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treebird101

Growing Hickory and Hican for Nut Production

treebird101
10 years ago

I wanted to open up a thread here for people interested in growing Hickory and Hicans for nut production. I feel that many nut enthusiast may be uniformed about Hickory nut production and their pecan hybrid cousin, the hican. I want to open this up as a topical discussion that others can glean from and hopefully want to gear up to graft and grow these delicious outdoor edibles that are in my opinion the best tasting nuts. Feel free to ask questions and yes there are selective cultivars that are far more superior to what you may find in the wild. Hickory and Hicans have been in cultivation for near 100 years but somewhere over the span of time their cultivation has been dwindling by a thread. Here's a picture of some different cultivars.

Comments (162)

  • devonhubb
    10 years ago

    This has been an interesting read. ....

    I successfully grafted some young pecan trees early this year to Kanza, Lakota & Lipan. Now I am smitten with the grafting bug.

    I would like to add a Hican to my small orchard this next grafting season.

    Thanks all........

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Does anyone have any additional info on the Hershey hican? Any chance it was originated by John W. Hershey? The attached photo is from a local hican growing in southeast PA that I suspect to be a Hershey. I would appreciate any info anyone can provide on the Hershey and/or opinions on what variety this one might be. Nuts are quite tasty, and I would not categorize the tree as a shy bearer, though I don't have much experience with hickory/hican/pecans... Ripe nuts began falling 10/10 this year, though the tree is in a cooler microclimate - other trees in this same planting drop nuts about 1 week later than similar trees in the valley, so the "valley" ripe date for this tree here in the Kennett Square PA area would be approx. 10/3 this year. BTW, bark on this tree looks more like white ash than like any kind of hickory or pecan I'm familiar with...

    -Pete
    Kennett Square, PA

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    That's very interesting Pete. I might be getting a sample of Hershey from a guy I know who has it grafted, then we can maybe compare to see if it is the same nut. You might just have a new discovery. I cant seem to find any info on the Hershey hican but maybe the USDA website might have some.

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Thanks Treebird - I'm sure it's not something new as it came from an old grove that was planted by a nurseryman.

    Here's the second hican I'd like to identify (I haven't spent any time trying on this one yet). The nutmeat is sweet, but the brown "skin" on the nutmeat seems to have some astringency to it so I wonder if it may be a bitternut cross...

  • lucky_p
    10 years ago

    T,
    As thin as the shell on that one is, it could be a bitcan. Been years since I saw an Abbott nut, but it looked sort of like those - more pecan character than hickory. I have an Abbott seedling growing here, but it's never done much. No vigor. Has terminal buds that look like bitternut - but Pleas bitcan doesn't really reveal its bitternut heritage, except in the appearance of the nut - and undesirable astringency most years.

    Hershey nuts I've seen are a bit 'plumper' than those in the first set of photos. Oops. Now that I think about it, I was thinking 'Henke', not Hershey.

    This post was edited by lucky_p on Fri, Nov 1, 13 at 10:37

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I would have to agree on the second hican photo that it definitely has bitternut in it. The ridges on the husk and shape and color of the kernel give that away. Plus the nut clearly looks bitternut itself. A bitcan it is but I would have no idea what cultivar if it is, if it is in fact a known cultivar. More pictures Pete! Great job by the way. Hicans are some what of a rarity to people so it is nice to see photos and discussions of what is out there.

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Here is a newly recognized shellbark nut called "LOCK". This thing is a monster! 5 nuts weighed 6 oz.

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Typically these giant shellbarks aren't worth grafting because of the cavity and shell thickness, but there is a lot of kernel going on here and a very open cavity. This is not my discovery but a friend's friend's friend's tree. Take a look : )

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Wow! I've got what I thought was a large-nutted shell in one of my bee yards, but that one puts it to shame! Good name for it for sure - its size and shell thickness might make it useful in a breeding project (are there any hickory breeding projects that exist?). How productive is it and how's its flavor? From my experience, shellbarks have a real nice mild flavor that's just not quite as "nutty" as a shag - though I did collect quite a few of them this year and love them because they crack out cleanly and are significantly larger than the shags I have access to (that the squirrels don't eat first). Keep posting!

    -Pete

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Here's a pic of the large-nutted shellbark from my bee yard for comparison. It's a good tree and reasonably tasty nut. My only complaint is that the shell is quite thick, but with a good nut cracker it cracks out reasonably well (the other half cracked out in pieces so I ate it ;) Unfortunately the owner of the tree plans to cut it down this winter because it hangs over the road and he's afraid it's going to crack a windshield one of these days :(

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    More nuts (pecans, obviously) I'm trying to ID. I'm not entirely sure the bottom four are not the same variety, but I *think* they're two different varieties. The bottom two varieties are earlier, and the top two varieties are about 10 days later. I have a list of nuts presumably grown at the location where these were found - just need to match them up...

