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cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Posted by txmat (My Page) on
Sat, Oct 26, 13 at 11:36

I have Cub Cadet HDS 2165 Model 136-268-100, SN 330227 tractor with starting and PTO problems and need help in how to diagnose and solve them. Recently the tractor stopped starting with the key switch. I did not have time to properly diagnose the problem and it would start by jumping the positive battery post to the starter, so I continued to use it. The tractor ran fine once it was started. Today I jump started it, but when I went to turn the power take off on there was no response. So my two issues are: it will not start with the key and the power takeoff is not working. What should I do to diagnose the problems and how do I fix them? I know just enough mechanics to be dangerous, but I do follow directions well. Thanks in advance for your help.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Well, both problems can be caused by a faulty PTO switch.

You might at least check the connections there.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

The connections look good. I also read on the internet that the relay attached to the PTO switch could be bad. Do you know how to check the switch and the relay to see if they are good? I have a multimeter, but don't know how to use it to check a switch.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Do you have a link to YOUR schematic?

"Looking" at connections is pretty much useless.

You can "read" a lot of things on the internet.
Is it EXACTLY YOUR schematic? Is the poster "creditable"?
It may or may not be, but without being able to see your schematic, it's very easy to head down the wrong path.

I have at least 157 schematics for Craftsman tractors prior to 2003! Schematics are NOT generic!

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Sat, Oct 26, 13 at 13:58


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

No I do not have the schematics for my tractor. I have pulled the sockets for both the PTO and the relay attached to it and cleaned up the prongs. Still does not start unless I go directly from battery to starter and the PTO switch does not do anything. Bill do you know where I can get schematics for my Cub Cadet?


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Update: I have found a schematic of the electric system. Now what do I do with it to trace where the problem is?


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Maybe post a link to it?


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

OK Bill, here is the link. The one for my tractor is the second one as my SN is 330227. If this link does not work I can scan it and post it as a pdf.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to Wiring Diagram


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

OK- I have the image.

Crank circuit-
When the key switch is turned to the start position, 12V is delivered to the "S" terminal from the "B" terminal.

This ORANGE wire goes to terminal #2 of the PTO switch.
With the PTO switch OFF, terminal 2 is connected to terminal 1.

The ORANGE wire then goes through the brake/clutch switch, which must have the pedal pushed in to close the switch.
The voltage then goes to the small terminal of the starter solenoid, which should engage the starter motor.
Check the connectors to all these switches.

You basically need to check for 12V at the various switches to determine where the fault lies.
A 12V test lamp would be ideal for this.

The schematic doesn't have the "truth table" for the PTO switch as it does for the key switch. (the chart that shows what connection are made (or not) in the different key positions.)
I'll need to study that a bit more when I have time.
HOWEVER-
The PTO ALWAYS has 12V to it (when the key is ON) and is controlled by switching the GROUND.
I also noticed a fuse near the battery to this ground lead.
I'd CHECK that fuse.

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Sun, Oct 27, 13 at 10:31


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Thanks for the info and suggestions. Here is what I have been able to do. First, because I do not have a helper, I pulled the wires to the seat switch and taped them together.
Both the PTO & key switches have connectors that are plug in. On the key switch i did not check because if I pull the connector than the switch will be out of the circuit and I do not see how to put my test leads on the B & S connections while still connected. Any tips on how to do this? Can I just pull the connector off and then test it someway? On the PTO switch, I pulled the connector and then used my multimeter to test for voltage between 1 & 2 with the key switch on and got 0. I have not found the brake switch yet. When I check the small lug on the solenoid with the orange wire and turn the key to start I get .04 or .004 volts ( i don't remember how many zeros) My ground may not have been good as I was using the painted part of the chassis. There are two fuses and both look fine. Is there a way I can verify that with the multimeter? Does any of this give any insight to the problem and can you give me any advice on how to better test these switches?

This post was edited by txmat on Sun, Oct 27, 13 at 13:09


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Well, taping the seat switch wires together guarantees no spark! It grounds the kill wire to the ignition.
That;s the M terminal of the key switch. Notice in the "truth table" it's connected to G(round) in the OFF position?

