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Zone confusion
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Posted by
poaky1 6 Pa (
My Page) on
Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 2:48
| My zone 6 has not been - 0 F since the 80's. The ULTIMATE lows have been 6 F to 8 F above zero. That is the rare LOW temps. Our normal lows are 13 F to the 20's. The normal regular temps are 20's and low 30's. Those are in January pretty much. I have had good luck with some Live oaks this winter SO FAR. I mention this because it has been mentioned that zones are judges on the average lows. If that were STILL true Pa would be zone 8. Our AVERAGE lows are in the 20's and ULTIMATE lows would in the teens_ 7F. At the most conservative we would be zone 7. We are colder for longer than more SOUTHERN states too. |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 8:47
| Count your blessings. I'm not far from you, but it was -9F here in 2011 (after the record snow). Several other below zero temps. Granted, there hasn't been extremely cold temps since ~1994 (-20F in many areas). Just naturally cyclic (often a rough 30 yr cycle) winters temps. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Check the new Arbor Day zone map or the updated USDA. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Take it all with a big, big grain of salt. I find that one 'revised' zone map often does not correlate with one from another source. It has to do with mean temps and not potential highs and lows. It doesn't not take into account microclimates. I know my zone, and chuckle when I see some have placed this hilly, Appalachian area in the SE of Ohio in the same zones at Cleveland or Cincinnati. It just ain't so in real life. When I listen to weather forecasts, I get a more accurate picture when identifying with West Virginia than our state's capital. There are also so many other factors involved in a plant's winter hardiness (such as rainfall and summer temps, snow cover) it's simply a guide. When I worked for a landscaper, he would always recommend going a zone lower than what you are listed to handle the very sure lows under your zone average. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Beng, I am super shocked that you were colder than me in 2011. You are closer to the Atl. Ocean. I know that the revised hardiness maps have made my area zone 6. I think we haven't been colder, maybe 5b, since the 70's. The live oaks are probably a back-cross of hardier varieties, but are closer to the Southern live oaks than others I've started growing. I do know the difference between my yard with it's zone 7 minimum temps, and the real zone 7 yards who get warmer earlier in Spring, and stay warmer in late summer/ fall. I am just East of the Appalatian Mts. They are clearly visable from my front porch. If you don't mind Calliope where are you? You can't be too far from me. My post may make some ask why I posted this subject, there isn't much else going on anyway, is there? |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Sat, Feb 16, 13 at 9:37
| Poaky, I'm just east of Cumberland, MD in the middle of the Appalachians. I'd guarantee your area was well below zero F in Jan 1994 (Hagerstown MD was -20F two mornings in a row). Prb'ly Feb 1996 too when lows of -24F to -27F were recorded in extreme SW VA. Jan 1985 also had far below zero readings (VA state record of -30F set @ Mountain Lake). |
RE: Zone confusion
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| During that cold snap, we hit -30. In my edition of Dirr, he talks about it wiping out almost all of the Viburnum tomentosum in New England. It was big, and it was nasty. I have yet to find a free weather database where you can easily find winter low temperatures for multiple years for an area. Truly remarkable cold leaves a trail of daily record lows, but for most information, people rely on memory, which isn't always accurate. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I have yet to find a free weather database where you can easily find winter low temperatures for multiple years for an area. I can't find the bookmark for some reason, but NOAA has a dataset for each 1 minute x 1 minute of area in the country. I found the historical data for our area and elevation to be quite accurate and made a table out of it. Of course I can't find it now. Might have been from the GFDL or just NOAA. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Found it in browser history - NCDC but I can't find the table I made for percent chance of frost :o\ |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Thanks! I've downloaded temperature extremes for the closest station. Some of the data points seem fishy, like a low of -23 for Jan 2011, but I guess it is possible. In the latest USDA zone map, there is an odd point of 5a in the same area as this weather station, and I am wondering if there is a connection. Now I just need to figure out exactly where it is. The only quasi-official object in the area is an elementary school, and it might be that. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| USDA and Arborday hardiness zone ratings are indeed STILL (as always) based on the average annual minimum temperature. The biggest differences (that causes the different sources to reach slightly different results) are 1. the specific years taken into consideration, 2. the number of years used for the calculations, and 3. the way the years are weighted. It used to be that a certain number of years were considered and all years were weighed equally, but that is no longer always true. The UDSA system finesses the weighting to try to make the numbers more relevant. Whether they've succeeded is up for interpretation. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Whether they've succeeded is up for interpretation. Around these parts these days we hit our average minimum about once a decade, getting warmer in the winter. Even though we had a long period of below normal temps, we had only one night below zero. So here we all interpret it. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Poaky, I have to ask, "by what measure" are you insisting that the temperature has not reached your zone's normal minimum? Is this a personal weather station? A cooperative station? An airport station? I could ask more questions but we'll start from there... Note: For some reason I originally addressed this to Beng, which is a sure sign that I need a nap, LOL |
This post was edited by famartin on Sun, Feb 17, 13 at 12:13
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 8:04
| 8F (-14C) this morning, so there's no lack of cold here. Hoping it might slow down the dang moles chewing thru & building mounds on my lawn . |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Hey beng. 18F here at about 6:30. Moles don't take a vacation, do they? This winter is the coldest in 4 years for us, but the mole hills are the worst in 25 years. Some will have to be leveled by hand before I mow. On the plus side, they do make trails in the clay so the water drains. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I have a Jack Russell/Italian greyhound hybrid. I'd prefer to not even talk about mole mounds. Our property looks like a mine-field and walking the dog is become an exercise in frustration as he wants to scope out and excavate them all. I have to harness him to keep him from disappearing down groundhog holes. I have a friend with ratties who has had to dig her dogs out after they do an Alice in Wonderland number down holes. |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (NW) (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 20:06
-2 the other day. 45 degrees and rain today with all the moisture running off yet again. -1 for a low tomorrow.
Snowstorm rolling in later in the week. Its been a rollercoaster this winter. I'm more annoyed with the sub zero temps freezing the ground then raining and melting all the snow as run off. I've gotten more RAIN this winter then I did ALL summer. Generally speaking the lows have been fairly average. Coldest day this winter was -8. If the ground thaws and is workable in mid to late March then I'll be happy. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| .I live West of the Appalacian Mtns, NOT East like I put in my post, sorry about that. Anyway, my info of not being -0 for 20 years, is memory, talking to neighbors and whatching the weather channel. It is not fool proof. I am going to try to get some less human sources. Well, maybe documented by humans but reliably kept up over the years. I will try the NOAA link, if that doesn't help maybe the PennState lab can refer me. This winter (so far) the lowest low has been 6 or 7 F. I am sure I could've missed a day here or there in the 1990's. I have been using only a thermometer for my yard. It is on the porch which is open, but brick, so a couple degrees off. I also have one out back open to the weather. I will post back with results if I can find a source. This is the coldest winter I can remember for a while. We aren't below 0, but have many days of 8-13 F, when usually lows are about 18 F or in the 20's. Our dogs don't dig much and have a fenced in place, but cats are another thing, you can't teach them anything anyway. They poop and pee and move mulch all over the place. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| OK, west of the Appalachians in PA, I'm guessing that means you aren't far from Pittsburgh? Here are the last 30 minimum winter temps for PIttsburgh Airport: 1980-1981: -8
1981-1982: -18
1982-1983: 2
1983-1984: -15
1984-1985: -18
1985-1986: -2
1986-1987: -2
1987-1988: -3
1988-1989: 2
1989-1990: -12
1990-1991: 4
1991-1992: -1
1992-1993: -1
1993-1994: -22
1994-1995: -4
1995-1996: -6
1996-1997: -1
1997-1998: 6
1998-1999: -1
1999-2000: 1
2000-2001: 1
2001-2002: 9
2002-2003: -4
2003-2004: -1
2004-2005: -1
2005-2006: 3
2006-2007: -5
2007-2008: 3
2008-2009: -10
2009-2010: -1
2010-2011: -1
2011-2012: 3 If you are closer to Erie, here's the results at Erie Airport: 1980-1981: -11
1981-1982: -15
1982-1983: 4
1983-1984: -10
1984-1985: -16
1985-1986: -1
1986-1987: 1
1987-1988: -1
1988-1989: 4
1989-1990: 0
1990-1991: 6
1991-1992: 1
1992-1993: 0
1993-1994: -18
1994-1995: 3
1995-1996: -9
1996-1997: -1
1997-1998: 16
1998-1999: 0
1999-2000: 3
2000-2001: 4
