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Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by Hurtle none (My Page) on
Tue, Apr 23, 13 at 18:03

I'd normally say no but a local park gave me a fruit from the 9/11 survivor tree (a callery pear) and asked me to grow it until it is large enough to put somewhere in the park.

It was not overwintered properly (i.e not stored cool and moist) so I have it in my refrigerator now. How long do I need to chill it before I can attempt to break dormancy?

I told them what it is. They still want it.

Here is a link that might be useful: 9/11 Survivor Tree


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Sentimental but not in the local environment's best interest.
I would not grow it.

University of Georgia hedges their football field with Chinese privet. People clamor for pieces of it ....


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Would I ever grow a callery pear? The reality is that they have taken up permanent residence in every roadbank and abandoned field by the hundreds of thousands.
It is a mistake to choose a tree strictly for the reason of sentiment. The late governor of my state planted a Bradford Pear as a memorial when they were in vogue. The tree fell apart and he had another planted in its place. He even had it named the official tree of the City of Baltimore?????
In front of St Alban's School in DC is a clone of the Thorn of Glastonbury. Crataegus is subject to countless diseases in my area. Good intentions perhaps but this is a poor choice for this highly visable area.
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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

The request from the park seems completely irrational and very irresponsible. I would expect better from someone in charge of a park (even a local community park).


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

It probably would be ok out here in the desert. No ice storms and no chance it escapes to the wild. One day it'll find a way to split if its grown the way it normally is in the nursery; if trained properly perhaps not.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

If any of you people lived in NY during 911 you would understand!!


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by nyboy none (My Page) on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 11:31

It is the rule of natural selection and evolution. I have long wondered the following (political) paradox:

Economists and professors all agree that no one shall act against the "market power/invisible hand" because it is nature. Those who act against market are evil commies.

Biologists and professors all agree that the government shall act against the "invasive" species despite that it is nature. Those who do not act against "invasives" are criminals.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Well, jujujojo, only if you consider man's having brought the species to North America as "natural". Otherwise its not "natural" for these "invasives" to be "invading".


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

famartin z5 NE NV
The entire human market and its rules are considered "natural".


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

If you say so, but I'm sure you'll find plenty here who disagree with you...


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

famartin z5 NE NV
Do you have expertise in market, financing and economics?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Do you have experience in biology or ecology?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

So, can one of you nay sayers answer Hurtle 's question?

To give it your best shot, Hurtle, remove the seeds from the fruit and wash off all of the pulp. You can soak the seeds overnight. I like to germinate seeds from woody plants in moist sphagnum moss, sealed in a plastic bag and put in the fridge. Soak it and then wring it to remove excess water. You shouldn't need to stratify these for more than a couple of months, I wouldn't think.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

"So, can one of you nay sayers answer Hurtle 's question?"

See above: we already did! The answer from the majority was, "No, we wouldn't."


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by rbrady 5/Eastern Ia (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 10:46

Why not train it as a Bonsai?

Rhonda


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

famartin z5 NE NV (My Page) on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 14:11

How wonderful. Assume you have access to authority in biology or ecology, I am posting these questions:

1. You identified the tree as an individual from an invasive species. By the same definition, do you consider yourself an individual from an invasive species.

2. Is there any study showing invasive species decrease or increase biodiversity on a continent over one million years? If not, what your scientific basis is.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I don't have any experience in those fields either, but figured it would be a good question to pose because I was sure that the answer was no. Thanks for proving me right. Your opinions on the subject have been voided.

But, I'll be nice...

To answer number 1: Yes, actually.

