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Shrubs under the dripline
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Posted by whaas 5a Milwaukee (My Page) on Tue, Jan 26, 10 at 15:55
| So lets say you plant a young Tilia tomentosa in full sun...farily small, lets say 8' x 5'. You want to plant groupings of 3' x 3' shrubs under the mature dripline.
Do you plant shrubs that will thrive and offer all their blooming glory in full sun and in 10 years you may need to remove them and replace them with a shade lover?
Or do you go with a shrub that will tolerate both sun and shade but may not necessarily thrive in either situation?
I prefer option 1...I'm thinking the roots will grow in harmony and you'll easily be able to remove the "main" mass of shrub roots and can easily plant a (lets say) small hydrangea in place of the shrub roses you originally planted.
Thoughts?
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Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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- Posted by whaas 5a Milwaukee (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 26, 10 at 17:01
| If you chose B, why and what shrubs have you used in this situation?...hmm this probably should have gone in the shrubs forum, although its as dead as a door nail in there. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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Oh it's an essay question.
Well, why would you go through the expense of planting shrubs only to tear them out several years later? It makes more sense to start out with a shrub that is proven and adaptable to how it's being used. Because holly and juniper is my answer to just about everything, you'd be better off going to look at some nicely landscaped commercial properties or mc mansions where you can see what shrubs are planted in front of and in between trees and have matured to tell about it.
Down here I plant hollies, junipers, cleyera, lorapetalum, indian hawthorn, and sweetspire. I don't think any of that is used up in WI but there must be something that is. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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- Posted by whaas 5a Milwaukee (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 26, 10 at 21:44
| You bet! My thought is that I can enjoy a floriacious shrub (ie rose) until it becomes a shaded area...then I can plant another floriacious shrub like a hydrangea down the road. Yes you give up $'s...my main concern would be digging in the tree zone. What I typically see is spirea, juniper, sumac...and wow that its about it. I may take a better look at the botanic gardens this spring. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| How about cherry laurel? prunus laurocerus or however you spell it. Forgot about that one. There are dwarf varieties. I forgot about roses too but those are better in full sun. You're probably going to find a lot of burning bush and ornamental grasses. I'd skip the burning bush but the ornamental grasses are a nice way to fill the space until everything else fills in. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| rose and hydrenga are not really shrubs .... but that is symantics ... listen .... we can go down the esoteric path forever ... but the answer is very easy ... PLANT WHAT MAKES YOUR TOES CURL ... AND WORRY ABOUT PROBLEMS DOWN THE LINE ... seriously .. a $10 - $15 rose.. for 10 years of toe curling ... and be done with it.. a dollar or two per year investment ... cripes.. you waste more money on a annual bases on foo foo coffee .. you already have too many green plants.. get some flowers ... BTW .. my hydrenga is in one hour of sun ... its a shade plant as far as i am concerned .... look into ligularia also, link below try the hosta forum.. perennial, or a shade forum to find flowering perennials that like shade ... ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: ligularia
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| rose and hydrenga[sic] are not really shrubs Really? And why would you come to that conclusion? What would they be if not shrubs? This issue comes up frequently in landscape design. Obviously if an entire garden is planted all at once - like many installed designed landscapes are - none of the plants are fully mature and expected to provide (or receive) the amount of shade they would if everything was more mature. Selecting a "tolerant" shrub - one that would tolerate both a shaded or a sunny location - is generally considered the way to go. This lessens the need to move plants down the road or disturb the tree roots unnecessarily. A good many shrubs will be happy in a sun to part shade situation and even those that prefer more shade can be given temporary protection until a more permanent shade source can fill in. FWIW, just because a shrub is located under a dripline (or estimated mature dripline) does not mean that shrub will be in full shade. At different times of day and at different times of the year, the exposure may be quite open. Calculate where the predominate shade patterns will be and plant accordingly. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| hey gal.. where ya been ... i was just stirring the pot .... by my definition.. shrubs are: able to withstand being run over by my truck once established, NEVER need water or fert [which roses and perennials do] should be trimmed on the 1/3 system are basically bulletproof monsters ... i figured the exact definition was debatable .... depending on location [shrubs in some zones are die to the ground perennial-like plants up here in the great white north] .. etc .... but you didnt address my basic assertion to plant what makes you extremely happy.. and worry about the trees shading them out.. decades down the line ... ken |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| First of all I would plant as many corms of Cyclamen hederifolium, C coum and Eranthis hyemnalis as I could afford. These would give you a show of spring flowers before the tree leafed out for many years until your shrubs had filled out. Even then they would still pop up wherever there was space. Then I would choose low growing drought and shade resistant shrubs like Sarcocca (small perfumed flowers in winter, little black berries), Butchers' broom, spiky but will grow in the dark in dry dust, Hypericum calycinum (a thug but you can just zoom round its perimeter with the mower.)Daphne laureola (evergreen, red berries). These are all more or less maintenance free. No fertilising. No watering. Although a mulch of compst would not go amiss occasionally. I think these would be ok in your zone but you'd need to check. The link shows you the Cyclamen and has other info. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Plants for tree shade