2001-2002: 12
2002-2003: 0
2003-2004: -5
2004-2005: -5
2005-2006: 4
2006-2007: -1
2007-2008: 3
2008-2009: -6
2009-2010: -2
2010-2011: -6
2011-2012: 4 Suffice it to say, if the two most prominent cities in western PA have been below zero multiple times, then I suspect you have been below zero multiple times as well. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I am not far from Pittsburgh in loose terms. On mapquest I am 57.46 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. I want to find results for Uniontown Pa that is 4 miles from me. I know those aren't what my yard was for the last decade. If you can find stats for Uniontown please do, but Pittsburgh being near me means a general area, it's nearly 60 miles away. I am closer to Wv. It is 31.48 miles from my driveway to the Wv line the best town of referrence is Morgantown, Wv. I should have mentioned Wv, but was thinking closest big town in Pa. My town weather on the Weather channel lists Uniontown, Pa, so that would be the closest match to my yard. I am not sure where our local temperature station is. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Here's the data for NWS Cooperative station Uniontown 1NE, PA. Its not much different: 1980-1981: Missing
1981-1982: Missing
1982-1983: -2
1983-1984: -16
1984-1985: -17
1985-1986: -5
1986-1987: -3
1987-1988: -5
1988-1989: -3
1989-1990: -14
1990-1991: 6
1991-1992: 3
1992-1993: -3
1993-1994: -22
1994-1995: -1
1995-1996: -15
1996-1997: -3
1997-1998: 1
1998-1999: -1
1999-2000: -7
2000-2001: -3
2001-2002: 9
2002-2003: -2
2003-2004: -6
2004-2005: -7
2005-2006: 1
2006-2007: -2
2007-2008: 3
2008-2009: -10
2009-2010: 0
2010-2011: -6
2011-2012: 6 Here's a personal weather station on Wunderground which is located just WSW of Uniontown. Uniontown
Not nearly as much data available but here are its winter lows: 2006-2007: -2
2007-2008: 6
2008-2009: -5
2009-2010: 4
2010-2011: -3
2011-2012: 8 |
This post was edited by famartin on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 5:45
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 9:57
| Poaky, watching the Weather/Disaster channel is the problem.... |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I am surprised to see the numbers for Uniontown. Especially those lower than a few degrees below zero like the minus 10 in 2008-2009. I guess I am really zone 6. Those lows probably weren't for many hours though. I saw where one of the weather stations was and it is about 5 miles from me, so is close enough. Those last 6 showing 3 years of slightly below zero are very shocking, I have tried to whatch forecasts religiously. Well, I guess what was forecasted isn't always right on. Most plants I like are zone 6 hardy. The live oaks I just planted are still doing good but their genetics are in question anyway, they are said to be back-crosses of 2 live oaks possibly, and grow faster than my Q. Fusiformis, and if that is true, I can stop obsessing about having a non-dwarf live oak in my yard and shut up about it other than posting pictures of it growing well in my yard. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Many moons ago I was a weatherman. I do my own forecasts and all that. I recommend Mesowest as a good starting point and using that network to find a trusted station. All states in the US have some sort of similar network - CA has several as ag is so important there. CoCoRaHS is an amateur measurement network for precip. that is OK depending upon where you are. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I can only go by Morgantowns weather on the Mesowest site. Uniontown is blank on that link. Beng, I know what you mean about the Weather channel.They are showing repetes of Tornados, floods, earthquakes, and Hurricanes. They are airing shows about space weather. That may interest some people but that is Discovery channel stuff if you ask me. It may go the way of Mtv and show everything but weather, just joking....... for the most part. I still don't remember being minus 0 F for decades, but these lows were probably a few hours long, and I never heard about it. My Arbor day zones for hardiness are listed as zone 6-7. My zip code is 15480 Uniontown is about 4 miles from me and is also zone 6-7 that zip is 15401. Well, whatever I am zone 6. |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Sat, Feb 23, 13 at 9:02
| Poaky, if I didn't have my min/max thermometer, I'd miss those lows too. Like high-temps, they don't last long. Get yourself a min/max thermometer. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Here's a text listing of MesoWest reports for PA, listed by county... I find it a bit more useful personally. |
Here is a link that might be useful: MesoWest PA text listing
RE: Zone confusion
