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acorn germination
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Posted by
poaky1 6 Pa (
My Page) on
Wed, Jan 5, 11 at 23:41
| I have decided to try Quercus virginiana as bonsai. I have got seed and sowed them in a pot and watered them. The question I have is with Live oak being a white oak vs red is this seed going to need any cold treatment? I know the radicle should start going down with no cold needed but what about the top? And if the top follows suit, it may still be winter when this happens and there will still be less daylight and the tree ( in front of basement window ) may be effected by the lack of sun. I plan on overwintering it in my basement.I never noticed the other white oak family seeds I've sown sprouting tops because it was winter outdoors where I sowed them, so they came up in spring.The bonsai forum wasn't helpful on Quercus virginiana growth habits. |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: acorn germination
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| my understanding is that cool air temps (below about 45f) will inhibit above ground shoots. however, if you do see top growth, you will probably want to place the plants in a still relatively cool but well lit area for best development of the shoot. hope this helps. good luck. |
RE: acorn germination
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| This tree will be an indoor bonsai,I guess it will germinate in the 62 -65F basement since I can't put it outside in my zone 6 yard. I tried covering the soil to keep it dark hoping that will deter top growth. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Now I don't do bonsai.. but you'd be better off digging up a larger specimen (or buying one from a nursery) and then cutting it back and then working the branches. Growing a plant from seed in a small container indoors would take entirely too long. Being that Live Oak don't grow that far north (I don't think) I'd try to order one? As I said I don't do any bonsai personally I just am repeating what I have read from researching the topic myself -it seemed interesting. Good Luck. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I appreciate your answering the question but I have the seed which I got special for this purpose and all 5 seed sunk in a bucket of water ( should be viable) so I am pretty expectant of germination, so I don't want to go through the alternative of getting another tree. It may be a nice fat trunk if I order another tree, I am a bonsai newbie maybe your idea is better for bonsai but I will try my seed. I actually only sowed 1 seed in a pot, I put the rest outside cause I'm a hard-head trying to grow Q Virginiana in Pa. I put them in protected sites though, it's an experiment of sorts. Anyway, I will try growing the seed tree without pruning it until the trunk gets fairly thick, which would be what a nursery tree would be like. It's weird to try bonsai when your used to trying to help your trees maximize growth. I'm not sure I can mercilously trim roots and branches to stunt them. I will try it though. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Hope ypu have plenty of patience cos oaks from seed will take years to get to trainable size. And then it needs to spend most of its life in the ground thickening up. Oak bonsai from seed? 10-20 years to look like a bonsai. Better off with an air layer of a good size branch. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Also an oak will not work as an indoor tree- it needs the cool temps and good light to ripen its branches |
RE: acorn germination
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| I've started many live oaks from acorns in the winter time...indoors under lights. They grow fine in warm temps and it gives them a head start before setting them outside in Spring. These trees grow natively all the way into Mexico, so do not really need to be cold in winter. They sprout immediately with some moisture and warmth. Don't keep soil too wet or they might rot. Beware: next Spring when you put your little oak seedlings outside, cover with wire netting or the squirrels and chipmunks will dig the acorns and chew the small stems in half. You'll lose your crop. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I only have 1 in a pot in the basement, it's still an acorn now. The seeds I put outside while potential meals are fortunately close to the house ( 50 feet) and we have 10 indoor- outdoor cats on patrol 24-7 I (knock on wood ) am not too worried about them my last year Quercus rubor acorns came up good, I know non- subtropical oaks would need the winter cold for good growth but the Live oak is kinda a mystery to me as far as that goes.Florida and Georgia is where they do best, Georgia gets some cold ( especialy now) but Miami usually doesn't get really cold and they grow great there.I didn't see any in the Fla keys when I went around Thanksgiving to visit a friend on big pine key, we went to key west and if there are any Quercus Virginiana there I didn't see them, they may be there but I saw alot of truly tropical trees and none of them. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I forgot to ask, greenlarry why would it take 10-20 years to look like a bonsai? How thick of girth are you talking about to take so long? I don't know anything about layering and grafting. I have yet to get a book on bonsai, I have no knowledge of how it's done, at all! I would be afraid to cut a potted live oak to the knees,in my mind it won't grow anything back unless you are near a bud. So I am going to get a good book, I have 3 authors names in my notebook which were recommended on the bonsai forum. I read on the bonsai forum that Live oak Quercus virginiana was a candidate for bonsai, I will slowly acclimate it to take full sun in the spring, but will winter it over in the basement. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Poaky, bonsai is a long term investment and ypu have to work from the bottom upwards. The first thing to work out is ultimate size, then you need to get the trunk good and thick in proportion to its height so it looks old. A good ratio is 3:1. So if your tree is to be 12 inches tall you need a trunk of about 4 unches diameter. To get that takes a long time spent in open ground. This is why bonsai fetch big $$,, they take yeats of work to even look like a bonsai. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I may have to put it in a greenhouse over winter but have it in the ground.I have the other acorns I've sowed after reading that there are Quercus Virginiana growing in Dayton, Ohio, probably in the city. with concrete all around, but I have a microclimate I just had to try them in.I can let the perspective bonsai thicken but will have to dropcrotch to keep it under 12 ft, the greenhouse height. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Open ground in a greenhouse? As in, not in a pot? How tender is this species of oak because my oak has been in the geound for 4 years now and is no thicker really. You need to get it planted out and leave it for a year. Then dig it up, check the roots then chop the tree back hard. Then plant it back in the ground for another couple of years. Repeat several times till the trunk is good and thick. Of course you might not want a big bonsai- you might prefer a much smaller tree in which case you can have a less thick trunk. It will still require time planted out for root and leaf vigour. But bonsai take time and I'd suggest trying some good books. |
RE: acorn germination
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| In order to be pretty sure the tree survives winter I would have to protect it. I am trying to grow the same tree as a full size specimen also. To make things clearer this tree is zone 7 and warmer, I am in zone 6. If I can protect it as a bonsai I can increase the chance of survival, being small I can cover it over winter.I have the other seeds in a area with a tall wooden fence stopping north wind and a wall of cement block and a barn on the other side, mulch on the ground. The side that's more open is the south corner.My reason for puting it in the ground is because I thought that may help it increase girth faster. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Yes putting it in the ground is essential for growth, especially girth, but its a problem for tender species! I would have that problem if i tried ficus- it would not get much thicker and I 'd have to accept a scrawny bonsai. Its why outdoor hardy species are better to work on. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I can see your point greenlarry.You are doing bonsai because you want a bonsai, and I am doing it because I want a Quercus Virginiana and keeping it small is how to protect it in the winter. I am doing it for the wronge reasons!It would be no good to put it in a greenhouse in the ground because nobody can see the evergreen leaves anyway.If I keep it in the house where I can see it in the winter it won't be a good bonsai for a long time.I will keep it in the pot and play it by ear, if it flops I'll be out 1 acorn. There is still a chance those I sowed outside may be okay ( one in a warmer area) it's 1 zone difference, technically we rarely see 0F and very rarely less than that.I have a hardier dwarf form of the live oak coming from a nursery, that shouldn't need protection, thanks for your input Greenlarry. |
RE: acorn germination
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You can use a larger container or a grow-box/training box to help it size up more swiftly....
while still being able to move it for protection.
Josh |
RE: acorn germination
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| How big? As big as I can pick up and move?I have a plastic planter that is about 3 gallon or 4 gallon. It's semi-thick walled, so should be okay to set the tree out in summer full sun with me monitoring soil moisture.I am a bit unsure of soil preferences of live oak. In Florida I think some places are high lime content and Georgia has clay which I've always thought was acidic. I 'm sure there are varying soil conditions. When doing a search under Q. Virginiana soil preference there is usually sandy, loam, well drained, and generally any soil except boggy.Being that it will be in a container should I add peat moss or will that be overly acidic? I already have the peat moss, I have a half a bag of potting soil (the non peaty heavier stuff)as well as vermiculite and perlite.When I planted one in my yard it loved the soil even though the top didn't survive the winter, when I dug it up the roots were surprisingly getting established in that soil. Is sterilizing some of that soil and adding it to a mixture for a pot a no no?I mean about 3 cups per 3-4 gallon container. I also have granite chips, the chicken gizzard kind that chickens use to help grind their food. |
RE: acorn germination
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| This is perhaps a bit late for this thread, but I have friends who are growing Quercus Virginiana seedlings indoors in winter/outdoors in summer in my Z4 climate and they are growing well. I have a Q. fusiformis indoors and it is healthy and overwinters indoors. The key thing about them is to let them dry out between waterings. |
RE: acorn germination
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| I have gotten some super-hardy Quercus Fusiformis acorns from cactusgardener on the Oklahoma gardening forum. I just got them in the mail. The ones mentioned in the above posts never germinated! These I just got are from trees that have experienced -20 F winters. So if they don't do good I will have to stop trying evergreen oaks. I was only trying bonsai to keep the trees portable. I really want a big tree outside, so bonsai isn't for me. |
RE: acorn germination
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| Poaky, I have some one year Live Oak seedlings you can have if you want them. These are from trees in Pensacola, and it gets fairly cold up here in the northern tip of the panhandle (single digits back in the 1980's). |
RE: acorn germination
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| Thanks for offering Alabamatreehugger, but I've got 32 q fusiformis acorns from cactusgardener and some cherrybark oak acorns from another poster from Indiana, and I think I,ve finally run out of room for any more trees! If I thought they would do good I would jump at the offer. I think that the only way I would try a Q. Virginiana is if it was from Virginia, being pretty northern. I don't think it would survive here. Give it to someone who won't kill it. These Q Fusiformis are said to be below zero hardy. We don't get - 0 that often but it happens sometimes. We get 3 months of around 32 F almost every day. Your seedling would be like "What the heck happened ? Where the hell am I"?I know that's silly, but anyway, if I thought it had a chance I would gladly try it. It was nice of you to offer though. |
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