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joe_fristoe

Need help picking a pine

Bama_Joe
9 years ago

Dave in Nove suggested using Loblolly Pine trees. I've searched and found this is the standard for the southeast, but wanted to get all the input I can from the folks here. I'm on a residential lot, somewhere over half an acre. My goal is shade for my dog with Lupus and Pannus (photo sensitive) and also for Camellias and Japanese Maples. I understand the loblollys will be much more effective than the Chinese Elms I had planted last fall and will be having them removed. I also want something out front, plan on a magnolia of some sort (dont want a monster though) and although there are powerlines out front running parallel to the street. Looks like this would be a fast, long lasting and all around effective way to accomplish the goal. Any thoughts?

Joe

Comments (43)

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    I like Pinus elliota, but maybe that's too southerly a species for you, not sure. I believe there are southern and northern subspecies.

    +oM

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    how many are you thinking about??? .... for a 1/2 acre lot.. minus house and driveway .... and presumably not planting within 20 to 30 of said structures????

    and how big you thinking at transplant ... i had these great dreams of planting trees for my toddlers to climb in ... when i moved in here ... in 2000 ... the trees are NEARLY climbable now.. and the kids are teens and dont go outside.. God forbid they miss something stupid on the WWW ... one might presume.. it will be a long time.. before you have significant shade ...

    ken

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Yes, for immediate shade you have to install something that can be made use of right away - patio umbrellas, gazebos, lath houses, arbors etc. This is never trees unless quite large ones are bought and planted.

    Evergreen conifers are much less suitable for shading plantings than broad-leaved deciduous trees, with even some popular kinds of the latter group being quite hard to garden under, once they get big enough. In general what you want to avoid are large parts and dense crowns. In the case of loblolly pine specifically you would have large dead needles and large cones falling on and around anything underneath, plus the resin that conifers emit. And there would be the all year gloom of evergreen trees. Conifers also direct rain away from their centers and out to the edges of their crowns, so that it can be quite dry beneath them most of the time.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I was under the impression that Pines are the most suitable for providing camellia shade, as they need it in the winter as well (especially Japonicas)? I don't expect immediate shade, but seeing how the Elms were just planted in mid October, I see the growth rate of Loblollys far outpacing them. I had planned on 15 gallon containers, since they should establish faster and are supposed to grow around 4 feet per year as well.

    I currently have 3 Elms out back (planted 3 months ago), one Kwanzan out front (planted in Oct as well) and that is the extent of my trees. I had planned on having them all removed and new trees planted, not adding to.

    The spacing, my backyard is 114 ft wide and 78 ft deep. From what I've seen, the pines can be spaced closer than the elms. Currently, I have the two elms planted to the sides and the middle elm towards the back of the yard. I just told my guy to plant them where he thought they should go, but turns out that isnt really achieving what I wanted.

    I've read about the Loblolly from universities, they seem to agree this is a vigorous and long lived tree and thrives in poor red clay (Alabama). It also provides light shade, which is what I want (do not want deep shade like a maple and dont want sun penetrating to my dog or the Camellias in the winter like it would with deciduous trees.

    I am very open to suggestions btw. I have afternoon shade for my camellias thanks to the neighbor's mature oak trees. My backyard faces South, with the Camellias facing East and the neighbors trees right behind them....hanging over my fence high above. My smaller dog loves eating their acorns.

    I'm pretty much starting from scratch with trees here and know there isnt any instant satisfaction, just trying to make the best choice here.

    Note - I believe the Elm nearest my house is 20 feet, with the furthest being the center Elm at 55 ft from the house and 40 ft from the patio.

    If pics would help, I could post some this evening. Might be easier to upload them to a gallery and share the link?

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    Joe, from what I've read of your post, my personal opinion is that pines are ideal for what you're setting out to do. Now do pine trees have cones and old, spent needles? Yes, of course, and I'll bet you already knew that! No tree is going to satisfy the requirements of the perfect amount of shade, coupled with a complete lack of droppings, etc.....etc.....etc! Pines are great, and they do grow fast.

