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| I've been browsing the topics. I used to be able to plant trees ( i don't know timing) with no problems.. .well, girdled roots down the road later.
I read a lot about the rootbound issues, etc. "nurserymen" have different opinions regarding the need to detangle. Some, when I tried to rootprune or just more detangle, the tree is SUFFERING horribly. Some online sources I'll never order from again sent such rootbound plants that nothing saved, and some virtually yelled at me for trying to untangle roots (esp. small plants) as that damage introduces bacteria which leads to blah, blah... lots thousands of dollars. Some say have the nursery examine the roots prior to your buying, my 2 nurseries (supposedly good, only ones close enough for me to drive to) would never do that... one gets suspicious if I'm just trying to check out the condition of the plant without TOUCHING the pot.... One acts like I'm nuts, and when I purchased an expensive ornamental spruce that was potted too deep and had a lot of black roots, upon calling, he was nonchalant, said the tree looked fine... sure, the top... I got a green japanese maple from them too with similar issues... this one i'm unsucessfully trying to battle what is root rot...Lots more money lost. Who actually asks nurserys to inspect trees prior to buying? Who asks them to rootprune if needed, or untangle... Do any actually do this? Why don't nurseries guarantee plants anymore, not really- they make excuses....this is supposedly higher end places? Even shrubs I've had issues with. I don't think it's me, I DONT over/underwater,soil is prepped, proper air, depth, etc prior. This year that what I've attempted to plant is mostly suffering, trees ... well, borers are horrible, never had issues before... getting fringe tree, too tired to know much what to do... PAPERBARK maple, if best transplanted when dormant, why the HECK don't these nurserys get them in until June? Ditto with a lot of other trees?? Paperbarks suffering, branch dieback, all that... If it dies, I'll be completely devested... went near bankrupt (negative bank balance) and lost most trees (Nyssas, etc).. only box stores seem to offer guarantee, unless I'm just not driving long enough to right nursery (now with next to no money). Fall is for planting? If they get a tree in now and tend to sell out, how many of you even attempt to buy and just keep in it's original container and water appropriately until fall? I'm always wanting to pot it up (means root issues) and then wait till fall... or they say, GET IT IN GROUND immediately. I read how to plant a tree/shrub. Copiously. My yard this year is infested with awful bugs (major disruption in landscaping) but that's not accounting for all these issues... The amount of money I lost on trees this year sickens me, abut I was obsessed and not thinking clearly... sickens me horribly.. as now I have dirt and no money... An arborist was by months ago, most of my landscape was lost to root rot.. horrible drainage issues from the neighborhood, horrible place if you want to garden. I ammended the soil for months, removed a dumpster of crap... He said I can plant anything anywhere. Then I read about (the obsessives?) who claim once that fungi spores are rampant in the soil, even with improved drainage and trees tolerant to those sites, they can still be infected if stressed (i.e new, young, etc)... I wonder WHERE I can plant anything then, but he said anywhere.. (situation based on trees needs)... I'm scared to plant in soil, greatly ammended and on Mounds, that had many trees die.. and I have a limited area now in which to plant (if the money was there)... A dogwood was cut down (old age, getting root rot), stump remains as I haven't the money to grind. Is it safe to plant somewhat near that stump? I see many do plant near stumps, but I don't want it.. rotting and giving off... something...to any nearby. Arborist said I worry too much, that they routinely yank out or cut down trees and plant over roots and all... I question him.. I have no money left to spare...Is he right? EVERYONE tells you something differently, people you're to trust... IE NO evergreen should be used as windbreak (that's appropriate for me)... many can be used... etc etc. I planted things too high so now I have the issue of how to contain the soil of the mounds.. if they live... I have a huge humungous hill of mud (trying to get grass to grow on it, in tears today) ..so tired... yards a mess and I can't think or understand why now I lost my gardening skills... yanking out perennials in fury as they are too much work, need help..I know it's supposed to be fun and a long term ongoing experience. I've been ill and won't be around 10 years from now, if that. I've been ill and have no help, but still need.. to be out there..
