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| Hello, I am trying to decide on an ornamental (not sure if this is a right term) tree that grows no more than 20ft on a front corner of my house. Now, I'm struggling with the tree choice. I got the following recommendation for the spot. I personally want to have Acer pseudosieboldianum for having leaves even in the winter, or an Eastern redbud for flowers. Or more vaguely, I think yellow fall color is pretty. Which tree would go well year round in terms of color blend with knockout roses? Those roses will have flowers even in the fall. It is hard to visualize for me. Wanted to ask if anyone has a first-hand experience. Roses can go if it is hard to be matched. In sum, what would you recommend for the front corner of the house, if it is going to be only one tree in front of the house? The distance between the tree and the house is about 5-6 ft. If it goes well with red roses, it's a plus. If there's a better choice and it doesn't go well with red roses, I can move roses to other spots. It's zone 5B. Clay soil. North-east corner of the house. Drains relatively well and there's a sprinkler nearby. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Thu, Feb 7, 13 at 15:28
Follow-Up Postings:
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| "knockout roses They are very small now (1 ft) and planted about 1-2 ft apart from each other" Maybe we have exceptional soil and growing conditions but knockout roses planted that close together will be fighting each other by the second season. We have about 6 in the a planter in front of the house. In the summer that is one mass of flowers across the length of the planter, The branches of the individual plants are completely intertwined. We are cutting them back by 60% late in the fall.
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| Yes you're exactly right. My neighbor's roses were planted about 4 ft apart a year ago, and there's hardly any gap. We did it wrong. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 10:39
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- Posted by toronado3800 Z6 St. Louis (My Page) on Thu, Feb 7, 13 at 20:56
| Acer palmatum comes in every shape and color imaginable up to about 30 ft in height. The more wildly colored ones may or may not benefit from being in much shade. The eastern end of the north side of my house is very shady. The northern end of the east corner could have sun half the day. Which does your spot sound more like? Generally I would say use Japanese maple as a fall back if nothing else inspires ya since JM is sooooo widely planted. |
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| Acer pseudosieboldianum is not evergreen. Speaking of evergreen, conifers and broadleaved evergreens are good as backgrounds for roses. |
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| Acer pseudosieboldianum is not evergreen It does tend to hold its leaves well into winter around here. I think thats what the OP was getting at. Make sure its not grafted to Acer palmatum but seed grown if you go with this one in 5b. A few have already eluded to this but you need a 5-6'spacing for knockout roses. Anything closer and they'll be riddle with multiple leaf diseases. They grow very fast. No doubt will they hit 4' in 3 years. Are you looking for a more informal or formal plant? Generally speaking I'd get a larger leaf tree with light green foliage to contrast with the somewhat finer very dark green foliage (almost purple hue) of the roses. |
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| Thanks for replies. @toronado3800 : The house is facing east, so it is the northern end of east side. Gets sunny in the morning. @bboy : I thought about evergreen, too. I was having difficulty finding one that doesn't get too big. I like the look of the Colorado blue spruce, but heard it gets quite large. I'm personally not crazy about arbovitae. If I can find a "small" evergreen, I can add it as a 2nd tree behind roses. As the tree will be in front of the porch and privacy is not much concern, I thought a top-heavy tree would be better. But you are spot on how they all go well with roses. I was wondering whether "asian" maples go well with knockout roses. They feel different. Maybe difference is good. @whaas: Yes, that is what I was referring to. I read it either here or somewhere from a google search. I think oaks with brown leaves in the winter are very pretty, and imagined a similar look. I was going to order one from ForestFarm and they sell a seed grown, I believe? I will have to transplant all the roses, then. They are planted as in the following diagram. I was thinking getting rid of the red one and planting a tree on the green spot. But there are other small shrubs (blue spots), so it doesn't seem that any of the roses has enough space to grow. Regarding "informal vs formal".. I don't have a concrete idea on how they look different. I'll take note of the green foliage vs dark green foliage. I'm also curious which fall color will go well with the red roses. They say it's red but from what I've seen, the color has some hot pink shade in it. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 2:43
