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| And I'm scared it's going to affect us too.
My husband and I were out planting our 2 new trees about an hour ago. Outside the sky is completely white overcast because a cold front is moving in bringing thunderstorms later. It was lightly raining when we were planting. The perfect time to get the trees in. Anyway, while we were in the light rain, one of the neighbors was pulling out and driving by. When he saw us he pulled up on the side of the road in front of our house, and turned off the car. He was in the mood to talk, but we needed to dig some dirt across the other side of the yard to refill the planting holes, he caught us at a bad time. It looked like it was going to downpour at any moment So we didn't really want to talk right then. He said he saw me this morning out watering my trees and commented it's about time we got some rain, huh? And I said yeah, we haven't had rain in weeks, and he said yeah, my well is going dry intermittently, and Mr. C's (our other neighbor) has gone completely dry. I know I saw people working on Mr. C's well the past couple of days. It's a well that in the spring they charge it and in the fall they drain it? I don't know, I can't remember exactly, but anyway there were a bunch of guys frantically working on his well today and the last few days which is not normal. Now I know why. And here I was watering happily for 10 hours a day in front of him, and I feel terrible about that. He must have been (understandably)swearing at me under his breath. But more than that I am wondering why dh and I have so much water, and a solid water pressure. Why aren't we having the same problem? I guess for all I know we will have the same problem. :( Our neighbor said his well has been having problems because of a lack of rain. But how can that be, we live on a lake, isn't that our aquifer? And if the cause is lack of rain, why aren't we having the same issue? Should I continue to water my trees in light of my neighbor's problems or can some neighbors have a well problem and not anyone else? Thanks in advance. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Could it be that your well is deeper than your neighbors', in which case you may not have problems? Cheryl |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 3, 12 at 16:48
| there are usually numerous aquifers .. you must not be in the same as him ... somewhere in your county bureaucracy.. there is information on your well ... call the local well guy ... closest one.. they are required to keep records.. they may know .. or for sure.. they will refer you to the agency who has all the records ... did it last year ... to find out how big my pump was .. at the bottom of the 58 foot hole ... 10 mins on the phone.. got me the original permit info ... what we could not define.. is whether the pump had ever been replaced.. but depth remained the same ... ken |
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| Can you pump out of the lake to do your outside watering? I would get all the information from a local well driller and all the info you can get from the county. Depth of wells, water table, slope, etc. Then you might find out if your watering is affecting your neighbor's wells. Let's hope it doesn't. Mike |
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| I'm no expert at wells but I was troubled by the fact you mentioned you where watering for 10 hours. I thought you only have a few baby trees? |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 7:53
| Whaas, I have 22 trees, and I've been watering them 1 hour (each) every other day. I have dry sandy soil. I would give anything to have clay and not have to deal with this. We haven't had rain for several weeks, and all we got yesterday was a few sprinkles, but yet we've had high 80's and low 90's. I'll definitely make some calls tomorrow after the holiday. Obviously, I don't want to affect anyone else's water. I already feel bad enough for my neighbors whether it's my watering or not that's causing their problems. I remember one time someone tell me several years ago that we have a very low water table around here.. I'll see what I can find out. Thanks for responding. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 8:24
| I've been watering them 1 hour (each) every other day. I have dry sandy soil. I would give anything to have clay ==>> there is so much wrong with this.. my head just spun off.. and i cant see the keyboard to type .. lol ... i have sand.. i have NEVER watered trees every other day ... even brand new transplants .. if you ever lived with clay.. you would NEVER wish for it ... no tree thrives in clay .. IMHO ... they cope ... all trees thrive in sand ... once established ... arent your trees properly mulched.. how in the world.. with a 2 to 3 inch blanket of mulch.. could a soil possibly dry out in 48 hours???? ken
