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| I have a ~ 4 to 5 year old red oak that has small holes in the leaves of the last 8 inches of most of the branches. I water often and I have the base mulched to avoid competition with the grass. I also spray for bugs average once every 3 weeks. What are the holes? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 7:42
| I also spray for bugs average once every 3 weeks. ==>> what are you spraying with ... sorry.. but you are a threat to the ecology of the earth .. please put down the sprays.. and step away .. its a deciduous tree.. and it is cosmetic damage.. when it loses 50% of its leaf mass.. then MAYBE!!!!! a spray of some kind MIGHT be necessary .. crimminey.. spraying an oak every 3 weeks.. ken |
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- Posted by sightunseen (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 8:36
| Hi. I spray with Hi-Yield livestock insect (http://www.fertilome.com/product.aspx?pid=517bc95b-78b0-4c5c-805e-d88 ee9636992). I use it mainly for my peaches and other fruit trees. I guess I only spray the oak because I usually have some left over from the fruit trees and have thought the holes might be a sign of insect attack. However, the spray doesn't seem to have made any difference so I don't know what the cause is. I highly value my oaks and if I thought it was due to insects, I'd spray if they were doing damage to only 1% of the leaves. I've seen what happens to trees when bugs get out of control, so I'd like to nip it in the bud. Do you have any idea what it might be? |
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| "I highly value my oaks and if I thought it was due to insects, I'd spray if they were doing damage to only 1% of the leaves." Given that oaks are host to 500+ species of butterflies and moths, I would suggest looking into a different type of tree -- maybe one of the plastic variety. The inflatable palm/artificial turf combo is also a good look and requires a lot less maintenance for that whole devoid-of-life landscape you're after. |
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| The holes are probably from a outbreak of moths this past spring. Your just wasting your spray at this point. Damage done. Otherwise the color of the leaves look good. |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 17:30
| It just might be "tatters", the result of a freeze during the time when leaves were first expanding this spring. That condition can look a lot like insect damage. But if it is insects, like Ken has already said, not a big deal. It is completely the norm for tree leaves to look raggedy and chewed up by mid-summer, a little earlier this year in many parts of the country, due to the fast warmup. Now to add to the chorus, please NEVER spray plants without a full understanding of what you are targeting. Blanket "preventative" sprayings are very much a thing of old, out of date tree and yard care. Get with an IPM program of some kind, learn about the real threats to your plants, and relax, because you'll probably be doing a lot less spraying. Such blind spraying of pest control products is much more likely to cause problems than to remedy them. For just one example, people that get their yard routinely sprayed "for bugs" almost invariably end up with mite problems on everything that is susceptible to mites. They are killing off all the natural predators, leaving an unbalanced environment, which some organism, in this case mites, will rush in to fill. Most of the "bugs" that you ever encounter are doing neither you nor your plants any harm. People really need to move away from thinking that the presence of insects, even the presence of insect damage, is a sign that action must be taken. +oM |
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- Posted by sightunseen (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 17:59
| +oM (and dricha), I appreciate your thoughtful response. I was beginning to think I had wasted my time on this forum, but you convinced me otherwise. Thank you. Micah |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 18:08
| Well, +om, I wonder if I did any damage today then. I noticed today that on two of my European Hornbeam trees several leaves look like skeletons of what they once were. I noticed a few beautiful bugs, bright green, gorgeous. Came inside, looked online and sure enough I have Japanese Beetles. I went into town and got a Japenese Beetle spray, hooked it up to the hose, and sprayed the trees down. I've never used a pesticide in my entire life. Kill flies with a swatter, spiders with a shoe, and that's as far as it goes. I was concerned because the leaves were decimated. I read online if the leaves are damaged like that too late in the season for them to regrow that it could seriously affect the tree. So that is what I went on. The woman at the register said hundreds of people have been in buying sprays for the Japense Beetles. I don't want to screw up any ecological system but I also don't want my leaves skeletonized and the trees' health at stake. Many of them have already grown a foot or more this year What's the middle ground here?
