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cedarghost

Briggs Intek 25 hp smoking from exhaust

cedarghost
12 years ago

I just bought this mower yesterday and the guy I bought it from SWEARS it never smoked. He did just change the oil, so I checked to see if he over filled it. Nope. Also asked him what oils he used. 30w, not 10w30.

It starts fine and runs very smooth, doesn't bogg down under load, I mean it seems to have good power. The problem is after it runs for a few minutes, it smokes like crazy.

I cleaned the engine up to check for leaks and found none, however I was able to see that the smoke is coming out of the exhaust.

What should I start looking at? Valve seals or piston rings? I will check today to see if I can smell gas in the oil and make sure there is a seal on the dipstick and I will also run it a little while and check the oil level to see if it is actually burning oil, or if maybe he had it tilted or something that could have caused to start smoking like this.

Any suggestions you guys have would be great!

Comments (22)

  • rustyj14
    12 years ago

    Several things can make it smoke! One: It finally left home, and it is going to smoke-come hell or high water! @, if oil got into the air filter, it could make smoke. Over-filling it, by him, may do it, too. He might of oiver-filled it, then seeing his mistake, drained out the excess, and got scared and sold it.
    I'd run it a while, and see if it might settle down in the smoking. And, keep a check on the oil level. Do the double stick method (which some, or a lot, of folks seem to not realise the process!) This is done by pulling the dip-stick, wiping it off, then reinserting the stick, and taking it out again, to get the true reading of how much oil is in the engine. I have heard of some folks who thought a friend was putting oil into his engine, so he'd drain some out, then with not checking it, he'd run it, then check it, and it would look over-full, so back to draining more out, until it went "BANG"!

  • rcbe
    12 years ago

    if the smoke is bluish-white, oil. If dark or black, fuel.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    The issue you describe has nearly all the signs of a failed, or failing head gasket.
    Finding the failed gasket can be done "easy and messy"..........or more (for some folks) difficult/complex but reasonably clean.
    Easy/messy: Run engine until it is a operating temperature (or until it starts smoking out exhaust). Remove valve cover(s) and look down into the pushrod gallery of the head using a good light while the engine is running at idle. A leaking head gasket will cause a puff of pressure (or smoke) to enter the pushrod gallery at the head gasket seam. You need to check both heads.
    The more difficult method is to do a cylinder leakdown test. This requires compressed air, an adapter for the spark plug hole, and a good understanding of how to implement the test.

  • briggsgalaxieman
    12 years ago

    Please post the engine model number (on right valve cover). Also, the make and model of the mower might help...

    "It starts fine and runs very smooth, doesn't bogg down under load, I mean it seems to have good power. The problem is after it runs for a few minutes, it smokes like crazy. "

    If it is just 'oil in the muffler' burning off as things get hot, you can easily test this theory by removing the muffler. Depending on the mower (numbers please!) removing the muffler is quite easy.

    Does it smoke the same when hot at idle or much more when mowing and hot at full throttle?

  • jpeters_spencerian_edu
    12 years ago

    First off, the model number is 45777. I'll have to look at the series number tomorrow. Also, I will check the head gasket and take the muffler off.
    BUT....I decided to adjust the valves today and they had way to much gap. In the process of doing this, I discovered a leak on the left side that I am pretty sure is tje sump gasket. I say" pretty sure" because I can't see the bottom of the head and some oil is dripping there as well, but im thinking is just being blown there by theengine while its running.

    It does appear to be smoking from the exhaust as well though. I mowed with it today and it appears the majority of the smoke is caused by the oil dripping down on the exhaust. HOWEVER, it was bogging down under load while the mowing grass that wasn't very deep. Grrrr. Would bad rings cause that as well?
    oh, one more clue...I pulled the plugs, nice light brown and dry, so that's good.
    thanks for the input. You guys are amazing!

  • walt2002
    12 years ago

    Your problem with smoke MAY be a leaking valve cover gasket letting oil drip down on exhaust. Head gaskets on these do not typically blow to the outside, they blow between the cylinder and the push rod gallery remaining inside where you don't see it.

