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ay1128

red oak vs. swamp white oak

ay1128
15 years ago

I would like to plant an oak in my backyard, about 40 ft. behind my house, 15 ft. from my garage. Any thoughts about these two? Or another that you've really liked?

Comments (32)

  • pineresin
    15 years ago

    That's quite close to the foundations - if you have shrinkable clay soil, you could risk damage to the foundations in the future. Check with a consulting arborist with experience of local conditions before planting.

    Personally, I reckon Swamp White Oak is the more attractive of the two; it is also the longer-lived and more disease- and decay- resistant, but also slightly slower-growing.

    Resin

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    I have 2 swamp white oaks. Young, planted Dec05, very nice trees. 2 years 6 months after planting, they are starting to grow. They are both sprinkler watered for an hour almost every night, plus hose watered about 2X / week. In the fall / winter it rains a lot and their wells become lakes. They can handle this much water, but don't like water after the beginning of September until the natural rain starts (beginning of October).

    These 2 white swamp oaks have lovely leaves that are pink rosy when emerging and young. The bark is interesting and unfurls in places. The birds like these trees. Mine are too young for acorns.

    Now that they are starting to establish, their growth in the last 2 months is about 14" so far. One is doing better than the other because it gets some morning shade. The leaves will scorch if wet and the sun hits them. The sun here is ferocious in late spring / summer.

    I wish I had planted more of these. They are starting to really look good. This spring planted a Hungarian Oak near one where a sugar maple couldn't handle the water. In a few years, hopefully, a nice canopy will form in summer with these oaks.

    Oaks are one of the best trees to plant. I have 4 now and the 3 planted Dec05 are now growing just as fast or faster than many other trees. Before planting anything we prepared the yard to the max with lots of imported 4-way-blend topsoil, horse manure, creeklets and now regular watering and wormcasting. Fertilized 3x/year but now it will be all wormcasting. Worm bin getting productive!

  • wisconsitom
    15 years ago

    Both are fine trees and well suited to your intentions. It's just down to aesthetics-which do you prefer?

    +oM

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    Here's a picture showing the white swamp oak leaves overhead and to the right, didn't get a picture of the actual tree. The other oak, small, is the new Hungarian oak we planted this spring, with very interesting leaf shape. The sun in this picture is shining right through the Quercus bicolor's leaves turning them transparent:

    {{gwi:386044}}

  • ay1128
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thanks everyone. Cascadians, how big were the swamp whites when you planted in Dec 05?

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    They were about 8' tall at planting, but the top 1/3 of the branches all died the first year. This summer is the 1st time leaves have reached higher than when they were planted. Those top dead branches are still there, never came back to life. This happened to almost all the trees which went through severe transplant shock and freeze splits because the day after they were planted, we had a surprise cold snap that lasted 3 weeks, 11 degrees in this yard, too traumatic.

    This spring these die-back trees started getting new branches and leaves coming out of the trunks and they're so much better. It is obvious they want to live.

    This fall before leaf drop I'm going to have my yard guy mark all the dead branches and then prune them in January. He'll be using our tallest ladder and an extension pruner for some of the trees. Been afraid to do it until they passed the 3-years-after-planting mark and are stronger. The birds have appreciated those dead high branches to perch and survey.

    In general will be pruning in earnest this January. Must shape lots of willows, planted too many trees in here, but they're all so nice now. Those 1st 3 years are nerve-wracking and we lost many trees the first year because of too-hot scorching sun and a mole that demolished a lot of the yard.

    Wish I had planted more oaks! Would have planted red oaks.

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    40 feet from a house ... that's a long distance. My poor house, LOL
    Got trees crammed right up to it. LOTS of trees.

    Have a very nice triple wide manufactured home on a concrete foundation. 2300 square feet. Can't imagine that a tree will heave the foundation. What exactly happens?

    Have creeklets and lots of water flowing around the house, figure the roots will go there, about 3-4' away from house, rather than seek dry icky gravely earth under foundation.

