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attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Posted by j0nd03 7b AR (My Page) on
Fri, Mar 1, 13 at 10:22

I tried to send you an email instead of posting this on the tree forum but your email address is unavailable in your profile.

Anyways, I found a Missouri seed source for q. virginiana. At least the source claims the seed were collected in MO. You might want to call the source and verify before ordering ;) I can't help but think the webmaster keyed in MO instead of MS and the seed are actually from Mississippi.

They would surely be worth trying if someone has a mature specimen in Missouri producing acorns.

John

Edit: I went ahead and called them since I had the time this morning and Greg Sheffield is supposed to call me back with info :)

Edit 2: They called me back and said the seed collector lives in AR and is very reliable and accurate with his seed source info and mother tree ID (another possibility would be the collector collected from a fusiformis instead of virginiana). They offered to contact the seed collector and will try to verify the info, then call me on Monday. The person I spoke with did mention he was fairly confident the source info was accurate and seed were collected in Missouri from street trees (which raises my suspicion further they may not be q. virginiana).

We'll see!

You may not even want to try virginiana again for all I know!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Sheffield's q. viginiana

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Mar 1, 13 at 11:30


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Thanks JOnd03, I will check it out. I have some that are doing fine and appear to be Q. Virginiana X Q. Fusiformis and backcrossed with Q. Virginiana. They grew really well last season (better than my Q.Fusiformis) and are still holding their foliage, although it's starting to turn brown here and there. I got them from Mossy oak natives online nursery. One is ' Late drop' live oak and the seed may have come from Texas. I have another in a pot close to the house, that was labeled Q. Virginiana. I was going to take it in for the coldest temps, but it kept holding leaves so I never took it in. It was right next to the house on the south/ west side, but this is a very small tree, skinnier than a pencil and in a pot, so I will put it in the ground. I would be shocked if the seed source is Missouri and it's a Q. V. but I will check it out. I have so many live oaks now, some (most) are Q. Fusiformis, which eventually are impressive in old age, but I like the faster growth of Q. V. I will still check out your link.Thanks for thinking of me with the source.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Np, I know you had several experiments going and this is one tree you are very interested in :)

I am curious about this source, myself. Obviously, if they are live oak, they are not native to MO, I don't want anyone thinking I believe that! OTOH, it would be very interesting if they have found some to be hardy that far north.

Mine is still green as grass as well and sounds like you are finally having some success with this species. Good luck!

John

ps - I will still update this topic when I get the call back on Monday for completeness sake.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I have read the Sheffields page for Live oak and it says hardiness zone 8. Lots of people in zone 7 can grow them. They seem to have to be hybrids of Q. Fusiformis to make it in zone 6 though. The 2 I got last spring from Mossy oak nativeslook different from those that I received from my other live oak orders. The one in the ground HAS to be part Q. Virginiana, it is more like the Q.V. by growing almost 2 feet the same season I planted it, my other transplanted oaks (not from seed) just sit there for the first year or may grow 2 inches the first year.. Plus the online discription pretty much says it is likely a hybrid of the 2, but they can't say it definitely is. They collect from the wild. If you get a call Monday and have time or whenever you have time post a reply of what the seed collector said. If they are Q. Fusiformis with no Q. V. I have them coming out of my ears. I may give one away to a friend who just bought her own house.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Your best bet will be trying to find some from VA or NC, that's about it's northernmost limit.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Alabamatreehugger, I have tried 2 from Virginia and they died. That was last year. They were extra skinny, like a Linguini noodle and about the same in length. I am happy about the one in my back yard. It could still die, but the way it has been green so long and is still holding the leaves that are just starting to get brown now, I will be shocked if it dies. They usually defoliate in the spring from what I've heard, so they look like they will drop them pretty soon. I feel good about the one that was labeled ' Late drop' Q. V.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

All for naught... Sheffield's just called me back. The seed was collected in AR and the seed order page has been corrected.

