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toronado3800

Quercus coccinea, scarlet oak, growth rate

Just checking. Mine which I transplanted last fall has six or seven inches of new growth and it has only been leafed out a few weeks.

Medium or slow growth and a difficult transplant are what I was expecting. The instant gratification part of me is quite pleased.

Now that I see this season's growth pattern I think I see the same pattern a few feet down from the top. Is this what I should expect or does all the growth come at once then stop in May?

Comments (67)

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    man o live ...

    a plant that can grow for centuries...

    and you are ready to give up after a year or two ..????

    think in tree years.. not prankster..new age technology .. tweet today.. gone tomorrow time frame... and your experience with trees.. will grow greatly ...

    might i suggest annuals.. if that is your patience level ... lol ...

    crikey and blimey.. all rolled into one ..

    ken

    ps: recent oak transplants .. take at lest a year to 3.. to really get going ... they are growing roots... that you cant see ...

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    Ken,

    I'm not suggesting it take off like a rocket its first year or two in the ground. I just want to see it leaf out to give me some comfort in it actually being alive. Lol. I was just wondering if it is normal to take this long with such a young tree (3 years old) to show signs of life above the ground after being transplanted in the Fall.

    Thanks, I will stay patient.

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    Hey Toronado - how is your Scarlet Oak doing this spring? How much growth has it put in since this last pic?

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    How things going hairmetal? My scarlet oak is an interesting fella. It held those leaves all winter and got bent to the ground a few times by snow load. Then sprung up on its own every time.

    This year it leafed out a little late but so did everything else. I say I have only six inches or so of new growth out of the leader this year BUT I am in no way upset.

    For one, it is a bit more thickly leafed this year. Even though its spot isn't really FULL sun it seems like more than the tree was exposed to in the nursery so it is filling out.

    For two, this winter caused tons of problems to lots of trees. My Scarlett oak looks fine.

    For three, deer seem to have come by and nibbled on it. A few branches have way up were torn off by something or other. I haven't found hoof prints but these were three feet up!

    Four, for some time in late May the tree was bent over a bit by its own weight. Long enough it even seemed the foliage was orientated for the lean and I thought it would pick a new leader! (This cherry tree in the woodline has done that) Then the tree uprighted itself and the leaves have flattened out.

    I'll be interested in how long it keeps growing this year.

    {{gwi:364110}}

    {{gwi:364111}}

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    It would seem odd, initially, that your tree would grow more slowly this year than last year, but if you transplanted last year, it was growing out of preformed buds from the previous season, whereas this year's growth was formed in buds last year, which would have been stressed from transplant.

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    I have 5 Scarlet Oaks that sprouted from acorns this spring. I noticed an odd phenomenon on them as well.

    They are all in their second growth flush this season - the first was when they sprouted out of the acorn. It seems after this second flush, they're now all about the same size, despite being quite different at first. One tree had 6 initial leaves and was 3" taller than the rest, but it's second flush was smaller (3 leaves) and shorter, although still very healthy looking, while the other trees had larger and more leaves on their second flush, but were smaller (4-5 leaves and shorter) initially - as if they are "catching up" with the originally largest seeding. Not sure if this is normal, but it's kinda neat.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This slowing down after a year in the ground happens on my locally bought potted transplants. I have a Serviceberry and Crabapple which have done it as well.

    I bet a couple things are at play.

    Forest Keeling takes good care of em before seeling them to me.

    The soil they are in has fertilizer. Mine does not.

    The first year in the ground I water. The second year they get less care.

    Those are my theories anyway.

  • poaky1
    9 years ago

    I will try to remember to take a pic of my scarlet oak.

  • poaky1
    9 years ago

    I still need to remember to take a pic of my Scarlet oak. None of my oak trees grows much the same year as planted, or if fall planted, they don't grow the following growing season. In my experience, my Scarlet oak is the slowest growing of all my oaks. I read that it is fast growing for some, but unless it starts growing like a beanstalk this year for me, it isn't a fast grower here.