    I'm 48 years old. If got really unlucky and lived to 100 that would be 52 more years. Could any tree in 52 years want to disturb the foundation when there's water nearby away from the foundation?

    Since ppl in general don't like trees or Nature anymore after I die they'll probably clear all this, which would be a tragedy because there's really gorgeous trees in here. But I'm never coming back to Earth and won't have to deal with the consequences of humanimal disrespect of God and Nature ever again.

    Maybe if there's an inch opening someday I'll plant an Oregon white oak. They used to be so common here but since nobody waters and there's been drought the last 3 years they're dying.

  • pineresin
    15 years ago

    Hi Spruce,

    "and I think the finest oak in the world"
    Personally, I prefer Hungarian Oak Q. frainetto and Caucasian Oak Q. macranthera.

    "It is the longest lived of the American oaks"
    AFAIK, Southern Live Oak Q. virginiana gets older (and is likely the longest-lived oak in the world).

    Resin

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    Hey Resin, it would your advocacy of the Quercus frainetto on this forum that made us look it up, research what it likes and buy it and plant it. In picture above :-) Great leaves! Sunset describes it as 'majestic' whoohoo!

  • spruceman
    15 years ago

    Resin:

    Ah, reports of long lived trees! I must admit I really don't know, so I would be interested in your sources about the live oaks, eastern white oaks, and any others. I can't cite any source now, but I have a memory of reading somewhere about an eastern white oak, Quercus alba, living to something like 900 years.

    I have travelled through a good bit of live oak country and am a real skeptic of reports of extreme ages for those trees--are there accurate ring counts? Some of those I have seen that were planted by plantation owmers are really, really big and old looking, but can't be much more than 200 maybe 250 years old. I have seen the famous "Angle" oak near Charleston SC (and a good number of other famous live oaks), and this is one amazing tree, but can it be much more than 4 or 5 hundred years old? Maybe people have taken cores and determined its age.

    I have also seen reports of English oak, Q. robur, something like 1,000 years old. I am also a bit skeptical of those reports, but lacking ring counts, there is at least some history there that can be consulted.

    Just seeking more info,

    --Spruce

  • pineresin
    15 years ago

    Hi Spruce,

    I'm not going on anything more definitve than you are, but published estimates that I've seen which seem to be made with at least some scientific basis put White Oak at 900 (I think that one in MD which blew down a couple of years ago?), Southern Live at 1,300 (yep, the Angel Oak), and English at around 1,200 (Kongeegen [King's Oak] in Denmark). But yes, they could all be well wide of the mark!

    Resin

  • pineresin
    15 years ago

    "advocacy of the Quercus frainetto on this forum"

    Glad you like it!! ;-)

  • pondwelr
    15 years ago

    au1128, I cant speak for the red oak. I did, however, plant a swamp white oak about 30 ft from my house. An area on my lot line between my house and the neighbors. It had cattails growing. I had a low berm built, planted all water-loving plants, and voila!.....have a lovely lot line row of trees. It was about 7 ft tall when planted 10 years ago. Is now about 30 ft tall. Love the tree.
    I say, go for it. Pondy

  • spruceman
    15 years ago

    Resin:

    The Wye oak of great fame, that fame I think perhaps somewhat undeserved, had been hollow for as long as people have focused on it for its size. I am not sure how any age estimates were made, but I would guess some idea could be had by counting rings on one of the large branches that had solid wood, and then adding some years for growth to that point. This tree was very spreading, and widely spreading trees can grow fast, so its very large diameter may not have been a good indicator of its age.

    There was another large white oak of some great fame that grew in the forest near the small town of Leadmine, in West Virginia. This tree was much larger than the Wye oak. It is reported to have been 14 feet in diameter 12 feet above the ground, and solid to the core. I have seen pictures of this tree after it was cut and the trunk split into quarters and placed on railroad cars, one quarter per car. But, although this tree is well documented by the pictures, it is strange that there are no reports of any ring counts being done. It is a shame it was cut, and a shame also that no one thought to determine its age.