Sounds like you have your hands full anyways =)

John


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I am growing live oaks Fusiformis variety and hybrid Fusiformis/Virginiana from the Austin Texas area in SW Missouri, there are a few remote areas of live oak (fusiformis) mixed with Ashe Juniper in extreme SW Missouri, along the Arkansas & Oklahoma borders. This Missouri location is only about 4.5 hours from the Texas border so it has mild winters, hot summers. Missouri is a tall state it's northern span borders Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois and Kansas, it's southern border Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Oklahoma. It's northern areas are zone 5 and southernmost zones 6b, 7a to 7b. The southernmost is Subtropical Humid Transitional as shown by the map (which I believe is better representation than USDA), area 8 which extreme southeast Pennsylvania is also in. It has a huge transition of zones, so it's not really that cold. In the far southern areas, Southern Magnolia, (Ashe Juniper -otherwise only found in Texas), Bald Cypress, Osage, Redbud, Crape Myrtle, etc. grow easily. My live oak do not defoliate in the winter, they defoliate in the Spring and they are suppose to and bring on new leaves. Pure Quercus Virginiana will survive here for some years, but we get cold blasts every 10 years that drop us to at least -5 below zero, at that point those trees get weakened or even die. Dallas had record breaking cold week about 10 years ago and their Virginiana died in mass, only the hybrid versions and the Fusiformis survived unscathed. My Fusiformis are about 5ft tall, my hybrids are about a foot. The wild ones I have seen are few but over 30 feet mixed in with some Ashe Juniper about 2 miles from the Arkansas border on Tablerock lake in Taney County. I think the biggest difference is that our cold snaps only last a day or so, then rebound quickly. Seems like Pennsylvania, even though it has some 6b areascwhen they do get cold snaps they tend to last longer, and your hot periods don't seem to get many days over 100 degrees so your heat zone may be slightly less. Still if you are in zone 6b, your Fusiformis should be fine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Climatic map


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I am growing live oaks Fusiformis variety and hybrid Fusiformis/Virginiana from the Austin Texas area in SW Missouri, there are a few remote areas of live oak (fusiformis) mixed with Ashe Juniper in extreme SW Missouri, along the Arkansas & Oklahoma borders. This Missouri location is only about 4.5 hours from the Texas border so it has mild winters, hot summers. Missouri is a tall state it's northern span borders Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois and Kansas, it's southern border Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Oklahoma. It's northern areas are zone 5 and southernmost zones 6b, 7a to 7b. The southernmost is Subtropical Humid Transitional as shown by the map (which I believe is better representation than USDA), area 8 which extreme southeast Pennsylvania is also in. It has a huge transition of zones, so it's not really that cold. In the far southern areas, Southern Magnolia, (Ashe Juniper -otherwise only found in Texas), Bald Cypress, Osage, Redbud, Crape Myrtle, etc. grow easily. My live oak do not defoliate in the winter, they defoliate in the Spring and they are suppose to and bring on new leaves. Pure Quercus Virginiana will survive here for some years, but we get cold blasts every 10 years that drop us to at least -5 below zero, at that point those trees get weakened or even die. Dallas had record breaking cold week about 10 years ago and their Virginiana died in mass, only the hybrid versions and the Fusiformis survived unscathed. My Fusiformis are about 5ft tall, my hybrids are about a foot. The wild ones I have seen are few but over 30 feet mixed in with some Ashe Juniper about 2 miles from the Arkansas border on Tablerock lake in Taney County. I think the biggest difference is that our cold snaps only last a day or so, then rebound quickly. Seems like Pennsylvania, even though it has some 6b areascwhen they do get cold snaps they tend to last longer, and your hot periods don't seem to get many days over 100 degrees so your heat zone may be slightly less. Still if you are in zone 6b, your Fusiformis should be fine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Climatic map


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

The climatic map you posted has me in zone 7. I would have agreed with it before a couple folks showed me a bit of info stating that I had below 0 a bunch of times, although it was only a few degrees sometimes. Anyways, I'm zone 6. I have a q. Fusiformis/Q.Virginiana cross, I believe, because of more vigorous growth, compared to my Fusiformis favoring live oaks. I am pretty sure I have hybrids of Virginiana and Fusiformis. I have had too many failures of Q. Virginiana (pure) to believe otherwise. If you want to try a possibly larger live oak than Q. Fusiformis, Mossy oak natives has Live oak "late drop". It may get larger and grow faster than Q. Fusiformis. I stress the word "May". With hybrids, I'm sure you know, you don't know what you'll get for sure. I have Compton's oak also. It is a hybrid from Mossy oak natives. It is Overcup oak and Live oak hybrid.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Yep the map I sent you is different than just a hardiness zones. It uses lots more criteria basically everything from heat zones to moisture to daylight to elevation, it was developed for the golf course grass industry, our zone allows for a couple species of Bermuda grass believe it or not.