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 12:00
| The distance between the tree and the house is about 5-6 ft. ==>>> come on peeps.. NO TREE GOES 5 TO 6 FEET FROM THE HOUSE ... period!!! i had a redbud.. that was 20 feet wide ... === i am not aware that sweet bay magnolia is z5 hardy... but i could be wrong ... you need to rethink this bed ... if you insist on a tree.. of any kind.. at the corner of the house.. i would suggest no closer than 10 to 15 feet ... NEVER FORGET ... you need work space of at least 3 feet clearance ... at the foundation.. for siding cleaning.. windows .. hanging xmas lights.. gutter cleaning.. etc ... and finally .. no tree ever magically stops growing at any given height ... and to think of it.. a tree that grows to 20 feet as you ask.. will most likely be 20 feet wide ... even a weeping mulberry type of plant.. will get to 10 feet wide ... over the years ... see your problem??? if you could post us a pic of the spot.. we could sure go further in helping you ... ken ps: the roses can easily be moved early this spring.. they wont even know such ... and many roses.. perform best in full sun.. not under the shade of a tree.. up against a house ... |
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| Thanks! I took note of everything you said. I will extend the bed or plant a tree out of the bed. I'll move those roses first thing in the spring. About whether I want a tree....I used to have one tree on the red spot, but took it out as I wanted a tree-less front yard. Then I looked around the neighborhood and all other houses have a tree on that spot. I mean the non-garage side front corners, not exactly in that distance from houses. Some are as close, some are not. Tree choices include SB magnolia (so it seems to be planted here), JM, serviceberry, crabapple, weeping cherry, aborvitae, and I saw a very tall tree with multiple white trunks. A tree on that spot almost feels like a norm. Started to have a second thought. Maybe I'll regret not having any tree after several years? I'll post pictures later. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 15:42
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| All you have to do is plant a dwarf Colorado spruce. |
Here is a link that might be useful: DWARF COLORADO SPRUCES
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| I'd like to reinforce some of what Ken said. From what I've seen, it's very common for people to plant small (sometimes large) trees or shrubs too close to a house. Holly 'bushes' about 6 feet tall maybe 3 feet from the wall are examples. What looked cute as a little green ball grown into an awkward looking green mass growing against the house (or hedged off it). Somebody planted what I believe is a butterfly bush beside our house before we bought it, and it's too close. And unless the angle of sunlight is such that the house doesn't shade the tree much at all, it's likely the tree will lean away from the house seeking sunlight, which can look awkward. Richard. |
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| I'm guilty for missing that (5-6' away from house) detail. I have to say I disagree that "no" tree can be planted that close. Might take a tree like Fagus sylvatica Rohan Obelisk 30-40 years before it even thinks about touching the house in zone 5b. There are plenty trees to fit the space whether it be 5,10,15 or 30' on center for those with many acres. I'm surely in the group that has planted a plant too close to the house though. Haven't we all though? |
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| Turns out my zone is 6a (ohio). The zone 5b I found was from 1990 map. By the way, I came to like this tree while searching pictures: |
This post was edited by ttonk on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 3:28
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 7:33
| I have to say I disagree that "no" tree can be planted that close. ==>>> by her list.. i was thinking shopping at bigboxstore .. and i doubt she will find the very unique specimen she needs at such ... it can be done.. but its not going to be easy to find the particular plant she needs ... there are common .. cheap plants to fill in the rest .. but even cheapskate old me.. would pay the money to find the proper thing .. this corner could be the focal point of the whole front of the house... make a statement.. find the budget ... the rest of the stuff can be more common ... ken |
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| How wacky my guestimates were! I measured the distance between roses and the overall planting bed. Here's the measurement. One square = 1'  This is the spot in question.
