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Briggs 16 V-Twin Won't Start

awedge
12 years ago

Looks like I might be able to get some help here so thought I'd Try. Grab a beer or some coffee, it's a long one.

I have a Briggs and Stratton 16 hp V-twin Model# 305447 Type=0079-E1 that in mounted in my van used to run carpet cleaning equipment. Last week the engine started running rough and was putting out terrible exaust and gas fumes inside the vehicle. If you gave full throttle it would throttle up but not to top speed. I got to looking around and found a head gasket leak. I got the gaskets and replaced them, figured while I have it apart Might as well rebuild the carb too. Did both. Re-installed the engine and now it just will not start, as if it is dead. First thing to do - fresh charge on the battery = nothing. Tried crossing over from the solenoid to the starter and nothing = replaced the starter, still dead. Took the battery + cable and touched it to the starter, it turned over but would not start, starter must be good = replace the solenoid, still dead. Guessed maybe the ignition switch might be bad, if you turn it to the first position, the electric water pump comes on but turn all the way to start and dead. Put new ignition switch in = still dead.

At this point I have no clue where to even look next, my only thought is the points/ignition coils. But this just seems that it would not give spark to the plugs, not keep it from tuning over at all??? Am I wrong on this, I think I have pretty much replaced everything on the electrical side for starting. At this point I don't even know if the gaskets and carb worked because it won't start. I am losing a ton of money and any help would be great!! Thanks in advance.

Art

Comments (30)

  • bill_kapaun
    12 years ago

    Jumper 12V to the SMALL terminal of the solenoid.
    That will test the battery, solenoid & starter motor.

    IF it cranks "normally", that would mean you aren't getting 12V to the small terminal in the "start" position of the key switch.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    OK, If I jumper the positive lead to the small terminal all I get is a clicking (sounds like the solenoid). The only way it will crank the engine is if I cross over to the starter lead.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    If you can only get the starter to operate by connecting Battery + to the cable post ON THE STARTER itself, that sort of implies an open in the starter cable between the solenoid output post and the starter.
    But if you can jump between both big posts right there on the solenoid itself and spin the starter, then there's no defect in that cable.
    Your last post sure seems like the solenoid is working but the starter cable is not working!

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Yeah let me restate this just to make sure I am clear (speak well - type, not so much), I can jumper from the positive post to the starter post (connect both big posts on solenoid) and it will crank but that is the only way it will crank with exception of putting battery + directly to the starter, that tuns it over also. So, that kinda means the starter cable is fine correct?
    Got a question on the ignition switch, according to the Briggs site it is a 6 terminal key start ignition part# 092377MA and yes it has 6 terminals on the back for the plug. Although the wire harness only uses 5 of the 6. I found a 5 terminal locally only missing the one that was not being used. Would this make a difference? I tried the 5 terminal (fits wire harness perfect) but it also did nothing.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    OK, and when you jumper from the battery + post of the solenoid over to the small post of the solenoid (see image below), you can hear/feel the solenoid click? but the starter does nothing ?
    If you connect a volt meter as shown in the image and you DO NOT show battery voltage on the meter when you jump to the small terminal, the solenoid is defective. You can use a test light instead of a volt meter.
    The image depicts a "bench test" of solenoid, so, if you have the solenoid bolted down securely, disregard the reference to a battery negative cable. But the solenoid mounting tabs do need to be attached to a ground for it to work.

    {{gwi:322130}}

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    As to your first question, I didn't feel the solenoid but yes that is what I heard repeatedly clicking while jumping from positive post to the small post. Maybe should have mentioned there are two small posts but only one was in use (original configuration).