Some new baby live oak hybrids I am growing and just below it a bunch of Fusiformis.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I posted this in a related thread, but in case Joeinmo missed the other, I think my taller more vigorous L.O. cross may leaf out good this spring, I see tiny pink buds getting bigger. After hearing one of your Q. Fusiformis is only 1 ft tall, I realize my 1 ft tall Q. F. may be growing as fast as it's ever going to, sigh. I have confidence some of the many L.O. I have will live, I just hope they all don't grow 6-12 inches a year. I guess if they do, if I live another 15 years they will be 7 1/2 to 15 ft tall.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Hello forum members:

I just found this thread a few minutes ago, and have a great interest in the topic. I live in zone NYC/7b and always wondered if Quercus virginiana would be able to survive in my climate. I grow figs, unprotected, in large, 18-gallon containers, and wondered if Live Oak can be grown, also.

Very interesting to read about the northernmost ranges where this oak will grow. Where I live, the winter temps rarely go into the teens and generally the days are between the high 20s to high 30s, nights about 10 degrees cooler, from mid-Dec.. thru March. Jan.-Feb are the coldest months and nights can plunge into the teens on occasion. I live right off the Long Island Sound and the air blowing over the warmer waters of the Atlantic, and the Sound moderate the local temperatures. In reality, my climate zone is really zone 8-9, and only goes into the zone 7b range when we get a cold spell.

So, I would be interested in trying to grow acorns coming off of some northern-growing "Live Oaks". Any news with the Sheffield's Seed supply? By the way "D. R. Bates Gallons and Liners" (Florida).....sells Q. virginiana seedlings for 56 cents each.

Questions:

There seems to be a great deal of variation regarding the leaf characteristics of Q. Virginiana. I grew some seedlings from acorns (Schumacher Seeds), and the new leaves looked like Holly leaves, complete with wavy, prickly, margins, and looked nothing like the typical, flat, leathery, "olive leaves" with entire margins, that are seen in most of the Live Oaks photos.

Is this typical? I want the flat, typical oval leaves with entire margins. Will all seedlings start off with these Holly-like leaves? How long will it take to get oval leaves? I have read that Q. virginiana has a long adolescent period?

As a bonsai subject, will the leaves reduce with bonsai training? Will trunks thicken quickly? (I want to braid a number of long-stemmed seedlings, and twist them into a single, thicker, main stem. I will grow these trees in a very large, training container, until all the braided stems fuse into one wider, and much fatter trunk. Top branches will also be trained while trunks are fusing). Note: These trees will be protected in a cool shed over the winters.

Any comments, and new information will be greatly appreciated.


Frank


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Hey Bronxfigs, all I can say is that all the regular Quercus Virginiana (pure) haven't made it in my zone 6 Pa yard. I pestered someone I didn't know in Virginia to send me a Q. Virginiana seedling from a champion tree, or near their champion tree, actually 2 seedlings, not one. They very nicely did so for a few bucks, the trees died. I purchased 2 Live oak "late drop" from Mossy oak natives nursery, online. I did not have much faith in them surviving, they were listed as zone 7 hardy, just like the regular Live oaks on their site. I planted the first 2 in spring 2012. They grew from spring 2012 to overwinter of 2012 to spring 2013 and now to fall 2013. Hopefully overwintering to spring 2014, if all is good with it. My (pure) Q. Fusiformis, 3 all-together are alive but have all died down to the ground. The First one died down 2 times in it's 3 years in my yard. The other 2 died down the first spring after transplant to my yard. I thought the Q. Fusiformis would be my favorite, with it's toughness etc. But the "late drop" live oak have been tough and faster growing than the Q. Fusiformis. So that is why I have mentioned it so many posts, it's like a miracle to someone in zone 6 wanting a live oak tree. It grows fast, is hardy to at least a few degrees below zero F, and has the leaves of regular live oak and has the form of live oak. As far as leaf shape, my small "late drop" Live oaks have the Holly leaf shape on most of the leaves, but someone, maybe Joeinmo, mentioned that as the tree gets bigger the bottom leaves are usually rounder, but the top leaves have lobes, I guess once your tree gets larger, you won't see the top leaves as well anyway.On another note, Joeinmo is growing live oak in Missourri also. I have since planted 4 (or More) 'late drop" live oaks.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I can't remember if Joein mo, has pure Q. V. or if he has hybrids of Q.v and Q.F. I should have added that in zone 5 or more you can grow Compton's oak, a hybrid between Live oak Q. V. and Q. Lyrata ( Overcup oak). I have 3 in my yard. The one 50 ft away from our brick house(maybe warmer) was green ALL last winter. I just recently got to see a larger image of it's branch formation in a post a few days ago, on this forum, and was happy to see that the branches do look sort of like a live oak as far as them going out horizontally stretching out and being so fantastically formed and beautiful.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Bronxfigs,

You stated that your highs in the winter are 30's-20's and lows in teens, it's seems a bit cold for Quercus Virginiana, I don't think they will make that, even Quercus Fusiformis that may be a bit on the cold side. But more Important is your heat index. These trees are use to hot summers, days in the 90's and 100's, they need heat, the Northeast just does have this enough days of the year.