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Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Mon, Jun 11, 12 at 22:36
| Well Greyand, I can at least begin untangling things. Think basics: Decent soil, adequate drainage (Usually most places in most yards have adequate drainage), zone-appropriate species, attention to soil moisture in the early going, like it sounds like you've done. Nurseries are just now starting to come to grips with root issues, such that I know extremely well established outfits that are experimenting with new containment methods today. Some here basically "unpot" containerized stock before planting. I've personally planted thousands of plants without going to that particular effort. Tangled, circling roots-indeed a problem. Plant only in spring and fall? I have emphatically explained right here on this board that that really only applies to dormant, bare-root stock. The very purpose behind both balled and burlapped, and containerized stock is to extend the planting season right through summer. Pay attention to water needs whenever it is that you plant, so that which is planted in hot weather will of course take more care in assuring this critical parameter is met. No conifers for windbreaks? Don't get that one at all. Conifers are at the top of the list for such use over the vast majority of the N. Temperate Zone, which is a big area! Perennials........yeah, they ultimately can become much work to keep up with. Not much more to be said there. Planting near old stumps and over old root systems? Nature does this all the time, as a matter of course. Are there specific situations where this would be unadvised? Yes, if for example, verticillium wilt is present in the soil and you are planning to plant a susceptible species. Other wise, no, no contraindication. Ima stop there. I'm thinking more commentary will show up. +oM |
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| My initial response... is that you are worrying too much and putting far too much effort into this. |
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| My initial response ... is that you should forget about planting trees and take up kniting. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 7:51
| all trees.. shrubs.. conifers.. should be planted .. IN DORMANCY ... wrap yourself around this.. JUST BECAUSE YOU BUY IT... does NOT mean its time to plant it ... hold plants over in bright shade.. in the pot.. until PROPER PLANTING TIME ... link below to a planting GUIDE ... EVERY TOPIC THERE IS IMPERATIVE ... no skipping the ones you dont think are important ... ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
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- Posted by toronado3800 Z6 St. Louis (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 9:23
| Your nursery does not get paperbark maples until summer because they do not grow them there. That makes them a retail outlet. Nursery implies plants in the ground growing. Good luck. Don't let things stress you out. Transplanting is a percentage game. Summer means lower percentage. New construction lower percentage. Dormant higher percentage. Nyssa sylvatica lower percentage. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny none (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 12:06
| Isn't the whole point of a wind-break to work year round? Hence the evergreens. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny none (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 12:12
| Another important thing is planting trees appropriate for the site. We can grow sugar maples, oaks, and beeches with no problems around here, because they are well-adapted to our conditions (We are in the heart of the beech-maple forest). If you select the right plants, they will do well. I think most of the time, we just insist on trying to grow things that don't grow naturally around our areas (says the guy trying to grow Yellow Birch and a bunch of other non-local trees). |
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| I'd say join a garden club. You will be among people who successfully garden in your area and will help you out with good tips....and maybe a few plants! (Beware of the spreaders) Mike |
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- Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 14:53
| Couple of posts jumped out at me as being particularly accurate and having good advice :-) First was wisconsitom's, which is dead on the money. Everything he said is golden!! Second is Mike's (Botann) - an association with local fellow gardeners is an excellent source of information that is valid to your area. Plus, they can offer moral support and may even some physical support. Many local garden clubs in my area have work parties, where they visit and help out in various members gardens on a rotating basis. Depending on location, there may be a preferred or recommended planting time but that doesn't mean you are limited to those times. You can plant hardy plants at any time the soil is workable. The entire landscape industry would be kaput if during dormancy was the only time they could plant! Sheesh!! That is often the least favorable time to plant in my area as it is also the rainy season and the soil is frequently too wet to work. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 17:24
| First off, TOM, THANK YOU.... it's invaluable. I know I'm long and rambling... you answered SO MANY questions...So your saying you planted thousands of things without "manipulating" whatever rootball was there and things were okay?? ALSO, thanks about the stump, now I can get a shade tree, with money... ANYTHING there.. Mike, I would but the only possible consistent way I have of getting out right now is online... yes, if I'm at local nursery I'll talk to people avidly. Garden club joining has been something I've wanted at times for years, when I can.. Gardengal, You are so right...thanks Oh, as for the evergreens, blue spruces around here are too routinely attacked by things at young age.. I can try norway again, hollies need wind protection I've been told countlessly, large Arborvitaes (I've only tried americans) I hate due to deer, various disease issues.. snow breakage, I'm not sure... Whatever it is can't be too massive, like some use cedars (disease prone)... Junipers I've tried a lot and too many disease issues at least with the varieties I've tried... I do have oriental spruce that the nursery man says needs wind protection, it's small anyway, a weeper. I'm sure I'm forgetting some but I've tired you guys enough.. thanks.. |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 18:04