To answer number 2: I am not personally aware of any such study over such a long time frame. But, since none of us will be here in 1 million years, but we will be around in 50 (hopefully), I chose to pay attention to the shorter term studies which show biodiversity decreases due to invasive species. I shall not bother to make a list, you can find enough on your own using Google.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

famartin z5 NE NV
Certain people think ability (expertise) is a title. It is not. Talking to me need critical thinking ability. I have put my points there.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

callery pear is non native and is invasive. They reduce biodiversity when they escape from cultivation and also reduce the quality of forage for native birds. Lets take a native white oak tree for example which supports over 500 species of lepidoptera and compare that to the callery pear which supports zero lepidoptera species. Why are lepidoptera important? because they are the main food sources for our native songbirds....over 90% of songbirds rely on these lepidoptera caterpillars to feed themselves and their young.

This post was edited by greenthumbzdude on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 12:38


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

It's too late to remove their fixation on that survivor tree, although three other survivor trees were not Callery but Little-Leaf Lindens , Tilia cordata.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I'll have to admit the irony that a Callery pear would come to represent the strength and determination of 9/11! I would agree with many of the others that the tree species should not be planted but this may need to be an exception because of the significance, if the seed is indeed from the 9/11 tree.

Dirr says to cold stratify the seed for 60 - 90 days at 32 - 36 degrees.

I would train the tree(s) as bonsai as rbrady suggested. This tree is a reliable bonsai subject and there are plenty of bonsai websites, or local bonsai clubs to guide you if you are not familiar with the art. Who knows, you could get some bonsais started in training and the city might be more interested in caring for and displaying them rather than planting them in the ground. You may also want to keep a couple for yourself.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 19:42

The nuisance aspect of the tree is the key point.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Plant this one and sneak into the wild at night and get rid of three.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

If they really wanted to preserve the actual tree's genes then they would take cuttings or tissue culture. A seed from the tree is not an exact copy of the original since it was formed using pollen from two trees. The offspring is likely to be a thorny specimen.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Let's imagine that someone had found a cockroach in the remains of the buildings. Would the people in some insect forum be discussing ways to breed the cockroach and grow it's offspring to release into the world? To me, this callery pear idea is every bit as bizarre and ridiculous...maybe even a bit more so.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

No, but I would laugh heartily when it split itself in half during the first ice storm. Sorry, I despise this shockingly overplanted, inferior, cliche trees...

Plant it inside and prune it as a houseplant.

Find a better tree for your landscaping. Try sourwood, American smokewood, or sassafras.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Pink headed warbler, a new world insect eating bird
 photo 3_zps1abe17d8.jpg

Red necked Tanager, a new world fruit eating bird
 photo 8_zps750e8a35.jpg

What a sensational post. Imagine our lovely new world warblers suffering from no lepidoptera (the order of butterflies and moths) caterpillars as a result of the invasive callery pear trees.

Lepidopterans are the most widely spread insect throughout the world. Here are some questions for you:

1. What is your source that callery pear trees support zero lepidoptera species? Codling moth rolling its eyes ...

2. The callery pear trees are spread by bird-droppings after the pears are consumed by birds. Without this new abundance of fruits, the population of fruit-eating birds, mammals and insects may decrease. Do you favor caterpillar-eating birds over fruit-eating birds?

3. What evidence shows that the Native species of lepidoptera caterpillars will not start to consume the callery pear tree within the next several hundred years?

4. What evidence shows that, facing a lack of the lepidoptera caterpillars, our new world warblers cannot switch to a diet of other insects, such as but not limited to Hymenoptera "caterpillars"?

5. Obviously, the lovely new world warblers survived the era of massive DDT use, and continued pest controls done by households, cities, counties, etc. Now, how do you compare the quantity of "the reduction of lepidoptera caterpillars caused by human pest controls" to that "caused by the callery pear trees allegedly crowding out the white oaks"? In fact, these callery pears are observed to occupy disturbed lands already emptied by human activities.

6. Prove your correlation that more white oaks is equivalent to more lepidoptera catepillars.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

All your questions should be answered in Doug Tallamy's book bringing nature home...he did years of research on this subject and he explains the relationships in this book. He also includes a large list of plants and the number of Lepidoptera they support.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

What evidence shows that the Native species of lepidoptera caterpillars will not start to consume the callery pear tree within the next several hundred years?

