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kimcoco

Degroots Spire - single leader trees?

kimcoco
12 years ago

Except for the small ones I've seen, and those are maybe 4 feet tall at best and a teeny twig, I haven't seen any other larger, say 7 foot degroots spire with a single leader.

The pickings are slim. Should I hold off, or is it common for DS to have multiple leaders?

In terms of Arborvitae, I recall Ken saying in the past if it has multiple leaders, walk away....

Comments (29)

  • whaas_5a
    12 years ago

    Every single flipping Degroots I saw from 2' to 10' had multiple leaders...I searched mutiple places around here too when stock was in full effect a couple months ago.

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    What's wrong with the 4' ones? They'll grow and probably more quickly than the larger ones. A better form plus probably a better root system would be worth the extra few years to me.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    12 years ago

    this morning i posted a pic of my monster on the conifer forum ... link below ...

    after the second year.. they grow about a foot a year.. i dont know why you wouldnt buy a couple 2 footers.. and in the second year.. simply remove any extra leaders ...

    they grow every single second that the ground is not frozen .. they are weeds ...

    the thought that you need a 6 or 8 footer.. IN MY WORLD .. is bizarre ... [yeah i know my world is weird]

    buy small ..

    ken

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • kimcoco
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I thought they are slow growers?? Maybe 6 inches per year is what I read...I thought turtle slow.

    WTH? I'll check back here tomorrow. I talked to another nursery that has 7 footers. Whaas, where did you look? I've been to Minors - the stock they have out isn't looking good EXCEPT the container plants. I called Hawks they have only small specimens.

  • whaas_5a
    12 years ago

    Johnsons might have some.

    I was at Minors and all their arbs where in poor shape. The 'Spring Grove' specimens where the only nice plants there.

    Steins may have a few smaller ones (larger ones where no good). Flower Source also had some nice ones.

    I've heard they are slow growers as well but all the 6 footers I've seen at still pretty cheap so they must grow fast in sandy soils.

    Personally if you can find vigorous/full plants with a single leader I would opt for a smaller plant, otherwise wait until next spring. All garden centers I went to where loaded with these plants.

    I'm waiting for someone to stock 'Hetz Wintergreen'. Well not really...I just don't understand why no one in the area stocks them!

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    12 years ago

    This cultivar does tend to be multi-leadered. But the risk of snow load damage is much slighter than on other arborvitae selections because the branching is short and very dense. Typically it is the more or less vertical, upward sweeping branches of arbs like 'Samargd'or 'Techy' that catch the snow and then bend outward or out of shape.

    With all due respect to Ken, I have NO issue with multi-leadered arbs - single leader or multi-leader, most will need tying, wrapping or other winter attention to prevent snow damage. Much less of an issue with DeGroot's.

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    We don't have nearly as much snow here as we used to, but I still see MUCH more damage on multi-leader conifers than I do on single leader specimens of the same type. Even without snow, the multi-leader specimens sometimes have poorer form with noticeable separation between different sections of the trees.

    Years ago, when it used to snow here a lot, I've seen groups of same-type conifers with ALL the multi-leader specimens broken at ground level and splayed out onto the ground, while ALL the single leader specimens remained with no permanent issues.

    I really have no idea how 'Degroot's Spire' will handle snow load, but, in general, I think picking single leader stock is without a doubt worth the effort.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    12 years ago

    link says 6 to 12 .. and trust me.. it near 12 .. in sand.. in my zone.. once established ...

    we had the ice storm from hell this winter.. every siberian elm in the county exploded ...

    many ... many .. multi trunked arbs were slaughtered ... [and no damage on 50 GG's]

    otherwise ... i agree who cares ..

    there is just something about that once a decade storm .. .. in which you watched a prime specimen grow .. with delight... only to come out one morning and find it destroyed ..

    the great white north.. is definitely not the pacific north west ...

    ken

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    12 years ago

    pix 5, 6 and 17 and 18 etc

    Here is a link that might be useful: pix 5, 6 and 17 and 18 etc

  • kimcoco
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Ken, what year did you plant that tree, and at what size? How long did it take to reach the size it is today?

    NICE specimen. There's a house around here, I don't know if they are degroots but they have several mature specimen with really nice form and what appears to be single leader plants.