The view from south. Green Velvet boxwoods are 2 ft. from the foundation. Should I move them further out? |
This post was edited by ttonk on Sun, Feb 10, 13 at 1:25
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| So you have 10' from the house? Yellowwood sure is a nice tree but much too large for that location and not a good choice near structures due to its tendency to develop weak crotch angles. Typically my rule is that I need to be able to walk between the house/foundation. The plant in question can be sheared and is shade tolerant but I'd be included to move them out 2'. I'd also be tempted to plant those roses 5' from each other. Perhaps you should transplant them elsewhere and get a ground cover rose for that location. Knockout is an upright. The drift series is from the same hybridizer if I'm not mistaken. |
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| Thanks! A yellowtree is off the list then. Yes. If I plant one at the edge of the bed, it will be 10' from the house. No need to have roses on that spot, but good to know about the drift series. My initial thought was replacing a tree with tall knockout roses, but if there comes a tree, those roses can just go to other spots. But now I think of it, 10' deep empty planting bed will be strange. And thank you bboy and Richard for all the great suggestions! |
This post was edited by ttonk on Sun, Feb 10, 13 at 15:13
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| @whaas I realized why you asked. Apparently, I cannot count the # of squares. :) The one you saw had 11 squares for the 10' distance and that distorted the whole planting bed a bit. I replace the picture with a correct one. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 8:43
| well.. you mastered posting pix.. how about you step to the middle of the street.. and give us a pic of the whole front yard ... is there any reason.. a tree .. HAS TO BE 'IN' THE BED??? i think that is your immediate problem.. filling the bed becomes very easy.. once you PROPERLY SITE the tree in the lawn ... the bed is the box you have placed yourself in ... lets step out of it for a bit.. if we end up back in the box.. so be it.. boxes are fun if you channel your inner child .... i see the neighbor has planted a birch clump ... you can sit on your porch for the next decade.. and quietly mock them.. as all their problems begin.. do not make the same mistake ... [though it appears that house might be set further back ...] ken |
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| Hi Ken, Hummm..no reason. Except that I'd rather have a tree at the corner, not in the middle of the lawn. Re: the neighbor's tree. The house is indeed set further back and the distance to the tree is about 10ft. This is the front yard shot. There's a slight downhill along the bed toward the front and also toward the right, but the rest of the yard is almost flat. **Update: Taken literally from the middle of the street. Cars had to wait. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 18:01
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| 2 basic points: You will need something bigger-growing, in a bigger bed than you have now to balance the size of the house. The placement and quantity of the roses and box should be reversed, with a larger grouping of roses at the back of the centermost, narrower part of the bed and smaller groupings of box near the ends. Preferably herbaceous plants (annuals, bulbs, perennials) would be planted between the roses and the lawn. You could also face them down with low evergreen shrubs or subshrubs for easier upkeep and an evergreen element in that part of the bed. But the taller, more important evergreen shrubs should be near the ends. More interest and flow would be gotten by using more than one kind. The formal, even, geometric spacing of the uniform box dots conflicts with the informal bed outline you have established. With informal planting you want to plant evergeen shrubs in interlocking drifts of the same kind within each drift, same as is done with herbaceous plants in such schemes. |
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| Thanks!! Let me see if I understood this correctly. Place roses, other flowers, small evergreen shrubs on the center, but not in a straight row. Then something larger (including those boxwoods) should be on the right. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Feb 12, 13 at 8:02
| man what a deary pic.. looks like yesterday in MI .. but for the lack of 40 mph winds.. lol ... looks like a crop circle.. straight out the front door in the lawn.. did you already get rid of a tree??? in landscape architecture talk.. you need some verticals ... and your beds are too thin in depth.. for the shear mass of height of the house .... i would definitely.. figure out how to grown vines.. like clematis.. up your porch columns ... [perhaps some fast annual vines for this year .. while the clematis get established] i would probably get rid of the stakes on that tree ... i would add a bed on the street side of the walkway to the door ... and i would get rid of all the tiny punctuation marks along the foundation .. or at least get a couple bigger plants ... just to break the monotony .... too much uniformity for my eye .... then i would paint the house lime green.. with big pink dots.. and move away in the night .. lol ... OK.. i am out of ideas.. lets see if these peeps can run with it... you might also want to try the peeps in the landscape forum.. i hear they are pretty good.. though i have never visited ... ken ps: you know.. you could have crossed the street.. and stood on the sidewalk opposite.. rather than risk road rage ... |