You mean after they die off because of lack of food sources ... then they can come back to life and adapt?

We have plants that were imported to North America in the 1600's. Do you have any evidence that native lepidoptera have started to adapt to those in the last several hundred years?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

esh_ga z7 GA
DNA does change at a constant rate.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Apparently, snasxs, oops! I mean jujujojo thinks the world is still Pangea. It is not!

You ask others for evidence to disprove your contrarian point of view, yet never provide FACTS that support your argument. Eg: What evidence do you have that proves native lepidoptera WILL evolve and adapt to foreign invasive species before they become extinct?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

j0nd03 7b AR,
I am not snasxs. I know HE was taken away by the US Department of Homeland Security. And who are you?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Oh, is it snasxs? Sounds like some of her earlier arguments and she never provided any evidence for her points under that id either.

Do you have any evidence that native lepidoptera have started to adapt to those in the last several hundred years?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

snasxs was a girl - a woman who said she was married to an American man. Sounds like you didn't know much about snasxs at all.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

esh_ga z7 GA,
Nope, I am no snasxs. I heard HE was persecuted by the US Department of Homeland Security - not be accident. His case was quite well known in his region now.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

"Native plants evolved with native wildlife, so everything from the shape and structure of the flowers to the chemical content of the leaves is tailored to the feeding habits of native insects, birds, and animals. If plants insects evolved with disappear, so does the wildlife that depends on them."

"Ornamental plants from China and Europe do not supply food for our native insects. The insects have not evolved to be able to eat them. The anatomy and chemistry of each type of insect generally means that just a few types of co-evolved native plants meet its needs."

"In fact, most native fauna stay away from imported plants. For example, native Blueberry has been observed hosting about 285 native species of butterflies and moths, native Elderberry about 40 species, while exotic Flowering Quince was observed hosting 6. Our native Oaks support over 500 native species of Lepidotera. On the other hand, Phragmites australis, an imported plant and invasive menace in North America, supports 170 species of Lepidoptera in its homeland, while supporting only 5 species here."

“Unfortunately we have loaded our suburban landscapes with nonnative ornamentals at the expense of the native plants that once supported our local ecosystems.”

“Worldwide, 37% of animal species are herbivorous insects. These species are collectively very good at converting plant tissue of all types to insect tissue, and as a consequence they also excel at providing food ��" in the form of themselves ��" for other species. In fact, a large percentage of the world’s fauna depends entirely on insects to access the energy stored in plants….[for example,] if you count all of the terrestrial bird species in North America that rely on insects … to feed their young, you would find that figure to be about 96%.”
-Doug Tallamy
If you get the book they include numerous graphs and figures that show these correlations


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 13:32

People motivated by an emotional response are not interested in facts. You see this over and over on this site - and elsewhere. Some will argue a point to the death rather than recognize that there is more to the subject than how pretty a plant looks to them or how touched they were by a circumstance. It moves from stupidity to arrogance when the talking down begins. Funnily, the most ignorant may be the most prone to this.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

A non native is prefect for NYC. We have a large lady in middle of our harbor wecloming the non natives!! This country is all about non natives.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

A non native is perfect for NYC
That's the kind of thinking that moved a group of Shakespeare fanatics to release hundreds of European Starlings and Sparrows in NY's Central Park in 1890.
You guessed it, now these winged rodents are permanent residents of the entire North America.
I'd prefer to live in a world free from Ghetto Palm, Urban Kudzu, European Starlings, Norway Rat, and last but not least Callery Pear.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Sam are you native american?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

What this tree means to New Yorkers who lived thought 911 is "We will overcome and continue to live" Watching 911 on Tv was very diffrent from living it.This tree gives all NY pride to be a New Yorker!


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

"This tree gives all NY pride to be a New Yorker!"