You WON'T get any voltage to terminal 2 of the PTO switch in the ON position because it's part of the CRANK circuit.
It only gets voltage in the START position!

You can test switches with the OHMS function of your meter.
Make sure the switch is disconnected from any power.
Notice what happens to the meter when you touch the leads together? (continuity)
The switches can be tested this way.
Ditto the fuses. Just put the device to be tested in series with the test leads.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

OK. So taping the seat switch wires together was a bad idea. How can I bypass that switch so that I don't have to have someone sitting on it while I get under the dash to check the switches? I assumed (we know what that means) that by taping them together I was simulating the switch being closed by someone sitting on the seat. I apologize for needing so much hand holding and do appreciate your willingness to help.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

The seat switch is normally CLOSED (notice the NC in the schematic?) and sitting in the seat OPENS it, ungrounding the kill wire so you can get spark. That circuit works in conjunction with the PTO switch etc. Those details are unimportant at this time. IF you were getting no spark, that's when we would worry about it.

You DON'T need to worry about the seat switch for what we are doing. It has NOTHING to do with the CRANK circuit!


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Ok I will un tape the leads and re-install them into the switch. I got continuity between B & S on the key switch in the start position. The fuses also check out. Can I assume that the seat switch and the brake switch are good because when I have the key on and someone is sitting in the seat and has the brake on I can jump between the positive battery and the starter lug where the red wire attaches and it starts. Does this mean those switches are working and therefore there is no need to test them?


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

No.
You are totally bypassing those switches when you jump 12V to the starter.
Stay calm and LOOK at the schematic.
Trace it out.
As you can see in the "truth table"-
START has B(attery) and S(olenoid) connected.and...
(refer to my post from just after midnight)


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Going back to your post. With the connector attached to the key start switch I can not check to see if there is 12 volts on S when the key is turned to start. When I disconnect the key switch I get continuity between B & S. When disconnected and I test each of the connections the only one I get any voltage on is the Black, but it is only 2.63 volts. From you post, I expected to get 12 volts. So why only 2.63 volts? The battery gives me 12.65 volts. The starter solenoid does not have the little red wire as indicated in the schematic. There is a little red wire that is attached directly to the positive post of the battery. I cannot tell where it goes because it disappears into a wiring harness. It may be the red that goes to the hour meter. If so I do not know where the black from the key switch picks up it's power. Apparently not from the starter solenoid.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

"There is a little red wire that is attached directly to the positive post of the battery."

This is probably the wire that should be coming off the solenoid/battery cable terminal??

LOOK for the fuse near the battery +.
The schematic shows it to be RED on the solenoid side and BLACK (corrected from RED) on the side going to the B terminal of the key switch.

IF this is the same wire, you should have full battery voltage to the plug B terminal.
I'd suggest checking the fuse connection.

What do you have the ground lead of the volt meter connected to? When measuring voltage, it has to be connected to a good ground.

This post was edited by bill_kapaun on Sun, Oct 27, 13 at 18:35


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

I had the ground lead on part of the frame. I will check it again and move the ground lead around to see if I can get a better reading. Can you tell from the schematic what the rating and style the fuses are? I have only found two 20 amp fuses and both have two blades and push into a holder.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

I can't see anything regarding the fuse types etc.
The type you describe are what's used in "modern" mowers, cars, trucks........
20 Amp doesn't seem "abnormal".


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Thanks Bill. It is getting dark now so I will quit for the day. Tomorrow I will have some time and will try to locate and check the brake switch. I think it is under the tractor and I will have to jack it up to get to it. Am I correct that both the seat and brake switches are simple on/off type switches. If I activate them there should be continuity if normally open or no continuity if normally closed like the seat switch? Then when not activated it would be the reverse? What about the voltage. If I check the orange wire lug at the starter solenoid while the key is in start and get 12 volts doesn't that mean that there is 12 volts at the PTO and Brake switches? And then if I check continuity at the brake and seat switches I can rule out any problem with those switches?

