Since you list 7b as your climate zone, I assume your toward west Texas. The two cultivars you list are certainly more drought and heat resistant, but to my knowledge are not particularly tolerant of alkaline soils. But also understand these trees are grafted. So while the top may be Legacy, the roots will be some random Sugar Maple seedling in most cases. But also note that while these forms are more drought heat tolerant, they are still not adapted to West Texas conditions. But you aren't dead in the water either. There is an isolated population of Sugar Maples just west of OKC that are far better adapted. A few selections of these have made. For those you will need to look for the cultivars "John Pair", "Autumn Splendor", and "Flashfire". These are refereed to as "Caddo" Sugar Maples. It is also possible to get seed grown Caddo Sugar Maples on their own roots, so that you need not be as concerned about the root stock (what they are grafted onto). John Pair and Flashfire can be had from Forest Farm. Pricey, but if you can't get them anywhere else..... Seed grown Caddo Sugar Maples can be gotten from Sooner Plant Farm.

Below is a link to my photobucket site. It has pictures of our Commemoration, as well as Autumn Splendor at our local botanical garden. There are lots of other pics as well, so you may want to search for the names, as I have most of them labeled.

Arktrees

Here is a link that might be useful: Arktrees pictures

Thanks for your response.

I live in northern Texas in the western cross timbers area. My zone depends on the map, some list it as 7b, some 8a. My soil pH is around 6.8 and I get around 30-35 inches of rain per year.

I currently have two small 'John Pair' caddo maples from Forest Farm (one half eaten by deer) and am also considering getting one of the seed grown ones from Sooner Plant Farm. Sugar maples are my favorite trees and I was trying to find some different varieties that might have a chance here. I have done a lot of research on the caddo maples, but not so much on any of the other varieties, so thanks for the info. and I'll definitely give your pictures a look.

We have Commemoration and Fall Fiesta a.k.a. Bailsta. Both have handle the recent horrible summers well, and really the Bailsta was probable a bit better than the Commemoration. I say this because the Commemoration had a year where is seeded VERY heavy, barely grew at all, and had tiny leaves. Not sure if this was due to especially heavy pollination, stress from the previous summer (which was the worst since 1980 and that years equal). I tend to attribute it to the heat stress as I did find an old borer whole where the bark flaked a bit that was about that age. That would suggest stress to me. At the same time none of this happened with the Bailsta and it grew more as well. Note though, I kept them both watered during the drought, and you would no doubt need to supplemental water for as long as you are there. As for Legacy, there were a number of established trees (i.e. 25'+) that I believe to be Legacy, that made it through both summers without apparent extra care Also be aware that your average 30-35" annually would be a very dry year for me. My annual average is 48-50".

Lastly, one other selection might be better for you than the three in the above paragraph. Hiawatha (see link) is from a wild native tree on the very edge of the plains to your north. As such it should be genetically better adapted.to your conditions. It would have certainly survived similar though colder conditions. I know of one person who has this tree (and they are here if they decide to tell you about it), and I believe their results have been positive so far, but I am not going to speak fro them. Quit the interesting story behind this selection as well, if you care to do some digging. It almost never was a selection. You might look into Autumn Fest as well. Some confusion as to whether it is a Big-Tooth Hybrid or a Big-Tooth Maple but for home and yard purposes, Big-Tooth are really much tougher Sugar Maples (much confusion as to whether Big-Toothed is a distinct species from Sugar Maple, or a sub-species, hence it really doesn't matter at the homestead).

FWIW, IMHO if you are wanting the Orange fall color, then go with Autumn Splendor. They are very impressive, and very fast growing (3'+/yr shoots) at the local botanical garden. You may have to go to a Tree Farm that grows them, or special order them somewhere, but they are worth it from what I have seen.

Arktrees

Here is a link that might be useful: Hiawatha

This post was edited by arktrees on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 11:01

I really appreciate the info. you are giving me; it's very interesting and helpful.

I'll definitely look up the Hiawatha and Autumn Fest. Autumn Splendor is a tree that I've been wanting to try for a while, but haven't found many places that carry it that are close. I've also thought about the bigtooth/bigtooth-sugar hybrid, Highland Park 'Hipazam'.

Hey, elektron!

Two atoms were walking across the street when one exclaimed "I've lost an electron!"