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| Both zone maps are flawed and are meant to be used as a baseline for your general area. The updated map takes the urban heat island effect into account as well as the recorded warming trend over the last 30. Its also hard to take smaller microclimates into account as well. There is a narrow band of zone 4 and 5 near the lake here, whereas you go 20 miles away its zone 3. IT would also depend on where the temp data is taken. Here it is 18km away from the lake so its just on the edge of the moderating effect. The best thing is to use the zone maps as a guide, and install a few thermometers around your yard so you can see proper temps and how buildings/trees affect certain areas. It also doesnt take into account us using protection as well as snowpack/leaf litter which effects a plants survival. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Beng, where can I get a min/max thermometer? Is it something easily found at the big box stores, or something more complicated to find? Canadianplant, I've had people mention microclimates before to me, that is good for small plants especially, unless of course it's a large body of water or the heat island effect of a big city. I still want to grow things that like it warmer in winter than it stays here, but I have had good luck with some plants that were supposed to be zone 7, but the growers had hinted on them possibly being back-crossed with a hardier Variety of their species and I think I hit the jackpot and have what I have been doggedly searching for, (a zone 6 hardy regular sized Live oak tree) but spring will prove if I am right or not for sure, as of today it still looks okay.. So if my zone isn't warmer, I'll be happy if the tree can adapt due to it's genetics. The Palms can be covered in the worst freezes. I can take em or leave them I guess. I just have this love of Live oak trees, I have a couple doing fine but they are slow growing and those closer related to the full sized Q. Virginiana are my quary. I have 2 or 3 that I am happy to say, have survived this winter, so far. Although not below zero, it has been a tough winter compared to at least the last few. We have had many days of teens and low 20's. One is in a pot but close to the house. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| "Beng, where can I get a min/max thermometer?" Heard of google?
go to http://www.google.com/shopping enter
"min/max thermometer"
don't forget to press the submit icon next to the text box! |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Depends on what you want to do, but there are a whole variety of home weather stations out there. I put that in the link below. Usually (but not always) you get more bang for your buck, including accuracy. Of course, a weather station won't be reliable if you don't site it properly, which means out in the open, away from trees and buildings (at least, as much as is possible for your property). I have two stations, one at my parents' home in New Jersey and one here in Nevada. Here's the one in New Jersey. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Home weather stations google search
RE: Zone confusion
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| The anemometer is located up on a conveniently located utility support pole ;) See link below for the data from the electronic portion of the station. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ewing NJ weather station data
RE: Zone confusion
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| And here's the one I have here in Nevada. Again, see link at bottom for the data from the electronic portion. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Elko NV weather station data
RE: Zone confusion
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| I sure would like to have that first setup there, famartin. And the rain that falls from the sky. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| The set-up in NV and NJ is very high tech if you can access the info online. Can I get a min/max thermometer that is self contained and easier or is this what you have too Beng? And davidrt28 I wanted a reply from someone who has and recommended one of these thermometers to me. I hate google and don't go on the shopping links because the results you get are often CRAP. Many posters on here can Google for the answer to their question, but real people can sometimes help better than a stupid search engine, take your attitude and stuff it up your pattutty. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Regardless of the reasoning, the last 30 years have on a general warming trend for most of NA. The thing is when people hear that, they dont understand that the swings will still go both ways. Just because we are in a warming trend, does not mean Arizona wont get snow, if anything the variability that is now in the atmosphere will make it more likely to happen. The other thing you have to take into concideration when looking at your areas climate data, is where it taken. Here its taken at the airport which is roughly 20km from the lake. The south facing hills that surround the city, coupled with the lake creates a moderating effect that can leave winter temps around 5C warmer than near the airport. Ive tested this and its true. The zone maps dont take into account smaller micro climates, rainfall, and late frosts. The only way to be sure is to set up multiple thermometers and use plants that have reliable information (indicator plants) |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (NW) (My Page) on
