretation of the facts or what. The basis of how the myth originated has been variously explained, but the most likely reason it became popular has nothing to do with laws of physics. Instead, it is because of the way people use the hot, or the cold, water in their home. Typically, the hot water half of the system gets called on much less than the cold water. This means that the water standing in the pipes on the hot side has a better chance to be cooled below the freezing point than the cold water side. And when folks leave a faucet "trickling" on a cold night to prevent the pipes from freezing, it's the cold water that is let to trickle. There again, no replenishment of warmth on the hot water pipes. Plumbers often say that they replace or repair pipes on the hot side more than the cold side after a bitter cold snap. But not because "hot water freezes first or faster".


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RE: stored batteries

Hey RC how much did ya pay Metal to Revive this one lol ~
Just for the fun of it here goes ! This Phenomenon should get better Mileage than Black Ice . I think the Mpemba Effect
is what would best describe this Theory of Freezing Aqueous
Solutions . This has been discussed as far back as Aristotle . The American Journal of Scientific Studies is what I read during College along with numerous tests in our Liquids in Suspension and Transitions Lab . I'll leave the Final Equation of Fact up to You all . I known Mownie will be interested .


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RE: stored batteries

My statement: In order to freeze water, you must remove heat. If you stand 2 identical volumes of water, only difference being that one has been heated to 140 degrees F while the other one is at 78 degrees F, into a location where the ambient temperature is 0 degrees F, the sample that was initially 78 degrees F will be the first one to begin showing ice. It will also be the first one to freeze solid. Because the 140 degree sample contained more heat (BTU) when placed into the 0 degree F environment, it will take longer for it to lose enough heat for ice to begin forming. By this time, the other sample will already be showing a significant amount of ice formation.


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RE: stored batteries

What if you had cold water and no wind, and hot water with a 50mph wind blowing on it? Which would freeze first then?


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RE: stored batteries

"In order to freeze water, you must remove heat." Agreed, but under some conditions hot water freezes quicker. I'm guessing that this must have something to do with water having less surface tension at higher temperatures, thus under some conditions hot water losses it's heat quicker. There again, this is just me speculating and I'm not a chemist,just a plain ole country boy that was blessed with a little bit of common sense.


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So maybe the heat from the engine heated the water, therefore making it freeze quicker? : )


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I think this thread can hit 200...


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I'll help.
It is 7:36 AM CDT on Saturday.
We have had a beautiful heavy white frost overnight.
Ice crystals only form/develop at 32 degrees F.
Yet the ambient air temperature has only reached 34 degrees F overnight.
Could the frost have formed as a result of "evaporative cooling"?
Or did the frost "fall out of the air" as my grandmother used to say?


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RE: stored batteries

Must be Black Ice formation from Wind Chill Theory , how say you Ray ? Sorry off to Deer Camp , let me know the outcome Roflmbo :)


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RE: stored batteries

Mownie's been right on this one all along. There is always confusion between how temperature effects matter and how temperature effects humans.

Temperature on matter effects the kinetic energy in the matter. Temperature on humans is felt as the "rate of heat loss". Humans want to be at 98.6F. No more, no less. When the ambient temperature is around 70F and you add the heat generated by the pumping of the heart and average movement, the human body reaches the 98.6 and pure happiness ensues.

When we lower the temperature the rate of heat loss increases. Most people will say they are cold, but it is actually "the rate of heat loss" they are feeling. If you add a wind to this, the rate of heat loss will increase and humans will say they are colder. They should really be saying that their rate of heat loss is higher but they don't.

Anyway, wind chill has no effect on matter except to get it to the actual temperature quicker, but on living beings this increase in heat loss becomes the same as lower temperature.

By the way to test this. Go into your cold shed and touch a piece of metal and then touch a piece of cloth. You have to agree that if both materials have been in there all night they are both the same temperature. So why is the metal feeling so much colder then the cloth. Only because the metal is sucking away your heat quicker then the cloth. As humans we would say the metal is colder, but it is not.

So in a nutshell, human's do not feel temperature, they only feel heat loss. Hope that makes sense.


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RE: stored batteries

some wonderful theories expounded in this thread, but still ain't sure how that old '51 ford froze up... and I'll still park a tractor out of the prevailing wind if I hafta leave it outside overnite in the winter... better chance of starting it next morning.


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RE: stored batteries

Here is the next temperature trivia question for those in the upper Northern Hemisphere. If the sun is as far north as it is going to get on June 21, why do the highest temperatures usual come in around July, after the sun has moved away a little?


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RE: stored batteries

Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?


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RE: stored batteries

"Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?" You could also put your girlfriend in the same room and ask for a comparison. My guess is, temps would rise....


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RE: stored batteries

"Can anybody explain how a wife's feet can be below freezing in a room that is at 75 degrees?"

That is a blood circulation issue.

"If the sun is as far north as it is going to get on June 21, why do the highest temperatures usual come in around July, after the sun has moved away a little?"

and that is a thermal mass issue. The earth's incredibly large thermal mass requires time to heat up. So the sun's energy may be higher in the 3rd week of June but it gets sucked away by the cold earth. Finally around July the earths temperature allows the sun's heat to result in higher ambient temperatures.

Anyway, I mention this because when dealing with matter, we can increase or decrease the rate of temperature change by adding or removing air or moving liquid, etc, but we still have to account for it's thermal mass. Your push mower is going to cool down a lot quicker then your lawn tractor.


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RE: stored batteries

JHC talking about coming back from the dead! GGGzzzzzzzzzzzzz z I have read all of this and desided to by VW (older VW so I don't have to worry about water freezing). O yes I will remove the battery and push start it when AIR temps approaches 32 degrees!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: stored batteries

Reincarnation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Hee, Hee!!


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