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    Poaky, I think like anything, it varies a lot depending on conditions and even seed source - some provenances are faster-growing than others. However, most of the time Scarlet Oak grows pretty fast. My little seedlings (grown from acorns this spring) are from a PA seed source so should do OK for me in MD. However the jury is still out on how fast they'll grow.

    How old is your Scarlet Oak?

  • poaky1
    9 years ago

    I will say 2 yrs in my yard. I know that trees as individuals can vary, I have 3 English oaks all 3 are different in a big way. One is like a beanstalk skinny and tall, one is squat and wide and the 3rd is in between, but has leaves like a Chestnut oak, all 3 from England acorns, same tree. I have pictures, but have posted them so many times all have seen them I'm sure. I will try to remember the pic of the Scarlet. Maybe I'll be shocked and it will be a couple ft taller than I remember, when I get the pic. It's raining and getting darker out, so maybe tommorrow I'll get a pic. I put it on the property line in an area that it gets overlooked alot. {{gwi:364113}} here is from last fall, I believe. I searched my photobucket and found this, so I guess I did get a pic last year. If it is much bigger, I will update with another pic, it SHOULD be bigger now.

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    9 years ago

    Here's a Scarlet Oak I planted fall 2012 as 12" seedling. Last winter was really wet and soggy but it seemed to pull through just fine despite their preference for drier sites. It just went through a growth spurt and now stands around 30" tall. I'm right at the FL state line south of it's native range. Growth isn't as fast as some other native oaks like Q.nigra or Q.pagoda. I'd say it has been about equal to Q.alba for me.

    (Ignore those annoying chamberbitter weeds under it, they're now gone)

    {{gwi:364114}}

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    9 years ago

    Here are some that I planted from acorns last fall. Seed collected around Huntsville. 100% germination rate.

    {{gwi:364115}}

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    Yours are bigger than mine, for the most part, but mine also probably sprouted a bit later-mine didn't break surface until ~April 1, and didn't really take off until May.

    They look pretty good.

    What I can't reconcile in my mind...young scarlet oaks have such an irregular pattern (such as yours, alabamatreehugger), yet larger scarlet oaks are almost always near-pyramidal with a nice, straight trunk, then spreading at maturity, but still with the tall, straight trunk a good ways up the tree.

    Obviously, they do end up growing straight, I just can't get my head around how.

  • poaky1
    9 years ago

    This is an older post, but, here is an updated pic of my Scarlet oak {{gwi:364116}} The older pic {{gwi:364113}} I think these are a year apart, so not too bad.

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    Just to update, my scarlet oak did not live. I am now technically 0-3 with oak trees. I lost a willow oak and 2 scarlet oaks. I think the willow oak was dead when I received...though I can't confirm. One of Scarlets died in the pot. Funny thing is oaks seem to be the only trees I'vehad trouble like this with and I have a gaping hole in my backyard just begging for a majestic oak to fill the space. Call me crazy but I am considering rolling the dice again with either Scarlet or Willow in a 3 gallon size.

  • arktrees
    9 years ago

    thapranksta,
    Don't know how you are starting out, and what you are using but I might be able to help you a bit. If you are using bare root trees, then Scarlet is known to be problematic being bare root. There are some bare root suppliers that know how to handle them, but IMHO you are better of not starting with bare root trees. See link below for small trees that are pot grown. Shipping is very reasonable for the supplier linked below. Also if you are going to pot them, then DO NOT use the standard potting mixes. You will need a much better draining mix. Scarlet Oak originates from dry ridge tops and if the potting soil etc retains too much water, then they will not make it. Next keep potted plants on the dry side for the reasons stated above. I learned this from "experience". DON"T over water. USE root pruning pots with these. They will be prone to getting rootbound in a hurry, so get some root pruning pots (this helps the over watering aspect too). When planting out, make sure it's not a soggy location, and it would not hurt to make a mound in which to plant for the same reasons as stated for the potted plants. Also planting depth is critical. They won't tolerate being planted too deep. The above are just from my experience with this species, having tried bare root (100% successful, but I had learned from an earlier potted tree much of the above), grown from acorn, and one large B&B tree for my own. Not a "hard" tree, but you have to be aware of their sensitivities.

