As I suggested on your other post you need to treat the plant as a standard, i.e. you need to select one stem and remove all side shoots. Alternatively, you could cut the plants down as coppice and select straight new growths. It might also help to plant your 4 trees quite close together so they are reaching for the light above. In natural Blackthorn thickets the suckering shrubs grow close and grow fairly straight.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blackthorn sticks

Yes, thank you floral_UK, your post to my Blackthorn question inspired this post.

I was hoping to get clarifications and additions, or maybe even disagreement ( I have ZERO reason to doubt you and you sound like you know what you're talking about, so please no offense).

Like: Don't the vast majority of trees have but one stem? Blackthorns are one of the few that shoot up more than one, like, oh, a crepe myrtle? I get different definitions of coppice so I'm unclear as to what that even is. As for 'suckering shrub,' here is a typical link advising the uninitiated into the lore (meaning wth it means) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suckering_shrub

So you say a good idea might be to plant the 4 close together (how close? I've been advised by a Irish cane manufacturer that 4 feet is minimum). Should they be planted 4' apart without regard to other trees? I know that isn't the case but I'm just brining up another concern.

PLEASE do keep giving me access to your knowledge!!! I definitely need it. But please remember that I have never tried to grow a tree past 'plant it, baby it for a season, let nature take it's course.' I've been gardening, all kinds, for only 3 years - this being my 3rd. I've been planting trees much longer, especially after hurricane Gustav (all you non-south Louisianians here about is Katrina. Gustav and Isaac, though far more for me personally Gustav, clobbered other big cities here recently). Lost 12.5 trees direct, lost 2.5 trees flattened by fallers (all but the .5 fallers were 60-70' southern pine - BIG trees). We then decided to have the handful of survivors cut down. It is only by the grace of God our house or a neighbors house was not hit by the monsters. EVERY tree that fell was in range of an inhabited dwelling, some so close (mine included) that a hit would have been catastrophic. Only my neighbors outbuilding was clipped, barely. So yeah, off topic but did some tree planting then. Still am.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming!

Jeremy

Hi again, Jeremy. I have to tell you I have not actually planted Blackthorn myself because it is basically a wild plant in the British Isles and is extremely common almost everywhere. But I have seen thousands, mostly used as hedges, and I have them on my land. This is a scruffy shrub-like 'tree'. I'm not sure what plant to compare it with which you would be familiar with. But it is not half as tidy as Crape Myrtle. Ultimate height, if never cut, is not going to be more than about 15 - 20 feet. It is not going to grow like an oak or maple. It makes great hedges because of its ability to take a lot of cutting and abuse and to branch thickly. Also it suckers, so your hedge thickens up naturally. The thorns are vicious, so handle with care. If your Irish source says 4 feet, do as they say. But the plants are likely to sucker and make thickets in due course, unless you remove some stems. This picture gives you an idea of what happens to Blackthorn growing naturally. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackthorn_thicket,_Eglinton.JPG

I've not heard of cane manufacturers intentionally growing Blackthorn. I though they selected from wild or hedge plants. That is what is implied here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blackthorn

Just a thought.....you might, whilst waiting on these shrubs, grow something called a Jersey walking stick which can be grown in 18 months using a cabbage! Honestly, the chou-palm cabbage variety is renowned for producing long, long stems which produce the leaves in a cluster at the very top. They are easy to grow from seed. In the first season, the trunk needs to be fastened along the ground using wires, to create a natural hooked handle, while the following season, the stem will grow tall and straight. They can be harvested, dried and oiled. We have a couple which are over 20 years old (my children grew them). Google Jersey Cabbage - seeds are available from Chilterns (which ship to the US).
An amusing little growing endeavour (and the leaves can be eaten like any cabbages).

As for the blackthorn, it is best to grow them from seed so that you can start the training and debudding any side shoots whilst the dominant trunk is still young. On a small bare-root or potted tree, unless you have bought a maiden (first year) whip without feathering (side shoots), the side shoots may have already developed to a point where the apical dominance has been broken. However, they are quick and easy from seed although they do need stratifying. Once the sapling is about 18inches high, you can tie it in to a cane to ensure straight growth, removing any side shoots as they occur. Should take about 5 years to harvest for a reasonable length of walking stick.

lets link your two posts together.. see link ...

i am enjoying your thirst for knowledge ... that is why most of us are here in GW ... to share such

you said: Like: Don't the vast majority of trees have but one stem?

yes... it might be part of the definition of such ...

stepping way back ... your are confusing trees with shrubs.. that is one reason there are two different forums.. because the words mean different things ...

it only took me about 20 years to understand such ... that trees and shrubs are different.. not that words mean things... lol ..

