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| Does anyone have experience with some of the "unusual"oaks.
While my passion for beeches is never going to fade, I cannot plant only beeches on my acreage (also considering they are at the edge of my hardiness zone). I keep coming back to the quercus (and caryas...). I come from europe and for us the quercus is robur, ilex, petrea, and cerris. I have three bur oaks already on my property. I was wondering what is your experience with the other oaks.
I am profoundly impressed by the quercus alba and the muehelenbergii. I was wondering what can you tell me about the following ones:
and I am very interested in the hybrids. I know that hybrids are very variable but I'd like to hear any experience you guys have. I am planning to have a windbreak made by quercus x wareii (robur x bicolor) which are nicely fastigiate and cheap (from Morse) I am very interested in opinions about
I am very intrigued by shingle oak: any specific experience with that will help. It does seem it has much thicker branches than your typical red oak. Thanks so much for your advice!!!! P.S. Ah, forgot to mention, beside the windbreak of ~35 trees, I am planning to plant ~10 more oaks at least. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by strobiculate none (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 12:16
| You have plans to plant about 45 trees. I may be off my rocker...but why not indulge your curiosity and your passion. You've outlined your likes and dislikes...and the only person they have to make sense to is you. Whenever possible, see these things in person. I believe Iowa State has a botanic garden of some kind...and I know there are major plantings at arboretums in Mn, Mo, and around Chicago. If you are unaware of it, you may interesting a book titled Oak: the frame of civilization |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 13:42
| imbricaria.. tends toward a weeping form for me .. and every time i lift the canopy.. so i can walk/mow under them .. they weep right back down ... i bought mine as 6 to 8 foot bare root .. 30 of them packed into a standard pickup... drove 250 miles home.. and planted them in mid april ... red, black, shingle,scarlet 12 years later.. most most are over 30 feet tall ... might be time for a road trip to mansfield OH ... if you are interested .. see link ... ken
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Here is a link that might be useful: link
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| Iowa State has Reiman Gardens. They have bur, chinkapin, bicolor, and little else in terms of oaks. I am sure we have a lot of these oaks across campus. We have no real map of all species on campus though. What is in Mansfield OH? |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 16:56
| mansfield/belleville OH ===>>> that is where i got mine PDF at link ... those prices are ball and burlap.. i have no clue what bare root prices are.. or if they still sell them ... a list of potential tree names is nice.. actually finding them for sale.. is always another issue.. lol .. ken |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
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| lcadem, I've been accused of displaying 'plantist' tendencies by a friend who shows up here from time to time. While I concentrate primarily on the Carya species, I've also dedicated a lot of space to oaks - principally Q.macrocarpa and hybrids with other white oak species - but recently began 'branching out'(pun intended) into collecting/grafting some of the red/black oak group. I have all the species and hybrids you've mentioned, though most I've planted here are less than 20 years in the ground. Q.x bimundorum - have a single F2 seedling - fastigiate habit, but no appreciable fall color, like some of the Schmidt introductions I'll also strongly recommend Q.x schuettei(macrocarpaXbicolor) and Q.x humidicola(bicolorXlyrata) for consideration. Consider joining the International Oak Society(I'll link it below) - |
Here is a link that might be useful: International Oak Society
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| Ken, you are one in a million! Love your "road trip" link! |
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 18:41
| the red oak family is alot faster growing. Unless you plan to live for another 300 years to see the white oaks mature I suggest you aleast plant some red oaks. Cherrybark oak is considered the largest species of oak out there and its in the red oak family. As for the hybrids, from what I have experienced they are much faster growing and healthier. I would check out Oikos Tree Crops; just google the name and their website will come up. They have a bunch of unusual hybrids out their that no one else has. |
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| Lucky: at some point I'll have to ask you about Caryas as well. We have on campus a Carya (I think it is ovata, but it has a strange bark, as if all the planks have come off) that has the most spectacular foliage of any tree I have ever seen. But let's stay on topic. you didn't say why you didn't like imbricaria. :-) |
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| greenthumbz: Great to have your experience on hybrids. Can anyone else weigh in on this "hybrid vigour"? 300 years sounds like a stretch. I plan to plant them next year and the year after. I am 33, planning to live another 50... that should give me some decent plants by the time I hit the ground. I find joy in the looking at how great trees come to be, almost as much as in admiring the accomplished greatness of the ancient ones. I know about oikos, and morse. I read that Morse uses a more sophisticated propagation method which should maintain the character of the hybrids. |
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| I love oaks too, and have a decent selection of varieties. I just found out by posing a ? on this forum the tree I couldn't identify, came up wild, was a shingle oak. I have willow oak, and most of the more common varieties. As to white oak........uhm, greenthumbsdude, you meant 30 years and not 300, right?, on them reaching maturity? I planted a variegated one about sixteen years ago, and it was less than a foot tall when I bought it. It has been producing acorns now for a few years and is a very generous tree already. I really stink judging tree height, but I'd saw at least twenty five feet. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 1, 12 at 8:13