    Now I don't want to create any rumors that will cause any problems for anyone, but I have been told by what I consider a completely reliable source, that there is a tree not far (within 50 miles, lets say) from this tree near Leadmine, that is very, very large--larger, I am told based on rough measurements, than the Wye oak. The man who owns the woods where this tree grows doesn't want anyone to know about it who may give some report of its location, and result in his being harassed by hoards of tree lovers tramping through his property. I believe I could get permission to see this tree, the owner being a friend of a very good friend of mine, but I have not taken steps to do that, feeling that the more people who know about this tree, the more uneasy the poor owner will be about his secret. At some point this tree's existence will be unavoidably publicized, I would hope after the owner has passed on. At that point some measurements can be taken and perhaps its age determined. Protecting it from that point from souvenir seekers may pose special problems. Perhaps it could be studied, but its location kept a secret as with the oldest bristlecone pine tree.

    --Spruce

  • dr_andre_phufufnik
    15 years ago

    I have both trees and like them a lot. If I was to pick one, it would be the red oak, for two reasons:

    1. Red oak has outstanding maroon fall foliage color. Swamp white oak leaves might turn a weak tan in a good autumn
    2. Red oak grows faster-- almost twice as fast-- as swamp white

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    Dr Andre Phufufnik, thank you for that very practical info from your first-hand experience.

    Does the red oak tolerate a lot of water?

    And what's the scientific name of your cultivar?

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    15 years ago

    My Swamp Chestnut Oak sure has grown fast. It started as a 18inch stick in 2004 and now it's probably over 10ft tall. It's been drought tolerant too, despite it's preference for moist soil.

    {{gwi:386045}}

  • dr_andre_phufufnik
    15 years ago

    I don't have named cultivars, just the species, Q. rubra & Q. bicolor

    Both of mine are in drier sites and do fine. I would not recommend Red Oak for a wet site.

  • cascadians
    15 years ago

    Thanks Dr

    Alabamatreehugger, your Swamp Chestnut Oak looks very healthy and nice! Looked it up, says " .... Swamp chestnut oak grows in a humid, temperate climate characterized by hot summers, mild and short winters, and no distinct dry season. The growing season usually averages from 200 to 250 days through the main section of its commercial range. Average annual temperature ranges from 16° to 21° C (60° to 70° F) with an average annual precipitation of 1270 to 1520 min (50 to 60 in). .... "

    No distinct dry season and 60 inches of rain a year! Wouldn't grow in my yard at all, 30" rain this year only and long hot dry bone dry relentless sun in June / July / August / September.

    Ppl think of the PacNW as being very wet and rainy all the time but it's just winter when the trees don't suck up much water as they're dormant. The rest of the time it doesn't rain much anymore.

    I would love to have 60" rain per year and no distinct dry season!

  • alabamatreehugger 8b SW Alabama
    15 years ago

    We get dry spells here too. We had a severe drought last year, but that tree kept growing with no additional water.

  • treeguy123
    15 years ago

    pineresin: "Personally, I prefer Hungarian Oak Q. frainetto and Caucasian Oak Q. macranthera"

    Those very are nice Oaks (don't know much about them though), but in my own option White Oaks (Quercus alba) have much nicer bark. They also have nice white/pink fuzzy new spring leaves that adds interest and they have very nice long lasting purple to red fall colors.
    The only draw back is they grow slow, which I don't like.

    A White Oak (Quercus alba) here I estimate 200 to 300 years old:
    {{gwi:386046}}

  • ay1128
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    You guys are great. I'm a total newbie, but I just bought a house from an obsessive gardener who planted dozens of trees and shrubs (not to mention the flowers, which interest me less). So I'm getting into it and the info here is really helpful.
    But she had a thing against large trees and I'd like to correct this injustice.
    dr. andre, thanks for the tip. I do want a fast growing tree.
    As far as Quercus alba, I've read that they get really huge and I don't know if my site can handle that.