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 18:35
| dont worry about the holes its just a normal things for oak trees. There are over 500 species of moth and butterfly that use oak trees as a host plant. If you kill those guys then you are interfering with the food chain as many song birds prey on those catipillars. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 19:57
| So much for spraying Japanese Beetle Spray. Didn't work. The beetles are right back on them. |
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| Kill the bugs, starve the birds! Japanese beetles overwinter as grubs in lawns (they feed on the roots). Want to have fewer beetles? Treat the grubs in the lawn with milky spore or reduce the amount of grass you have. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 21:37
| My husband is going out tonight to get Sevin Dust to kill the Japanese beetles. The spray we bought did no good at all. We have to protect our investment. |
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| Protect your investment? Do you think the Japanese beetles will actually kill the trees? |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Mon, Jul 9, 12 at 22:21
| OK....Jap. Beetles: Simply put, my condolences. Not just for your oak, but for any other of hundreds of species of plants you may have that these bastards feed on. We're just starting to see them move in around these parts, and I dread what this is going to do to the enjoyment of gardening generally. You see, while milky spore disease will indeed kill a few grub-stage JB's in your lawn, the truth is, once they move in, you're stuck with them. Having said that, I do prefer this biological approach to attempt to reduce their numbers to the broad-spectrum Sevin insecticide. That stuff will kill all sorts of bugs that never hurt anybody! I really don't know what else to tell you at this point. I'm still not certain that JB put those holes in your oak leaves. But if they did, they're going to do it again and again. You can try to eradicate for years on end with the Sevin, but these strong flyers will just come right back to your property. The grubs are especially fond of well irrigated turf. So there's one partial solution-allow your lawn to go dry and brown! May not be hard to come up with that in the summer we're having! +oM |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Tue, Jul 10, 12 at 10:39
| Tom, I'm the one who spoke about the Japanese beetles. They are on my trees, my European Hornbeam, not the OP's Oak tree. We are definitely going to put down Sevin this fall into the soil to kill the grubs. We saw tons of grubs this year but didnt realize they grew into Japanese Beetles. |
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| And you do realize that the Sevin will kill lots of beneficial insects as well? You could well upset the balance of good and bad in your yard with such an approach. Please do some more research on what you plan to do. There are many grubs in the soil - not all of them are japanese beetles, but if you find them under turf grass and they are smallish, it is likely they are. |
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| A word on Japanese Beetles from someone that has had them for years. I can only speak for the events that have occurred in our yard, and make no predictions of the future. When we moved into our house the very next summer OMG at the Japanese beetles. They seemed to eat most everything, even plants they supposedly left alone after they began to run out of food. I was thinking at the time, "HOLY &^%&!!! Hope it doesn't stay like this!". Ive never seen so many of one type of insect in my life. MASSES stripping plants bare. We gave in and used Sevin in as targeted way possible, and we also applied LOTS of Milky Spore. We knew the MS would have little overall dent, but wanted to at least introduce the organism to the area. Next year, JB are back, but in slightly fewer numbers. Have to pull out the Sevin again, using as little as possible, and as targeted as possible. Next year they are back again, but fewer in numbers again. Repeat for two more years that brings us to today. They are again present this year (and EARLY) but seemed to have mostly run their course. Here's the thing, there was a tiny fraction of the original number. Mostly minor damage to the favorite plants, while several of our plants that originally were attacked, have not needed any treatment for 2-3 years. My significant other treated her roses, but that was by far the most damage. So what happened? Probable several things. The weather the last three years have not helped them. Extreme wet and cold, and extreme dry and hot. This no doubt has taken a toll on their numbers. BUT, their numbers were decreasing before that as well. That is likely because our local wildlife (insect, avian, etc.) learned to utilize them as prey. I even read a few weeks ago about at soil fungus found around the world that has just been shown to prey on insect larvae/pupae and feeding then acquired nitrogen from the insects to the plants they were symbiotic with. The researchers demonstrate that 25% of the nitrogen in the plants originated in the grubs. I bring this up, because you can bet there are variants in