| estimating height of a tree is easy.. if you have a camera ... and a scale ... a standard shovel.. is 6 feet from the tip of the spade.. to the tip of the handle .. [or simply measure yours] ... lean it against a tree.. step back until you can fit the whole tree in the pic.. snap a pic.. upload it.. and now.. having a scale.. you can count how many times your scale is multiplied.. to get an estimate ... and once you do it a few times ... you will be near able to do it.. w/o the camera ... ken |
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| lucky_p, I have a small Q.x schuettei(macrocarpaXbicolor) from OIKOS. LOOKS like a standard bicolor, so I bet it's backcrossed to bicolor several times. I wonder how OIKOS keeps the linage clean for the seedlings.... It's planted in rather poor, very clayish soil w/a (usually) high water table & doing well. |
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| Thanks Ken. I was taught, years ago some why to figure it out based on shadow cast, but it was so weird, I guess I figured it would be easier to climb it and drop a plumb-bob. |
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| Mileage may vary. Considerably. I see/hear folks repeating the old saw that 'red oaks grow faster than white oaks'; it doesn't hold true for all species, or all planting sites. In my young plantings (all less than 20 yrs old), members of the white oak group - predominantly bur oak and bur hybrids - have outgrown M.rubra and M.coccinea(the only reds I had planted until recently) planted at the same time by a magnitude of 2-3X. If I'd been planting alba & stellata, I might not be able to make that same claim. Most of the bur oaks have begun producing good crops of acorns by 8-10 yrs, some by 6 yrs. Interestingly to me, most of the hybrids have been quite a bit slower to come into bearing. No acorns on any of the red oaks, and most are fast approaching 20 yrs. beng, I've bought a few trees from OIKOS through the years. Have never visited, but I bought those seedlings knowing up-front, that coming out of such a varied planting, the pollen parent could potentially be almost anything growing there. Only 'guarantee' was that of the seed parent. I've been pleased with what I got, and the prices were right. |
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| What about bear oak, quercus ilicifolia, does anyone have experience with that? It will remain a large shrub I read, and can even form dense thickets. |
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- Posted by greenthumbzdude 6 PA (My Page) on Thu, Aug 2, 12 at 22:04
| bear oak is an interesting shrub. I encounter it alot where I work. I am currently doing some restoration work on top of a mountain that was devegetated by pollution a few hundred yards from the appalachian trail. It is very tough and will survive in crappy soil and fire stricken areas. They sucker alot especially if the top is destroyed by fire. The biggest ones I have seen are were only about 5 feet high and they do form thickets. Its a good wildlife plant for problem areas. |
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- Posted by viburnumvalley z5/6 KY (My Page) on Sat, Aug 4, 12 at 22:01
| I'd ditto all the comments above from the esteemed gentleman from western KY - especially since the subject was not Sweetgum. Plantist, indeed... Additionally, I'd suggest that the issue of provenance be very high on the considerations of anyone planting in places like Ames, Iowa - especially when using species not normally grown there. Find seed sources from as far north and west as possible. I don't know squat about the firm you mention - Morse - but folks relatively near you like Forrest Keeling (that actually track the provenance of seed that they grow out) are highly respected and successful. Check with them. I mentioned Starhill Forest Arboretum on your other thread about Cherrybark Oak. This could be another place to gain heightened knowledge about the quest upon which you embark. They can provide unequalled knowledge about all things Oak - and quite possibly some good information about sources that should ensure success. FINALLY - I'll again second lucky's recommendation to reference (and join) the International Oak Society. These plant organizations are full of zealots and knowledge, with so much for you to gain at such a low investment. "To seek and to share", to quote yet another plant organization's motto... |
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| Dear all thanks so much for all the feedback. Regarding selections: I am betting on climate change! :-) If all goes right I might end up having the state champion Sequoiadendron Giganteum (after all, there shouldn't be much competition, right?) I often visit Sternberg's webpage. He has the best gallery of picture one could dream of. Some of his cultivars seem extremely promising. He has a nuttal oak that has red young leaves that stay red until may! Stunning! The problem is I couldn't find places where to get these cultivars... I sent him an email regarding Pagoda. Sounds like a great tree, but I trying to identify which oak to use for a pivot position in my garden: maybe I should just stick to alba or bebbiana. Saul's oak sound amazing though... Anyway, lots to think about. If anybody else has opinions or observations on the oaks mentioned above, please share! Cheers |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sun, Aug 5, 12 at 0:17
| I don't think 150 trees on 3 acres is crazy at all. Stocking recommendations for softwoods in my area for forestry purposes is around 750 on one acre. And to get nice boles, free of excessive branching which ruins sawtimber, the spacing for hardwoods like oak is even tighter. What you will have to contend with is the varying growth rates of different species in close proximity to one another. If one fast-growing type quickly overtops another slower species, the slower one will not develop properly. So do try to match that up to the extent possible, I'd say. +oM |
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| Yes, I worried a lot about that. This is why the main wooded area of the plan is going to be all beech trees for these reasons: 1. beech trees are my favourite trees 2. they can grow in shade 3. I can plant them all together and expect a somewhat similar growth rate 4. a beech wood is the most beautiful spectacle of nature I have most of my trees at ~16 feet distance of each other, in a cute irregular pattern, with clearings in between, especially in proximity of the house. With oaks it is quite complicated because I am told they really do not like being shaded, at least most oaks don't... mmm... |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sun, Aug 5, 12 at 14:26
