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| I have a hypothetical question about the growth of tree saplings. I know that climate, moisture, soil, and the species of tree all affect the growth rate of trees. But what I am curious about is the height and spread of a 12 inch sapling compared to that of a 6 foot sapling of the same species and cultivar of tree after 5-6 years of growth. If these two trees were planted at the same time under the same conditions, will they be approximately the same size after 5-6 years of growth? Will they be roughly the same size after 20 years of growth?
The reason I am asking this is because I am planning to plant a shade tree in my front yard, and I am considering what size of tree to plant. Would I be wasting my money spending $100.00 on a 6 foot tree, when I could purchase a 2 foot tree for $20.00 if both of these trees would end up being the same size after 5-6 years of growth? Several months ago I spoke to the horticulture department of Arizona State University via e-mail about a couple of Chinese Pistache trees that are growing in their arboretum. They look exactly the same and are pretty much the same size. The horticulturist told me that one tree was 40 years old and the other tree was 60 years old. This got me thinking about the different sizes of tree saplings at the time of planting and how these trees would look compared to each other after so many years of growth. So, there is my question. Would I have the same size of tree after 5 years of growth regardless of whether I planted a 12 inch tree sapling or a 6 foot tree sapling of the same species? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Well, gut instinct tells me that, for most species, there won't be a significant difference at the 20 year mark. The slower it grows, the bigger a difference there will be. |
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| I will use nuttall oak as my example. I planted a 10'er fall of 2010. Next year it put on a little over 3' and was still growing in August. This year, it has already grown almost 3' and about to break bud for the third time this year (last year it flushed 4 times)! So in this instance, if I had started with a 12" baby instead of the 10' 4-5 year old tree, it would be noticeably smaller at 5-6 years and probably not so noticeable at 20 years. However, as you and Den have mentioned, it all depends on species, cultural conditions, and even vigor of each individual. Some (most) native trees don't grow quite as fast as my example and growth differences may be more or less noticeable depending on growth patters (dense pyramidal vs. open and rounded) John ps - I have a few (5-6 species with dupes) very young 1-2 year old trees planted and have noticed extremely different growth rates for all with most doing about 2' so far and still growing |
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- Posted by plantingman 6b (SC KS climate) (samnsarah620@yahoo.com) on Thu, Jun 21, 12 at 17:29
| That's what I was thinking too. I suppose if I wanted to really see a significant difference right away, I would have to plant a much larger tree, such as a 50 gallon tree. But I am not in a hurry for shade or a dramatic landscape impact, so I would think I could save myself the extra money and plant the smaller one. From what I have been told by tree growers, even the moderate to slower growing trees, such as the Bur Oak and Chinkapin Oak could be planted as 2' saplings and still have just as much growth as a 6' sapling after 5 years or so. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Jun 21, 12 at 17:48
| i would testify to a 3 footer.. versus a 10 footer.. with the 3 footer easily outgrowing the larger ... in 5 years.. been there.. done that.. seen that ... but if you go all the way down to a 12 incher.. i am thinking it is going to take a bit longer to catch up ... perhaps it can be analogized this way .. a 12 incher is a babe ... it is going to be 3 to 5 years.. before it puts out it 3 foot annual growth ... a 3 footer.. might be .. in term of growth potential .. more of a teenager ... time to get some real growth spurts ... and after one year of getting 'established' .. it might put out 3 feet of growth ... many trees.. can be mail ordered in the 3 to 4 foot range.. bare root .. and i would go with that size.. rather than the babe ... [its done all the time in fruit] i guess you are paying for a bit more maturity ... make any sense.. i am rushed to go make dinner ... ken |
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| Interesting Ken. So you are saying if I planted a 3' nuttall beside the 10' nuttall that already grew 3+' the first growing season and looking to make a push for close to 4' this year, the 3' would be larger than the 10' in 5 years? Could you please explain the math to me on that? After dinner is finished of course ;) John |
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| Hey. Each situation is different. I used to tell people, "That plant won't do good in your yard with the soil and exposure." Most of the time I was right. BUT, (maybe BUTT) once in a while the customer would come back and say that I was wrong, it grew just fine. The point is that every "fixed" horticultural rule can be broken (albeit somewhat rarely). "It didn't do that in MY yard!" With that said, I, too, would go with the smaller tree if you are looking at a 20 year period. If you have the money and want the instant effect, go for it and buy a bigger tree. If you have the time and want to keep the money, plant the 2' whip. I just did a previous post on this forum where I have a shingle oak I planted as 2' or so whip 8 years ago and have a 20' tree today. Tend to agree with ken. hortster |
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| plantingman, sorry, didn't see that this was your thread. You know about my 2' whip from the previous post. :) hortster |
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- Posted by plantingman 6b (SC KS climate) (samnsarah620@yahoo.com) on Thu, Jun 21, 12 at 23:28
| Yes, thank you, hortster. I was actually thinking about that post when I posted this one. Shooting Star Nursery, a Dave's Garden Watchdog Top 5, said that their 12" Chinkapin Oaks only grow 1 foot per year for the first few years, whereas Sunshine Nursery said that their Chinkapin Oaks grow fast like you testified too. The tree you just mentioned in your reply to this post, you said was a Shingle Oak. So did you plant a 2' Chinkapin whip and a 2' Shingle whip and have them both end up at 20' after 8 years in clay alkaline soil? That's very impressive growth. I think Sunshine Nursery has a very good source down there in OK. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 8:46