BTW.. you can do a lot better than wikipedia as a link ... its a good place to start to find new terms to search out and learn ...

so just some thoughts to lead you on your quest for knowledge:

not all WOODY plants are trees ... [there are even woody perennials] ...

i like to put FLOWERING in front of the word shrub .... because in my mind ... for what that is worth.. most of the shrubs we notice, flower or berry [which requires a flower to make such] ... so when i think of shrubs i think of the common lilac ... forsythia .. olive... current .. etc ... they are grow in the same form ... and almost all sucker... to me ... its part of the definition of such ...

and all will EVENTUALLY .. develop canes or trunks big enough for your project ... though it might take 5 to 10 years for such.. partly because they are wasting a lot of time and energy.. suckering their brains out ....

soooo.. if you reduce suckering.. [good luck with that ... lol] ... the energy they produce can be forced into growing the product you wish ... hence all the suggestions about such ...

now.. trees on the other hand.. do not sucker.. or multiply from their roots [leaving aside a discussion on some weed trees that might do such] ... you can repeatedly mow down a small tree... and make it LOOK like a shrub .... but it is budding above ground .. so it is not technically suckering ... again.. PROBABLY part of the definition of a tree... rather than a shrub ...

and then.. on top of it all... conifers are trees... but not all trees are conifers .... which is then complicated by people calling such or both.. evergreen ... again we are back to common usage of non-technical words .... there are evergreen trees... evergreen shrubs.. evergreen perennials .. etc ... so when you call something an evergreen.... you cant get very far with a discussion ...

see.. when it all boils down.. its all wrapped up in the words used ... COMMON descriptions... rather than technical or scientific ..... so when you really want to learn.. in depth.. you have to start.. by finding precise definitions .. in this case botany ... rather than wiki ...

it is not uncommon for botanists to roll thru and start arguing about my way of trying to teach a newb ... so be it ... it helps us all learn ... but there comes some limit to how much botany.. my brain can hold... lol ...

good luck with your cane project ...

ken

ps: when planting time comes.. ask for help first ... not after you plant it ... its pretty simple ... and dont waste money on soil amendments or fertilizers ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Ooooh, Ken . 'Trees do not sucker....' Tell that to the owner of a poplar.

And I'm curious for some examples of woody perennials.

or our now defunct English elm - suckers if ever there were.....and yep, poplars for sure....also robinia, ailanthus.
Many trees can easily be grown as multi-stemmed specimens, most famously, birch trees, while many, many shrubs can also be grown with one woody stem . Is there such a thing as a woody perennial? Would we maybe call it a subshrub? Then there are palms.

One stem might be a part of a definition of a tree but would not be definitive on its own.

I have always been reluctant to get into the shrub/tree/bush debate as it is a bit reminiscent of the weeds/natives/invasives denominations. I find it best to be non-selectively vague.

caviler - I'm not sure if you have seen Blackthorn growing - you didn't say either way - so here are some pics I took yesterday of Blackthorn on the shores of the English Channel. Look at the habit, the thickety,suckering habit and the spines. This is what you will be dealing with.

This post was edited by floral_uk on Thu, Feb 20, 14 at 13:13

Another picture of Blackthorn

IMPORTANT!

I'm having a flare-up of a chronic disorder, so I won't be able to respond as I'd like to. Further, I've a monster of a surgery March 12.

PLEASE keep the info coming, though!

A new wrinkle. I've some 5' trees (a Dawn Redwood- Metasequoia glyptostroboides and a Gingko-Ginkgo biloba) that are not growing straight. How might I, the ultimate amateur, correct their growth? The Gingko is crooked pretty badly on it's main trunk. It grows fine until the last 1.5' where it sort of form a sickle shape out. Should I simply cut that top part off? The redwood is more like a crooked walking stick. Going this way and that. Also, it doesn't grow as fast as advertised though this is probably due to the fact that my yard is part of a prehistoric levee for a nearby bayou and so is almost all clay.

Thanks, and if I don't seem to care about your responses - see above. After 3/12 y'all won't hear from me for quite a while.

Thanks!
Jeremy

EDIT:
Thanks Floral,

No, I'd not seen one in Winter - only 'dressed' - with leaves. Quite a prickly proposition.

I can't thank you enough for your help. Seriously. If you believe in God, you're racking up the points! If not, you're a good person. Well, good person either way but you know what I meant.

Merci Beaucoup, Cher,
Jeremy

This post was edited by Caviler on Fri, Feb 21, 14 at 16:17

Thanks Floral,

No, I'd not seen one in Winter - only 'dressed' - with leaves. Quite a prickly proposition.

I can't thank you enough for your help. Seriously. If you believe in God, you're racking up the points! If not, you're a good person. Well, good person either way but you know what I meant.

Merci Beaucoup, Cher,
Jeremy