Our winter temps in SW Missouri are normally in the low 50's-high 40's and low temps are low 30's upper 20's with a teen here and there. However the very next day we can be 70 or a few days in a row in the 60's then back to the 40's. Are winter is Jan thru mid Feb.

I would try Paoky's hybrid late drop Oak, not sure the hybrid makeup maybe Poaky can give you the info.

When trees are young you will see the Holly-like leaves as the tree grows older you will see fewer of those type leaves, and usually on young trees the bottom leaves will round off and top leaves will be holly-like.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I have posted about the Live oak "late drop" ALOT. But here goes again. Go to the Mossy oak natives nursery website. They have different plants to click on to see. I think it is under special varieties of oaks, if not you will find it eventually. They have some hybrids, which is where you can find a Compton's oak, Quercus Virginia X Quercus Lyrata, (live oak X Overcup oak) amoung other hybrids. They have the regular Live oak Quercus Virginiana, and Live oak "late drop" and I think it is not labeled as anything other than Quercus Virginiana, but is labeled as Late drop live oak. It is said to be zone 7 hardy, just like the plain live oak. Anyway, it has acorns that ripen and bear later in the season than the plain live oak, and is listed as a possible cross or back-cross of reg live oak. The trees are cheap (under $10.00 for all I have ordered) I think they are less than $5.00 a tree for all but special varieties (like Compton's which is about $9.00 a tree), but you have to order $20.00 or slightly more as a minimum order. My last order was 4 of the Late drop live oak, plus shipping, approx., $30.00. They have wild grasses and Wild Magnolia Grandifolia, the evergreen one. Just about any oak you want, etc. I have never received a plant that was in bad shape, they have tree shelters also, but I wish they were cheaper, I never bought them. The trees are grown in a special pot and when they send them the "admittedly small" trees (about 2-3 ft tall whips) are air pruned and sent to you and they are about 3 ft tall, but you have no worry about the roots, when planting. Just plant, and the roots are not kinked or circled. They may not be a great mass of roots, but the tree is only about 3 ft tall, and the roots are free to grow as they should. I promote them so eagerly because I have received trees before and had trouble with some from Arbour day and Springhill nursery and got oaks with no roots, and looked like the buds were dead, and sure enough the buds never plumped up and made a live tree. I have ordered and received trees in July and August ( in Pa) and planted them as soon as I got them, and had no losses, with watering once a week.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I have never bought acorns from any of the white oak group because they don't store. They germinate within a couple of days after falling from the tree as in the bottom left of this pic.
Here's an idea, consult the champion tree list for your state. These are often on campuses, cemeteries or parks. Seed can be collected there.
If you're sowing seed in pots, they will soon sprout for Live Oak. The pots should not be allowed to freeze during winter.
 photo 11-17-13001-1.jpg


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Poaky,

Here is a live oak - Fusiformis that I have given to a friend, I had grown it from acorn and it's not yet a year old.

Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Joe I replied in another post, but I'll repeat. I never saw this tree before from your posts. I know sometimes I word things like YODA, sorry. It seems as though we have similar genetics with our live oaks. The Mossy oaks site mentions for Texans to be interested in the late drop, I'm guessing late acorn drop is favorable in Texas? Or some reason, Texans may like to try the late drop. Sam Md, I have sown Quercus Alba from local seeds, and my Chestnut oak is making babies under the mama tree. I haven't got any Q. Virginiana seeding yet, I am actually just now having success growing seedlings! I look forward to the day that I don't know what to do with all my Live oak "late drop" acorns. The other white oak family oaks that I would want to try, I already have. The live oak was the only one I doggedly searched for until I had overwintering success, although only over 1 winter so far.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Poaky,

Go 11 posts above this one and you will see the seedlings in a green rectangle container where this potted tree came from about a year ago. :-)


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Wow Joe, what a difference 5 or 6 months made! I looked at that above pic and didn't think they were the same batch. I am going to start another thread/ post on the live oaks.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Poaky,

Yep good batch of acorns, I picked the biggest acorns off the trees, I call them super acorns and out of every 100 acorns I saw on the trees, there was 1 super acorn about twice the size, so those are the ones I picked and grew.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Bronxfigs, why not give the Live Oak a try--as long as you have the space (it IS a big tree after all). I had one alive for a few seasons until it got crushed by Hurricane Sandy debris. They are really not expensive and grow quite fast. I got another specimen in a container and will plant it in the Spring. Heat zone should not be a problem in NYC Metro, if recent years are any guide especially.
P.S., I also have to worry about deer doing them in until they get big enough.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I just saw that Sheffield's just got some Q. fusiformis seed (Louisiana source) this week.