    Walt Conner

  • briggsgalaxieman
    12 years ago

    "First off, the model number is 45777"

    I don't think that is a valid number. Should be 6 digits long....

    " one more clue...I pulled the plugs, nice light brown and dry, so that's good. "

    Yes, that is really good news. Indicates that the oil is probably not being burned in the combustion chamber (rings are probably good). So, that leaves an external leak/drip as the possible cause of the smoke. These engines are noted for having a bad sump gasket, which can leak plenty of oil onto the outside of the engine...

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Ok....here's an up date, and I have a few questions. I REALLY appreciate you guys helping.
    Ok, I have the motor ready to come out EXCEPT 1 bolt. The one closest to the forward and reverse pedals is partially covered from underneath by the clutch pulley (???).
    I have not removed the pulleys from the motor either, because I don't know if I need to do that. So that is question one. DO I need to remove them.
    Question 2, if one of you guys could throw up a link to the motor manual, the model number is 445777 0168 e1.
    I will search myself, but I am on dial-up right now and this may be faster. :)
    The last (and most scary question to me is)Should the shaft that the pulleys attach to have play in it when there is no tension on it. It has a little side-to side-play and I figured you guys would know if that is normal on it.
    Thanks so much for the help. Ill keep looking for that manual.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    I have the manual needed in PDF form, and I could e-mail it to you but you did not activate the e-mail provision when you joined. Send me an e-mail (using the forum e-mail feature) and I will attach the manual to my reply.

    Here is a link that might be useful: IPL for 445700 series

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Got the pdf, got everything back together. Now I have a compression problem. The mower doesn't want to turn over unless you take it past the compression stroke. Turns over fine without the plugs in. Going to check the valves in the morning, but I'm pretty sure they are right.
    The mower did start and run for a little bit, however it stayed at very low rpms and seemed like it was spitting a little gas from the carb. I statically set the governor (will do it again tomorrow) so I am thinking the valves are out of adjustment.
    One question I have on the valves is, I have read that some recommend to set the flywheel so that one valve is closed and one is open, some recommend that you set the flywheel so that both valves can be adjusted at the same time. Which is correct? I set it so that when one valve was down, the other could be adjusted. And I adjusted them to .004.
    Looking at the manual, Briggs recommends setting them at .005. Would that make that much difference in compression? Also, I read somewhere on here to set the intake and exhaust valves at different settings.
    As always, thanks for the help.

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Here's an update. The mower now will not rev up. No matter where I set the throttle, it runs in a low rpm range. I have double checked all the linkage and everything looks right. The only thing I am not sure about is where the rod connects the governor linkage to the side of the carburetor. I did statically set the governor after reassembly, but the linkage by the idle screw is never even close to the idle screw, even when the throttle is set on slow. It is attached to the governor linkage, so should I loosen the lock nut that connects the governor linkage to the governor arm and rotate the linkage until the linkage rod pushes the throttle plate up against the idle screw?
    It acts like it is starving for gas. I checked to make sure fuel was being delivered to the carb and you can actually see little flecks of fuel coming out the top of the carb when it is running (the shroud is off).
    But I took the plugs out and turned it over a little to check for hydro-lock (thanks Mownie...), there was no gas coming out, and holding a grill lighter next to the spark plug hole and lighting it didn't give me any ignition.
    So at that point I changed the fuel filter, pulled the carb, cleaned the bowl, needle jet and float with carb cleaner as well as spraying the rest of the carb down.
    Still no luck. It starts and runs, but only at one slow speed even though the throttle is wide open.
    Oh, and it won't run at all if I move the throttle to the closed position.
    It's an Intek 25 hp model number 445777-0168-e1
    Does anyone know where I can get a diagram of the throttle and governor linkage? I have the parts list and manual and have checked Briggs website, but none of them show that particular part.
    Oh, one last question....what controls how the fuel actually gets to the cylinder? Is it vacuum from the cylinder, gravity or what?
    Thanks a bunch guys.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Fuel is DRAWN out of the carb and into the intake manifold by venturi vacuum (aka venturi effect).
    It's all about fluid dynamics governed by Bernoulli's Principle.
    Basically, the air being inducted into the engine causes a low pressure area to develop in the throat of the carburetor where the main fuel delivery passage ends.
    Because the fuel in the bowl of the carb is not part of the low pressure area in the throat, there is a higher atmospheric pressure acting against the fuel in the bowl to push the fuel out of the bowl and into the fuel jets and delivery passages.
    When this fuel meets the induction air stream, it begins atomizing and is drawn into the cylinders through the intake valves.
    Opening the throttle plate of the carb simply permits more air to be inhaled by the engine, the more air inhaled by the engine the greater negative pressure is applied to the carb throat and thus more fuel can be drawn out of the fuel bowl........and away we go.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Bernoulli anyone?

