We have have mis-judged you! (well........maybe just a little) Looking better now than when I first laid eyes on it. Get up in those cooling fins on the cylinders with some of that oven cleaner!! Good lord man, it looks like you had a leaking head gasket or something! I'm afraid to ask what the propane torch is for, considering your record and all that. Keep going, I'm much more optimistic than I was at 10:30 Saturday. Maybe you will not have to use that Roundup on the lawn after all.

Not much progress tonite. Got the pistons cleaned and the camshaft reinstalled. I then coated everthing with oil. Ordered the gasket set from Jacks Small engines.

Also cleaned the crankcase gasket off the sump. That is some tedious work. Cleaned up the sump as well.

This is the oil seal on the PTO side. There was a silver fines I guess from the wear. This seal should come with the gasket set.

***"This seal should come with the gasket set."***
Depends on which gasket set you order. If you order Briggs engine gasket set part # 808389, yes, the seal is included.

No pics today. I recieved the gasket set, #808389. I was somewhat dissapointed that it did not come with four part #805193 which is a sealing washer that goes on the 2 interior bolts that hold the head to the motor. Luckily the 4 existing sealing washers' orings are in good enough shape to do. The gasket set also came with a nickel sized threaded grommet...not sure what that is for.

I reassembled the oil pump and set the new crankcase gasket, and assembled the sump to the top of the motor, and set a new PTO side oil seal. I continued to work on cleaning the heads ie carbon removal.

One question I had was the fact that the gasket set had a set of metal head gaskets and graphoil head gaskets. My motor is a 1992 so I am supposed to use the metal head gaskets.

What would happen if I used the graphoil head gaskets? It seems like they would do a better job of sealing.

***"What would happen if I used the graphoil head gaskets?"
happy, you have the B&S manual. Can you find any footnotes or references in the procedure that cover using one type gasket or the other? If not, I would not personally have a problem switching to the graphoil composition gasket. Lay one of each gasket on top of the cylinder. Do all holes in gasket and cylinder match up? Lay one gasket of each type, on top of the other type. Do all holes in both gaskets match up? Do this with a graphoil on top of metal, and also with a metal on top of graphoil to be absolutely sure that everything is equal (as to hole pattern). If you find no differences in hole pattern, use whichever you prefer. I too, think that the graphoil type will seal better. I have no statisics to back that up, but I'll wager that Briggs probably does (but might not want to discuss it)!

The only difference in the 2 gaskets is the thickness, though the graphoil will probably compress a little when its tightened down. I have a hard time visualizing how metal makes for a good gasket. The manual doesn't say why they use one or the other, it just says use metal gaskets before date code XXXXX

The gasket set also had a little piece of paper stating this as well.

***"I have a hard time visualizing how metal makes for a good gasket."***
That's because you are considering the wrong criteria for "good gasket"!
Metal gaskets are mainly used as a cost cutting practice. IF, and I mean "IF", an OEM can get away with replacing a composition gasket, with a "die cut and stamped" sheet metal gasket in the application..........they will shave pennies per gasket from the cost of building a particular engine. The "trick" for the OEM to accomplish, is getting the cheaper gasket to perform well enough to last a reasonable length of time. Fortunately for the industry, die cut stamped sheet metal gaskets actually do perform well in most applications, and a simple metal gasket will suffice. Other applications refuse to live with the "one piece metal" gasket. Then there are the "fence straddlers" (like your Vanguard) that might survive with either. There may be some other parameters to consider that only Briggs is "privy to". One aspect of using a "thick" head gasket instead of a thinner gasket is the "reduction of compression" that will occur. In theory, using a thicker head gasket increases the volume of space above the cylinder upper deck, therefore, the compressed charge will have less apparent pressure at TDC compression stroke. In reality......you will not even notice a difference.

More head cleaning tonite. More dissapointment in the engine gasket set. It only came with 2 valve seals. I needed 4 total (2 per head). I guess they just left them out.

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Send them an e-mail or phone them about being shorted two valve stem seals.

This reads better than the shop manual, nice going!