The other atom asked, "Are you sure?"

To which the first atom responded, "Yes! I'm absolutely positive!

Pardon the corniness, it is one of my favorite jokes =)

I have Autumn Splendor (planted 2 growing seasons), John Pair (p 2 gs), Hiawatha (p 2 gs), Commemoration (p 2 gs), Legacy (p 1 gs). I also just planted a Flashfire last fall but haven't seen it in leaf yet.

They are all very nice trees. If I were you, I'd go with straight caddo or one of the caddo cultivars if you could make sure to find them on caddo rootstocks.

The Hiawatha has unique leaves compared to all the previously listed cultivars and are larger and more pointy at the tips of the leaf lobes. It has been very hardy for me and hasn't missed a beat since I planted it. Like Ark said, it should also be a good choice for you. If you are not going the caddo route, though I think I'd go with Legacy. One year in the yard and it is already at the top of the list for me!

John

Oh I forgot! You might want to look into Acer skutchii - Mexican sugar maple. I have one I received this spring that grew over 3' this year. I bought it from AlmostEden.com and I believe their seed source is Stephen F Austin University. Dr. Creech is the guy in charge there and he has even posted here a time or two.

John, great joke!

Thanks for your help. I will most likely be getting a straight caddo and possibly an Autumn Splendor if I can find one. Acer skutchii sounds like an interesting tree as well. I might give one of those a try, too.

I currently have two small John Pairs in five gallon containers that I had ordered from Forest Farm last spring. One has been eaten in half by deer, which is why I decided to pot them up so I could keep a better eye on them until they get a little bigger. They didn't put on any new growth this year and both exhibited some leaf scorch.

Once I completely make my mind up, I'll let y'all know exactly what I'll be getting and give updates on their progress.

Thanks again!

Posted by j0nd03 7b AR

Here's another:

A neutron walks into a bar, orders a drink & asks the bartender "How much?"

Bartender says "For you, no charge".

Posted by beng

LOL^

My two John Pairs are grafted. I'm not sure what root stock they have, but it's more than likely standard sugar maple. How do you think this would affect the cultivar in regards to their drought and alkalinity tolerance? Should I expect to have to treat them more like the species, or do you not think it would make much of a difference?

The roots will respond to the soil conditions (Wrt alkalinity which 6.8 is not!) as the species. However I would expect the leaves to lose less moisture than the species through transpiration making it more drought tolerant to some degree. As always, a wide 3-4' mulch ring ~2" thick and deep soaking watering when the soil under the mulch goes dry will be most beneficial to all of your trees.

Sorry that I hear about the deer damage. They are a real PitA over here as well!

Jond03 mentioned Mexican Sugar maple - I planted one in the hill country at in laws' house and it grew 3 feet in its first year. The problem is deer like yours. I have had to put up chicken wire around it to keep deer out. For more information, see the link. I've personally visited this maple at SFA. Pretty neat tree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mexican Sugar Maple

The resident sugar maple experts have covered most points.

Legacy and Comemmoration are both common here - in this area, Commemoration seems to have a deeper orange fall color with some red overtones, whereas Legacy is a more yellow-orange to straight orange. Neither one shows any heat or drought stress, but again, MD summers are neither as hot nor as dry as your location & our winters a bit colder and much wetter.

I am interested in Hiawatha. It just has neat looking leaves (they appear LARGE too) and I want one. Hard to find, though - I think Forestfarm might stock them, but haven't seen them anywhere else, except this place called Grimm's Gardens - they sell on Amazon but their prices are almost comically high for this cultivar ($200+ for 7-gallon Roottrapper bag).

In West TX, I'd agree to go with one of the Caddos, the Mexican Sugar Maple, or the Bigtooth Maple (which is actually native in TX). You might also do OK with an Acer barbatum (AKA Acer floridanum) - the Southern Sugar Maple (AKA Florida Maple), but I think it might be a bit more drought-sensitive, being native to the wetter Southeast. Maybe one of the other guys can chime in.

As a side note, I've seen older texts referring to the Caddo maple population (which was found in Caddo County, Oklahoma) as being varieties of Acer grandidentatum (the Bigtooth maple) or Acer barbatum (Florida Maple), but most modern sources consider it a variety of A. saccharum.

The sugar maple group (which includes all the trees we've discussed) is really a genetic continuum as opposed to seperate species IMHO.