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hey Pete, that Shellbark has a thick shell but the rib pattern looks superior. Is there any way you can email me and possibly send me a few of those nuts. You might have a good one there with those two short ribs instead of 4 long protruding ribs. I would like to sample the nuts from your shellbark and pass some on to Fred Blankenship, one of the best authorities on hickory. You can email me through the gardenweb site and I can give you my mailing address. There have been no breeding programs for hickory that I know of. I know that Fred Blankenship has many seedlings of superior cultivars but I'm unaware if any have reached production yet.

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Sorry this took longer than it should have. I was away, then held off until I'd bought some Play Doh to hold the cut halves and sideways nuts in place for the photo ;) Seeing all of these together brings out some interesting points. First, despite its shell being smaller than the others, the original tree's nutmeats are approximately the same size as the two younger trees, both of which have larger shelled nuts. Second, there is a fair bit of difference between the nutmeat shapes. The "Street" nut, which has the largest shelled nut, also has the least convoluted nutmeat. The original tree ("Yard") is second, and the "Shed" tree nutmeats seem to have the most convoluted shape (though not badly so). Note that the cut through the "Street" nut was more toward the top than the other two, so you don't see as much of the convolution in the cross section.

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I would definitely have to say that the "street" nut is the collectable one. Great observations by the way and thanks for taking the time out to share the photos with us. You'll have to get you a Mr. Hickory Nut Cracker from Fred Blankenship. It's the only nut cracker I know of that has the power to bust right through any thick shellbark nut.

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Well... I like black walnut (I've got two 5-gallon pails full of cleaned in-shell Thomas and similar nuts) and have two "serious" nutcrackers that easily do the job. One is a locally made cracker that I bought at a friend's Amish produce stand, and the other is an antique. Both are made to crack black walnuts, but work well with other less formidable nuts as well, though the "Street" hickory ranks right up there next to black walnut protection-wise! ;)

  • scottokla
    10 years ago

    Nothing comes to mind immediately for the pecans shown. They look like a hundred natives that I have. If you can put a list up of ones that are on the property I might be able to come up with something. Also, where is the property located and what was the approximate maturity date of the earlier two?

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Thanks Scott. Pecans known to have been grown on the property at one time or another are: Busseron, Green River, Indiana, Posey. Burton is also listed but I question whether this variety is actually a hican. Shuck split on the "early" nuts this year at a valley location near Kennett Square PA was 10/11, which was right around the same time the black walnuts in the same area had dropped the majority of their nuts. The later nuts in the top row split shuck about a week later, maybe a little more.

  • lucky_p
    10 years ago

    pxb,
    The USDA Pecan Breeding & Genetics website has an alphabetical list of pecan cultivars, with descriptions, and photos of a lot of 'em. May help narrow the field.
    Also, KSU has a 'northern pecan pictorial' pdf file - google it; it may help.

    Oh, by the way, I did get one graft of your 'wild pear' going this spring.

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Thanks, Lucky, for the pecan info. Unfortunately the USDA site is down for a redesign - hopefully it comes back up soon. But the KSU sheet is nifty even though it doesn't cover all the nuts in my list - thanks for the helpful info! Glad to hear you got a "take" on one of the pear scions. I haven't stopped by the parent tree yet this fall - may have to drop by this weekend and pick up some rock hard pears. Maybe I'll have a go at cooking some this year and see what I can make of them ;)

    -Pete

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Hey Lucky, I got a box from Fred of your Garnett Nuts he passed on to me. I got cracking on them as soon as I opened the box. Me and my youngest son are really enjoying them. He just started talking a while back and now the word "hickory" is in his vocabulary. I gave him a piece of kernel and when he was finished he kept saying Hickory! Hickory!, which meant he wanted more kernel pieces. Fred was telling me that Garnett only missed one crop in 9 years, that certainly ranks high for reliability and it appears to be self pollinating.

  • lucky_p
    10 years ago

    T,
    I've been gathering from the Garnett tree for at least 12 years now. Has only missed cropping one year - and that was 2007, the year of our Easter Big Freeze Disaster that destroyed virtually all fruit/nut crops, and killed a lot of trees outright.
    It's growing in the middle of a corn/soybean field, so likely benefits from (soil)fertilization that most other hickories are never exposed to.
    I've personally gathered at least 25 5-gallon bucketsful of nuts(most still in the husk) from it this year - and there's still a bunch on the ground underneath it.