Mownie,

Slight head gasket issue. After installing the graphoil head gaskets it threw off my valve clearance with the rods. To a point where I am worried that the rods may fall out. Now I can adjust the valve clearances. I wonder if the push rods on the latter models are longer to accomodate for the thicker head gasket?

Maybe I need to stick with the metal gaskets as specified though the last ones didn't seem to seal very well.

Thoughts??

happy, if you perform the proper valve adjustments, the pushrods will not be any more, nor less, likely to "jump" out of socket, with either type head gasket. The pushrods are the same for late or old engines in the series. You are planning to do a proper valve adjustment aren't you?

Valve adjustments complete at .005". It took some tinkering to get the proper clearance since your dealing with such a small distance.

Its amazing what a layer of grease and dirt can do to protect paint. I degreased the shrouds and they look brand new. Installed the bottom pulley. Also picked up two M8-1.25 bolts at Home Depot that hold the fuel pump to the frame since I lost the others.

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Its carburetor time!! You guys like my torch? Hehe

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OK, it looks like a terrorist's laboratory there. I give, what's with the torch?

Mownie,

I have done my fair share of 2 stroke outboard repair and a torch is a must when dissambling components that wont budge. I have to admit I did use the torch to break the bond from the crankshaft to the bottom pulley.

I just threw the torch in the pic for a good laugh.

Anyhoo the carburetor was a joke. It was extremely clean. The needle looked OK on the float. I blew all the orifices out. Not much of anything. Again coming from a gummed up 2 stroke carbs I was expecting worse and was happily dissapointed.

***"I have done my fair share of 2 stroke outboard repair"**
Aha!! I knew you were holding out on us! Very clever the way you set us up last Saturday. Not even my diabolic mind could have conjured up that one. Good show so far. You being an old two stroke guy, I guess valves are something new to you (snicker)! I would have loved to ask you to identify which of the valves in the head of those old two stroke Detroit Diesel engines were intake valves (and which were exhaust) that I worked on in my youth :^) You followed the manual on valve adjustment, right??

Yes I followed the manual for the valve adjustments. Hopefully I wont throw a rod when I start the motor :-)

Anyway last night was a long night on my back. I had began to remount the engine. There was a rubber dampener that attached to the electric clutch. Attaching the eletric clutch to this damper was a PAIN! The location was so difficult to get wrenches on it.

I got all the belts reattched and the engine mounted and grounded. Also completed the static governor adjustment. Tonite will be a little bit more enjoyable - mounting the starter and connecting the choke and throttle controls as well as the alternator.

Good so far. We await with bated breath. Thumbs up and fingers crossed.

I am playing catchup on this thread as I was out of town.

I am really enjoying it and I am happy that "Happy" is making such progress.

Walt and Mownie - always a pleasure to see you guys in action!

;) Rolf

Mownie.

Oh the head gaskets......

That extra little thickness of the graphoil head gaskets made quite the task last nite installing the muffler. That extra width threw off the bolts holes. I had to remove the motor again to mount the muffler.

Tonite will be remounting motor....

Almost got this thing licked.

Will yall look at my throttle and governor hook ups to see if they look ok? I am confuse to where the throttle hooks to. Do I hook it to the bottom of that wheel where to hole is? When turning that wheel it doesn't seem to move the throttle on the carb much. I am in the first governor hole on the left.

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I'll have to go look at my Vanguard. I'll try to post some pics if it differs from what you have.

***" I am in the first governor hole on the left."***
Your pictures do not show what you are referring to (no "straight on shot" of the lower end of throttle bellcrank link) but I have taken a shot of how the link attaches on my 350777 0034 01 Vanguard. I also hijacked one of your photos to clarify what the "big spring" is.
From looking at your pics, it looks as though you have the throttle bellcrank link in the wrong hole. I'm judging by the apparent route and direction of the link in your top photo. It looks like (from that photo) the link is going to hit the governor arm about mid span (is that "the first hole on the left" you refer to??).
Your Vanguard may have a different governor arm (we could look it up), but the arm on mine has a hole on the far right end of the gov arm (where the text indicates in my photo). It's a bit dark in the photo, but if you look closely, you can see how the "hook" in the end of the throttle link loops through the dedicated hole. The hole is in the side of a tab that is bent into the governor arm. There's even a little "bushing" in the hole to "soften" the wear a bit.