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 8:56
| They are all have about 2 inches of mulch. My trees are thriving. I suppose they're drunk happy on all that water. lol Would they thrive on less water? I guess I could try. The one neighbor whose well went dry has a restaurant and provides water and electricity to seasonal (the same people every year) vacationers who come every year from Buffalo with their campers and gigantic boats and jet skis, and rent spots on his many acres so they can barbecue and water ski all summer long. I'm guessing 300 people. So between them and the restaurant I would bet they are using as much water as I am. This is what I am trying to screen out with my trees. Ken, because Im new to all this, maybe my definition of "dry" and your's is different. I probably have less of a comfort level of how "dry" I want my soil before watering, and now that I have a system that is working I hate to change it up. However, just for the "optics" of it all I'm going to water maybe one or twice a week during these hot temps. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 9:07
| i see you are up early.. got the water going.??? ... lol ... listen.. in high drainage sand.. you cant hurt them.. you are doing nothing wrong ... but if i were to stick my finger into your soil ... thru mulch.. cool soil means it is damp ... they do NOT need more water .. and to be clear.. we are talking at what.. an inch or two [my finger depth] ... never confuse the first inch of sand.. with whether the soil is dry a foot down.. where the roots are ... eh ... i often suggest a small trowel hole.. to find out what is going on at depth ... with the finger ... when the first inch or two is warming.. or getting hot ... as compared to cool a day or two earlier... then the moisture is moving out of the soil.. and starting to dry ... further down ... and that is when i would water ... there is nothing wrong with continuing your regimen .. unless you run your well dry .. but as august passes.. you better slow down a bit.. as nights cool ... and days start to just get cold ... do not put away your hose on 10/1 .. continue providing water.. thru thxgving.. WHICH MIGHT BE ONE GOOD LAST DRINK IN NOV.. surely not every day or so ... do NOT freeze the roots into an ice cube .. in later fall ... you are doing fine, slightly to the compulsive side .. on some level i am talking to other lurkers.. who may not have sand.. talking variables to consider.. no one should follow someone else's regimen ... without considering such ... do NOT change what you are doing.. since you are succeeding.. just think about it all ... ken |
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- Posted by Dzitmoidonc 6 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 9:45
| Ken, I have clay. If you dig out a chunk when wet, it will last for years through the wind and rain and snow. I could dig out a brick-sized chunk, write your address on it, and likely it would get there in one piece! And, hrumpff, some trees do very well in clay, thank you. Paulownia tomentosa, Ailanthus altissima and Callery Pear are examples of what grow fine. So there. Actually, I find that Nyssa, Hickory and Q. bicolor do very well. Lots of shrubs. Sycamore thrive in my clay. Swamp Red Oak I got from WI also do well. The trick is to get them established, but by the second year, no more watering! |
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| I have sandy soil as well. Planted just over 300 plants since last year. It takes 8 hours to water them all. At this point the plants planted this year get 1 watering per week. 2x per week if its in the 90s everyday. The plants installed last year get 1 watering per 2 weeks or 1 watering per week if its in the 90s for a full week. Just a generalization or how and when I water. As Ken eluded to its going to vary based on variables such as true soil conditions, grading, exposure, humidity, night time temps, wind, etc. The 1-2 gallon sized plants get watered for about 15 seconds. 3-5 gallon sized plants about 30 seconds. All watered from the center. The larger, older plants get watered for about 15 min at and inside the drip line. I make a circular motion with the attachment below around the drip line. It creates a nice thick flow to break through the mulch and penetrate the soil. I do that for half the time and the rest of the time the water flows at the center.