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks for the explanation. I got it running at about 60% power. Both cylinders run equally crappy if I force it to run on just one cylinder, but they do run. Plenty of spark. Surprisingly, gas poured straight into the carb while it was running did nothing, so I guess maybe it's flooding instead of starving, but the plugs come out pretty dry and lighting a lighter next to the cylinders doesn't cause it to ignite unless I turn it over for a good bit. Not very likely to be the carb or intake gaskets, as I didn't remove those when I pulled the motor, but I guess they could have gotten knocked around.
    Going to run a compression test tomorrow, bypass the fuel shutoff solenoid just to test it (maybe it's failing intermittently) and pull the flywheel to look for a sheared pin. While I'm at it, I guess I will check the diodes in the wiring that goes to the armatures and pull the carb again and go through it really well. If all that checks out I don't find the problem, I guess I will pull the heads and check the valve seating and pushrods to make sure I didn't bend one when I had the valves set wrong.
    Other than that, I am at a loss, unless the carb needs completely rebuilt, though it worked fine before I pulled the motor.
    Anyone have a quick way to check for bent push rods or carb and intake gaskets?

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Have you done the simple visual test of looking into the throat of the carb to see if the THROTTLE plate is standing wide open when the engine is not running but the throttle control on dash is set to highest speed setting?
    This is the only time you will ever be able to observe the governor actually demanding that the engine RPM increase by holding the throttle plate wide open.
    I mean, you have an engine that should be governed to around 3,300 to 3,600 RPM..........and it's sitting there not running which equals ZERO RPM.......and the throttle control has been moved to the highest speed position you can select.................under those conditions, the throttle plate in the carb should be standing wide open.
    So, have you checked it that way?

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I have Mownie. It's wide open. I did readjust the governor correctly and it has more power, but not quite right yet. I'm not 100% sure one of the springs is connected correctly as you can't see it clearly in the manual. I've been searching online all morning for a picture of the linkage and finally found one that may help, but it still isn't really clear.
    First things first though, I need to find out why the carb is flooding. Hopefully it hasn't flooded the crankcase. I am guessing it is probably the needle valve under the float not seating right. Gonna pull the plugs and turn it over to hopefully make sure the cylinders are clear.
    I can't thank you enough for the help you've given me.

  • briggsgalaxieman
    12 years ago

    Here are pictures of the correct governor spring positions. These pictures were taken on a Briggs 446777-0244-E1 engine. The throttle cable was disconnected at the time the photos were taken. The small spring is just slightly taut in this configuration. The large spring is very loose in this configuration:

    Small spring:

    {{gwi:325300}}

    Large Spring 1st View:

    {{gwi:325301}}

    Large Spring 2nd View:

    {{gwi:325302}}

  • cedarghost
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks a million for those pictures. Let's me sleep a little easier. I guess since this thread was "smoking for exhaust" I should close it since the culprit was a leaky sump gasket. No more smoke or oil leak.
    I started a new thread (several in fact) on this mower as I have tried to work through what is wrong with it. The most current is entitled "25 hp Briggs won't rev to full rpm"
    and it basically describes where I am at. I can't get the rpm very high at all. Moving the governor rod either with the governor assembly connected or disconnected makes no difference. Unless I move it away from full throttle and it pulls the carb linkage closed. That slightly changes the rpm and will kill the motor very soon after.
    Thanks guys.