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Mownie,

We have the same parts manual.

Mine is set up like yours except for the throttle link / wire which comes from the left side on my mower. I just dont know whether I attach that throttle link to the top hole in the wheel or the bottom hole in the wheel.

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I think I figured it out. There is a clamp that holds the throttle wire from the controls and it is tilted down towards the bottom hole of the wheel so thats where I need to hook the throttle cable too.

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OK got her running. She runs great with no surging all the way up to full throttle.....until I turn on the deck and she almost dies.

I have no power under load. I did the static governor adjustment. It seems like the governor is not adjusting to the extra load.

Thoughts???

Good, it runs! Go back through the static governor procedure again and double check. The governor senses RPM only, it is only aware of changes in RPM. It cannot sense whether the key switch is on or off. It does not read minds or scan thoughts of the operator. It's job is to try and maintain the RPM range chosen without allowing the RPM to climb higher than the max RPM limit. Why am I restating all this? Because, you have to understand that when the engine is turned off and the machine is sitting there all by itself in the shed waiting for you to crank it......the governor is inert and will allow the throttle plate to move to the "wide open" position, if you select that with the manual throttle control lever. When you crank the engine and it starts running, the governor becomes active and immediately takes control of the engine RPM by allowing the throttle plate to open only as wide as neccessary to maintain that RPM. If the engine is not operating under a load, it might require the throttle plate to be open only slightly to affect the chosen RPM. But, when a load is applied to the engine, and RPM drops as a result, the governor allows the throttle plate to open further in an attempt to restore the RPM to the former value. The static setting of the governor should allow the throttle plate to be in the wide open position with the engine not running, if you move the manual control lever to "wide open throttle". If the governor allows the throttle plate to reach this position with the engine off......it proves that the governor and linkages are at least capable of permitting the throttle plate to open fully. Moving the throttle plate is the only action a governor can perform, it has no DIRECT CONTROL of fuel volume. Fuel volume is determined by a few other factors besides just the position of the throttle plate, but the position of the throttle plate is the ONLY factor that is controlled by the governor. Do the following checks. You need to be able to "watch" the governor arm and all the linkage in operation while you "throttle up" from idle to what you call "full throttle". If it requires a helper to run the controls while you watch, get a helper. First, before starting the engine, note that the throttle plate is permitted to move to the "wide open" position when the manual throttle control lever is moved to the "high speed" position. If the throttle plate can't move to "wide open" before the engine is even started up, there is a problem in the linkage or governor adjustment. If it CAN move to "wide open", Have the helper start the engine while you watch the governor arm. You should see the governor arm react to CLOSE the throttle plate to prevent RPM from exceeding the MAX RPM setting. Next, have the helper engage the deck while you watch what the governor arm and linkage parts do when the load is applied. What you should be able to see in this process is the governor arm should move to allow the throttle plate to open futher to restore the RPM to the former value. If fuel flow volume is adequate, the governor might allow the throttle plate to go wide open for a split second before pulling it closed enough to limit the RPM to what has been chosen. If fuel flow is insufficient, you will likely see that the governor is keeping the throttle plate "wide open" in an attempt to get the RPM back up. If you do see the governor allowing the throttle plate to be held wide open when a load is applied to the engine, and the RPM does not recover, your problem is not in the governor It is going to be either a "lack of fuel" or "lack of air".

First many thanks to you Mownie. I would have never gotten this far without your knowledge.

So are you thinking the lack of power under load is governor and/or carburetor related?

Is there a dymanic governor adjustment?

I am trying to think what may be different now than before I broke the lawm mower down.

I didn't mess with the carb except cleaning. I did add the thicker graphoil head gaskets as well as adjusting valve clearances to .005". I did unhook the governor from the springs as well as removing the throttle cable. I believe I have reattached the throttle cables and governor links correctly.

Hopefully these issues lie within the carb / governor.

What would moving the "big spring" on the governor one hole to the right do?

Anyway I will give observe the carb/ governor this afternoon.

Mownie,

Would peformance improve if BOTH spark plugs were connected???