PLEASE stop wasting all that water! Your current regimen is going to create an expansive shallow root system. Now that you are educated hopefully you will do the right thing. All in all just my opinion but this is my 3rd full scale landscape install in the hostile midwest and watering is something I perfected for my installs. |
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| It all depends on the type of clay. Rocky, limestone clay is terrible for growing "most" plants. Non draining hard pan clays are terrible as well. A more loamy clay that drains can be fantastic for many trees. In fact can be one of the best. Some areas of my last home had both. Anyway you cut it clay is a son of gun during drought condition. It goes rock hard, separates and repels water. Basically damaging roots. Here is look at most the trees thriving in clay. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 10:39
| Whaas I wasn't trying to be irresponsible with my watering. I don't want to waste water; I just wanted to give my trees the best start they could have, and maybe I over did it a little ( a lot). I don't have any kind of watering system. I just put the hose on the ground by the tree and set it there for an hour, then pick it up and move to the next tree. They are all 1 gallon trees. I'll bump it down to 15 minutes a tree 1-2 times a week. If the trees do okay I'll bump it down to once a week. I certainly don't want a shallow root system. |
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| I was just being a prick, lol. The simple point is that the small root system doesn't need that much water just a quick dousing. As it ages you may need to leave the hose on for a trickle in various spots for an hour. I still like the higher flow though, gives it a quick even soaking and doesn't waste much water. |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 12:19
| And, hrumpff, some trees do very well in clay, thank you. Paulownia tomentosa, Ailanthus altissima and Callery Pear are examples of what grow fine. So there. ===>> now thats hilarious... all the weed trees grow just fine.. eh??? ... lol will.. i read your post twice.. what the point of the pic??? ... does it go on the end of a water wand??.. the hose???? and listen.. you are not wasting water ... you pump it out of the ground.. apply it to the top of the ground.. and most soaks in and goes right back to the water table .. and the rest goes to the air.. its a closed system.. it is simply IMPOSSIBLE ... to waste ... and you are doing nothing to make it unclean ... and in fact.. you are refiltering it thru the aquifier ... what you are wasting.. is electricity .. on pumping it up ... and your time ... though i have a sneaky feeling.. it makes you very happy to run out there every hour ... and fondle your trees ... which is fine ... though we are having a discussion.. please dont screw up.. what is working.. for you.. on your soil.. with your trees ... is just fine... you obviously are not drowning them ... i just dont want to hear that you changed everything.. and they browned in august .... maybe you should just never mind .. changing it all ... I DONT KNOW ... and i dont want the guilt of you changing .... but it would surely be worth digging a few holes.. out on the perimeter of what you planted.. to find out how damp the sand is.. a few inches down.. under mulch ... your whole scheme is all speculation ... you are simply guessing ... and that is what i wish you would fix ... dig a hole where you dont water.. make notes how dry at 6 to 8 inches ... dig a hole near a tree before you water ... make notes.. and then dig a hole after you water a tree.. and find out.. how deep your one hour of water goes ... then put all the data together.. and decide.. if you can cut back a bit ... ken |
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| Watering (22) 1 gallon trees for 10 hours every other day IS wasting water. Here is just one article I found with a simple search. Water evaporates much quicker than you think. http://www.wellmanager.com/wellmanager_applications_irrigation.htm |
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| Sorry, didn't see the ref. to the soaker attachment. It goes on the end of the hose. I never use a wand, just don't work well for me. Here is another one for ya. ""The people on the South Shore," said Ms. Meyland, "are the first ones who see the consequences of how we [negatively] use our water." |
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| "But more than that I am wondering why dh and I have so much water, and a solid water pressure. Why aren't we having the same problem? I guess for all I know we will have the same problem." We live in north eastern NC. and felt the earthquake about a year ago. Last week I learned there have been several failures of old well that were high producer. The story is that the earthquake did some to the aquifers causing wells to go bad. Could something like that have happen in your area? Logical explanation but no facts. |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 13:21
| At this point, it isn't about the neighbors' wells. They are probably going to end up having to redrill deeper. Then it becomes about *your* well. The idea isn't to get the trees used to livin' large. The idea is to get them established so they can survive on their own, with deep root systems that can search out water. Otherwise, every little hiccup with the well is a possible death sentence. ------ You would not believe the things that can die off here during a normal drought because people insisted on watering a couple of times a week and developing shallow root systems. Then the water goes dry, and the plants are on their own. In an area where 'drought' still means 30" of rain. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 13:26