No it doesn't. It may give a few people a fuzzy feeling, but they are probably just looking for pretty much anything to latch onto. They should take more pride in their state and not want to disgrace it by planting this scourge.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 13:20
Is that you copying the plain tales from your favorite book? It is like someone reading his bible, how is that convincing to nonbelievers, who fundamentally do not have the same approach to things.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 20:29

Like I said, when the talking down begins...

There really is no point in arguing with a frozen mindset. Especially when that mindset thinks it is smarter than you are. Waste of time. Sometimes it seems it wouldn't hurt at all if the forum was structured so everyone was allowed to say their piece one time and one time only.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 20:29
Psychologically speaking, you are confessing about your own mindset.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 21:51

Its somewhat ironic reading this thread as the "majority" of each individual here has does more harm to the environment over their lifetime than any individual pear tree has ever done. Aren't we all just a bunch of hypocrites? I certainly am but thats human nature.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

whass you bring up a good point but I think there are ways to atleast minimize the impact that we have on this planet...and one of them is by not planting callery pear or any invasive species. Jujujojo, my intentions in providing those quotes was to give you a preview of the book....the book is science based and the person who wrote it is a professor at University of Delaware ..not some amateur nature lover....the answers you seek are in this book. I think for right now it would be helpful if you could write your whole phylisophical, ethical, and moral beliefs on invasive plants like callery pear so us pro native people can get a better understanding of your way of thinking. I am open minded so I am interested in what you have to say.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

What Brandon says, for me. And those who think that planting one more of these trees won't do harm because each of us already has an impact on the planet, well, the roadside already has trash, so what does it matter if I throw my garbage out the car window? What could be wrong with changing my oil at the beach since there are already tar balls floating in? Since the wetlands that continue onto my property are already degraded, why shouldn't I be allowed to pave the area?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 12:05

Yep: there's a whole world out there beyond your own little sphere ruled by your personal inclinations, needs and preferences. Making out a harmful tree to be harmless or inconsequential because you'd like to plant one yourself or see others plant them does not change the essential fact that it is harmful, no matter how much you would like it to not matter. Promoting species that have a detrimental effect on the natural and human environment in the region being discussed is counterproductive, even antisocial.

This post was edited by bboy on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 12:11


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

From TVs, most people know animals are territorial. Biologically, Homo sapiens, us, are also territorial. We are also highly visual. This animal instinct translates into culture. The reason for South African Apartheid and US racial segregation is rooted in this - males react to the different with aggression and females react with fear. It is a feeling that is not scientific or rational.

As, reflected in the perfect post of Sam-md, quote "I'd prefer to live in a world free from Ghetto Palm, Urban Kudzu, European Starlings, Norway Rat, and last but not least Callery Pear."

This deeply rooted US culture impacts every Americans, from intelligent scientists to poorly educated DHS officers. In US colleges, not just research, but politics play an important role in tenure. It is observed that Americans choose allies by race and religion at workplace. As a result, an artificial White and Judial- Christian Judaeo-Christian majority is created. This create a fundamental bias.

I am not saying minorities cannot succeed in the US, but they must please the majority first, and soften by damaging minority interests.

This topic is obviously reacted with passion. Look at the posts of bboy, for an example.

But when it comes down to the science, there is no study or proof showing the (quote bboy) " harmful tree" is really harmful.

If the United States want to lead the world, it needs to consider people and culture who are more fact oriented and less race-religion-faith oriented. By mere Police crack down, the reaction is only temporarily suppressed.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

What a crock to compare weed trees that are demonstrably harmful with racism. What an absolutely big load.

When it comes to science, some people want to ignore the facts and think that because they have an opinion, it is equal to what anybody with any other set of facts says.

Here's some facts: the pears that are sold for "beauty" are in fact reservoirs of pestilence. The pear psylla, an insect that used to be somewhat rare, takes refuge in the forests of these. Growing pears now means that you have to spray for the pear psylla as a matter of course, rather than watching and spraying when it shows up.

