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clifh21730

No Spark Mystery in an old engine.

clifh21730
12 years ago

The engine is on a very old (manufactured in the early 1960s) Sears garden tractor. The engine is 17 hp, cast iron horizontal shaft model: 325431-0139-01-711010

The problem is as follows:

About 8 years ago, the tractor was developing one problem after another, so when it lost its ignition spark, I parked it and bought a new one.

A few days ago, I pulled it from the barn and set out to fix the spark problem then to restore the tractor to near-new status. I replaced the coil, points, plug and condenser and it started right up with a good hot spark. Much to my surprise. I started and stopped it several times over a two day period. Then, all of a sudden, it refused to start. No spark. I reset the coil/flywheel gap (.013), points (.020) and plug (.030). No help. I checked the terminal between the coil and points (mounted on the housing) for shorts. None. I even bypassed it to be sure. I disconnected the shutdown wire just in case there was a problem in the ignition switch. No help.

I did note that there was a very - emphasize very - little spark when the plug wire is held next to the head. It is so weak that it can only be seen in darkened conditions. Thinking that it is possible that the condenser might -just might - be defective, I replaced it with a new one. No help. Finally, I gave up on frustration and hauled to a small engine repair shop owned by a friend who has been around a long time and is very familiar with point/condenser ignition systems.

He started out feeling very confidant that, since the only components were points, condenser, coil and plug, the problem would be easy to solve. Not so. We then replaced the coil-to-points wire, thinking that, since the insulation was old and stiff, it just might be the problem. No help. He then dug out his old test instruments and tested the coil and condenser. Tested very good. We replaced the points again (even tho they were new). Still no help.

Someone suggested that I should sand the rust from the Magnet. Did that. Sanded the entire flywheel. No help.

Things seem to point to the coil, even tho it is brand new. However, the question that would come up is: What could cause a new coil to go bad? I hesitate to order a new coil just yet because of the unnecessary expense if that isn't the problem.

Can anyone shed light on this mystery or offer a new approach?

Comments (13)

  • tomplum
    12 years ago

    Though it sounds like you've given it the twice over. You could try it without the condensor and any switch hooked up plus take the cover to the point box off. On this ignition, a sheared flywheel key can cause a no spark condition, weak flywheel magnet too. A grounded wire between the coil and breakers could be the cause. BTW, the magnet should draw a screwdriver from an inch away. If all is good, test that when the breakers close that they make ground. Now you are back to the coil.

  • clifh21730
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Everything pointed to the coil even tho it was new and even tho it tested good. So, I bought a new one. No help. At this point, I have tried two new coils, two new condensers and one new set of points. Maybe I'll try replacing the points again. Everything is stripped to the basics. The shutdown wire to the ignition switch is disconnected. The terminal lug (joining the coil primary with the points) is bypassed. Even the insulated wires are spaced away from the ground. There has to be a logical reason to this problem. Someone think of one.

  • rcbe
    12 years ago

    might be a sheared flywheel key.. chk, clean thoroughly, re-asm with good key and torque to spec (dunno what the spec is - sorry)

  • walt2002
    12 years ago

    Does sound like flywheel key, torque 145 ft. lbs.

    Walt Conner

  • clifh21730
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Pulled the flywheel. Key in good shape. BTW, made sure the the plunger between the cam and the points was free and moving appropriately. As far as the magnet in the flywheel is concerned, it seems plenty strong. I don't know how to quantify it, however.

  • walt2002
    12 years ago

    Well you are missing some little thing that we can't tell from here. You may want to look for a thread on replacing the point type ignition with CDI. I generally do not recommend that.

    Do you have a Service Manual on it? IF not, I MAY have one covering it.

    Walt Conner

  • clifh21730
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Regarding switching to electronic ignition: When it died 8 years ago, that was the first thing that I tried. Didn't work. My small engine guy tells me that the reason it didn't work is because CDI won't work with a cast iron flywheel.
    Yes, I have a complete manual. In fact, 10+ years ago, I stripped the engine completely and bored the head, put oversized rings, ground the crank and put oversized rod bearings. Used the manual throughout. Worked great after the work - for a couple of years.

  • walt2002
    12 years ago

    "My small engine guy tells me that the reason it didn't work is because CDI won't work with a cast iron flywheel. "

    Well IF he said that, he is vastly mistaken. All B&S engines over 8 hp use cast iron flywheels and have as long as I can remember.

    NOW, it is true that SOME 32 series cast iron block singles have a problem which is why I suggested you look for a thread on this. Some people convert easily, SOME required reversing the polarity of the flywheel which B&S does or did free EXCEPT the shipping is prohibitive now days. I suspect the difference may be whether they use OEM or Aftermarket kit with the aftermarket being more likely to work but that is just a guess.

    Walt Conner

  • ericwi
    12 years ago

    I'm not clear from the text above if you have changed out the high tension lead from ignition coil to spark plug. If not, there is a possibility of an internal short in the old wire, that would allow the spark pulse a path to ground.

  • clifh21730
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    The high tension lead is an integral part of the coil.

    Still puzzled over the problem. Took every thing apart/off again. Reinstalled according to the book/ Left off the unnecessary things like the shut down wire. Bypassed the terminal lug just in case of a short - tho the ohm meter says it was ok. Checked everything. All tested and/or looked good. Still little to no spark. Just that weak nothing of a spark.

    The system consists of a coil (set to 10 thousands clearance), Points (set to 20 thousands), Condenser and one piece of wire between the coil and the points/condenser. The ground wire of the coil is attached and makes a good connection. The magnet will lift a screwdriver almost an inch.

  • Fourcycle
    12 years ago

    Disconnect the condenser and coil from the breaker points. With an ohm meter confirm that when the points are open that the meter reads infinity or at least very high resistance (meg ohms)between the engine case and where the coil wire attaches. Then, with the points closed, it should read 0 ohms for a dead short. I've had new points not conduct because they were covered with an invisible oxide film. It took a diamond file to get the oxide off, wet/dry carbide sandpaper wouldn't cut it...

    Check your condenser with the ohm meter too, from the case to the point where the wire to the points attaches. It may initially read low resistance but should then climb to a high value as it charges.

    Check the resistance from the coil primary wire to the engine case. It should be very low, perhaps even reading 0 on your meter. There should be a much higher resistance from the secondary (spark plug lead) to the engine case.

    Coils can be tested for spark with a scooter size 6v battery "dinked" across the primary with the condenser across the primary to absorb the back emf when the battery connection is broken. Careful here since if you get it wrong something along the lines of primitive arc welding will result!

  • clifh21730
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Tried it with condenser disconnected. No help.

    Use Ohm meter to check conductivity of points when closed. Tested good.

    Checked for shorts two ways: One by disconnecting all non essential wires (shut-down wire to ignition switch, terminal lug, etc) and check with ohm meter. Terminal not shorted to frame.

    Checked continuity between coil body and the frame. Zero ohms.

    Had the condenser checked at the same time that the small engine guy checked the coil. Both coil and condenser tested good.

    Frankly, I gave up and am converting to Magnatron electronic ignition. Just shipped the flywheel to Briggs to have magnet polarity changed. Hated to give up, but. . . .

    Thanks anyway...

  • Lewis Lincoln
    3 years ago

    I have struggled with this on a single cylinder cast block on my simplicity 7016. I FOUND THE ANSWER. the connection for the poinst to coil . The bolt they meet at is Faulty and grounds out.i simply joined the wires with a butt connector and fired right up.

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