| If I can water these trees with less water, and still have healthy trees, then I am all for it. I don't want to waste any precious resources. Botann, I don't know if we could pump out of our lake or not. I don't know what my neighbors would say. Whaas, your link says: "Irrigation is a depletive water use. In other words, water pumped from the ground and applied for irrigation is either taken up by plants or evaporates into the air. It does not go back into the aquifer through a septic system or some other means as other uses might." I didn't know that. I thought that all water on the ground, whether from the clouds in the sky or the hose in the yard, goes down (eventually) to the aquifer. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees (My Page) on Wed, Jul 4, 12 at 13:54
| "Water, water everywhere, claims township, insisting resident pay $10,000 bill" Kirit Kothari's home has two water meters: one for the home itself, and a second one for the sprinkler system. In early April 2011, Kothari received his two quarterly bills from the town to cover January, February and March. The bills would normally come on a post card, but this time, the sprinkler bill came on a post card and the home's water bill came in an envelope. Kothari opened the envelope for the home's water bill, which usually ran between $110 and $115 every three months. 'When I opened the envelope I said, 'Wow!' and I laughed,' he said. 'I told my wife to look at this and she laughed, too.' The whole story is found at the link below |
Here is a link that might be useful: NJ.com (New Jersey News)
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 5, 12 at 10:05
| Water evaporates much quicker than you think. "Many people think that that water goes back into the aquifers," said Ms. Meyland, "but it does not. It evaporates into the atmosphere." " -=== .. and then what .. floats to the moon ... the atmosphere is a closed system ... water can not disappear from the earth ... it can not be wasted ... if you want to talk about water treatment for cities.. and in attendant COST of providing a clean water to a mass population.. then i can see a lot of waste ... but that is not an argument i am willing to argue ... its moot .. there is waste ... but the water itself ... is not .. and can not ... be wasted ... its a closed system ... she pumps it from mother earth .. a vast majority returning to mother earth .. especially since she is not aerosolizing it with a sprinkler ... rather soaking it into the ground .. and the rest evaporates and turns into clouds.. and returns to earth as rain.. wherein it hits the ground and returns to the aquifer ... [or hits water .. which theoretically is the aquifer ..... etc ...] ms meyland is being a bit disingenuous with her argument ... i wouldnt risk a shiny penny.. on her wanting to shut down the local power plant.. to solve her dilemma ... ken |
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| I guess I was talking about draining local reservoirs. Who knows where it will eventually end up. Potable water tables are declining and aren't getting repleshed quikcly enough. Why do think ILMT's neighbors are having issues to begin with? Bottomline, watering (22) 1 gallon trees for 10 hours every other day IS wasting water. I guess for the sake of a closed system, I have to change it to fresh, potable water. |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 5, 12 at 13:38
| Update: I was outside about 30 min ago watering the trees. I went and put the hose on the next tree and then went back to the tree I had just watered. I had watered it for 20 min on LOW pressure. I decided to pull out the grass/weeds that were growing through the rock mulch, and the weeds pulled out easily. I separated the 2 inches of rock down to the soil and found all the soil was SATURATED, soaking wet! Easily all the way down to the roots. It was a wet mud. The weeds came out without any effort and the roots of the weeds were sopping wet. I guess my rock mulch gave me the false impression that everything was so dry. I can't believe it, 20 minutes is all they need, heck probably 15 minutes would be enough. While I was outside pulling the weeds my next door neighbor came over to say hello, and I was able to talk to him as some length. He said he has water again and it just needed to rain. I told him how sorry I was that he was having problems. He said he knows his well is not deep enough but he isn't going to do anything about it right now. He said the other neighbor has more than one well, and only one well went dry, but it was just an "artesien" well, whatever that is, but that the guy's other wells are just fine. He made it sound like the artesien well was no big deal. He said the well over here that I keep seeing all these guys working on and is currently surrounded by yellow crime scene tape, is actually the camp's conservation club's well, not my neighbor's. It's on his property, but it's not his well, nor does he maintain it. He said that well is not dry, it's just always malfunctioning. I told him I was cutting down my watering in a big way to make sure my watering wasn't affecting his well. He didn't think my watering was affecting his well at all. Either way, I've cut down my watering and I doubt the trees are going to suffer. I am very grateful for everyone's responses on here. |
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| Well, that's a nice ending. Mike |
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| Booya! |