I have read that the relay attached to the PTO often fails. If It has failed how would effect testing the switches?

Thanks again for all your help.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

" Am I correct that both the seat and brake switches are simple on/off type switches. If I activate them there should be continuity if normally open or no continuity if normally closed like the seat switch?"
Correct

"If I check the orange wire lug at the starter solenoid while the key is in start and get 12 volts doesn't that mean that there is 12 volts at the PTO and Brake switches?"
Correct

"And then if I check continuity at the brake and seat switches I can rule out any problem with those switches? "
IF you have 12V at the solenoid as in test 2 above, the switches are good. (a simple test for the solenoid & starter motor is to jump 12V to the SMALL solenoid terminal. It should crank)

Without a "truth table" for the PTO switch & relay, I can't really say how it interacts.
Relays are pretty cheap.
Can you remove the relay and tell me if it's a 5 pin w/ only 4 being used?
IF So-, the pins will be numbered 30, 85, 86, 87 & 87A.
Pins 85 & 86 will be used


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

***" If I check the orange wire lug at the starter solenoid while the key is in start and get 12 volts doesn't that mean that there is 12 volts at the PTO and Brake switches?"***
Yes, that means the current has made it successfully past both of those switches.
But........if you can read battery voltage at the orange wire terminal on the starter solenoid while the wire is connected to the solenoid, then the solenoid is probably defective OPEN.
You can check the operation of the solenoid by jumpering to the terminal the orange wire connects to from the battery positive cable on the starter solenoid. If the solenoid does not engage in that test, the solenoid is defective.

The brake switch is a combo type switch having 2 separate switch circuits in one switch body. The circuit with a green and a yellow wire in it is the engine magneto kill circuit and is of the Normally Closed type (NC).
The switch circuit having 2 orange wires is the switch that controls the cranking current to the starter solenoid and is of the Normally Open type (NO).
So, when the brake pedal is depressed......the green and yellow side of the switch should show no continuity but the side with 2 orange wires should show continuity. Let the pedal up and the roles should reverse with green/yellow showing continuity but 2 orange showing open.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Well I have attempted to check out the starter solenoid. I am not sure I have done the tests properly, but here is what I have done and the results:

With someone sitting on the seat and the brake pushed and the orange wire connected to the solenoid - when the key is turned to start I got 4+ volts at the orange wire terminal.

With someone sitting on the seat and the bake pushed and the orange wire connected - when key is on but not turned to start and a jump from positive battery to orange wire terminal first time the starter turned the engine over. When I tried to repeat this only a click at the solenoid.

With no no one sitting on the seat and the brake not engaged and the orange wire disconnected and key turned to on but not start - shirt between one red post on the solenoid and orange wire terminal resulted in rapid clicking and nothing when orange wire terminal shorted with other red wire.

With no no one sitting on the seat and the brake not engaged and the orange wire connected and key turned to on but not start - I get 0.10 volts at orange wire terminal.

Did I do these tests properly and does this information tell me anything about the condition of the solenoid or the circuitry between the key and solenoid?

The relay attached to the PTO switch is 5 blades only 4 being used - 2 green wires to one blade, 1 brown to a blade, 1 brown to a 3rd blade, and a white to a blade. It is marked Hella 4RD 931 524-02. The pins are not numbered, but on the side it has a schematic with the pins labelled 1-5.

Thanks again guys for your patience and help.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

The seat switch isn't in the crank circuit, so you don't have to worry about being in the seat for the SOLENOID tests.

Basically, jumping 12V to the SMALL solenoid terminal should result in the solenoid engaging and the starter motor cranking.
You are bypassing ALL switches (in the crank circuit) when you do this.

Clicking indicates a couple different possibilities-

1. Battery low- As soon as the starter motor engages, it pulls down the voltage enough that the solenoid "drops out". Since the starter isn't trying to turn any more, voltage jumps back up and the solenoid re-engages. Repeat with a "machine gun effect" of rapid clicking.
I'd really suggest getting the battery charged and LOAD tested. Autozone and similar places will do a free load test in hopes of selling you a battery.