Fireblight reservoirs. Enough said there.

Somehow you make the jump from trees that spread like wildfire and harbor diseases for orchardists and backyard growers to battle, to apartheid and male/female generalizations, even stereotypes? Not much rationality there.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Jujujojo your logic does not follow...sorry but I think you should stick to finance. You are misinformed big time. I don't now how much experience you have had with invasive speces but where I live the entire understory is made of of non native invasives like amur honeysucke, tartarian honeysuckle, japanese barberry, burning bush, autumn olive,etc. It is so bad that one would not be not be able to tell the difference between a picture taken in Northern China and one taken here in Southeastern PA.When I travel to places that are untouched with zero invasive species the differences in the amount of biodiversity in both plants and animals is stagering. I would like it if the landscape of the Americas could return to its former glory. I know that it s not likely but I have hope and determination to atleast try to bring back what was once here.

This post was edited by greenthumbzdude on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 22:37


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

brandon7 7 TN (My Page) on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 22:42

(quote) "irrational thinking"

Brandon, please explain which item in my post is "irrational thinking". I am waiting for your answer. Thanks.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

The concept of “harmful” can be subjective i.e. biased.

The ancient Egyptians notice that their crops grew much better after floods of the Nile. The ancient Chinese observed the same result after floods of the Yellow river and Long River (the Yangtze). In modern days, the best example is the floods of the mighty Amazon River. Trees, birds, fish, insects, mammals all evolve to live with floods. The resulting biodiversity of the Amazon Basin is splendid.

But floods are truly harmful to human built structures. Floods, a natural occurrence, neutral or beneficial to wild-life, are considered a divine punishment by the scripture. It is funny for me to read the chapters claiming that animals had to be shipped into Noah’s Ark to be protected from floods. In a parable, are my friends on GW here attempting the same protection from “invasive” species?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Specifically, for the case of callery pear and lepidoptera caterpillars of my friend greenthumbzdude, based on the unscientific tales of the book of Doug Tallamy, I have posted the following questions. I am looking forward to rational responses that respect facts.

1. What is your source that callery pear trees support zero lepidoptera species? Codling moth rolling its eyes ...

2. The callery pear trees are spread by bird-droppings after the pears are consumed by birds. Without this new abundance of fruits, the population of fruit-eating birds, mammals and insects may decrease. Do you favor caterpillar-eating birds over fruit-eating birds?

3. What evidence shows that the Native species of lepidoptera caterpillars will not start to consume the callery pear tree within the next several hundred years?

4. What evidence shows that, facing a lack of the lepidoptera caterpillars, our new world warblers cannot switch to a diet of other insects, such as but not limited to Hymenoptera "caterpillars"?

5. Obviously, the lovely new world warblers survived the era of massive DDT use, and continued pest controls done by households, cities, counties, etc. Now, how do you compare the quantity of "the reduction of lepidoptera caterpillars caused by human pest controls" to that "caused by the callery pear trees allegedly crowding out the white oaks"? In fact, these callery pears are observed to occupy disturbed lands already emptied by human activities.

6. Prove your correlation that more white oaks is equivalent to more lepidoptera catepillars.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Dzitmoidonc 6 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 20:31

What are your evidences that both the pear psylla and Fireblight decrease bio-diversity over long term?

I can understand taht orchardists and backyard growers resent these in short term. See my post on "flood".