| Glad to be of service, Grey! What I said re: manipulating rootballs was directed at the practice, adhered to by some members here, of rinsing or otherwise removing all potting medium from potting stock before planting. IMO, that's taking things farther than is necessary. But......there are times when the root systems in potted stock needs considerable corrective action-not to enable the plant to survive the first year, but to allow it to thrive for decades hence. This pertains primarily to circling roots or other malformations likely to lead to a girdling root situation. This class of problems in no way affects the immediate survival of the plant. The problems so caused manifest some time down the road, as the now larger roots start to impinge on one another, or against the main trunk itself. +oM |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny none (My Page) on Tue, Jun 12, 12 at 18:15
| Sorry if I came off as sounding a bit crass! If you are looking for decent windbreak trees, I would try white pine and norway spruce. White pine does really well, even in our hard Clay soil (which we seem to have an overabundance of here), growing 3 feet a year when young. Norway spruce grows almost as fast. By the way, I've planted things every single month of the growing season (February through November), and most things seem to do well. We're in a drought right now, so I'm having to water constantly. Anyways, good luck with your plantings! Hope you can get a windbreak going! It takes about 5 years for potted evergreens to come into their own. The white pines around our house have been in the ground 35 years, and they are nearly 2 feet in diameter. |
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| Your nursery experience - It sounds like you have been dealing with some very unprofessional "professionals". If a nursery won't let you examine their products, assume they are trying to hide something! If they act like you are nuts, it may be that they are afraid you'll discover they aren't as knowledgeable as some consider them to be or that you'll discover that their product is not up to par. Nursery guarantees - There's more to this than most people realize. Keep in mind that the guarantees are more about producing attractive financial offers than backing up a product. Guarantees don't make healthy plants grow any better, but they may make buying less stressful. Generally, good nurseries will provide good guarantees, but not always. The more gimmicky the guarantees are, the more that raises a red flag for me. If a nursery won't stand behind a guarantee it's because they either think you did something wrong (voided the agreement) OR they are disreputable scum that you shouldn't do business with. You'll have to be the one to determine which category your nurseries fall into. How to plant a tree - Ken already posted the link, but to reemphasize, I'll repost it below. I think you'll find the information very dependable and, hopefully, helpful. Time to plant - Most (maybe not 100%, but close) of the problem with planting things in the summer is related to the history of the plant (when it was dug, its health, its root-structure issues that require addressing, etc), not just to the timing of planting. A healthy tree with a good root structure (not pot bound, without girdling roots, sufficiently large root system, etc) can thrive even if planted in the middle of summer. I would almost never recommend buying things with the intention of holding them over through summer before planting; doing so is like self-flagellation, not to mention how problematic it can be for your plants. Amending the soil - I didn't follow some of what you said in your original post about this topic. Generally, amending the soil when planting trees is not a good idea. Amending poor soil most often makes for an even worse situation (filling a bathtub with compost doesn't help drainage). |
Here is a link that might be useful: Planting a Tree or Shrub
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| Not sure what grows well in your area, so I'll just throw out some ideas and you can check & see what does & doesn't grow well there. It's my understanding your planting area tends to be pretty water saturated a substantial portion of the time, which can be aggravating when it seems nearly every plant except cacti calls for 'moist, well drained' in the soil needed description. Swamp White Oak, Nuttall Oak and Blackgum (which you've tried, & I presume might again) are tolerant trees that might do well there. For a shrub, some of the shrub forms of dogwood (e.g.: variegated European dogwood) might be nice. An idea that's come up before, I think, and might be worthwhile at least for a small to medium tree, is to make a berm & plant it on that. For example, using landscape timbers, create a raised soil be 4 to 6 inches higher than the land grade, & plant the tree so the root flare is at the top of that raised soil level. The idea is to provide at least some of the root system some degree of drainage. I don't know how well this works, but would be interested to hear from any who've tried it. I'm accustomed to container stock having the root flare buried under an extra 2 to 4 inches of dirt, & some circling roots, which I cut. I also rough up the exterior of the potted root ball; I want those roots growing out, not around. I've about given up on expecting healthy root systems in purchased trees, and assume any I buy will 'need work.' Even bought a tree grown in a 'Smart Pot.' Uh, yeah. Not a cure-all, that. What you can do with a summer-bought Paperbark maple is put the pot in the ground but leave it in the container till it's dormant in the Fall, then unpot, fix the rootball & plant in a suitable location. That way you don't traumatize the plant till it's dormant anyway, without the heat stress of summer. Richard. |