    +oM

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Tom - I am aware of pine cones and pine needles (free mulch) dropping from pine trees. :)

    Say, anyone have experience with white pine? They seem to be a bit more sturdy, little better looking and still grow close to a Loblolly's speed? Also believe they have a more narrow spread, so closer spacing?

    Is the above true?

    This post was edited by Bama_Joe on Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 19:55

  • sam_md
    9 years ago

    Hi Bama,
    dave_in_nova gave you good advice, Loblolly Pine, with its clear, tall trunks and branches at the top gives ideal shelter to camellias beneath. When the needles are shed they make ideal mulch. There are some commercial camellia growers who seek out pine plantations for this reason. Of course they are growing in containers.
    In my area we seek areas where camellias are shaded from the morning sun which can damage the foliage in the winter. Not sure if that's a concern for you.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I am seeing leaf scorch, as well as the morning sun warming up the buds/flowers too quickly. You would say Loblolly over Eastern White Pine?

    Also, is it the same with pines....buy 15 gallon trees over 25 gallon?

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    i would NEVER buy a 15 nor a 25 gal ... of anything ... ever ...

    crikey.. the year after transplants.. most pines will grow 3 to 5 feet.. if you JUST water them properly ... mulch helps also ....

    the bigger ones.. will take 2 to 4 years to get to that growth rate.. if they were field grown... and dug and potted... which most are ... that is what happens.. when you cut off most of their roots for potting ... or BB

    how old are you joe??? ... are you tool enabled ... can you burn??? .... can you wield a chainsaw or sawzall ???

    if so.. over plant ... trim them up.. and in 5 to 10 years.. remove half ... its all about growing the pines.. not the freakin camellia .... your bass akwards.. in case you are also a fisherman .. lol .... in your priorities here ....

    crikey man ... grow the pines properly ... forget about a little leaf scorch ... i doubt it ever killed a properly watered plant ... though i have never grown camelia in MI .... and when you have the shade you need.. the Cs will be all set ...

    your view is short term ... and most gardeners.. the hardcore.. have a much longer term view .... you want immediate impact on your camelia.. from OTHER PLANTS ...

    in my world.. warped as it is.. i would grow the shade.. then be happy about the camelia ....

    in fact... if you are tool enabled.. and can burn wood ... hybrid poplars will give you shade inside a few years.. but they will need to be cut down.. the season before you have to pay someone to do it for you ...

    i know you have pix techno ... but all you ever posted were pix of individual trees ... climb on your roof and show us the whole yard... including the Cs... and let us give you some real insight ... rather than giving us bits and pieces.. and spending a lot of words trying to figure out whats going on ...

    well .. you up for the schtruggle???

    ken

    ps: if you buy smaller.. you dont need a 'plant guy' .. who apparently doesnt know what the heck he is doing ..... i think part of your problem.. is searching for immediate gratification thru buying big.. and this guy is more than willing to accept boat payments from you .. for things that wont solve your problems .... buying smaller.. allows you.. to be in charge of everything.. from choosing ..... to planting.. to killing.. its the circle of life... see link ... lol ...

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago

    BBoy is right, given what I know about your yard; if you really want to do it right, build a lathe house or semi-permanent shade structure and start your camellias within it. You may face less ire from the neighbors doing this in the back of your property. I came very close to doing this myself, but I have just enough shade that what I'm doing is planting rhododendrons and camellias in the available areas, to act as "nursery beds", with the plan to eventually move some of them into shade from new trees, in 10-20 years.

    You actually shouldn't get rid of the Ulmus Allees. I have one and wish I'd bought more. It isn't a perfect fast growing tree, but it's one of the better ones. In your area I would use a mix of southern pine species and hardwoods. That is what is typically seen sheltering BLEs in the south. Many camellias probably don't need winter shade in your climate, but the more tender ones could.