As for the post which you react passionately, can you find when and where did I mention "stereotypes" in it? Please read it slowly and calmly. Be prepared to read different opinions without jumping up and down in steam.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

1. "What is your source that callery pear trees support zero Lepidoptera species? Codling moth rolling its eyes ... "

Take a look at the leaves of a callery pear….do you ever notice any holes or munched leaves? I think not…why? Because they are not being eaten by a significant number of Lepidoptera. In its native range this pear may have many Lepidoptera but here where it is nonnative those Lepidoptera are few in number much less than any native species.
2. "The callery pear trees are spread by bird-droppings after the pears are consumed by birds. Without this new abundance of fruits, the population of fruit-eating birds, mammals and insects may decrease. Do you favor caterpillar-eating birds over fruit-eating birds? "

I value both types of birds. Birds are only eating the pear fruits because they have no other options available. People are simply not planting the types of trees and bushes that produce high calorie fruits needed for migration and daily life. I guarantee you that if given a choice a fruit eating bird would choose a native fruit (like red mulberry) over a callery pear fruit.
3." What evidence shows that the Native species of Lepidoptera caterpillars will not start to consume the callery pear tree within the next several hundred years? "

How do you know that anything will exist within the next several hundred years…an asteroid could hit the planet and destroy everything…we should focus on the present
4. "What evidence shows that, facing a lack of the Lepidoptera caterpillars, our new world warblers cannot switch to a diet of other insects, such as but not limited to Hymenoptera "caterpillars"? "

A majority of new world warblers are specialists…feeding on certain species of Lepidoptera. Specialists cannot adapt to change rapidly and often become endangered (panda) or extinct.
5. "Obviously, the lovely new world warblers survived the era of massive DDT use, and continued pest controls done by households, cities, counties, etc. Now, how do you compare the quantity of "the reduction of lepidoptera caterpillars caused by human pest controls" to that "caused by the callery pear trees allegedly crowding out the white oaks"? In fact, these callery pears are observed to occupy disturbed lands already emptied by human activities. "

I have seen them growing on the edges of forests as well not just disturbed lands.
6. "Prove your correlation that more white oaks is equivalent to more lepidoptera catepillars."

This is observable ,the oaks in general support over 500 species. This is well documented in the book I mentioned and was done by entomologists over a span of several years.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

1. "What is your source that callery pear trees support zero Lepidoptera species? Codling moth rolling its eyes ... "

Take a look at the leaves of a callery pear….do you ever notice any holes or munched leaves? I think not…why? Because they are not being eaten by a significant number of Lepidoptera. In its native range this pear may have many Lepidoptera but here where it is nonnative those Lepidoptera are few in number much less than any native species.
2. "The callery pear trees are spread by bird-droppings after the pears are consumed by birds. Without this new abundance of fruits, the population of fruit-eating birds, mammals and insects may decrease. Do you favor caterpillar-eating birds over fruit-eating birds? "

I value both types of birds. Birds are only eating the pear fruits because they have no other options available. People are simply not planting the types of trees and bushes that produce high calorie fruits needed for migration and daily life. I guarantee you that if given a choice a fruit eating bird would choose a native fruit (like red mulberry) over a callery pear fruit.
3." What evidence shows that the Native species of Lepidoptera caterpillars will not start to consume the callery pear tree within the next several hundred years? "

How do you know that anything will exist within the next several hundred years…an asteroid could hit the planet and destroy everything…we should focus on the present
4. "What evidence shows that, facing a lack of the Lepidoptera caterpillars, our new world warblers cannot switch to a diet of other insects, such as but not limited to Hymenoptera "caterpillars"? "

A majority of new world warblers are specialists…feeding on certain species of Lepidoptera. Specialists cannot adapt to change rapidly and often become endangered (panda) or extinct.
5. "Obviously, the lovely new world warblers survived the era of massive DDT use, and continued pest controls done by households, cities, counties, etc. Now, how do you compare the quantity of "the reduction of lepidoptera caterpillars caused by human pest controls" to that "caused by the callery pear trees allegedly crowding out the white oaks"? In fact, these callery pears are observed to occupy disturbed lands already emptied by human activities. "

I have seen them growing on the edges of forests as well not just disturbed lands.
6. "Prove your correlation that more white oaks is equivalent to more lepidoptera catepillars."