| let me put it another way.. i think jon's pink suit is fuzzin his head and i am using extreme examples to make a point jon.. not really discussing a specifc tree .. in the extreme .. a 2 inch calip .. 12 foot tree.. versus an acorn .. it will take decades for the acorn to catch up ... the first year.. 6 inches.. the second year.. maybe to 12 inches.. the third year.. maybe it will double to 18 to 24 inches.. in infancy.. trees do NOT grow at the expected annual growth rate ... so his premise was whether a 12 incher will start growing at 3 feet per year.. and i seriously question that will happen.. for a couple years .. but i have moved cherry and oak in my yard ... in the 6 foot range.. that in the second season after the move ... have nearly gotten to their proper annual growth rate ... so if it were me.. i would spend a bit extra.. to buy outside of infancy ... and try to get into the 3 to 4 foot range at a min .. i doubt this is much clearer .. but at least its redundant.. lol .. ken |
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| I do see I left out the fact that the 10' tree I used in my example was probably 0.5-1" caliper in a 5 gallon pot and $20 at Lowes. It was not some enormous transplant that lost a bunch of roots being dug. This may bring a little clarity to the situation. I think $20 for 10' that grows 3+' the first year is a good.. nay great deal personally. I mean I guess I could have mail ordered a 3-5' for about the same money and it may have come bare root. Potted would make the shipping alone more than the $20 I paid at the store for the plant. I have to say, Ken, I have been very surprised with some seedlings I planted this year of roughleaf dogwood, washington hawthorn, and native crabapple. They were all in the 1' range and have already more than doubled in height and actually have good branching (except for that gnarly looking hawthorn). Planted some seedling smoketrees, too and one is going gangbusters while the other was content just putting out one set of leaves and stopping. All of these were bought from Pine Ridge Gardens. I highly recommend them. I bought a yellowwood and southern catalpa from shootingstar last year but the wet spring we had killed them before they could get going. I planted them both dormant but I suspect the catalpa was DOA since it never even had a bud sell. I also got a yellowwood from PRG but it never made to bud break. It was still in leaf when I planted it last fall. Back on topic though, as I have mentioned in other topics, I have had great success with whips, too (like Ken and hortster and many others on this forum). I planted cottonwood, sycamore, and live oak as branchless whips in late spring 2010 in the 2-3' range. Now the cottonwood is around 15' and growing, the sycamore is around 10' and growing, and the live oak is around 5.5' tall but around 6' wide. Certainly nothing wrong with bare root whips! If you have a good local source for the tree you want, GO FOR IT! That's about as good as it gets for selecting a tree with locally adapted genetics. John ps - here is pic of the sycamore with peeley bark already! And the leaves on top are 8-10" wide! I love it!!
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| My experiience backs up Ken's assertion. Planted both 8' and 4' Cedar Elms at same time. 4 years later the 4' tree is 15'+ high, the 8' tree is now 9'. Planted an 18" CE tree 2 years ago(took 1 1/2 yrs to get it to this height from a seed). It is now 48" tall. Assume it will now grow at a rate similar to the potted CE from 4 yrs ago. Have had similar experience with other trees. My experieince indicates the fastest growth occurs using ~2 1/2'-4' trees than any other size. |
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| If I planted an 8' cedar elm that was only 1' taller 4 years later, I would consider other factors possibly below ground that could be responsible for lack of vigor. Again, not arguing that 2-4' trees are not the best size, I have just had good success up to 10'. John |
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| Plantingman, that was a brain f..., meant to say chinkapin. My shingle oak was planted as a 8-9', 1-1/2" caliper tree maybe 16 or 17 years ago and is now 35' tall plus or minus. But, I did plant a 2' shantung maple from the same nursery a year before the oak. Of course, it is a smaller tree at maturity than the oak, but it is now 5" caliper and around 18' tall. I think there is a lot to be said for planting much smaller trees. hortster |
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- Posted by plantingman 6b (SC KS climate) (samnsarah620@yahoo.com) on Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 14:05
| Thank you Scotjute, Hortster, Ken, Jon and everyone else too. This is good information. So I can safely conclude that unless you are going to pay $500.00 and buy the tree with the 5" caliper from the nursery, it is my best bet to just stick with the 3-4' tree. It kind of makes you wonder why nurseries even carry the 6-7' trees? My local nursery gets these 6-7' trees in ALL the time with 1/2" calipers and charge $75.00 a piece for them. It seems like kind of a rip off, but I guess when you're the only nursery in the area for at least 60 miles you can do that. |
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- Posted by cearbhaill Zone 6b Eastern KY (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 21:03
| "Shooting Star Nursery, a Dave's Garden Watchdog Top 5, said that their 12" Chinkapin Oaks only grow 1 foot per year for the first few years" Not that you said you are buying from them but having done so myself I would urge you strongly to verify the size of the plants you would be receiving. |
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- Posted by plantingman 6b (SC KS climate) (samnsarah620@yahoo.com) on Sat, Jun 23, 12 at 14:34
| cearbhaill, yes I saw your review. I called Shooting Star Nursery and asked about the size of their plants. They said that they are no more than 12" tall. Based on what others have said about the growth rate of 12" trees as compared to 2-4' trees, I would definitely purchase from another company. |
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