DUHHHHHH!

No wonder I had no power....I was running on one cylinder!!!

Off to cutting grass! Thanks to Mownie!

Try to get a video later!!

Whoo hooo!

Don't mow all that grass at once!

I must say this was thee most entertaining thread I've ever read on this forum.

Kudo's to Happy! U Da Man.

Surprised though that you couldn't 'hear' that it was only running on one cylinder.

Other than that you took the 'bull by the horns' and got the job done.

WOW! So cool! Looks like you did it! happy123! I tip my hat to Ya!

ms

"You've made me, so.........,so very.......happy" (to quote an old song).
Good work there hap. Yes, I have found it is usually beneficial to use all the spark plug cables furnished by the OEM. I just woulda probably not ever guessed that could be a possibility in this case. In your "defense", I'll offer that simply "hearing" a Vanguard running on one cylinder does not really sound much different when both exhausts feed into a common exhaust manifold/muffler AND......"when both cylinders have good compression". Now, if you have a Vanguard which has lost compression on one cylinder, the sound (and feel) will be much different.

Hey Guys, is there any secret to getting the drive pulley off? I used a pulley puller and even took it to a machine shop all to no avail. Only bent the pulley.

Now that you have bent the pulley, drill 2 holes through the pulley, far enough from the centerline of the crankshaft to "miss" the thick central tube of the pulley assembly. Holes should be 3/8" diameter.
Get the holes far enough away from the tube to allow room for a nut or bolt head to locate at the hole without the tube interferring.
Using a "T-bar puller, set up the puller by using long 3/8" bolts to secure the T-bar to the pulley assembly.
You should be able to pursuade the pulley to leave the crankshaft this way.
You might need to "warm" the tubular "hub" with a propane or MAPP torch.
Oh yeah, make certain you have removed all set screws that may be in the pulley hub before you begin pulling.

I have done all of the above, drilled the holes, used the propane torch, even incorporated the help of a local machine shop and they could not even get it off. I have the new pulley that I ordered and I don't see where any set screw would go into it. Any Idea where I would find one? I have model 446777 Briggs Vtwin Intek ELS725

Well, some have set screws and some don't, just wanted to make sure that was not a factor.
What happened when you used the T-bar with the drilled holes? Did the pulley just continue to bend and tear out the holes or did it seem like you just ran out of "puller power"?
I don't know how big the T-bar puller (center bolt diameter) is that you are using but it needs to be at least a 3/4" pusher bolt.
Next tactic is more complex to set up but it will relocate the point of contact to the central tube of the pulley assembly and will technically be "Pushing" against the tube instead of pulling on the opposite end.
Here is where the complexity begins.
You will need to secure the use of a "bearing splitter" adapter to go with a T-bar puller.
The bearing splitter is a 2 piece adapter that is held together by sturdy bolts through the 2 halves.
The bearing splitter will be positioned around the crankshaft between the tubular hub of the pulley and the sump. Tighten the spitter halves together only tight enough to barely touch the crankshaft.
There are threaded holes on the face of each half of the splitter for bolts to connect the bearing splitter to the T-bar. You will probably have to cut off the v-groove portion of the pulley, or notch it, to provide clearance for the long connecting bolts UNLESS......you are lucky enough to borrow a really large splitter where the face holes are wider apart than the OD of the v-groove diameter.
If you are able to beg or borrow the necessary items to set up this puller configuration, you can say you have reached "The Big Time".
If you are unable to beg or borrow the stuff, see if you can hire out the removal to a well equipped commercial shop.
HINT:.......The magnitude of T-bar puller, connecting bolts, and bearing splitter you need to do this job are more likely to be found in shops that repair large trucks, big farm tractors, or heavy construction equipment....those guys don't go "bear hunting with a .22 rifle".
If none of the above can be located, you have but a couple of choices left.
In one choice, you can rind through the tubular section of the pulley assembly to defeat the death grip that the rust has on the crankshaft.
Locate the pulley key and mark that part of the pulley (or paint a mark on the crank).
You want to confine your grinding to this line up and down the pulley for 2 reasons.
(1) The keyway in the pulley tube is the "thinnest cross section" of tube......less metal to grind through.
(2) The key is a "sacrificial part" in this operation. You grind away at the pulley tube until you are through the tube and into the key and you will do no damage to the crankshaft (provided you don't get "careless" with the grinder in some other fashion).
After grinding through the wall of the tube, you should be able to tap the remants of the pulley off with a small hammer.
The second choice would be to actually use an arc welder and run a few beads of weld down the entire length of the tube at 90 degree or 120 degree spacings around the circumference of the tube.
It is critical that the welding only be done by a competent weldor or else there is a chance of ruining the crankshaft.
Of course the main thing in this welder technique is to not weld on the crankshaft. To prevent this a piece of scrap metal needs to be gently clamped to the crankshaft at the upper edge of the tube. If the welder accidently "hits" the scrap, no harm to crank, just break the scrap piece off afterward.
Welding current needs to be kept less than 90 Amps to keep from burning all the way through to the crank and to minimize heating of the crank.
Allow cooling of the pulley hub between welding the separate beads. Cooling time should be no less than 10 minutes per bead. This exploits the stretching of the rust that will occur during welding.
After the last bead of weld has been laid down, do not allow time for cooling.
Instead, immediately set up some type of puller (depending on your resources) and withdraw the pulley from the crankshaft.

