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solenoid
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Posted by paullee ny (My Page) on Tue, Nov 3, 09 at 14:58
craftsman ltv 10 mod num 917.252635.. Ran fine...sat for a week, and now will not start or even turn over...bat is fine based on other posts
I ran a jump cable from the double wired side of the solenoid to the pos terminal of the batt with ignig key turned on... nothing happened
I then ran the wire from the single wire side of the solenoid to the pos term and the starter turned...
can anyone tell me what this might mean? and what I can do?
Thanks for any and all help
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Follow-Up Postings:
RE: solenoid
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Could be a dead ignition switch
could be the solenoid Both are inexpensive
Lowes sells them, or go on the Sears pts line with your model number Also, you could have a safety switch acting up
such as clutch/brake, deck switch, seat switch, or gear selector switch that is acting up |
RE: solenoid
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| Thanks for the fast answer, are there any tricks to localizing the problem? |
RE: solenoid
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Tricks?.....Maybe. When you jumped from Battery + to the "single wired" solenoid post (this is solenoid output post) and the starter turned, this means only that the starter portion of the equation is good. Let's tackle the solenoid and some other stuff now.
Do you have a 12 volt test light or volt meter? Using either the test light or the meter, we need to first identify the small terminals on the solenoid. Identifying them is important for the other tests later. Connect the lead of the test light or volt meter to the battery positive post and probe each of the small posts on the solenoid with the other lead. One of the small posts will light the light or show battery voltage on the meter. Mark this post as "Ground", it will NOT be used to test the solenoid. Next, we need to determine if this solenoid is "good or bad" so we can tell if we need to test safety interlock circuits or the key switch. To test the solenoid itself, you need a short "jumper wire". This needs to be a piece of insulated wire, about 8 inches long with 1/2 inch of the insulation stripped off each end. The wire should be either 12 or 14 gauge in size. When you do the next test, you might see some small sparks if you do the test properly, just don't touch anything with either end of the wire except the posts I indicate to you. Touch one wire end to the small solenoid post that is NOT the ground post, touch the other wire end to the big double wired post on the solenoid. If the solenoid is "good", as soon as you touch the wire to the big post, the solenoid will engage and the starter will begin turning. If this happens, we will need to test some components in the safety interlock systems and the key switch. If the solenoid does not respond to the "hot wire test", replace the solenoid. As has already been stated by another member, these solenoids are very generic and readily available. Post back with your results please. |
Separate solenoid???
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| I guess I forgot to say that my instructions were meant to cover a tractor that features a solenoid component that is separate from the starter. That is what I presume you have. I tried to look up the Owner's Manual on my favorite site but this is one of the models that are not included on that list, so I don't know for sure, but I guessed "separat solenoid". |
RE: solenoid
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You are correct sir..it is separate. First thing in the am I'm going to do the tests that you've so clearly explained.
Seems you knew to explain it in Paul terms...Thank You.
The solenoid has 2 posts and 1 flat post to slide a clip over. One of the posts has a single larger gage red wire running from it to the starter, the other post has 2 smaller gage red wires attached to it, the flat post has a single thin yellow wire attached.
In the optional link url I tried to paste an address for a pic of the replacement solenoid I found on sears parts direct (thanks to whomever posted the site). It is similar but has an extra flat post...
Again Thank You for the help, I will post back with the results.
Oh, and by 'tricks' I meant things smart people know that I'm not qualified to know....a very long list |
Here is a link that might be useful: sears parts page
RE: solenoid
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| OK paulee, since you say your present solenoid only has the one small post, that small post is the one you will use to do the jumper wire test, no need to do the prelim ID step. Because there is only the single small wire, the present solenoid is grounded internally through the metal mounting base of the solenoid. Which brings us to another point. The replacement solenoid (your link) comes with a short grounding wire (that's it shown in the image to provide a means of getting the solenoid in touch with a grounding source (like the metal frame or other grounded part of the tractor). To connect that ground lead, you can just slip one of the solenoid mounting bolts through the eyelet terminal of the wire and it will ground that way. The spade terminal will connect to one of the flat blade posts on the solenoid. Of course, this is jumping ahead a bit, we still haven't learned if your solenoid is defunct or not, but we'll get there. |
RE: solenoid
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| Did the test, it sparked and the starter turned over. So it seems the solenoid is ok. I very much appreciate your help, the machine is as old as dirt but worth the effort. Plus this is pretty interesting stuff. Again Thanks |
RE: solenoid
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OK, solenoid good. Now we need to test some other stuff.
How does your tractor engage the mower deck? Electric clutch PTO on end of crankshaft and a switch on the dash? or do you have to move a lever to engage the belt? Either type should or could have a lockout switch that prevents the starter solenoid from working if the deck drive is left in the engaged mode. If you do not find the deck switch or lever in the engaged position or mode, let's check the ignition switch next. You will need the test light or volt meter for that. Gain access to the back side of the key switch and find the white wire. Probe the connector where the white wire enters the plastic plug body, probe deeply enough that you know you are touching the conductor surfaces inside the plug. This goes better sometimes if you have a helper to operate the key switch while you probe the wire. Anyhow, with your test light or meter probe inserted into the connector plug of the white wire, turn the key switch to the start position. If you get a light or a volt reading, there is nothing wrong with the key switch and we'll need to check further. Sometimes when folks are doing this check of the keyswitch, the doggone solenoid (and starter) might begin working. If this happens to you, check the posts (blades) on the key switch for being loose in the back panel of the switch, or corroded/rusted. You will have to pull the plastic plug connector loose from the key switch to check for loose rivets that hold the blade lug to the switch, if you find any looseness, or found that moving the plug causes the solenoid/starter to work, replace the switch. Be really careful removing the plug from the switch so you don't break the plug. If you feel the need to "pry on" the plug with a screwdriver, be sure to disconnect the battery NEGATIVE cable before you do that. I'll let you check that stuff and report back before going further. |
RE: solenoid
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The belt is engaged via a lever, which is disengaged.