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| With the exception of the cyclamen none of the plants listed will survive zone 5. And if it were hardy, the sarcococca would not be happy in the amount of sun it would receive until the shade canopy fills in. Lots of shrubs will grow in sun/partial shade and one should avoid planting shrubs too close to the tree anyway - root competition will typically put smaller plants at a disadvantage but placing out along the edge of the dripline will give them a fighting chance plus increase the amount of light received. Ken, it's fine to make up your own definition of a shrub but you should make it clear it is YOUR definition :-) A shrub is a plant that develops an above-ground permanent woody framework and are differentiated from trees by having multiple stems (typically) and a determined, shorter height. Both roses and hydrangea fit that definition. They may act like a dieback/hebaceous perennial in colder zones but they are still shrubs. Not all shrubs are or should be pruned by the 1/3 method and not all are "bullet-proof monsters". And depending on the specific shrub and/or location, may very well need regular watering and sometimes even fertilizing. You are a sweetheart and generous with your advice but please, watch your broad generalizations and absolute statements. They are confusing and not very accurate. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| Gardengal - oh dear how wrong could I be? And there was me trying to think of the toughest hardiest things I could! All I can say is I'm really thankful I don't have to garden in Zone 5. Gardengal, did you look at the link? Is there anything there which would do the job? (And I see I left a 'co' out of the Christmas box.) |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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- Posted by whaas 5a Milwaukee (My Page) on
Sun, Jan 31, 10 at 15:12
| The problem is that I can't seem to find any lower growing, 2-3' tall shrubs that will thrive AND flower in both a full sun application (lets say up to 12 hours) and a 3-5 hour sun application...10 yrs down the road. I'd prefer planting the shrub that is tolerant in both situations (yes many options, but not in regards to flowers)...I don't mind replanting a shrub in 10 years but if I'm going to tick off the tree by disturbing its roots, that is what I don't want. The trees are/will be my pride and glory. So am I going to tick off the trees? Here are the trees in question...should I go for a more pernmanet shrub or plant something that I can replace without ticking off the tree? Katsura Tree --> currently Salix purpurea 'Nana' is 5' from the main trunk
Lilac Tree --> currently daylilies are planted 6' off the main trunk
River Birch --> currently daylilies are planted 6' off the main trunk
Ginkgo --> currently mums are planted 5' off the main trunk
Korean Maple --> speedwell will be planted 5' off the main trunk
Buckeye (small hybrid)
Yellowwood
Celebration maple --> currently geranium is 5' off the main trunk I'm considering leaving the perrenials there for 3-5 years, dig them up, and put a little Hydrangea/hosta in there. But if you think I'm off my rocker I can move them now and replace with a #1 cnt. shrub. And yes, I made the mistake of putting perennials that need dividing in front of multiple trees. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| Ken, We have what is called Earthkind program for roses in Texas. "Earth-Kind roses do well in a variety of soil types, ranging from well-drained acid sands to poorly aerated, highly alkaline clays. Once established, these select cultivars also have excellent heat and drought tolerance." After having grown them, they are very tough plants. Perhaps you've grown wrong roses.... |
Here is a link that might be useful: Texas Earthkind roses...
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| whaas, I understand the desire for flowers but sometimes that's not the only answer. I'd consider other small shrubs that may only offer a foliage effect and even better if some were evergreen. Spiraeas will do well in partial shade, dwarf pieris (if hardy for you), a dwarf oakleaf hydrangea or H. paniculata 'Little Lamb'(compact form), Euonymus fortunei 'Emerald Gaiety', Deutzia gracilis 'Nikko' or 'Chardonnay Pearls', Daphne 'Summer Ice', dwarf fothergilla.....just a few suggestions that could work. Flora, I agree colder climates do present obstacles....several of the plants you mention are among my favorites but just won't work in cold zones. I did look at your link and honestly, I have some issues with it. Many of the shrubs are just not hardy to zone 5, Daphne laureola is considered an invasive species in the areas where it does grow, and based on my personal exerience, I'd switch some of the full shade and partial shade shrubs - boxwoods will be very sparse in full shade but the aucuba loves it. And the hypericum is a useful groundcover on sunny slopes but is a major PITA if grown elsewhere (rampant spreader), is very prone to rust and really prefers full sun. |
RE: Shrubs under the dripline
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| I don't think you are going to tick off the trees by doing a small, replanting 5 or 10 years down the road. Especially if you use small containers and tuck them in where you can avoid major roots. I started with a blank slate in my backyard after my elms died. I was left with blazing full sun on sandy soil. After 7 years, parts of the yard are becoming increasingly shadier and I am going to have to remove/replace some of the plantings, but most are adapting fine to some shade. I knew this day would come, but because of the sun/soil conditions, I opted to use some plants, adapted to the short term conditions, that would eventually have to be replaced. |
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