    Just used a voltage meter as shown and get a reading of 9 DC. But I only get this reading on the small post that is not being used. The small post that has two wires on it gives me no reading (move wires to other post and results are the same) Checked battery positive lead as well with volt meter and got 13 DC. So just to repeat it is a 4 post/doubler pole solenoid, only one small post is being used. If i jumper over to the unused small post I get 9 DC on the starter side. Move the wires from one small post to the other and the results are the same. Whatever post has the two small wires on them I get no reading but it does start the electric water pump that is on the machine.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    A "4 poster" solenoid might require that a separate wire be run from the "unused small post" to a chassis or engine ground.
    Some 4 posters can be mounted on a metal surface and the 4th post is not needed because the solenoid is also grounded through the mounting tabs.
    Some 4 poster solenoids REQUIRE that a separate ground wire be added because the solenoid was built without an internal connection to the mounting tab case. These solenoids are typically intended to be used where an additional safety interlock switch can provide a ground on demand.
    Both types of 4 posters look the same at a glance, but they don't work alike. One is grounded if it mounts to metal, the other needs a separate ground wire.
    Try adding a ground to the unused small terminal and report back your results.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Hey, you ARE THE MAN. That problem solved. I grounded the unused post and turned the key, crank crank crank. However it will not seem to fire. I do not have a plug tester but put the voltage meter + into the plug wire and grounded it on the engine block. Got up to 29 AC on one side and 24 on the other. I am guessing that means I have spark??

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    ***"Got up to 29 AC on one side and 24 on the other. I am guessing that means I have spark??"***
    No, that does not mean you have spark, it means you are attempting to abuse your volt meter by improper use:^)
    Testing for spark can be done by inserting a spark plug into the spark plug boot and then lay the metal body of the plug against a metal surface of the engine where you can see the spark gap of the plug, then crank the engine and watch for spark.
    But before you decide you do, or don't.....have spark, try priming the carburetor with a short 1 second shot of spray carb cleaner into the open throat of the carb. If the engine tries to run for a second or 2 on this amount of fuel, forget about spark because your problem is in the fuel system.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Well, used all my carb cleaner when I rebuilt it so I just put a small bit of gas in the carb instead and it did indeed start for a second or two. I replaced the main fuel line from the tank to the filter and checked the others for blockage. My guess it filter or fuel pump??? Parts stores are closed today so I am in hurry up and wait mode I guess.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    OK, we will focus on fuel related issues.
    Fuel pump output can be checked by taking the fuel hose loose where it connects to carb. Put the loose end of hose into a catch container (soda bottle) and crank the engine with starter. If fuel pump is delivering properly you should see some fairly large spurts of gas being shot into the bottle.
    If no fuel delivery, check all the hoses connecting to the fuel pump, especially the vac/pulse hose. If the vac/pulse hose is loose, cracked, or collapsed, the fuel pump can become inoperative.
    A more complex test to determine if the carb is functional is to try running the engine with a gravity feed fuel tank instead of the onboard fuel pump.
    But this is something that is not feasible for most folks (at home) and I cannot casually recommend anybody try cobbling together an auxiliary gravity feed tank......too many possibilities for fire if not done in a sound fashion.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Yeah, I don't think I have a way to try the gravity tank. The machine currently draws from a 5 gal marine tank. I cleaned and inspected all the hoses when I rebuilt the carb. Only the main line from the tank to the filter was dry and brittle so I replaced that one. I will try checking the pumps output and report back.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Disconnected the fuel line from the carb and tuned the engine over repeatedly. At first no gas came out at all. The marine can I use has a primer bulb on it so I pumped it until I got gas to flow out the hose. Then tried cranking it and got no spurts as you mentioned but gas did begin to trickle/run into the glass container. Not sure what the flow should be but it was putting it out.

    Is it at all possible I may need adjust the valves like I see in so many post on here? When I replaced the head gaskets the vavles were just covered in dirt and grime. I scraped, brushed and cleaned until they were shiny new again but they looked really bad.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Valve adjustment will have no effect on the fuel pump.
    Have you checked the condition of the vac/pulse hose?
    You state that you have a "marine can" as your fuel supply.
    You could use the primer bulb to move some fuel through the Briggs OEM fuel pump and into the carb. Your problem at this point might only be that the fuel pump is too weak to effectively draw fuel through the fuel filter (how old did you say the filter is?) and fill the float bowl.
    If you can "force prime" some fuel using the primer bulb, you might just get back to the cleaning business instead of mechanic-ing.
    {{gwi:319028}}

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Fuel filter was replaced about 100 or so hours ago. If the Vac/Pulse hose is the one that goes strait into the valve cover, yes checked it. On this set up is only about 1 3/4" long. I can see from end to end it is clear of obstruction and in very good shape.