  • crawler30
    12 years ago

    I have an 18hp intek on a Craftsman mower that is roughly 8? yrs old. It has been used pretty heavily through those years but this season I tried to start it and it seems as though when I winterized it last season I forgot to drain the bowl out. OOPS! Anyway, I drained the bowl, cleaned it, the fuel line, replaced filter, did oil change and filter, cleaned needle and seat and float and all is working fine now. However, once I started it it ran a bit rough for a minute or so then started blowing oil all over the side of my house from the exhaust. I dont mean burning it, I mean blowing out a thick cloud of burning oil mixed with fuel. I checked the oil and it is mixed with gas. My question is, is it likely to be a head gasket? I saw on another forum (that you have to pay for the answers) something about a blow by filter. and also some kind of compression release valve having something to do with these problems. I checked out the schematic and see neither of those on it so now I am stumped other than a head gasket but have never seen that cause this before. Any help would be appreciated.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    Well, you can use the SEARCH feature of this forum to research the issue. You will find that at the bottom of the opening page.
    Yes, you might have a blown head gasket, but that is not why your crankcase oil is full of gasoline. The gas in the oil is because your tractor has a gravity fed fuel tank and no manual fuel cut off valve in the fuel hose (research that too).
    The oil blowing out the exhaust might be caused by the gasoline in the oil boiling off and flowing out through the crankcase breather and right into the cylinder to be blown out partially burned. The stream of gasoline vapors trying to exit the crankcase as the gas boils carries a large volume of lube oil out with it.
    First thing you gotta do is install an inline fuel shut off valve and turn off the fuel at all times except when you are actually using the tractor.
    Second thing you gotta do is drain the contaminated oil out and replace it with fresh oil.
    After doing those things (in that order) you can run the engine to see if it is still blowing oil out the exhaust.
    You may have to run it about 15 minutes or so to burn out/blow out all the oil from the previous episode.
    If the oil blowing clears up/stops, you have dodged a bullet.
    If the oil blowing continues, you may have a blown head gasket.
    Those so called "pay for answers" sites are about as worthless/useless as those "psychic reader" sites.

  • crawler30
    12 years ago

    thanx for the reply. I had researched the issue before on this and a few other forums before I posted but all seemed to have discussed issues which were not quite what mine was. This posting was the closest thing I could find that was still apparently not what my problem was. Anyway, I decided to take off the valve cover to check and see if I was getting blow-by from the combustion chamber to the oil galley and I was so I paid the $8 for a new gasket and changed it out. Next I cleared out the needle and seat as it had stuck open again. I am going to torque the head bolts and set valve lash now and hopefully it will solve the problem. I will add the shut off valve ASAP, until then I will just drain the gas when I finish. Sorry if I double posted a question that has already been answered but to be honest, the forum is not laid out very efficiently. However, I would prefer solid advice over efficient forum design so I will live with it. Thanx again.

  • mownie
    12 years ago

    When I suggested you do some research, I was not chiding or scolding. I just meant that using the search feature would give you many threads to peruse for similarities.
    You were wise to have found the info that led you to look into the oil gallery for signs of blown head gasket.
    Now..........if you need any help with that valve adjustment......:^)

  • crawler30
    12 years ago

    Problem solved, no more oil blowing out my exhaust and no more gas in my oil after about 3 hrs of mowing. Surprisingly it only took about 5-10 seconds to clear out the oil when I first started. The valve adjustment also cured a problem I had before with a loud backfire when shutting off and it used to bog down a bit when in heavy grass which is also cured. At least I think it was the valve adjustment. I also checked for blow-by into the oil galley after a couple hrs of mowing and it did not come back and valves seem to have stayed in adjustment so far (I read somewhere people were having problems with set screws on rockers backing out). I am adding the fuel shutoff valve today and using ethanol stabilizer from now on. Thanx for the advice.

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