This is observable ,the oaks in general support over 500 species. This is well documented in the book I mentioned and was done by entomologists over a span of several years.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

The financial market analogy was kinda lame (are you really in fnce?) And pushing xenophobia was really lame. The rest of technical stuffs on birds and trees, I don't understand much and don't know if we need this much for disliking a tree. Any tree has good stuffs going on, but we just don't have unlimited space to plant all.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I can understand where you are coming from ttonk, it was not long ago that I thought the same thing, all trees are good; creating oxygen, making food, cleaning water, fixing erosion, etc. What TV and various organizations don't tell you about are the complex and intertwined relationships that trees have with other living organisms. These relationships are formed over long periods of time and are essential for for health of an ecosystem.Otherwise you have trees like callery pear who are unaware of their place or niche in the ecosystem and thus cause major problems for other organisms.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 11:01

Answer -- of course not. Except....

A 5-pear graft I planted right beside my border stream has, in fact, several callery pear grafts on it. Not good, but the tree is holding that part of the streamside soil together. I need something there to slow erosion, so the pear stays (and one graft produces good pears) until it eventually gets undermined & topples over.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by ttonk 6A (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 17:39

But this tree is the only survivor of 9/11. Imagine future disasters, such as but not limited to asteroid hitting earth.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 17:00

1. Prove that Lepidoptera consumes solely on leaves.

2. What is your scientific evidence that: if given a choice a fruit eating bird would choose a native fruit (like red mulberry) over a callery pear fruit. Hint, you are a mammal.

3. You agree that you have no evidence.

4. What is your scientific evidence that “a majority of new world warblers are specialist” that concentrate on one species of food source. For example, the diversity of Tanager family seems to suggest otherwise.

5. So you agree with my observation.

6. You agree that you have no evidence.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 22:13
“It is so bad that one would not be not be able to tell the difference between a picture taken in Northern China and one taken here in Southeastern PA.”

Where did you take the pictures? The views of Northern China are actually dramatically different from Southeastern PA.

The ornamental trees from Asia are one in a million. In human controlled settings, they are used for their ornamental values. In nature, the majority of plants in Northern China are not that distinguishable. You would have never even seen a picture of them. They are green leaves with no distinguishable shapes, flower or fruit. But that is a majority.

If you go to rural China, you will marvel the similarity between Northern China and US Midwest. Most farmlands in Northern China are used to grow corn - an American super crop. Farmers in China choose corn because it has superior agriculture values. This is not by coincidence. Many people plant ornamental trees, some from Northern China, because they have superior ornamental values. Both cases reflect that humans are always maximizing their own interests.

I think your sentence “I would like it if the landscape of the Americas could return to its former glory.” is a perfect sentence. You are attaching human sentiments to nature. This bias is unscientific in the domain of biology and ecology.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by beng z6b western MD (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 11:01

Did the callery pear trees split and perish? If not, it is only a nuisance for you, a mammal - Homo Sapiens.

You know, the bamboos perform synchronous blooming and die after blooming. This is not just a nuisance, but a disaster for Pandas, whose diet is dependent on bamboos.

But why should bamboos care? From the view of the bamboos: Pandas, however cute and cuddly by Homo Sapiens, is a pest who eat bamboos.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

What I meant by the pictures looking similar is based on the types of vegetation that you would find if you took a pic of a wild area in North China and one here in Southeastern PA,essentially the same and continuing to look more similar

I dont need to prove that lepidoptera consume leaves...all you have to do is google it, its what they do. Thats like trying to ask me if cows eat grass

You are entitled to your own opionions but your opionions are based largely on false information
1.) Why don't you value the native species that are already exist here in the United States?If you did you wouldn't be supporting the planting of callery pears.
2.) Why do you need evidence for everything when your own statements are lacking evidence?
3.) I think you are looking at things from a long term point of view...am I right or wrong? You feel no need to restrict the planting of invasives because they will evolve and become a new species over time and find a niche
4.) Do you care about human caused extinction? How does it make you feel? (and don't say that it doesn't exist because there are plenty of examples, passenger pigeon, carolina parakeet, great auk, dodo, syrian elephant, barbary lion, etc.)