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| you may enjoy this site ilovemytrees... lots of good resources out there for groundwater conditions (generally speaking, not to street level) no matter where you live... |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ground Water Watch USGS
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- Posted by tsugajunkie z5 SE WI (My Page) on Thu, Jul 5, 12 at 19:54
| Stay tuned next week when we'll be reading about your trees having symptoms of overwatering. ;-) tj |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Fri, Jul 6, 12 at 20:57
| Thanks everyone! Tsugajunkie, my trees will never suffer from over watering. I've been watering them like I had been doing (before I cut the water time down by 66% yesterday)for 4 months and they all were doing fantastic and growing so fast with beautiful dark green leaves. I just hope that that doesn't change now that I have cut the water time down in a big way. Hogmanay, thanks for the link to the website. I am so frustrated right now, because earlier on the local evening news they gave the local 7 day forecast, and it's all mid to high 80's, with NO rain. They said we have only gotten half of the rain we should have by now. Gee, I think we all can look at our yards and see all the brown color and deduce that for ourselves. We don't need a weather man telling us what we already know. :/ |
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| In sandy soil your lawn can turn brown and your established trees can be just fine. The tree's roots go down deeper. Mike |
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- Posted by ken_adrian z5 (My Page) on Sat, Jul 7, 12 at 16:13
| Why do think ILMT's neighbors are having issues to begin with? ==>>> because they are running a business on an historic well that was never meant to be commercial??? .. who knows.. lol .. well then later she says its not deep enough ... I separated the 2 inches of rock down to the soil and found all the soil was SATURATED, soaking wet! Easily all the way down to the roots. It was a wet mud. ==>> sorry gotta yell... HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I ASKED YOU TO QUIT GUESSING .... AND GO OUT THERE AND DIG A HOLE.. CRIMMINEY ... if its that wet.. you can probably NOT WATER for a week or two.. and not have a single problem .. on anything but sand.. you most likely would have been killing trees by now .. DO NOT WATER AGAIN.. until the soil at 3 to 6 inches.. ACTUALLY DRIES.. DIG HOLES AND FIND OUT HOW IT ALL WORKS IN YOUR SOIL ... i am sooo angry .. you ask our help.. and then blow off all we say.. and then mysteriously find out we were right ... and you justt keep plugging away doing the same thing.. if i had anything better to do.. than to help you.. i wouldnt bother anymore.. you are severiously [new word there] over-watering your babes ... you have defaulted to a schedule.. and watering is an art ... stop watering on a schedule.. and find out what is going on ... become a watering artist .. not a slave to the schedule ... ken ps: i am not that mad.. i am just trying to make you.. GO DIG SOME HOLES.. and FIND OUT WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON OUT THERE ... continued luck.. as you will need it ... pps: my sand looks droughted dry.. 20 minutes after i water for 6 hours .. at 3 inches.. it stays damp for 3 to 5 days ... and guess why i know that.. i dig holes ... because that is how i learned to use my drip tape irrigation .... i dug holes.. between the emitters.. and learned to run the water.. until the water met in the middle ... and that is how long to run it .. and then i dug more holes.. to find find out when it was time to run it again .. lots of small 6 inch holes with a hand trowel .... |
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- Posted by ilovemytrees 6a Western NY (My Page) on Sat, Jul 7, 12 at 20:57
| Ken, Wth is your problem? You said ............> "i am sooo angry .. you ask our help.. and then blow off all we say.. and then mysteriously find out we were right ... and you justt keep plugging away doing the same thing.. if i had anything better to do.. than to help you.. i wouldnt bother anymore.. " What part of me saying I cut down my watering times by 66% did you not get? What part of my reducing my output of flow from full throttle to the low pressure did you not get? What part of my cutting down my watering days from every other day to 1, or at the most 2 times a week did you not get? My job is not to do things EXACTLY as YOU do them. My job is to learn from everyone on here and see how I can apply their expertise in the best way I know how. I came on here and thanked everyone and said how I would now be doing things different, and yet you come on here and go on a tirade, that frankly, was NOT deserved, and for what reason? Your ego? Because what else could it be? The fact that you could go off like that, on a thread that has been friendly, helpful and educational, says nothing about me and says everything about YOU. I am literally appalled at you. If you don't want to answer my posts anymore then don't. If this is how you are going to act, then honestly, I hope you don't. |
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| Well, actually there is something called a cone of depression (of the water level) around a well when water is pumped out. Adjoining wells can certainly be affected, especially if cones of depression intersect. If a nearby well's depth is shallower than the cone of depression you cause by use, the other well will essentially 'go dry' until the ground water recharges. Remember studying it in geology and C.E. classes. Found a link you might like to read, as should anyone else who lives on well water sources. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Cones of depression
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