    If you are financially able to do so - don't rule out just selling your house and moving to a place that does have high shade. If you're really bitten by the camellia bug it would let you get started with permanent plantings much faster.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I have too nice of a neighborhood to move, so won't be doing that. I was under the impression that with the mature size of the allee elms, adding more trees would promote disease. If you've seen the pics of my yard, do you feel I could add a few pines without trouble? I love the lacebark, but they just don't cut it in the winter.

    Regarding the front yard, what could be done in place of the kwanzan, as well as adding another tree?

    This post was edited by Bama_Joe on Wed, Jan 21, 15 at 8:58

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    Just to address one of your questions, I'm not thinking white pine would be your best choice, for a variety of reasons; They actually can get quite wide-spreading with age, not narrow, they may not be well adapted to your locale-not sure on that-but it seems likely other southern pine species would be happier in "bama".

    Also, in a non-crikey way, I agree with Ken to start small, if these other guys don't put you off the pines altogether. Small, as in perhaps a two-foot starter plant, will develop rapidly. If you haven't yet seen this phenomenon, I think you might be amazed-at the fast growth of well-sited, well-maintained young pine trees. and BTW, well-maintained mostly means doing little to nothing for them, beyond the obvious of critter protection if needed, and attention to water should you end up in drought. Full sun too, of course....they're not plants for shade.

    We don't all always agree here, but I'm still onboard with your original idea. Makes sense to me. Nor do I think trees "grow slow". It's all relative, but even up here, with our relatively truncated growing season, young pine growth is measured in feet per year, not inches.

    +oM

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    In all honesty, I do believe the pines are king for camellias. The main issue for starting small is my two dogs, a German Shepherd and an Australian Sheherd. I'm not sure they would survive. Just spoke with our local nursery and all he has are small Loblolly pines and he cautioned me about the much higher chance of storm and wind damage. Wit as many storms as we have here, that's something I really need to consider, especially with their height.

  • Dave in NoVA • N. Virginia • zone 7A
    9 years ago

    Well, how about a nice spreading live oak then? Do you see those around there? Or are they too vulnerable to ice and snow damage?

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Camellias make great container specimens, which is what yours may end up having to be while you wait perhaps 20 years for your tree plantings to begin producing a woodland garden effect.

    Or maybe you have a permanent place for them on a shady side of the house.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Dave - I have never seen a Live Oak in all my travels. They are quite a site to behold from the pics I found. They are in Florida and supposed to withstand hurricane force winds, but appear to provide dense shade.

    bboy - I already have 5 Japonicas on the shade side of my yard, but the shady side on the West side of my house is not the place to plant (gas meter, other underground lines are there). I will never container garden, but could go with some Camellia Sasanqua out back if I really wanted to. I think I will just have to embrace the sun for now and find some things I can enjoy from the covered back porch. Maybe a butterfly bush, hardy hibiscus, something to draw hummers, butterflies, etc in. I've always liked the look of a large hydrangea or three, surrounded by evergreen shrubs.....

  • sam_md
    9 years ago

    Hi Bama,
    The best collection of camellias in my state is near Annapolis @ Londontown Publik House Gardens. They are growing under a variety of deciduous trees. One interesting observation, the volunteer seedlings are a real nuisance. They are gathered and discarded by the thousands.
    You might check out 4:40 of this youtube which shows camellias growing under loblolly as I mentioned earlier. Whether that's a realistic option for you I can't say.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Camellia Forest Nursery Youtube

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    That was a truly awesome video. That sums up why Camellias are everyone's cup of tea.

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    9 years ago

    I don't know how common they are in northern AL, but down here Spruce Pine (P glabra) makes a great yard tree. They have short dark green needles and small cones, and are quite dense if grown in full sun. They are also the most shade tolerant of the southern pines. The grayish bark looks more like an oak tree than the typical orange/brown pine bark.

  • josephene_gw
    9 years ago

    Bama joe, me again. How about a star magnolia for your front yard.
    Not a big tree but it blooms. I am fascinated by the big leaf magnolia too.
    It is a native to N Al. I have read a lot about the southern catalpa.
    Suppose to be a fast grower. I don't know much about pine trees like
    Them though. An arbor with Carolina jasmine would smell great in early
    March
    Dixie Carter told her husband that vines can make your garden seem older,
    More established.