    Just a Note if this may help. As mentioned earlier, I poured some gas directly into the carb and it tried to start/run for 2 seconds but If I force fuel in with the primer bulb I have no such luck.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    OK, vac/pulse hose good.
    Does the carburetor have a fuel solenoid valve attaching to the bottom of the fuel bowl?
    If yes, can you feel it "click" when the key switch is turned to ON?

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Yeppers, the moment you turn the key to the first position you can hear it click.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Remove the float bowl and see if any fuel has found its way to the bowl. If the bowl is near empty, look and see if the needle valve is stuck closed. It might be a good idea to try positioning a catch cup under the carb to catch the fuel as you remove the bowl, otherwise it will be hard to judge how much fuel was in the bowl.
    Either fuel is not getting into the carb, or it ain't getting out of the carb.
    If you catch enough gas that the bowl should have been near full, we need to suspect blockage in the main jet or a stuck fuel solenoid plunger valve.
    Did you have compressed air to blow out the carb when you cleaned it? or was this a "simple wash-out with spray carb cleaner"? And did you probe into the small passages of the carb with a very fine wire?

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    There is no float bowl to remove. If I remove the float assembly (looks kinda like a plastic retainer for a kids braces) everything else is metal/part of the carb.

    When I had the carb off, I bought the overhaul kit and went through two cans of carb cleaner cleaning it out, inserting the little tube on the can in every hole or spot I could find - then re-built it. This is not to say there is no clog in there but I was pretty thorough.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Oh geez, you're so right. This carb is nothing like my Vanguard 350777.
    But anyhow, if you take the top of the carb off, is there fuel standing in the fuel reservoir (aka "bowl")?

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    OK, gave it a few cranks first assuming that would send some gas in there. Pulled the top off and removed the float. Entire inside is dry as a bone.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    OK, try this just to make sure that something is not obstructing the fuel inlet (needle and seat passage).
    Connect a short length of fuel hose to the carb fuel inlet nipple. Now try to blow through the hose using your mouth/lungs. With the carb top removed, you should be able to hear the air coming in through the needle/seat.
    If you can't hear air coming in like that, something is obstructing the fuel inlet or needle/seat area.
    If you can hear air entering the carb inlet, then you have either a defective fuel pump, or something is wrong with the marine tank/fuel lines.
    While you have the top off the carb, fill the bowl with gasoline before putting the top back on. When the top is back on, try to start it. If everything is satisfactory with the carb itself, you should get about 30 to 40 seconds run off the fuel in the bowl (your results may vary).

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Pulled the carb inlet hose off the fuel pump and tried blowing through it as you mentioned. Sure enough, I could not force air into the carb (top was removed). It is blocked solid. Will see what I can do this morning to get it cleared.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Here is what I found to be I THINK the problem, There is a "U" shaped pin holding in the float, when I tighten the screws to put the top plate back on it is pushing down on the float and the inlet pin not allowing the gas to enter. With the top off and the float out I can get gas to go in the carb. I am going to try and close the gap on that pin or just put the old one back in. Still seemed to run quit rough when it started.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Well, feel like a big dummy at this point. I didn't realize the carb float actually connected to the float needle. That is why it was not getting gas. The float was holding the Needle down the way I had it in there. Corrected that and there is no problem getting gas to the carb now. However, it still won't start. Now when I turn it over, the carb is just blowing gas out the top (looks like a 12" gyser of gas mist). Anyone?

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    The float and needle valve must be adjusted to a very exact position, really no such thing as a "ball park estimate" for this specification.
    My suspicions are that when the float arm was resting atop the needle instead of attaching to it, you bent the float arm to an exaggerated over full position.
    If you want to e-mail me for some screen shots on your carb float adjustment procedure I can comply.
    Confirm that your carb uses overhaul kit # 809021.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Mowie, you are correct. The kit was 809021 for my unit. Incase I forgot, I really can not thank you enough for all your help.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    OK, if you want picture..........send me e-mail. Because you chose not to enable e-mail protocol when you joined, I can't get your e-mail from the forum.

  • awedge
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    awedge at wi.rr.com

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Done. Been "offline" since Wednesday night at 11:15 PM.
    Severe storms came through. We (along with 25,000+ other customers) suffered power outages due to trees/limbs taking out poles and wires. Power restored to our street about 8:55 CDT this morning.

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