Tomorrow morning I'll run through the test as described. On another note...apparently every tree in the tri-state region has conspired to drop all of their leaves in my yard...so if anyone needs any leaves...
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RE: solenoid
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Mownie, sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, my employer had the audacity to make me work!!
Anyway I followed the steps you described and found that the ignition was ok, I then jumped the pto kill switch...nothing, next I jumped the trans kill switch, bingo!
I am the only one to ever use the machine... so I cut the clips and connected the 2 wires and the 28 year old mower is back to her self. I could not have done this without your help. I am delighted to get another season out of it. When she's finally done I'm going to have her bronzed and mounted.
Mownie I can't thank you enough for your help.
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RE: solenoid
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***" 28 year old mower....I'm going to have her bronzed and mounted."***
Don't do that! Just leave it out by the curb where rusty jones can find it! I guarantee he'll get 28 more years of use out of it (though it might be a part here to this mower and another part over there to that mower or maybe put the deck on some other mower, well, you get the idea) :^)
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RE: solenoid
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| YUK, YUK, YUK!! From Rusty Jones. |
RE: solenoid
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| rustyj, I'm just trying to help you get some more raw material and parts to fuel your enterprise sir. And I hope you had a nice Veteran's Day yesterday. I forgot to wish you and the other veterans a good day and offer my thanks to all of you at the time. My apologies Sirs. SALUTE! |
RE: solenoid
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Thanks, Mownie! I spent most of the day at a good friends' funeral, so i didn't get to attend the parade, nor the gathering at the local grade school. but, there's always next year!
I have a problem with a C-man/ B&S twin cylinder, though. It starts and runs and drives, for 20 minutes, then suddenly shuts off! Leave it sit for 5 minutes, will start again, run for 20 minutes--same scenario.
The only thing i can figure is the ignition coil, but i don't have an extra one to try it. And, i don't want to buy one, if it isn't the problem. Its in the gray tractor era. Am i correct in my thinking? (You know, they had black, red, gray, and other colors, denoting the periods of manufacture. I don't have the numbers, just need an idea. Machine is well kept-inside storage, etc, clean.
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RE: solenoid
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***"B&S twin cylinder....gray tractor era"***
Well, I'm gonna bet that one is an opposed twin. On those engines, a single coil delivers a spark to BOTH cylinders at the same time, causing BOTH plugs to spark simultaneously. This works OK only because the two cylinders are on different strokes of the 4-stroke cycle when the sparks occur. At the moment of "spark", one cylinder is near TDC of the compression stroke and the opposite cylinder is near TDC of the exhaust stroke. The spark occurring in the exhaust stroke is called a "wasted spark", because there is nothing present to burn and no benefit gained from it, but it allows the engine to be built with a simple ignition system to serve both cylinders.
Having said all that to outline what you might be up against, do this. I know you are bound to have a few "spare spark plugs" in your inventory (good ones, that is). Have one spare plug in your pocket and run this thing until it shuts off. Immediately unplug one of the spark plug wires and put the wire on your spare plug. Leave both of the other plugs in the engine and the other spark plug wire still connected to the other plug still in the engine. Put the "test plug" on the engine or a ground surface. Now, crank the engine and watch the test plug for spark. If you DO NOT see spark on the test plug, remove the wire from the other plug in the engine and connect it to the test plug. Plug the first wire back to the plug it serves. Now crank to test for spark on the test plug. If you still get no spark, unplug the plug wire from the opposite cylinder again, except this time,lay it somewhere so it can't spark. Crank the engine and watch the test plug. If you get spark now (with both plug wires isolated from the cylinders), this means the coil is weak, and not producing enough voltage to arc while under the influence of compression. If you still get no spark, swap the test plug over to the other plug wire and try again. If you are unable to get a spark from either plug wire at any time during these tests, the coil is probably bad, but BEFORE you go and order a new coil (based on the tests), remove the sheet metal and look for damage to the kill wire or plug wires caused by "you know what". |
RE: solenoid
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Mownie: I went and looked at the tractor again, and it is the OHV Vanguard Twin.
I am going to bring it to my home, and really check it. I don't want to go buy a new ignition coil, until i'm sure it is the problem. Although, what else could it be? Maybe something floating or sunk in the gas tank, and every so often, it slithers over the tank outlet and shuts off the gas flow!? I did read here about somebody having the same problem, but it turned out his gas cap had a clogged breather.
I'm fixing an old Monkey-ward lawn tractor, for my own use, and when i get it ready, it'll go out to storage and i'll go get his, and bring it home to check further. |
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