  • gardener365
    10 years ago

    T,

    I'd like scions of Lake Icaria. I was chatting with Lucky and he said they're very delicious. I believe he said sweet tasting unlike any shagbark he had ever tried Also said the kernel was light colored. Just as you said... This is a great thread. Thank you for the information + photos.

    Ate my first hickory yesterday. A shagbark. Was reminiscent of pecan though bland. Cracked it with my vice and went to work. It was from a native at a local forest preserve.

    I have to say I'm getting the bug big-time.

    Dax

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Lucky, I wish i was a little closer to the tree so I could help clean up underneath it, lol. Dax, Lake Icaria is by far the best tasting shag I have ever eaten second would have to be Porter. Mr. Fred Blankenship says that finding a good hickory is one in a million. Here is a display box library of mine that is near completion. All this one needs is Retzer and Yoder but I should have those coming within a week or so. I'm also getting ready to start another.

  • scottokla
    10 years ago

    The top right pecan could be Posey. I have some with me now and there are a lot of similarities. I also have some Green River nuts harvested last week but I don't have them available to look at. From my memory I don't think they match any of your 4.

    I personally have found it difficult to match my pecans to the USDA site, but Wes Rice's book and the KSU images are much easier to compare.

  • scottokla
    10 years ago

    I forgot to also mention that Posey reached 50% shucksplit about the end of September for me and Green River was a week or more later this year here in NE Oklahoma.

    Posey nuts can be mistaken for a lot of other varieties, but when still in a green shuck they are very unique and easy to identify. Thick, giant shucks with "wings" that reach far out. Plus, they have zero scab here. Green River also has zero scab here.

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Since there's been some interest in the "Street" shellbark I posted photos of a few days ago, I thought I'd crack a few more out for an additional look. Yes, the nutmeat is slightly larger than the "Yard" nuts (the mother tree), but the point that sets it apart most is that the "ears" are nearly flat; they don't have that additional ridge that the other shellbarks I've seen have. But boy does it have a formidable shell (that usually does crack nicely though)!

    If folks here think this tree might be worth saving, let me know and I'll try to talk the owner into waiting til spring to cut down the tree so I can cut and mail out scions. I'll also let him know that some nut aficionados think it's worth saving, and give him an opportunity to name it, since it is his tree.

    -Pete

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Today's find - Bixby (or McAllister) is in shuck split. There are maybe a dozen nuts still hanging on the leafless tree. I'll be lucky if I get 2 or 3 more of them :(

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Great photos Pete! I've never seen a Bixby nut but it does look an awful lot like McAllister.

  • gardener365
    10 years ago

    Killer displays bird. I've swooped up all your pictures. I hope you don't mind. They're an uncommon reference and I don't want to lose this valuable information.

    Pete, what is the flavor like of (Street)? Looking above I see you wrote that (bee tree) has 'reasonably good nut flavor'. Is that the same tree?

    One question guys: it appears that 'James' which I have is a hican, however I bought it as a Pecan from Stark Brothers. Is this a hican or pecan? And if hican how is the species-written?

    Thanks,

    Dax

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Not a problem Dax. That's why I post my research. At one point there wasn't much research around and there still isn't. Pecans became the fast food nut and hickory fell off the train. I guess no one every saw market potential in the nut so it didn't make the hall of fame. But with that said, obviously people overlooked the cultivar diversity and the potential. I forgot the fact that you don't need to use harsh fungicides and pesticides to grow a healthy nut producing tree. I have absolutely nothing wrong with growing pecans. I love pecans and have a few trees here but hickory is off the radar due to commercialism. The average person at the grocery store doesn't even know what a hickory nut is. I've just been very blessed to get in contact with an older generation of hickory enthusiast that have been very friendly and helpful in my research. But being from a younger generation (I'm 29), I'm in the technological era of computers where posting pictures and research and having discussions is very convenient. The majority of the hickory nut enthusiast I know don't even have computers but are very helpful through letters, packages and phone calls. Their lives in this hobby are what make my research valuable, especially since a lot of my research is their research. Dax, I know there is a James pecan but at one point Stark Bros. had a James hican variety that was patented that they sold years back. The nut was originally from Missouri. I was told it is a very productive nut but visually you can clearly tell it is a hican. Here is a James hican photo.