  • tlbean2004
    9 years ago

    Here is a pic of my loblolly pine. It grew over 3ft last year.
    The first pic was taken in june and the second pic was taken last month. very fast growth and this tree got no other water besides the rain. The tree is less than 4 years old.

  • josephene_gw
    9 years ago

    Redbud tree for your front yd and back yd especially between your home and the neighbors trees. Bees will thank you.
    Dogwoods are great too but they don't like the hot afternoon sun, as in you see them growing at the edge of a forest. Dogwoods provide food for many
    Birds. Their flower buds form in the fall/winter so winter interest too.
    Jo

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    That pine needs to be moved away from that fence or it is going to be pushing into it some day.

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago

    I don't advocate the planting of trees near houses, which trees are going to get huge and cause safety issues. But then again, the trend toward itty-biity trees taking the place of large-growing stuff is a sort of mistake being perpetrated on the american landscape. Keep in mind folks, that redbud, that fl. crab, that (insert your small, ornamental, low-growing tree here) are going to crown out right at head-height. I'm talking about YOUR head. A big maple, elm or oak is going to eventually be doing all its business high up over your head and out of the way of human activity. It seems nobody gets this anymore.

    The small stuff has its place. Just don't make the all-too-common mistake of small space=small-growing tree. These low spreading things actually require more, not less space in the landscape.

    +om

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I found some 7 gallon Virginia Pines for $25, supposed to be less prone to breakage. Not sure if I want to plant them or not, now. They aren't supposed to grow as fast, but I guess thats what you exchange for strength.

    Thanks for sharing the pic, bean.

    Jo - Id plant a redbud there if it wasn't where the privacy fence double gate was. Believe I am just going to go with a magnolia out front, a butterfly/hummingbird garden out back, with a Tamukeyama and Crimson Queen, maybe a Chaste Lilac as well. Embrace my situation and enjoy the creatures God gave me....all from the hammock under my covered porch...probably with my Australian Shepard laying with me. :)

    Tom - Appreciate all your advice and the manner in which you gave it, Jo as well.

    Now all I have to do is decide between a DD Blanchard and a Little Gem.

    Thanks all!

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I found some 7 gallon Virginia Pines for $25, supposed to be less prone to breakage. Not sure if I want to plant them or not, now. They aren't supposed to grow as fast, but I guess thats what you exchange for strength.

    Thanks for sharing the pic, bean.

    Jo - Id plant a redbud there if it wasn't where the privacy fence double gate was. Believe I am just going to go with a magnolia out front, a butterfly/hummingbird garden out back, with a Tamukeyama and Crimson Queen, maybe a Chaste Lilac as well. Embrace my situation and enjoy the creatures God gave me....all from the hammock under my covered porch...probably with my Australian Shepard laying with me. :)

    Tom - Appreciate all your advice and the manner in which you gave it, Jo as well.

    Now all I have to do is decide between a DD Blanchard and a Little Gem.

    Thanks all!

  • tlbean2004
    9 years ago

    bboy

    That pine wll be cut down in the next few years... maybe...lol

    The first few inches of trunk are on the other side of the fence then it started growing upwards on my side. It is fun to watch it grow so much so fast though.

    But about 10ft down from in is another tree right next to the fence that grew alot this past summer aswell. It is about 2 inches from the power line overhead,
    When the electric company cuts that down (if they even notice it before it hits the wires, then they can go ahead and cut the pine down aswell. I should have tried to transplant it when is was less that 4 feet but i did not feel like digging up the fence and asking the neighbours permission. the house next door is actually rented out.

  • tlbean2004
    9 years ago

    bboy

    That pine wll be cut down in the next few years... maybe...lol

    The first few inches of trunk are on the other side of the fence then it started growing upwards on my side. It is fun to watch it grow so much so fast though.