Sat, Mar 2, 13 at 8:38
| I definitely think the ranges for WI are too widespead. I'm 10 miles outside the 5b zone so I'm very comfortable using zone 5 plants. Sometimes I'll try a borderline 5/6 plant. Based on temperature alone my area averages 3-5 degrees colder than my friends closer to the lake. What I don't understand is that my friends 100 miles north are zone 5a yet and based on temperature alone average 10-13 degrees colder. I guess thats where you'd consider the low and high range between zones. However someone north of me might focus on the higher range of lows thinking they can stretch it but in reality they're at the lower range of lows. Just another factor to consider. At the end of the day I think it takes quite abit of observation of your specific weather trends (even in your own yard), looking at some historical data then the plants themselves. In the last 7 years I've only seen the upper end of lows (-15) hit a couple times. Last year it never dropped below zero. This year hit -8 for a low (so far). Its bound to happen (every 20 years or so) but I'm hoping that -25 never hits during my gardening tenure. Mainly as it means there will likely be a stretch. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I still find it hard to beleive that there were any - 0's each time those years were listed above in this thread, but if it is listed as happening somewhere about 5-6 miles from me, I can't argue with a reputable source of data. I am not going to purchase a expensive set-up, but will see if I can find something that can store info short term, to be checked daily, and put it away from the house but not too far as to not be able to check it in a lot of snow. |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 8:04
| 12 to 18 inches snow forecast for my area on Wednesday. March indeed. Poaky, just get a min/max thermometer & a simple stick-in-the-ground (or mount if you want) rain-gauge. I don't check mine every day, just after a rain event or temperature extreme. I used to record daily (for yrs), but it was too much of a bother. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Sure would be nice to have an affordable automated option that connects with your wifi and updates to an online server for daily temp/precip records. You could then log in from anywhere to check your records. I would shell out a couple Benjamens for this setup and I would think it shouldn't be that difficult to manufacture. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Beng, I think Poaky was hoping you could do something like point him in the direction of a specific product you'd recommend, like a link to it on Amazon or something. I can't really help since I have the "high tech, expensive" setup and never tried one of the lower tech ones. There are cheaper systems out there than the two I have. LaCrosse and Oregon Scientific manufacture them. The one I have is made by Davis Instruments and they are a pretty penny (but very reliable with virtually no maintenance). |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (NW) (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 13:27
| jon, I'll sign up for that too! Then I have my own history from my yard. Lets go in on this and patent it. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| The problem I've run into is that the batteries run into trouble at temperatures below about zero. Since that is where I start being fascinated by winter temperatures, it makes the cheaper sensors useless. Places like Agway sell min/max thermometers. I've got two of them. One lives on the back deck, the other in the garage. Since I overwinter a fair number of plants in the garage, it's good to know what sorts of temperatures they are exposed to. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| The Davis one I have here in Nevada was down to -16 a couple times this winter with daytime highs in the single digits, it performed pretty well. Only a degree or so difference from the nearby airport station. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| Removed to protect trade secrets ;) |
This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 10:02
RE: Zone confusion
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| I'm sure what is high tech to me is not high tech to some on here. Luckily there is an Agway not far from me. I can check there and on the internet. They are probably easy to find. |
RE: Zone confusion
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- Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
Fri, Mar 8, 13 at 8:33
| 8" of wet snow here yesterday, weighing down branches, but fortunately got blown off/melted after just a few hrs. Far more snow just to the south in the WV panhandle. |
RE: Zone confusion
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| I was amazed to find a weather center unit at WAL-Mart for approx. $100.00. I guess that is why lots of folks have them. I am not concerned with rainfall much. We get what I would imagine is normal rainfall or there would be a ruckus about it . So I will get it next payday and can keep track of my winter lows in my yard. |
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