  • wisconsitom
    15 years ago

    Ay

    True, the white oak can get very large. But the same is definitely true of red and swamp white oaks. All have good strong wood and normally develop a strong structure though.

    +oM

  • pineresin
    15 years ago

    Hi Treeguy - yep, that's very nice bark on that White Oak; more interesting than Hungarian Oak, tho' Caucasian Oak is actually quite similar.

    Hi Ay - agree with +oM, Swamp White and Red are both roughly the same size as White, when mature. Not a lot of difference. But none of them will get "really huge" within a normal human lifespan; that's only something to worry about a hundred years or so from now.

    Resin

  • sll849_aol_com
    12 years ago

    The city just planted a swamp white oak on a small piece of ground surrounded by asphalt in front of our house. It was planted on March 29, and is about 10 feet tall. It is planted about 15 feet from a huge old oak tree. It is showing no signs of life yet. Should I be worried? We live in a suburb of Kansas City.

  • mrandal
    12 years ago

    Does anyone know where to find Hungarian or Caucasian Oak in the US?

  • lattechip
    10 years ago

    There are 5 things I love about our Swamp White Oak:
    1. The leaf color remains fresh, spring green all summer long. While other tree leaves go drab.
    2. The older trees are gorgeous, with deep, dark, furrowed bark, and character
    3. At first I didn't like that the leaves stay on all winter. But these leaves are a rich sanguine color, that is beautiful against the drab winter sky. They are like the sketching colors used by the old masters.
    4. This is a strong tree. When Hurricane Sandy hit, I went through the park, and other trees, including oaks were torn up. The old Swamp White Oak stood unscathed.
    5. The tree is stubborn, which I like. You'll have to own one to understand. It has a distinct personality.

  • poaky1
    10 years ago

    I have both red and swamp white oaks. If I had to choose, the Swamp white oaks have better shape when young. My Northern red oaks have branches that turn up to the sky VS the Q Bicolor branches more widely outward spreading. Now I have a Shumard and many Nuttalls oaks that have widely spaced branches and nice form for producing great shade. I do have one small Northern red oak with open branching unlike the others.

  • greenthumbzdude
    10 years ago

    Imagine if the wye oak grew in an Appalachian cove forest...that tree would have been even more monsterous

  • hamburglar1
    9 years ago

    I planted a swamp white oak 18 months ago. Was just under 5' tall container, mail order from Forest Farm. I had read that swamp whites are slow growers, but mine has been very vigorous. I think buying small is a good strategy because the 10' B&B's at the garden centers will stare at your for a couple years before taking off and require a lot more watering. This guy will catch up with the bigger ones.

    I just watered mine weekly during the first summer, but did not water at all the second year. Generously mulched w/ leaf compost. Grew like crazy. I had to re-establish the central leader due to heavy deer browsing. After protecting, it easily put on 2-3 feet in height and a ton of density in the second summer. The trunk really bulked up quickly too. Looks like a winner. Fall color is better than expected, kind of a pale orange.

    In an area like NE Ohio, which is often pretty wet but also goes through some dry spells, swamp whites seem to thrive. Unlike a lot of oaks, they can supposedly handle wet or dry. Northern reds seem to prefer somewhat drier sites. Of course, Northern Reds are still very good trees. If you are dealing with wetness and/or clay soils, an alternative is the Nuttalli. They have the best form of the reds from what I have seen around here and are starting to gain traction. Guy Sternberg developed a nice cultivar (New Madrid) that you can buy mail-order. Just got one of those too.

  • drrich2
    9 years ago

    An earlier posted mentioned a swamp white oak holding its dead leaves; oddly enough, I've got one that doesn't. It sheds its leaves in early winter.

    I like the tree. Mine leaves out densely. I'd guess it to be between 15 and 20 feet tall, bought & planted large about 2 or 3 years ago.

    Richard.

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