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| Grey, so sorry to hear about your trials and tribulations with planting trees and shrubs in your yard! I don't have much to add to the advice above, just wanted to say it sounds like you love trees, and even though you are older and may not see your plantings at their "mature" stage, as Thomas Jefferson said: "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." I have a couple comments - re: the roots of your dogwood. Every garden bed in my yard (and I have lots of gardens) grow amongst the roots and stumps of prior trees. This was a heavily overgrown lot, and 10 years later and lots of treework (by both the previous owner and myself), it's now an open woodland. I used to dig out the roots but now I don't bother unless they come out easy. I just plant around them. My theory is that eventually, the rotting roots and stumps will provide organic matter and even help with moisture retention of the soil. I am doing some experimenting with rotting out the stumps with piles of organic matter. Also, while you are in the process of removing perennials, consider selling them on Craigslist, so you can recover a little money to buy your trees. People will happily come over and pay you for them if they are desirable! And they will even dig them up, if you aren't able, and the price is right. |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Thu, Jun 14, 12 at 17:20
| Again, THANKS... now even more info in my head. (smile)... One final question, I have left a couple in pots I don't care about... the one question is I still have a larger Contorted Filber (Red- not that that matters)... I know when I got it the "Tree expert" as they call him at the "garden center"-voted highly, the place.. I asked him about root pruning as I know it was overwintered there from last year.. looking healthy as can be, but... I said, "he's been in that pot awhile", I voiced concerns. The boy claimed, assured I didn't realy need to do anything but plop it in a hole. I mentioned the losses long term from girdled roots. Again, he claimed.. a long speech that I lost track of. He said Biotone would help a lot, sucker that I was bought some.... IF IT DOESN'T WORK, let me know please and I'll return it..anyone who knows of it.. he recommended a root stimulator and that was his recommendation. So, I eyed the tree today, after reading the posts, it's not "technically" summer and I feel bad for that poor guy in that pot. I like the thoughts of burying the pot till dormant. I worry b/c some times brutal weather can cause late planted plants to die too. This time there is a supposed guarantee through Nov. on this as long as planted correctly, etc... which my god, it will be... BUT, being that I'll even have to cut it out of it's pot whenever it's truely planted, I can assure you there's some root issues. Opinions? Plant pot, wait? I thought I could try the filbert (then in autumn move the hydrangea tree) with the knowledge there is a supposed guarantee (be it true?)...Or wait... Problem is, physically my health isn't good and each month for awhile it's worse... I'm not old. That's what I meant about not around for that long. I can't predict how I'll be in fall.... in terms of planting, whatever... I'm young, not old. Brain's getting worse too. Opinions? Plant the pot? plant the plant? I'm home mostly 24/7 so watering isn't an issue, but there's the always too much factor or just STRESS Factor to the plant....I'll wait to hear from some of you. thanks again!!!! Amy |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny none (My Page) on Thu, Jun 14, 12 at 21:22
| Honestly, the best thing to do would probably be to plant, water and mulch it. Unless you have a shady, cool location you can keep pots in the summer, it's unwise to keep plants in a pot all summer long. If you think root rot is bad, try looking at a plant that's been baking all summer long in a black pot! By the way, what exactly is your soil type? I agree that raised beds are probably the best thing to do if your soil is really that bad. We have fairly heavy clay in most spots (Except for bottomland loams), and phytopthora is often an issue. However, it seems that even with the fungus in the soil, improved drainage helps immensly - Basically, there isn't many plants that can handle their roots soaked constantly in water. Unfortunately, drain tiling is likely unfeasable for you - Even shoveling the soil into a berm would help! |
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- Posted by greyandamy (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 11:13
| Thanks! Okay, all beds are raised now and as I said before, I ammended, that meant removing tons of stone, etc (TONS), adding compost, deep tilling, huge clay clods, now the soil is extremely nice... Thanks... on to next tree topics from others.. take care, |
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| I am in SW Pa too. There aren't many knowledgeable nurseries around me either. Evergreens that are hardy are what I think of when " windbreak " is mentioned in our climate in Pa. What I do when in question ( other than this forum ) is websearch the plant you are interested in. The roots need detangled and if they don't agree, they are "nuts". Smaller plants are easier to establish ( and cheaper ) than big ones. You probably know the right answers to some of your questions, if you gardened okay before, you should be able to still ( if you have no memory impairment ) the people at the nurseries may be just there for the paycheck and don't care about having the capacity to help with info. The internet can help you alot if you don't want to join a club. The forums on Gardenweb and websearches can help alot. The Pa forum is not very active, but plant specific forums help. And of course try to relax, just try to make better decisions by learning more about the plants with websearches. If you can plant smaller plants. It's better than a large dead one eventually. |
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- Posted by jimbobfeeny 5a IN (My Page) on Tue, Jun 19, 12 at 7:31
| And no matter what, if you have done gardening a certain way and it has worked for you, don't let anyone tell you that you should be doing it this way because it is better, etc. |
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