2. BAD connection in the crank circuit. This is basically your "heavy gauge" battery cables & connections + the ground circuit, which includes engine mounting bolts being tight etc.

3. Possibly a bad solenoid?
With your volt meter hooked across the 2 large solenoid studs (it'll read 12V), jump 12V to the small solenoid terminal.
IF the solenoid is switching internally like it should, the Volt meter should drop to near ZERO. This is because the voltage is traveling through the "switch". IF the solenoid CLICKS, but does not crank, observe the Volt Meter. IF it shows 12V, it means the internal switch is bad and the voltage is trying to travel through the meter.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

I did the test on the solenoid and the voltage did drop to 2 when I shorted the red to orange. The voltage between the 2 reds was 13.5. I put my charger on the battery and it is showing 90% charge. I am charging it now. I did not think it was a battery problem because I can start it by jumping from the battery positive to the starter. So there is enough power to start it that way, but maybe not enough when it has to go through the solenoid?

I went ahead an ordered a replacement relay as it was only $4.50.

The connections to the battery look clean, but I will clean them anyway. As to taking the battery out for a load test, I am going to hold off on that because it is a b____ to get out. If charging doesn't work then I guess I will have to pull it and get it load tested.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

IF this has a Briggs OHV engine, part of the cranking problem can be valve lash.
IF the valve lash is incorrect, the compression release function of the cam shaft doesn't work.

I kind of passed over that, since it HAD been cranking.
Possibly, with cooler temperatures, the battery is getting "more marginal" and a "marginal" valve lash problem may be the straw that broke......


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

OP - Just gotta ask - has this machine been washed down with a garden hose or power washer in the last year or two? If so, good chance of corrosion setting in at electrical connections - like not only battery posts, but chassis ground connections, relays, connectors, etc.
L&G powered eqpt is not designed/mfg'd to withstand such moisture. Worse than than that, the corrosion itself can sometimes be invisible to the eye. Always best to take connection apart, clean ALL mating surfaces with crocus cloth or sandpaper to bright metal, then re-connect.
Doing this in your start circuit may help the marginal start problem described....


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Thanks for the suggestion rcbe 6. No, it has not been power washed. It does stay outside, usually under a cover, but occasionally it does get rained on. I have taken apart the connections and cleaned the male side with sandpaper. I do not know how to clean the female part of the connectors?

I am going to pull the battery this morning and have it load tested.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

OP - Understand it is a PITA to pull/test that battery. But, a number of us have painfully found out that the small batteries in these machines just aren't that reliable even new off the shelf.. making them prime suspects in any electrical troubleshooting routine. Next, may well be the starter solenoid you already plan to replace. Beyond that - as Bill already has pointed out - Briggs OHV engines are very picky about having their valves set precisely to enable their starters to crank the engine thru a compression stroke.
But, yeah.. an occasional soaking from a rainstorm or thundershower would be enuff to start that invisible corrosion - particularly where wire leads are tied to the chassis frame for grounding purposes. Make sure you get them cleaned up - and be aware that even the starter itself and the engine crankcase bolted back to the frame are part of the start circuit..
On the bright side though, you have the fact that you were able to start the engine by bypassing the start solenoid and that indicates that the rest of the start circuit is in decent shape.
Let us know what you find after the battery check and new solenoid...


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

I want to thank Bill, Mownie, & RCBE 6 for holding my hand and working me through these problems. I learned a heck of a lot about how to troubleshoot an electrical problem on this tractor. OK, the good news is the problems are solved. A load test of the battery showed it was probably bad, so I bought a new battery and that solved the starting problem. I had ordered a relay for the PTO because it was only $4.50 and I did not know how to test the original. Replacing it solved the PTO problem. Everything is now working great. Thanks again for your patience & help.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

And thank you for the jubilant update :^)


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Glad it's working.

IF you Google "Bosch Relay", you can find diagrams and understand how it works/tests.


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RE: cub cadet hds 2165 starting & pto problems ?

Thanks Bill. I will do that.


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