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| Among all the great suggestions, I like the pink dots the best. Only if the HOA allows it. dang. Yes, there was a red maple on that spot. Almost in a row with the street tree maple from which by the way I cannot remove the stake because it doesn't belong to me..But if it dies, I pay for it. Sounds fair. I have been tossing around the idea of adding a bed in front of the steps and moving roses to that spot. Seems very common here. Those boxwoods do look like punctuation marks. haha. Could I plant them in a more informal way and augment with flowers in between? Or if I can pick a tree sooner or later, can I make a circle of boxwoods underneath? |
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| Regarding the tree, I'm looking for these: One straight trunk. No multi-trunks, no twisted trunk. Round canopy (I have AB in my backyard and do not like the shape...) Light-green color leaves. No need to flower but don't mind. No fruits. Nice fall color-orange to yellow. Small to mid-sized ornamental. ... and I cannot find the tree..... **well, multi-trunk should be fine. That one's too restrictive. *** After looking at whaas' redbud, eastern redbud is on the list again. Didn't know it can be a single-trunk. **** I thought about ken's comment whether the tree should be in the bed. Does it mean I should consider a non-ornamental large tree further out near the sidewalk? Height-wise, that would achieve the same goal as a small tree near the house does? By "goal", I mean having some green scenery at the east-north corner of the house, and also looking out some green leaves from the porch and from inside. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 11:47
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| The green is complimentary to the existing lines. The blue is a more flowing curve but somewhat fights the existing lines. You definitely don't have the depth to bring a tree outside the bed. I suggest a larger growing oval shape tree off to the left side and then a small rounded tree to the right side. Something as simple as a Hydrangea paniculata treeform. A couple tips: |
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| Trees are the skeletons of your garden's body. Tailoring your trees to your roses and shrubs is like putting the carts before the horses. Get the tree issue right and everything else falls into place more easily. Just because everyone else has the same set-up with their mulched planting zones, doesn't mean you are obliged to follow suit. You have an attractive home and your plantings could really make it pop but you also have an issue in that it's a big house on a small lot. Proportion is an issue in landscaping. A military formation of boxwood against a porch with a rail will do nothing to compliment it, it just repeats the angle of the rails and if you intend to really use the porch, consider how interesting an impression it will create. If you're using a porch wouldn't it just as important what your view from that angle would be like? You must also work within the constraints of an HOA, so I don't know if they can call your shots for tree planting, either. You're obviously willing to make the effort to do a good design and you have a blank slate. Design element is not in the scope of one thread and my suggestion would be to look at magazines or sites (done by professionals) with home similar to your's and find one you think particularly pleasing. You certainly don't have to match it plant for plant......but you can see how they use different heights and textures and what a formal planting looks like to an informal one. After you do that, then you start considering what is an appropriate one to fill that need. There isn't a major hurry to get it all done at once because you will have to live with it after it's installed and often it takes a few years before it hits you it's not suitable and by then it's expensive and difficult to remedy. |
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| Structure of house calls for informal planting. |
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| Thank you both!! You guys are so right about many things. I didn't even realize that the house looks too big, but now I realize it does. I need trees.. I think I understood most of what you said, but can't say I did 100%. For example, I vaguely understand this. I mean I know the literal meaning, but cannot visualize. "Intermix groupings in drifts, they need to interconnect. My second question for Whaas is about two trees you mentioned. Given the sizes of circles you drew, did you mean to recommend a larger growing oval shape tree off to the RIGHT side and then a small rounded tree to the LEFT? Now, see if this tentative plan I drew this morning reflects all the comments. There are no additional plants yet. New plan. The current one is to scale and this new one is approx. calliope mentioned that the view from porch is important. I vaguely had a similar thought. This is the view from the porch. |
This post was edited by ttonk on Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 12:27