    But about 10ft down from in is another tree right next to the fence that grew alot this past summer aswell. It is about 2 inches from the power line overhead,
    When the electric company cuts that down (if they even notice it before it hits the wires, then they can go ahead and cut the pine down aswell. I should have tried to transplant it when is was less that 4 feet but i did not feel like digging up the fence and asking the neighbours permission. the house next door is actually rented out.

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    New properties in built up areas are being designed with minimal or even nonexistent ground space around the structures. Dwarf-growing trees and other small ornamentals is all there will be room for.

    'Little Gem' is prone to low temperatures and snow breakage. In my area it also mildews unless moisture conditions and exposure are just right (many mildew in pots at retail outlets, some mildew after being planted out into the landscape). I would plant the other cultivar instead - it only takes one winter with a good dump of wet snow to break this tree in half.

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    9 years ago

    Little Gem grows sloooow too. Actually all of those cultivars seem to grow slower than the straight species.

    Nellie Stevens holly might be worthy of consideration.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I scratched the Magnolia idea due to how dense the shade is. 1.5 feet per year isn't as slow was some, but is slow.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I wanted to come back to say I purchased some 7(?) gallon slash loblolly hybrids for $12 each. Planted first week of April, battled tortoise scale and pine aphids, but man....those things really grow! I had the greatest growth at the end of summer and still going...guess they root fairly quickly. It's nice to walk outside and all of the sudden....you're looking up and asking yourself....when the heck did this happen. I did move two of them today, to the back of the yard. Dug deep and wide as to not lose root mass and was concerned about a taproot. These were container raised btw. Happy happy happy.


    quick note regarding the previous landscaper's advice on Virginia pines. Did some research and they are very susceptible to breakage, while loblolly pines survive hurricanes. Go figure...he's giving Auburn University a bad name.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Sounds right-on to me, Joe. glad it's working out.

    I know very well the sensation of looking up at a young treetop! Yes, it is uncommonly gratifying.

    +oM

  • bengz6westmd
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Yes, the southern pines grow long into the season. Sometimes a problem when planting into colder zones like mine, but mine seem to have adjusted after yrs and stop growing earlier than they did at first -- no terminal bud death lately.

    Slash/loblolly hybrids should be quite nice. Below is my loblolly w/a smaller ponderosa:


  • Campanula UK Z8
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Don't scoff because I am such a novice but I instantly thought of the lovely spreading stone pines (pinus pinea)...

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    8 years ago

    Keep an eye out for fusiform rust cankers on the branches. If you see it trim the branch off, or else it'll make its way into the main stem. Both Loblolly and Slash pines are susceptible to cankers here in south AL... loblolly tends to get them on the branches, while Slash tends to get them on the trunk (or both). Longleaf and Shortleaf pines are resistant.

  • Bama_Joe
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    Regarding fusiform, look for orange liquid?
  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    8 years ago

    Swelled areas, they may ooz sap at later stages.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Alabama, do you happen to know the southward range of that pathogen? I'm wondering about some unhealthy Pinus elliota I saw in S. Florida last year. Seemd like individual branches and branch tips were being affected, browining needles, etc. I did not look closely. Maybe this coming Jan. when I revisit that area.

    +oM

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Tom, there is a map in this site that gives you an idea of the range.

    http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divisions-Offices/Florida-Forest-Service/Our-Forests/Forest-Health/Forest-Health-Publications/Insects-and-Diseases/Fusiform-Rust

    In my area Q.nigra is everywhere, which is the most common alternate host. I doubt it was that big of a problem before Loblolly and Slash started being planted on a mass scale by the paper companies.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Oh dear, that doesn't look good. When I'm down there, it seems like I'm the only person in the state that likes and cares about Pinus elliota stands. To me, they are a thing of rare and exceeding beauty, these "pine flatwoods". But to all the guys in bulldozers pushing them into piles, no such love appears to exist!

    The map does not appear to show that pathogen as active in the area I frequent-the Fort Myers area. Thanks.

    +oM

  • PRO
    Colonial Williamsburg
    8 years ago

    A grove of hemlocks can get what your looking for done with not much height and less clean up. Plus more attractive than lobs

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