    Whaas, does Minors ever take you in the back to look at additional nursery stock, or do you just look at what's up front? I had always thought they kept more stock in back and moved it to the front as it sold. We have some friends that are REAL picky, and they usually have someone drive them to the back to look at other available stock. Or, is it that they save the best stock for landscape designers?

    When I was there, they had only 5 or 6 degroots in stock, and maybe one or two were iffy had I been desperate to purchase, but I chose to walk away. The centers of the multiple leaders had obvious browning, but I was told that is common on the interior. Others had complete browning on the shade side.

    I'm going to check out Johnsons today and see what they have. If they have single leader, I'll purchase. Otherwise, I'll head back to Minors and get the pencil container plants.

  • deltaohioz5
    12 years ago

    It takes a little longer for the nurseries to grow single leader arbs.

    Frank

    {{gwi:370651}}

  • kimcoco
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I didn't get over there today. Maybe Monday.

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    Frank, Can you expound on your idea that "It takes a little longer for the nurseries to grow single leader arbs"? Do you mean it takes more effort or a longer period of time?

  • whaas_5a
    12 years ago

    You bet, the majority of the stock I got this year was from the back before they put it out. I just go back there myself, lol.

    Check out the reviews of Degroots online...alot of people complaining about snow damage with multi-leader plants.

    brandon, they have to prune out growth so you don't attain as much height as quick.

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    Hmmm, I haven't noticed significant difference in same-age plant size (especially height) between single and multi-leader conifers.

  • deltaohioz5
    12 years ago

    It has been my experience that trimming does slow down the terminal growth.

    Frank

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    12 years ago

    it makes sense brandon.. that if at 2 feet.. you remove 1/2 of the canopy to remove a duplicate leader.. it will respond the following year with lesser growth ...

    but also.. i just presume that the profit margin is low.. volume is key .. and most nurserymen are not going to go thru 20,000 of stock plants and tenderly prune each one ...

    buy smallish.. and you can do it ...

    ken

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    Ken, if they waited until half of the canopy had to be removed from a 2' tree, they're probably doing it wrong. I think your second sentence/paragraph/thought is key. It's all about profit and untrained/apathetic/unsuspecting customers.

  • kimcoco
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Whaas, have you been to Johnson's before to price shop?

    Oh my goodness. Talk about highway robbery. I'm kicking myself.

    Thinking that their prices were comparable, I picked up two degroots spire, single leader, in 10 gal containers. They had larger B&B specimen for $252, but I wasn't willing to pay that hefty price.

    For the same size potted, albeit multiple leader degroots at Minors Garden Center, I could have saved $30 PER TREE. They were $39.99 at Minors, and $65 at Johnsons.

    I also purchased a flat of 32 pachysandra at Johnsons. Forgot to ask the price at check out, my husband paid the bill and we went on our merry way. Dumb me. For the same 32 flat of pachysandra I could have paid $20 less at Minors. $54 for a flat of 32 pachysandra???? Are you kidding me? I was so livid, at myself, on the drive home I could have kicked myself.

    I got ripped off $70 today, and it's all my fault.

    I was told that Johnson's staff works on commission, I can't believe the price hike is so outrageous. No wonder you have to stop at the front desk before you head into the nursery. I went in asking the staff for degroots spire, single leader trees, they showed me the large ones, then tried swaying me into purchasing Junipers. ???? I don't want Junipers. So, then they took me over to the smaller potted degroots. They were nice and very professional, however. I have no qualms with the staff.

    May as well leave your checkbook with them when you head in the door.

    Sorry for complaining, but these prices are ridiculous. I've been to Hawks, which is known for being on the pricier side, and they're tame compared to Johnsons. I'd be hesitant to shop there again. WOW.

  • kimcoco
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    One more thing - my husband got to talking to the girls and asked about their educational background. They both, or one at least, received a horticulture degree from UW.

    When I asked her about the tree growth rate between large vs. small, she said they are both going to grow at the same rate. She said large or small, degroots will grow only 6 inches per year. What do you have to say about that Ken (or any other tree "expert" on this forum)? LOL.

    You'll have to excuse my sarcasm. I'm still in shock.