the population of this fungus that can attack JB, and they will reproduce on a rich diet of JB grubs. The point of of this is to demonstrate that in many cases, and invader such as JB are at their worst at the start, and then the local flora and fauna have some ability to adjust to them. IN the case of JB, this seems to be true as long as the ecosystem is in reasonable good condition. I'm sure my MS application had little effect, but wholesale application of pesticides probable does far more damage than good. We did use Sevin (carbryl), but I choose it for a number of reasons. It is effective, it does not persist in healthy soil, low toxicity to mammals and birds,and has been around for 50 years and EXTENSIVELY studied. Many of the newer pesticides, and soil treatment pesticides take a year or more for 50% of it to break down. DON"T use any more than you have to, and try to spry only the JB, or in the case of newly planted trees, only the newly planted trees. USE SPARINGLY. Then let nature reduce the problem over time. Lastly, I did some reading on JB, and in areas where they have long been present, they typical are a relatively minor problem. They were originally discover in New Jersey in the early 1920's if I remember correctly. Lets hope the Emerald Ash Borer ultimately goes the same way. Arktrees |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Tue, Jul 10, 12 at 17:39
| OK, right answer, wrong poster. Look, do as thou wilt, but Jap. beetle adults are strong flyers. Spread a bunch of toxic stuff around your yard if it makes you feel better, but you simply will not be stopping the scourge that is Japanese beetles. +oM |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Wed, Jul 11, 12 at 18:58
| Ark, you and I must have been simul-posting. Didn't see your excellent commentary until just now. This reminds me.... a lot....of our experiences with gypsy moth. First big wave was indeed horrendous, with each successive one becoming less and less of a big deal. +oM |
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| Tom, Glad to see that you have seen similar results with other pests. To my knowledge we have not experience the Gypsy Moth in any real numbers in my area, and from reading the accounts, I am glad we have not. Luckily, researcher were able to find a GM pathogen to speed along the integration into the naive environment. IMHO, something that is frequently missed by most people, and people on this board, is that most of the time you will not ever be able to eliminate invasive's, instead your true goal has to be mitigating their excessive effects, and integrating them into the existing ecosystem in a non-destructive form. Mimosa trees are a local example. Grew up with them, never realizing they were not native. They come up most everywhere. BUT, they have so many issues, that they never really caused a problem that I saw. There are no areas where there are only Mimosa, and anywhere there are reasonable intact forest you don't find them at all. At the other end you find Tree of Heaven, that is not being controlled by anything at this time. Those certainly need work on control. Lastly, I went and found the article on the killer soil fungus (see link below). Hope you enjoy. Arktrees |
Here is a link that might be useful: Murderous fungi feed their insect victims to plants
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 12, 12 at 11:35
| Arktrees, Thank you so much for your post on the Japanese Beetles. I may not be able to stop the JB's beetles from invading our area, but I can stop them from attacking our trees. The Sevin powder is working! There hasn't been one JB on our trees since we put the Sevin on. At this rate I can live with just using the powder for a few weeks out of each year and not put anything into the soil. I may look into the Milky Spore though. In any event, I appreciate the time you took in sharing your experience with the JB and what worked for you. That was really nice of you. |
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| lovemytrees, Glad you found it useful to you. Most of the information you find about JB, doesn't take in the full picture. Often, the goal of such information is to sell you something to put on your lawn. Conversely, often the goal is to terrorize you into doing nothing. The reality lie in between. One thing I did not make clear in my original post was that by using "spot" application, many more beneficial insects will be spared. As for Milky Spore, we happened to catch Lowe's discontinuing the 20 pound bar of MS. So I got the bag for $10, and then put 20 pounds of the stuff on our yard. I can do anything about JB grubs in anyone else's yard, or in the open fields nearby, but they are going to have a tough time making it out of my yard. ;-) Arktrees |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Thu, Jul 12, 12 at 17:43
| Agree completely, you have to learn to live with most invasives. My trial case is purple loosestrife. I LOVE the aesthetic appeal of that plant! But in my capacity as vegetation manager for our stormwater properties, it's public enemy #1. Let's just say, between me, you, and the fencepost, I've been known to ignore a plant or three. +oM |
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