    toronado,
    Our B&B tree continued to put on a single flush of growth, but this years was the best yet. Shoots were at least to as much as 32", and that is just from lower branches I could reach. Our trees appears to be fully "established" now, judging from the rate of caliper increase last season, and is occurring this season. Therefore 2'-2.5' annual growth rate in descent soil and conditions would seem about average. Though another poster may have something interesting to post on this subject. :-)

    Arktrees

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pine Ridge Gardens

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    The first tree, Willow Oak, was bare root. Both Scarlet Oaks were in a small pot. I ended up really neglecting the one I left in a pot so I know why it died. The one I chose to plant "teased" me for a while with a green hue to its trunk but never put out a single bud. The location I put it in didn't appear to be a soggy location but I will move it a few foot out to rule out the location and I will try to plant it a little higher as well. I typically tease out as many roots as I can get out without breaking away the vast majority of the potting soil when planting in the ground from pots but I'm not sure I even want to bother the root system at all. Curious...do any of you guys add any amendments like peat moss to the soil when planting oaks?

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    Larger Scarlet Oak (3 gallon pot) on the way...wish me luck. :-)

  • j0nd03
    9 years ago

    I got over 50 inches of growth out of one of my three-year-old scarlet oaks this year. The other 3 only grew 1-2 feet, but I really enjoyed watching the big one grow :)

    Good luck pranksta!

    Edit: I just realized if you click on the sideways pics, they are in the correct orientation in the new window. Cool.

    The tree had just finished a 17" growth spurt it started in late August. It was a beast this year! Also I had just finished pruning some small branches off of the bottom foot or so of the tree. I am hoping it branches out next year.

    This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Sep 25, 14 at 14:21

  • arktrees
    9 years ago

    pranksta,
    Take some pics of the roots before planting. Probable want to bare root it as well. It's probable going to have some root issues that need to be addressed for the long term.

    In my previous post, I mentioned a mound to plant it in. The mounds I use are composed of topsoil (NO amendments). Typically I make them approximately 3.5'-4' and 6"-8" tall in the middle above the existing soil grade. the ideal is to get much of the new planting root zone above any possible water pooling in the existing soil. The roots will then grow out and into the surrounding soil at the correct level for your soil conditions. You will want to pack this soil somewhat, so that it does not settle so much as to expose the rootball, then 2"-3" layer of mulch on the mound and surrounding soil. Are you going to plant this fall? That is when our Scarlet Oak was planted, though research I found on the web indicated that root growth will begin early the following spring. At least the tree will be in its new home when that happens. Be sure to check rootball moisture through out the winter, as you may need to water occasionally even in winter.

    Arktrees

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    Yes, I plan to plant this fall. Thanks for the well wish. And yes, I am afraid I may see a huge tangle at the root ball which has been the case with just about every potted plant I've purchased no matter the source.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I thought some fall pics were in order. Should have put my kid next to it for scale.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I am pleased with its fall color this year. It has been a good year for most things. Future generations will get a great chance to look up through its leaves as this tree is uphill from my house.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Normal lighting.

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    John - your 50" of growth seems to confirm what I and others have seen with oak seedlings...they crawl for a few years, then take off like a rocket. I think it has to do with the root system and stem caliper having to reach a certain point first, and there will be some variability among seedlings.

    I'd bet those other seedlings take off NEXT summer.

  • poaky1
    9 years ago

    Nice color peeps, I need to check on mine. It is (as mentioned before) in a isolated spot. It is likely turning red already.

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    Just a small update. I did plant my scarlet oak. The specimen I got was a good size - about 4'. A few of the leaves began to look like the ones you have above shortly after planting and then I lost all of my leaves in the span of about a week. I figure the transplant shock sent it to full dormancy a little bit earlier - at least that's what I am hoping for. I did plant it on a mound. It was a smaller mound than suggested because I didn't feel comfortable planting the entire root system above the existing soil line - that would be the only way I would have gotten 6''-8'' above the soil line. Mine is closer to 4''-5''.

    Thanks arktrees and for the other general advice. Unless I forget I will post an update in the Spring and i hope it is a very positive one.