  • whaas_5a
    12 years ago

    6" is for clay soil...you likely get 12" in sandy soil.

    I had a run in with Johnsons where they were just too arrogant to fix an issue. I no longer shop there and took my business elsewhere. I originally did a lot of business with them as I lived in the Falls and focused on harder to find plants. They typically have the best quality but usually for more common plants you can go elsewhere. They are ONLY good for tougher to find plants.

    Most of the younger staff has zero experience planting at their own homes. If you go in there looking for suggestions they are trained to push the higher volume, higher margins plants...ie their introductions. You need to know what your looking for. They aren't on commission.

    Minors is by far one of the best deals in town but they occasionally have poor quality plants. So you have to know what to look for.

    Steins is a MAJOR sleeper. If you go early, I mean early on a regular basis you'll find very limited stock of hard to find plants at good prices. I snag up several conifers at 25% off in April!

  • brandon7 TN_zone7
    12 years ago

    "When I asked her about the tree growth rate between large vs. small, she said they are both going to grow at the same rate. She said large or small, degroots will grow only 6 inches per year. What do you have to say about that Ken (or any other tree "expert" on this forum)? LOL."

    If the person that said that understood what you meant (initial growth rate of various sized nursery stock, assuming all other variables were similar and ANSI sized rootballs) and you understood the response, then the only real explanation is that they are obviously wrong. And really, even if all the caveats above aren't applicable, they are still wrong. ALL trees grow at different rates depending on conditions (such as soil differences, as whaas described).

    I'd bet that there were just some miscommunications, somewhere, with that answer, but ya never know. I've heard some real funny stuff from people that were supposed to be in the know. Kinda reminds me of the conifer my mom bought two years ago. When I saw it, I was confused and asked her why she planted it so close to her house. She said the experts at the nursery assured her it would only grow a couple of inches a year and could be easily maintained at a small size. I laughed and told her, "I can't wait until next year." Next year came, along with just over a foot of new growth.

  • gimberly sw ohio 6a
    9 years ago

    Both of my single-leadered Degroots grew over a foot this year. I put this one in the ground in late August 2013 and it has added 18 inches since! In my experience, arborvitae grow much faster if there's only one leader. AL

  • gimberly sw ohio 6a
    9 years ago

    Here it is now, 1 year later. AL

  • gimberly sw ohio 6a
    8 years ago

    Here it is now: +35 inches in the first 2 years. One of my favorite trees. AL

  • gimberly sw ohio 6a
    7 years ago

    Now at 8.5 feet - was 4 feet when planted 3 years ago. AL


  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    5 years ago

    Thanks gimberly for adding the ongoing photos of your DS over time. It is always useful to actual in-garden experience shared. i can’t see any indication of where you are, so I would love to have some location and soil information on your plant so I can compare with how it might grow for me.

  • gimberly sw ohio 6a
    5 years ago

    Thanks for your interest. I am in SW Ohio. 6a

    I have 40 arborvitae (21 different varieties) and 30 are spires. Here is what I have learned:

    -Buy small plants in spring.

    -Prune them down to 1 strong central leader.

    -Get them in the ground right away (or keep them in a shady spot - remember that small pots dry out really really quick). Many of my plants get moved to better locations, so don't feel pressure to make final location decisions right away.

    -Dig the hole large 2+ feet wide/ deep. I always add peat, sometimes sand. If you mix it well, this stuff will disappear into the soil nearly unnoticable.

    -Add mulch. I always add a circle of rocks around new plants so that I won't step on them.

    -Water deeply, then resist the urge to overwater them, but don't let them dry out.

    -During hot dry summer times, I water new plants 2x per week.

    -One year later (late winter) do some light pruning to focus energy on central leader. I also remove limbs from the bottom 10% of the plant. Repeat this for a few years.

    -No fertilizer needed. I usually water plants regularly for 3 years, and then only when things get really dry.

    -Every 2 or 3 winters, I will go through each plant and knock off the orange foliage and take out empty bird nests.


    I also have 30 chamaecyparis (23 different varieties) that do really well in my yard. Mostly cham. obtusa. I don't keep most of those as single leadered plants, but I do prune the heck out of them for the first few years, which I think is really important for getting adult plants with attractive shape and form.

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