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 12:23

The types of vegetation that you would find if you took a pic of a wild area in North China and one here in Southeastern PA, are very very different. The ornamental trees from Asia are one in a million. In human controlled settings, they are used for their ornamental values. In nature, the majority of plants in Northern China are not that distinguishable. You would have never even seen a picture of them. They are green leaves with no distinguishable shapes, flower or fruit. But they are what you see - a majority of plants.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 12:23

1 Planting callery pears is not associated with not to value native species.
2 Supply details and give examples.
4 The force of nature include the reality of human presence. Humans may see that they are doing something to protect nature. But that "something" they do, may be causing more harm than good.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I was not talking just about callery pear but the bush honeysuckles and various other invasives that are now at home in my backyard. My backyard is starting to turn into a chinese forest.
"The force of nature include the reality of human presence. Humans may see that they are doing something to protect nature. But that "something" they do, may be causing more harm than good."
So your saying that we should have a hands off approach when it comes to nature and that nature will fix itself if say we clearcut an old growth forest or overfish the tuna population....I dont think so we need to do something if we are to be sustainable and continue to live on this planet.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

The Callery Pears are in full bloom around here, and I think they are pretty, but I would not grow one, for various reasons. Here are a few:

1) There are already enough of them growing around here. It's like planting more Forsythia. Can't anyone think of planting anything besides Forsythia? There are already zillions of Forsythias.

2) There are many beautiful native alternatives, like Amelanchier, Cercis, Magnolia, etc.. And although Pyrus calleryana hasn't proven to be invasive in this region yet, I would err on the side of caution with this plant.

3) I like real pears. They are yummy and nutritious. If I plant a pear tree it's going to be a real pear.

4) They seem to have poor form, with narrow crotches that eventually break during storms.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

So despite the fact that I wouldn't grow a Callery Pear myself, I was a little excited to go and see these especially beautiful specimens that are growing down town along the parking lot of a local bank. They are really pretty when they bloom! So I'm driving downtown, and I get to the intersection where the bank is located and.....the trees are gone! Huh???

Three years ago, I took this picture -

And I took this one today! They cut them down! I truly wonder what happened to these trees.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 22:25

Judging by the branching structure visible in your picture it is possible they started breaking up. Had any ice storms in recent years?


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Yeah, if one split then they might have decided to remove them all.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I have heard some of you comment on ice storms being a contributing factor to the collapse of these trees. Having lived in ice free locations for many years, I can swear to you that they will split during a mild storm, in a gust of wind, and just.....because. it can happen at any time once one of these trees reaches a certain size.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Perhaps victims of TS Sandy.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 16:40

As history has told us repeatedly, your hands on approach make it worse. Here is what a normal daily plant in North China look like:

 photo 6_zpsdd2ac720.jpg


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

lol.


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

I've linked here a segment from this morning's Sunday Morning on CBS. It features a flock of wild turkey. Guess what they are eating?

Here is a link that might be useful: Feasting Turkeys, Buffalo NY


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

  • Posted by whaas 5a SE WI (My Page) on
    Mon, Nov 25, 13 at 21:31

Wild pear trees?


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Is this a Bradford or Callery Pear?

Is this a Bradford or Callery Pear?

Or something else??

Here is a link that might be useful: Close-up of blossoms..


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RE: Would you ever grow a callery pear?

ohhhh .. its something else... for sure .... lol

surprised you could not smell the stink???

there are some awesome pruning stubs there also ...

i am wondering .... if this tree was topped at some point in its life ...

i cant even begin to explain... why it has all the shoot growth in the center there .. unless it split oh so many years ago ...

i would call this tree... 'firewood' ....

ken


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