All right. Going with the cutting through the tube method. I have a air powered die grinder at my disposal. I have read elsewhere that this is probably the best tool because of the high speed. I have seen one post about doing it with a sawsall. I a not very confident that I could do it with a sawsall. I think the die grinder with a cutting wheel will do the trick, so long as the wheel is not too big and I can get it in the space between the upper section of tube and not get into the bottom of the crank case sump.

Suggestions?

***"die grinder with a cutting wheel"***
As you stated your concern about clearing the sump, let me clear up what I meant about using a grinder to cut through the tube.
You can use a "die grinder" with cutoff wheel, with the wheel oriented vertically only so far, then proximity to the sump becomes an issue.
Use the die grinder with cutoff wheel to cut a slit into the tube begining your cut at the lower end of tube (farthest from sump) and cut moving toward the sump until you are too close to the sump to use the die grinder any further.
When you reach that point, switch over to using a regular grinder with the disc oriented as I show in YES (see image).
You will need to sever the pulley groove portion off (or at least one half of it) if you have not already done so inorder to do the magic with the grinders.

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Sounds good. Any hints on removing the pulley groove?

http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/progolftool/

Here is a link that might be useful: Pics

Well.............use the die grinder and cutoff wheel to "section the pulley". Then get hold of a section with a big pair of vise grips and work the durn thing back & forth until it breaks off.
Then continue to cut and grind as described above.

Can I have some whipped cream with my pulley pie? ;-)

Minced pulley pie with Cool Whip......Yum!

Hmmmm??Did he remove the center bolt that holds the pulley on the crankshaft? Nowhere have i seen any mention of removing it---makes the stacked pulley come off a lot easier------

Got it!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/progolftool/?action=view&current=PulleyOff.jpg

Any hints on proper gasket installation and prep to keep the leak from reoccurring? Any other gaskets that I should replace or other maintenance I should do to the engine while it is off?

Happy: Great Thread , one of the Best Sequential Rebuilds I have seen Posted on any Thread c/w Photo's !

Mownie: Kudo's for the excellent advice and assistance within this Job , as Usual !

Wade: If you have the xtra $$ use Graphonic Gaskets they are excellent within Pressure Temperature Relationship and Chemical Resistant . They have been utilized within Petro Chemical / Industrial Applications for Yrs .

So where is Walt????

Thanks Walt! I am beginning my reassembly now. By the way, I did all of the cutting on the pulley with a Dremel tool. Actually a black and decker wizard with the wand attachment and a 1.5" as well as a 1" cut off wheel. It might have taken a little longer, but I was able to get closer to the sump without worry of cutting into it. I had to bend open the pulley in places to get the tool deep enough to cut through the thicker middle section of the pulley but that was eased by the cutting to the holes the guys at the machine shop drilled in order to use a wheel puller on it.

Did the exhaust valve guides need a valve stem seal? I was told they do not.