Then there's the Black Maple, Acer nigrum, which we didn't even get into (probably not a good choice for TX but thought I'd mention it).

Ark - I hadn't heard that Autumn Fest is possibly thought to be a Bigtooth - it seems too large and vigorous to me - unless it is a hybrid and that's the hybrid vigor showing.

Hair,
I am going by memory, so it would behoove you to do some digging on Autumn Fest possibly being a hybrid with Big Tooth Maple. Can't tell you where I was reading it. I read lots of things and what I deem important is mentally filed away. Everything else (like where I read it) gets tossed.

Elektron,
Share those baby pictures. We LOVE to see them round these parts. The more of this kind of info people that experiment a little like yourself share, the better it is for everyone.

Arktrees

I found several links with some great info on heat and drought resistant sugar maples and one even talks about a new cultivar being developed. I thought these were quite interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tatter and scorch resistant sugar maples

Info on two Caddo cultivars:

Here is a link that might be useful: 'John Pair' and 'Autumn Splendor'

New Caddo cultivar being developed:

Here is a link that might be useful: Powder Keg

Interesting observations in the article on 'Powder Keg' in that many Caddo seedlings are pretty lackluster.

However, it seems that we're building up a nice little repertoire of cultivars of Caddo maples...Powder Keg would make 4 IIRC once it becomes available.

The cultivar 'Sandersville' (sold as 'Harvest Moon') might also work - I believe this has been determined to either be a cultivar of Acer floridanum or possibly a saccharum x floridanum cross. Might not be quite as drought tolerant as the Caddos but it might do OK for you.

Read the Powder Keg article. Got some gaping wholes in it. He talks about concern that eastern Sugar Maples are not suitable for many reasons, then turns around and uses eastern Sugar Maples as rootstock with no explanation as to why this is now the answer. It may just be very poor writing on his part, and the rootstock originates from seed that was actually from the very south western fringe of sugar maples native range, and exposed to frequent droughts, but certainly is not clear from the article.

As for less vigor, that is likely an adaptation to dried harsher climate. Just like many oaks have little top growth for the first few years, while the root system develops and spreads. Many pine species do the same. It's a tactic to survive dry harsh climate conditions. This was actually touched on when he sent scion wood away to be grafted, and the grafter expressed concern over adaptation of the rootstock.

Arktrees

Possibly poor writing - he did say the sugar maples he initially trialed in the 70s had good roots but poor tops - hinting that the "good roots" of eastern A. saccharums would work well with the Caddo scions for reasons discussed upthread here, but he doesn't make it clear.

FWIW they could be seedlings of standard sugar maple from seed obtained somewhere like MO or KS, etc. We don't really know.

Very interesting thread. I have 42 acres here in southwest Iowa and plan on planting several sugar maples. I moved here about 8 years ago from PA and really miss the color display put on by these beauties. It's quite a breathtaking sight to see the bright yellows, oranges, and reds lighting up the forests in the fall. I have several questions though. First off I see no sugar maples growing native here at all. I want more of a red balance in my stand of trees. I have some Supersweets coming this spring but i want to mix it up with some sugar maple cultivars that I know will be red and orange. yellow seems to be the most common throw back of color. What do you guys recommend for more red coloring? I also am going to see if i can get some Mexican sugar maples to survive her in cold zone 5 Iowa. I emailed Dr. Creech and asked him if he thought they would survive here and he said he knows they are surviving in zone 6 but didn't know if growing them in Iowa would be pushing it. I guess we will see. The fall coloring looked nice and red. Also, i am turning up no results on online mail order nurseries that have sugar maple cultivars like fall Fiesta or Commemoration. Can you guys point me in the right direction? Thanks

treebird,
Sourcing cultivars was a subject that came up a while back. Namely, its very difficult for most named cultivars of the larger species, without going to a nursery and spending lots of cash on larger trees. Don't know how many you are looking to plant, but your best bet if you are wanting a fairly large number would be to go to a bare root liner producer and try to make some sort of arrangement. Might go to a "tree farm" and make an arrangement with them to get what you want.

Arktrees

What is a bareroot liner? I understand bareroot obviously but what do you mean by liner? Do you know of a nursery that offers these?