  • arktrees
    9 years ago

    Sound to me like you did it right. Don't worry, though I know that can be hard until the spring flush. Planting in fall is IMHO the way to go for most species in the south, but can also be the hardest as they sit dormant all winter with no signs of life. The payoff comes the following summer when fall planted trees handle the demands of summer much better than spring planted trees. I not sure our BnB Scarlet would have survived the hell summer of 2011 had it not be fall planted. By the time the second hell summer in a row came around, it was in much much better shape.

    You and your tree will be fine.

    Arktrees

  • hairmetal4ever
    9 years ago

    How did the root system look, thepranksta?

  • Tha Pranksta
    9 years ago

    The root system looked really good from what I can see. I'm not sure if the nursery did any prep work before shipping. I would have taken pictures but it got dark outside really quickly and ruine any decent camera shots.

  • Tha Pranksta
    8 years ago

    Just a quick update, I see life! I have swollen buds now clearly visible on the tips of each branch. I might actually be able to grow an oak tree after all. :-)


  • jqpublic
    8 years ago

    Great to hear! Mine had a case of the worms/caterpillars two falls ago. Last year it barely sprouted as most of the leaves the year before were stripped clean before they went dormant and changed colors. Last year, I let it grow without pruning. Many of the branches died, but this spring things look very promising and health. I'll post a current pic of it in a couple weeks. Here is a pic of it during the infestation two years ago.


  • Tha Pranksta
    8 years ago

    Wow. That is an infestation indeed. Glad to hear it's bouncing back.


  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Oh wow. Those are some hungry catepillars.

  • hairmetal4ever
    8 years ago

    I hate those @&$@%{€'l caterpillars.


    Glad it's coming back.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Maybe I haven't been paying attention or maybe theybare different this year, but the buds on mine sure opened in with an interesting look this year. There is a good amount of red in there my phone is losing.


  • jqpublic
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Mine fully recovered from oak worms.


  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Jq, did you end up spraying or anything? Did the caterpillars just move on?

  • jqpublic
    8 years ago

    Oy, was trying to post a pic w/ that last post via my iPhone but no cigar. Let's see if it works on the desktop? Also, no I did not treat the tree in any way. The next fall, the tree didn't have caterpillars and this spring (2nd spring since caterpillars), it has rebounded nicely. I did remove some dead wood though.


  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    She sure has rebounded nicely.

    looking at mine tonight I noticed maybe a half dozen leaves which looked like some bug grabbed em and rolled them up and held them together with some sticky stuff maybe to lay eggs in. Had to happen over the last couple days.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Huh, loads them with the correct orientation now from the phone but not edited.

    Color this year is pretty good and uniform. Notice the decorations to deter the deer. One got a bit of a rub on it the other day so out comes the soap and fishing bells.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Guess you have to click the pics to get the right scale. :(

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Gosh, your kid is growing like a weed. :)

    Dax

  • Tha Pranksta
    7 years ago

    Hey guys,

    I hope I am not in trouble here. My oak has grown maybe a few inches since I planted it. My first bat of fall colors last year lasted only a couple of days which was disappointing. I know these trees can start very slowly but I noticed something a little alarming - the original trunk is not branching out and the plant is suckering. It seems that this is probably indicative of stress.


    My question is should I just pay more attention to it by keeping it hydrated and keeping the area weed free or is my tree in serious trouble at this point? I let myself get too busy to keep an eye on it but we didn't experience any significant droughts in my area.

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    7 years ago

    I ended up getting rid of mine, for some reason it kept getting stem canker.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Pranksta, how large a transplant did you have? Mine was one of the bigger trees I have done because it was what they had.

  • Tha Pranksta
    7 years ago

    Mine was around 3.5' to 4'.

  • poaky1
    7 years ago

    Tha Pranksta, maybe go driving around and see if any trees you like have acorns on the ground, especially Q.Alba. I have a few acorns, all you need to do is put the acorn on it's side on the ground, and in the spring you'll have a new tree.

  • Tha Pranksta
    7 years ago

    Hehe... I kinda wish I did that about 5 years ago but I didn't know better. Would have had better luck than trying to plant a tree now.

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