Too bad the wife has said "no more trees" for the year.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I am not sure if I should get any or not. I have checked on my Q. Virginiana babies today. I am thinking 2 of the newly planted ones (last fall) are goners. They had only a month to establish before winter, and what a winter! My spring 2012 planted ones, are going to survive ( I think) but with some top dieback on 2. I should probably get a small bag of them anyway. Thanks for the heads up.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I saw them, boy I'm tempted. I think I'll get the small packet. I will try a couple in one spot. And another in my friends yard. My Q.Fusiformis is sluggish in growth. I have at least 3 or 4 Live oak "late drop" that will be good in spring, one after some pruning. My yard only has a couple well drained areas for more trees. I just hope that the trees from those acorns at Sheffeild's don't grow slow like my Q. Fusi. I guess if they are hybrids of coast and plateu oak they may be just like my "late drop" live oaks. I wonder how they stored the seed, and if it has a taproot coming out already. The "late drop" drop around December, I wonder if they are the same tree basically.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Well, I bought the small packet with 4 acorns in it. I think it is going to be the slower growing Q. Fusiformis, by the description. I guess I can find a place for them.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Let me know how it goes! They should sprout more or less immediately.

Sheffield's seems to do a very good job of storage, but there is the question of how well they were stored prior to Sheffield's receiving them as well.

Interesting you've had such slow growth from your fusiformis, others here on GW have had much faster growth from seedlings (I saw a pic someone posted of a one-year old seedling already a couple feet tall).


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Hairmetal, I received the acorns/seed today. They sent more than 4 acorns, which I was supposed to receive. I will start them off in pots. Several of the acorns I have received will do great being planted out in small pots, some I have already planted out in more mature plant beds than they should have been. I have more acorns than I need, in other words. If you want to give me your contact info, I can sent you some Live oak trees.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Hairmetal, I mean I can send you some acorns. not trees.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

i would definitely be interested. It doesn't look like you have email enabled on your GW page...

Thanks - BTW if your offer stands, send me an email via GW. I might be able to part with some Metasequoia seed in trade.

This post was edited by hairmetal4ever on Tue, Mar 18, 14 at 9:17


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Hairmetal, just send me a envelope to J. Gogola 119 Vail lane Smock, Pa 15480. Put a couple stamps in it, and I'll send you some acorns. Some have the tip of a taproot coming out already. I planted out 2 or 3 acorns already in my yard. My friend's yard will get 3-4 of them. There are 6 (likely more) at least, it should be worth a couple stamps anyway. I am also going to order more Q. Virginiana "late drop" for spring planting. I would just put all faith in the Q. Fusi var. Virg, if not for the slow growth and die -back in winter2012 of my slow-growing Q. Fusiformis. I hope it's not all too confusing. My Quercus Virginiana "late drop" planted in spring 2012, have withstood 2 winters, and have good buds for spring 2014. The Q. Fusi I planted in winter 2011 (I think) have died back in 2 out of 3 winters. I hope that is less convoluted twisted explanation. I still put the most faith in the "late drop" Live oak, it has done the best. If your stamps aren't enough to cover the cost, I don't mind adding a quarter or so.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

On it's way, Poaky! Thanks so much!


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I only planted 2 in my friends yard of the acorns. I have plenty left to give you. I may put an acorn or 2 along our newest highway, in an area where they aren't likely to mow in summer. Happy spring, by the way. It was 56F for a high today, and is now 39 F. Not sure of overnight lows to come here, though. I'll be looking for your envelope hairmetal.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Thanks again! I just realized I sent a plain, regular envelope, probably should have stuck a folded piece of bubble wrap or something in there to protect them.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

I got your envelope Hairmetal, I wrapped 3 acorns in a bit of damp paper towel and put in a tiny zip-lock bag. It is marked fragile and I was told they would hand cancel, let me know when you get them and if they arrived fine. I still have 4 left, but not totally sure they are viable, I am waiting to see taproots, they are not dried out, so should be fine. I tried to give you those that looked as if the taproot was starting to come out.


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RE: attn poaky1: q. virginiana Missouri seed source

Thanks! I will watch for them.


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