A liner is a small grafted tree or cutting (or seedling if not a cultivar) that is usually no more than a few feet tall, that a nursery buys and plants to grow larger to then be sold.

As hair said. I will add one more additional bit. They are typical sold in groups. Sometimes bundles of 5, or 10, or 25. Typically there is a minimum order as well. Hence the comment about wanting larger numbers. If you are planting lots of trees, it is the way to go. Of course you have watering and planting issues then.

If you are talking 10-15 trees, then you need to talk to a tree farm and wave cold hard cash in front of them and hope they bite. And of course be prepared to plant immediately with proper equipment and techniques. Don't neglect "proper" planting. Much more to planting than digging a whole and sticking a tree in. Most trees die, or are seriously damaged due to improper planting. If you already know about this, then excuse me for pointing it out, but we see this continuously on this ad other forums.

Arktrees

Thanks but does anyone know where I can find rooted liners in bundles of 5 or so? I understand watering and care I have a few orchards here on the acreage I planted and do my own grafting and such. We have pecans, hicans, hickory, walnut, hazelnut, pawpaw, persimmons, apples , pears, nectarines,plums, quince, peaches and about anything else you can grow here I just want a nice sugar maple back drop on our timbers edge and I want to fill in some open pasture areas. I want a nice assortment of red hardwood color but finding clones seems to be difficult.

Well I just ordered 2 John Pair sugar maples from Forrest Farm for a spring shipment. I was checking it out online and it seems to have the nicest red color of any other sugar maple. They had them at a more reasonable price for a 2-3ft size so that is the route I decided to take. Now if only I could find the same deal on some other sugar maple cultivars, I'm still on the hunt. Does anyone have any experience with acer skutchi growing in zone 5? I'm really looking to experiment here in Iowa.

I'm attempting an experiment with my two John Pair maples that I had talked about before on here.

I decided to try to get their scions to root since they are likely grafted onto species sugar maple. I coated just above their grafts with a rooting hormone and planted them deeper than before. Hopefully this works out and they don't die from being planted too deeply.

I wish i could give you some tips on rooting but that's an area I never had any luck in. Grafting is generally the simplest method for me. I know that in order to root you should use new green growth. I'm not sure if it can happen with dormant scions. You might even try to sprout some of your caddo's seed and graft onto them. How is the color on your John Pair caddos? Did you get them from Forrest Farm? They didn't specify on what they were grafted to. I wish you the best of luck with rooting. keep us posted on the progress.

I'd be 99.99999999% sure that Forest Farm, as well as any other nursery, unless they specify otherwise, is going to graft John Pair onto standard Acer saccharum. FF gets some of their stock from J.F. Schmidt if I recall correctly, that which they don't propagate themselves.

Schmidt would also almost certainly use standard saccharum, if only because seed for standard sugar maple is EXTREMELY easy to come by (I can walk my neighborhood in early fall and fill a 5-gallon bucket with sugar maple seed in an hour), where as Caddo seeds are fairly hard to acquire en masse.

I got my John Pairs from Forest Farm. I didn't get much color on them this year before freezes killed the leaves. What I did get, though, was a nice orange-red. I'll see if I have any pics of the color.

I'm hoping to get these scions to root so I can have the hardy Caddo tree through and through. If I fail, I'll order some more. I'll keep this updated on the progress.

Great. So whats the point of selling a caddo which is supposed to be drought tolerant if you just stick it on an average sugar maple seedling? That basically just makes it a pretty colored average sugar maple. I don't think I'll have to worry too much here in Southwest Iowa unless the rain stays away like it has for the past 2 years.Thanks for the info hm4e. I would really like to know how that rooting works out for ya elektron. Really wish FF had some of their other sugars in the smaller form like the John Pairs. I don't want to pay the oversized box shipping and smaller trees actually establish quicker than larger ones.

treebird, here is one of my John Pairs that defoliated and regrew its leaves late summer.

Here is the other one in fall color whose leaves had a little scorch and stayed small due to less water. A freeze occurred a couple days later and I didn't get to see their peak color this last year.

I just found in my Raintree nursery catalog that they have Legacy sugar maples for around $20.00 each. So far it's the best online price I can find. I'm going to order 3. They are said to be fast growers with thicker leaves but I really don't know much about the fall color, I heard it can vary greatly.