  • gardener365
    10 years ago

    Found this Shagbark at a golf course in Rock Island Co. IL. It's a 70'+ tall tree. I came home with three nuts. I was a month late a local forester told me for collecting hickories.
    {{gwi:395561}}

    It's now obvious to me the shell on the good cultivars is thin. When I look at the core of this nut from this tree, I clearly see how thick the shell is. Is this the typical shagbark core, or is there much variation and one never knows to what extent?
    {{gwi:395562}}

    Dax

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Yeah Treebird, that is a great display. Where did you get all of the different varieties, and how did you get the cutaways so clean?

    Dax, I'm afraid I don't have much experience tasting hickories - this is the first year I have more than a few to taste. The three shellbarks from my bee yard all have similar flavor - very mild, but with a light sweetness and nuttiness. Very easy to eat out of hand and my GF likes them in banana nut bread because they're nice and mild (she can't stand black walnut, which I love). I've tasted them against the shagbarks I collected this year and there's not a whole lot of flavor difference. The street/yard/shed nuts all have a slightly lighter flavor and maybe a little less "creaminess," though not a whole lot, and I don't know if it's because my shagbarks aren't that great, or if my shellbarks are!

  • pxbacher
    10 years ago

    Dax - I have shag nuts from 6 or 7 different trees, some of which I believe are selections for their nuts (vs. for their tree form/foliage). I'll cut them open this weekend or early next week and post photos. The nuts themselves are very different in size and shape, and I suspect also in shell thickness.

    Slightly off-topic, but has anyone on this thread made hickory syrup? You make it from the bark, not the sap. I made a bunch last fall, roughly following the instructions here: http://goo.gl/eSjQtZ. It's DELICIOUS! The one trick if you decide to make it is be sure you toast the chips enough (but don't burn them), else you don't get a smokey enough flavor.

    -Pete

    Here is a link that might be useful: Syrup Recipe

    This post was edited by pxbacher on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 13:06

  • gardener365
    10 years ago

    Thanks for that photo, treebird. My tree is only 5 years in the ground. I'll await. Stark Bros. at the same time sold to me a seedling as the pollinator for "James" of 'Missourri Mammoth Hickory Nut' which I'm well aware now is a Carya laciniosa.

    I've since learned that good pecan pollination occurs with more than (1) seedling. "Lucky" schooled me on that some time ago. It's not misleading that Stark Brothers is saying the Missouri Mammoth Hickory is a good pollinator however, 10 or more trees will make better pollinators due to time of flowering. I may get lucky, it's not likely though.

    Pete, treebird and Frank should evaluate the taste of (Street) since it cracks easily and has a well shaped cavity. It didn't take me long as a rookie to taste the bitterness & blandness of the golf shagbark nut. It tasted non-creamy and left an astringent aftertaste. 1 in a million I guess as treebird stated.......that's why Lake Icaria is on my now list.

    Cheers,

    Dax

  • lucky_p
    10 years ago

    pete,
    I've been making hickory syrup for years, using the nutshells left over after I crack and pick out the nutmeats. Usually throw in a few husks as well - but I don't roast anything.
    Just boil the nutshell fragments all day, then strain, add 1.5 cups sugar per cup of 'hickory liquor', cook it down another couple of hours, then ladle into canning jars.
    Coworker here makes it using strips of bark peeled off the trees - but she cooks her bark & husks in the crockpot.

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Pete my nuts are from several sources of hickory enthusiast. I will soon have that display box completed and then also another completed within the next few weeks then you all will get a view of almost everything that is out there in a side by side comparison. I thank these enthusiast greatly including you lucky for you contributions of Garnett and Sinking Fork. Maybe we can get this Morris#1 in the next box. I am getting a hican display box ready too, which will be nice but I wont have the nuts sawn in half for display. With the packing material in hicans what does it matter anyway. As for the hickory nut preparation, I saw all my nuts in half with a hack saw and then pick the nut meat out with some pick tools. What ever pieces might be left within the shell, I just blow out with my air hose. This makes the cavity interior nice and visible.

  • treebird101
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Just wanted to show you guys a nut and cross section of a shagbark selection called "Pilot". The shell is too thin to crack out with a Mr. Hickory Nutcracker but a regular hand pecan cracker works great. My only critique about this nut is that the tip of the ribs turn broad instead of a continual narrow taper. But all in all I rate this nut high. If you are interested in wood from this cultivar, I would get in touch with Clifford England from England's Orchard and Nursery.

  • gardener365
    10 years ago

    I spoke with a gentleman who is the president of the Iowa Nut Growers Association, Gary Fernald, and he's taking me on his wing to show me where the native shellbark, pecan, hican, & shagbarks are in the Mercer Co. & surrounding counties/areas of IL (and IA) are located.