| Yes, oaks regenerate in the forest primarily following some disturbance, a clearcut, a big wind, a fire, that leaves things open and sunny. But if you're planting them around one another, and if they are of species with similar rates of growth, they will essentially be in full sun the whole time. Should work. Beech are indeed amazingly beautiful trees. Glad you're working with them. I'd say not the easiest to establish-the American beech is on many lists of the most finicky of all species in terms of site requirements. But somebody's got to try! +oM |
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| actually - I'll mostly have european beech (the cultivars are jawdroppingly beautiful - I believe that anybody who has not seen a mature asplenifolia does not know what a tree can be). It should be a little bit better in terms of soil, but it might be a tad tight on the temperatures... I am hoping that the tightish spacing will keep them less uncomfortable during the long winter |
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- Posted by wisconsitom 4/5 WI (My Page) on Sun, Aug 5, 12 at 17:08
| I think that yes, tighter spacing will be helpful, if you can get them over the hump of early years. And too, you're correct, European beech is just slightly less demanding of perfect, constantly moist but well-drained conditions needed by the American version. Best of luck. BTW, what part of Iowa are you in? Once while visiting the area along the Mississippi R.-the McGregor area to be exact, I was surprised to visit a nearby State Park which closely resembled, in terms of land forms and plant species present, areas hundreds of miles to the north and east here in WI. Very cool. +oM |
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| I just moved 6 months ago here in central iowa, near Ames. I have very little feel as to what is growable here since I haven't been here for a whole winter. Add to this the fact that, being european, I have very little clue as to the behaviour of certain north american species such as most of your oaks. For me, white oaks have always been just robur (at most, cerris and frainetto). And red oaks are simply non-existent. The idea of a white oak that turns red in fall ("quercus alba") was totally alien to me. It is going to be an adventure! I have three bur oaks growing in the garden right now, and struggling to survive after being planted after breaking dormancy (April), and being severely root-pruned due to extensive girdling. But it is awesome to have oaks growing in the garden! |
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| lcadem. We have planted over 150 trees on the three acre 'garden' part of our property. You can pull it off with careful planning where it comes across more like a park than a forest. The look now as they mature is very lush and generous, not at all cluttered and busy. Combining that with hedges and shrubbery also has given us a wonderful privacy. I carefully planned this when we began so that lines of sight from the road would be blocked but not in an obvious way like a fence or wall. |
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| Thanks for the props, VV. lcadem, |
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| Just saw a street lined with shingle oaks. You are right. The leaf texture is terrific, unique, crisp and healthy, but the habit is such a disaster. Reminds me the worst cases of q. Palustris... I still plant one but it is a real pity... Maybe with some pruning... |
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| I have lots of the oaks listed but they are small still. I just want to add that the Q. Virginia X Q. Lyrata' or Compton's oak' is listed as zone 5 hardy. I got mine at Mossy oak natives nursery online. I have 3 of them, but they are only 2 years in my yard and only about 4 ft tall. The one closest to the house was evergreen last winter, I don't remember any fall color on those out further from the house. The Comptons in Williamsburg, Va is huge like the Q. Virginiana From a distance you can tell much difference. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Compton's oak Va champion
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- Posted by arbor_girl none (My Page) on Thu, Aug 30, 12 at 22:51
| A couple of comments on the subject... Guy Sternberg's selections will be available through Forrest Keeling very soon. They'll have limited stock this fall and spring, while they build up more inventory. You can contact them directly to see what they're offering right now. I haven't seen the stock list just yet, but I think the 'New Madrid' Nuttall's oak is among them. http://www.fknursery.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/home.showpage/pageID/126 /index.htm Also, if you live in central Iowa, you should check out the Brenton Arboretum (http://www.thebrentonarboretum.org/), if you havn't been there yet. It's a beautiful setting, and I'm sure they would be happy to give you some ideas! |
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| Many of my oaks are small. My Compton's oak from 2010 is over my head, so about 5'8". Quercus Montana/prinus is 3 ft+ in good/moist soils per year. The Comptons near the house was evergreen last winter, sorry, I don't remember how the other 2 Comptons color was, but they were deciduous. I planted a Sawtooth oak about 4-5 years ago and it grew really fast, but I read that they don't live long and I cut it down. Chestnut oak is native and b eautiful but if you don't remove the acorns which it bears early, you will have many babies to relocate. They are edible after some processing. They are sweeter than red oak acorns though. If you can boil them a few times they will be perfect for making pastries with, just like other nuts. They may be okay to eat raw actually, I will have to try it. White oak family acorns are not as bitter as red oak acorns. My Chestnut oaks are very rapid growing, I have 2. The Chestnut oak have so far not had much fall color. My white oak Quercus alba have been puting out some 2ft+ yr growth lately. They've been in the ground for about 5-6 years though. One has put out about 4-5 ft this year. I have to get some pix loaded for that one. |
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