Treebird, that sounds like an excellent deal on small Legacy maples. I planted my Legacy in the fall of 2012 (so only one growing season) and it rewarded me last fall with the best fall color of the 100+ trees I have planted at my house! I really like mine.

Not the best picture, but it was very nice in person. Last fall was very muted at my house but this one of a small few that provided nice color.

Looks like a very nice specimen. Hopefully it's as vigorous as they say it is. Thanks for the photo : )

Legacy around here colors a nice yellow-orange, rarely any real reds, similar to what John posted. It does seem pretty fast growing, the sugar maples around here that I believe to be 'Legacy' mostly put on about 2' per yr, more or less, if "open" grown (parking lot island trees grow slower).

'Commemoration' looks very similar in habit to me, but has a deeper orange or sometimes reddish fall color.

Both these varieties seem to have slightly smaller, slightly leatherier leaves than Green Mountain or seedling sugar maples, but not as much so as Caddo. They both originated in IL I believe, from the more western part of the native range where summers are hotter and more drought-prone than, say, New England.

I am worried that since I planted the trees deeply, that they may rot and die. What do you think would be the best thing to do in my situation? I would like to get these trees on Caddo roots, but don't want to do it if it's going to kill them.

I have some perlite and cactus mix. I'm thinking of three options. I could re-pot the trees into a normal potting mixture with the graft above the soil and hope that they would still be hardy enough for me. Alternatively, I could put them into some perlite with the graft covered and hope for rooting to take place. Or I could get risky and cut the scions of the Caddos off and dip them in rooting hormone and stick them into the perlite and try to root that way.

I know the first option is definitely the safest, but I just want to make sure that these trees will grow well in my area.

I'm open to all feedback and hopefully y'all can help me decide on what the best option would be in my scenario.

Thanks.

I've actually had real good success planting graft unions below the soil level. I don't know how well it would work with sugar maple but many other types of trees I planted did well but when I plant them they usually are dormant trees at the time. You still have the rootstock that grows but over time the actual graft begins to root out as well. It's your call, I wouldn't want you to kill your trees off by any means.

Good info, treebird.

I can add that sugar maple does indeed root from trunk bark if it is potted too deep. This is happened to one of the plants that I bought before. So I would think option #1 should work. Treebird makes me think option #2 might also work.

Treebird, how deep do you bury your plants above the graft line?

Here is a link that might be useful: Here

How deep I bury them depends on the size of the tree usually, but on average I would say 6 inches above the union.

I got them potted into a mixture of sand, compost, vermiculite, and perlite. I'm not sure how deep to bury them. The pots they are in can't be filled much more.

Here is a diagram of how deeply I have the graft buried. The scions are covered by about an inch to maybe two inches. Should it be deeper? I can get some real pictures tomorrow if needed. Also, should I use any rooting hormone by doing it this way or is it just used for exposed cuts in the wood?

This post was edited by Elektron on Sun, Feb 16, 14 at 5:14

Eledtron,
I suggest you google search "air rooting" or "air layering" of Japanese Maples. This is basically what you are trying to do. I personally would grow the trees out a bit, and then try air layering on a side branch, rather than risk the trees. JMHO.

Arktrees

Bumping this thread for some spring pics!! For all the beauty of Sugar Maple in fall, their have some of the best deep green spring/summer foliage, as well.

In fact, driving through PA on the turnpike, there were areas at high elevation where the Sugar Maples on the hillsides were the most vibrant green you could imagine, while the oaks were still not fully leafed out yet.

Who wants to volunteer? John, I know you have some...

Any particular cultivar you want pics of? All of them???

FWIW, my slow growing John Pair is finally looking happy. 6"+ shoots which is by far the most it has grown in a season. The previous two years, it broke bud, made one set of leaves per bud and it was done. IIRC, each shoot has ~5 pairs of leaves this time. Unfortunately, the ice storm we had last winter made it bend over and the top was touching the ground. It still has a pretty good lean and some bark cracking opposite the lean (where the most stress would have been) but I expect it to be OK in the long run.

All of them, of course!

My John Pairs aren't doing so well this year. The one that had been clipped by deer last fall hasn't leafed or had any new buds at all. The other has leafed out, but with very small leaves and no new growth. I moved them both to nearly full shade a few weeks ago to ease their stress and the one with leaves grew a few more, although they are very tiny.