    Gary read this thread and said he was surprised his favorite shellbark, 'Selbhers' from George McDaniels Farm (IL) hasn't been mentioned. It's at Nebraska's 'trial' 'farm'. It's also in his collection.

    Since the 70's he's named (2) pecans, 'Canton' & 'Mullahy'. He may join GW to comment on this thread, or, he's going to email cross section photos of 'Selbher' that I'll post. I don't recall at the moment if his pecan selections are in this thread, if not, I'll ask for those or he'll post photos his-self.

    I'd like Gary to pop in but he said in some (populated) areas of forest where 'you cannot walk five feet without stepping on shellbark nuts', there are potentials looming in these areas that should be considered for propagation. There's work to do, nuts to saw, etc-

    Dax

    continued discussion:
    Growing Hickory and Hican for Nut Production (2)

    This post was edited by gardener365 on Sun, Dec 8, 13 at 19:34

  • edwinkraus
    8 years ago

    I'm new here, I've recently taken over my grandfathers property he passed 20 years ago and none of his trees were kept up with. I found what I believe is a English walnut?? It would have been planted 40 years ago. I'm in upstate PA. This tree was almost completely hidden in 25 year old weed trees and 6 foot thorns. It took a full summer to free it and the surrounding area.


    My questions:

    -is it an English walnut?

    -What pollinator should I purchase

    -can I graft this 40 year old tree year old stock into black walnut root stock it grows wild here like weeds


    any tips or trick are helpful now that I've freed this monster I want to unlock it's potential




  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    The town I happen to live in is at the very northern limit of hickories generally. Yet we're well-stocked with shagbarks, shellbarks, and bitternuts. I have no real info to add to this in-depth discussion, except to say I agree with the main points-that this group of trees is both a source of some very fine food, and that these same trees have remarkable aesthetic assets. BTW, in some of our old parks in town, there are legacy oaks and hickories. Also at these same sites, some of the grounds are rather poorly drained. Lots of puddles after almost any amount of rain. Yet the hickories in particular-these are all shagbarks-seem to do just fine. Is that the general case would you say?

    +oM


    ps...oh yeah, one other thing: If ever your area is subject to gypsy moth invasion, it just might amaze you the number of these insect's eggs that end up being deposited under the bark flaps of shagbark hickory! We're well past that initial invasion, when numbers were high, so it doesn't really apply these days. But when the moth first got here, it was normal for arborists in aerial lifts to have to darn-near strip all the outer bark off the hickories to get at the egg masses with oil. And really, the larvae don't do much, if any feeding in the hickories themselves. But their moms can't help taking advantage of that bark.

  • lucky_p
    8 years ago

    edwin,

    Yes, that is Juglans regia, often incorrectly called 'English' walnut... but more appropriately, Persian or Carpathian walnut .

    As to what variety would be the best pollenizer... I have no clue.

    You certainly can graft/bud onto black walnut understock... that's how most are propagated. Lots of how-to info out there on the 'net - just search for 'grafting walnuts'

  • fusion_power
    8 years ago

    Hansen and Allegheny are the best choices for pollenizers. There is no way to tell for sure what your tree needs, so best to plant a couple of good pollen sources.


    http://nolinnursery.com/Persian.htm

  • rcurtis24
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago


    Hey treebird101 i can give you all the info on the "LOCK" shellbark if it is one that you got from Fredblankenship or Tyler Halvin i am a friend of the man that has the tree in his yard. Tree is in zone 6A in Southeast, KS rcurtis24 This nut was weighed yesterday from my samples I havn't talked to Dick this year to see if it had nuts will call him today if you want samples of the nut email me at rcurtis@wavewls.com with your address.

  • chris guess
    6 years ago

  • chris guess
    6 years ago

    if your wanting to eat them, you get a little more with each crack with these

  • Vojtěch Slavětinský
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hello treebird101

    I am interested in the exchange of cutting. I am looking for varieties carya ovata, carya laciniosa, hican.

    I offer a variety exchange

    Thank you for answer


  • Никита Шугаев
    4 years ago

    who can sell me hican seeds or varietal shagbark?

  • Jason Barton
    3 years ago

    Go on Facebook and look up hickory and hican association


  • Vojtěch Slavětinský
    2 years ago

    Hello

    i am buying all variet carya,juglans,Castanea and hybrid SEEDS FRESH FROM AUTUMN 2021


    from these please.Thank you for offer please

  • Vojtěch Slavětinský
    2 years ago

    Hello

    i am buying all variet carya,juglans,Castanea and hybrid SEEDS FRESH FROM AUTUMN 2021


    from these please.Thank you for offer please