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| You are very gracious for taking comments in the spirit they were meant...I reread my post and saw many statments I made one might be defensive about. This is a zone where winters could be severe and summers also severe in the opposite direction. I don't really know because there are a lot of zone 5bs. Boxwood can be touchy in those situations and really not live up to their potential. They can make nice hedging, but is that really what you want? They can also get rather large unless kept trimmed back eating up your porch presentation. Is that the look you want? If you do so, it will present a stark and rigid repeat of the straight line of your porch rail and that's why bboy recommends you go to a more soft, informal setting. I helped my son add plantings to the bed in front of his porch, which they use. It is a sensory joy to sit on the porch now and would not have been if we installed boxwood. Your mulch bed is not a formal design shape. Formal is all about geometry and repetition, and control. It has its place, but it does not play well mixing it with informal design elements. I would want the bed in front of my porch to have a blooming element, preferably a mixed blooming element so I 'd have interest in more than one season, with careful consideration of making it look good from all angles. You have essentially turned your plantings into foundation plantings and you'll hide some of your best focal aspects of your house design. Pardon me my prejudices, I studied landscape design, even if I did end up on the growing end of the industry, but I'm sensing a serious gardener in your post and I'd like to see you have maximum return for your efforts. |
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| I'd roll with Calliope's suggestion or more immediately post the images you just put in there and get some suggestions from the Design forum. I can only offer tips and suggestions on design. I'm stronger, as most of the other folks on this forum, with plant suggestions. It will be the opposite on the design forum. Generally speaking... Sorry mixed up the location. But yes larger vertical accent on the right. As for the intermixing this is just a simple example. Top example would be intermixing. The bottom is simply lining them up. |
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| @bboy and calliope: I looked up informal and formal design pictures. I agree that informal design will work better with my house, although I confess there's something about formal design I'm attracted to. Maybe a brick house, or a stucco house, or more estate-like house with larger front yard would be better background for the formal design. So I'll keep my yard to be an informal garden. calliope. no. your comment didn't have anything like that. I really appreciate all the comments. :-) @whaas. I think I get it now. I'm playing with those red and blue dots mixing all up. haha. I'll post this on the landscape design forum, too. |
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| I've seen several pictures from Houzz and I think I like a relatively informal formal designs. Or relatively formal informal designs. Hope I'm making any sense. These are pictures I like and dislike, for example. LIKE the following pictures:        Traditional Landscape design by San Francisco Landscape Architect Keith Willig Landscape Services, Inc.  Eclectic Landscape design by San Francisco Landscape Architect Randy Thueme Design Inc. - Landscape Architecture  Traditional Landscape design by Chicago Landscape Architect Hursthouse Landscape Architects and Contractors   DISLIKE the following pictures:       Contemporary Landscape design by San Francisco Landscape Architect Shades Of Green Landscape Architecture   |
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| You've already established an informal design with the flowing bed outline. That's why the straight line of evenly spaced box does not work, it conflicts with the shape of the bed. And does not go with the asymmetric pattern of the house facade. If the house was geometrically symmetric then you would do a similar pattern with plants and pavers etc. in front of it. In such instances repeating or approaching the front of the building on the ground with plants, gravel and other "earth" materials provides a transition area between the highly stylized appearance of the house and the less orderly world beyond. Most people don't have uniform house facades, making formal garden elements incongruent. Perhaps the most common mistake is matching pairs at the front door. |
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| Yup. Definitely not going with symmetry. After looking at many pictures, this is what I realized. I think I like typical-looking, round shape plants. What a preschooler would draw as shapes of trees and flowers. Not sure if I particularly like the formal design itself, but it seems that these plants I like are used more often in the formal design. Along the same line; I like wavy planting beds and asymmetry and all, but I dislike some of the informal-looking plants. Maybe I got all the concepts confused here. Anyway, end of deep thought.. |
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| No it makes to me. I prefer formal looking specimens but informal groupings and bed designs. |
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| If a plant is too rigid then it doesn't fit with informal planting layouts, as they produce an appearance of flowing movement and stiff plants are static-looking, like posts in a stream. |
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| I hear you, bboy. I'm pulling out my hairs trying to fit boxwood into the wavy line. The only thing I can think of with boxwood is lining them up to some degree like they are now. Tried Whaas' intermixing example and they don't work well with boxwood..sigh.. |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 17:50
| Google 'cloud hedges'. I'd like to do that with my yews, but first have to figure out how to keep the deer away. |
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| @mad_gallica: Oh they are very interesting. I'm not confident I can pull it off. haha. I finally moved the roses to the front of the entrance, 5 ft away from each other. I did not expand the bed all the way to the driveway. Just made a small one in front of the entrance step. So the planting bed on the right side is fairly empty now. NEED A TREE!! |
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